reefs should not have been banned

[wolfgang]

sounds like a tough job you mods volunteer time for. (dang ended with a preposition)

[ZephyrusX]

I was thinking earlier that it is interesting how these threads always focus upon the actions of the moderators. I guess it is the desire for transparency. But why is there rarely focus upon the decisions that so-and-so banned member made?

Just out of curiosity, would the mods allow a banned member to return after a year?

Originally Posted by cacheborn

I am getting a little fed up of these discussions which always seem to portray Mods vs rest of us attitude.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by ChristsLight

My feeling is that he styled his dialogue according to the member(s) he was speaking with, and such was his argument in these post.

Precisely. It was quite obviously a two way street from here with more than just a few jabs from both sides. Nothing out of hand or even out of place. Merely the only way clarity could be had over a discussion lost in intellectualizing.

It's merely more obvious when someones style of writing is one or two sentences as opposed to 8 paragraphs with veiled insults inserted within in cryptic language.

[cacheborn]

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

I was thinking earlier that it is interesting how these threads always focus upon the actions of the moderators. I guess it is the desire for transparency. But why is there rarely focus upon the decisions that so-and-so banned member made?

Just out of curiosity, would the mods allow a banned member to return after a year?

I am not sure why that happens. One important thing is members do not see the warnings and the way the member replies to the warnings. When someone replies that I am not going to follow the rules, you have to decide how much time you want to spend.

Mods cannot unban a member, only Steve can do that.

[James81]

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

And what are you going to do if that person gets caught up in his/her posting time and time again? Keep banning them for a couple of days? Excuse my choice of language, but should moderators be baby sitters? Isn't this a personal development forum? And what about the disruption this would cause in between their 'unruly' behaviour, the moderator/s spotting the behaviour, and the mods enforcing a temp ban? What about the moderators time we eat up?

I do understand what you are saying. The last time I was warned, I basically flipped out on someone who said something that I found really offensive. I calmed down after leaving for a bit. I really don't expect moderators to enforce 'breathing periods' upon me for my own convenience, however. It is really my own responsibility to behave in a way that is appropriate for this community. That means walking away from threads that bug me.

I already outlined a plan for dealing with temp bans.

1st ban is for a week.
2nd ban for a month.
3rd ban would be indefinite.

I say "indefinite" and not "permanent" because I do not believe in permabans on forums. I think that people change over time and that there is literally no harm in giving someone another shot after they've been banned for a year or two.

But even if you disagree with that sentiment, ban 3 could be the permaban.

Originally Posted by cacheborn

I am getting a little fed up of these discussions which always seem to portray Mods vs rest of us attitude. Also, many people do not take into account how much other work Mods have to do in order to keep the forum running smoothly. And for a high traffic forum such as this one, sometimes things can get really crazy.

I've run my own forums before and was a moderator on another forum after that. I know what it's like. It can be a lot of work to mod. Just because we may disagree with something you do as a moderator, or a rule or anything like that, does not mean that we are against you (or feel like the mods are uber cyber bullies).

To disagree with a decision or decisions you've made is not a personal thing.

[Irisha]

Originally Posted by Criseyde

Irisha, would you be happy if I mocked you and made snide remarks about your opinions and participation in this thread?

Even if it sounded insulting I wouldn't take it sooooo serious. I think it's a shame to llllove myself so much as to see me as a so much important person who cannot be teased sometimes. I would ask you about your reasons and discuss it with understanding that I have done something inappropriate, or fake if my posting has caused mocking at me. I would discuss it first with the one who disliked what I write. Aren't we mature adult people? Or are we kids at school playing this game with points?

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

Precisely. It was quite obviously a two way street from here with more than just a few jabs from both sides. Nothing out of hand or even out of place. Merely the only way clarity could be had over a discussion lost in intellectualizing.

And he didn't report you?

[cacheborn]

Originally Posted by James81

I've run my own forums before and was a moderator on another forum after that. I know what it's like. It can be a lot of work to mod. Just because we may disagree with something you do as a moderator, or a rule or anything like that, does not mean that we are against you (or feel like the mods are uber cyber bullies).

To disagree with a decision or decisions you've made is not a personal thing.

Thanks for understanding.

[Criseyde]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

He didn't actually say "you are a clown" directly at someone and it seemed like a general comment for how some posts are just joking around instead of being able to discuss something.


It almost seems like a misunderstanding. That pushed reefs into fed up land. But I was not around a lot, like mods have to be, and haven't been glued to threads to know the complete context.

I don't know about that. Reefs has enough of a history of discrediting his opponent with ad hominem stuff that it might not matter.

Originally Posted by Irisha

Even if it sounded insulting I wouldn't take it sooooo serious. I think it's a shame to llllove myself so much as to see me as a so much important person who cannot be teased sometimes. I would ask you about your reasons and discussed it with understanding that I have done something inappropriate, or fake if my posting has caused mocking at me. I would discuss it first with the one who disliked what I write. Aren't we mature adult people? Or are we kids at school playing this game with points?

First of all, I can assure you that rep points didn't factor into this decision. I hadn't even looked at Reefs's rep, or the rep he was giving out to others. Although, if he was giving a lot of negative rep, and I had known about it, I wouldn't have liked that either.

Secondly, I'm glad that you have a thick skin about that kind of thing. But I've noticed something about teasing and mocking. Imagine it like a spectrum, from "it's not acceptable at all" on the left to "anything goes" on the right. Very few people fall at either of those extremes; most fall somewhere in the middle. But wherever you are, the people to the left of you seem too sensitive, and the people to the right of you seem too mean. I think that's what's happening in this thread, actually: a lot of the people who wanted to see Reefs stay are more to the right, whereas the forum guidelines are more to the left.

Basically, what's been happening is that the people to the left are staying out of the discussions because they don't want to get caught in that kind of crossfire. That's not really fair, because we have prolific posters who want to get into every thread in the Spirituality forum. So if you are over to the left, you just can't post if you don't want to deal with being mocked. That's not the kind of environment we're going for.

[ZephyrusX]

I see. I don't think a person would change very much after a week or even a month. May be after half a year, a year or at least several years. But then, I suspect the member would have moved on with his/her life.

Originally Posted by James81

1st ban is for a week.
2nd ban for a month.
3rd ban would be indefinite.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

And he didn't report you?

Huh? I mean from my vantage point. Not my own interactions.

[Criseyde]

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

Just out of curiosity, would the mods allow a banned member to return after a year?

Steve has been pretty adamant that a ban is permanent.

[James81]

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

I see. I don't think a person would change very much after a week or even a month. May be after half a year, a year or at least several years. But then, I suspect the member would have moved on with his/her life.

You might be surprised at what a consequence can do (rather than just a warning in PMs). People respond to things that affect them. I've actually seen this same priciple played out in real life in the classroom. There were some students who, no matter how much I warned them, they just didn't get the picture. But the moment I would throw them out of the classroom they would straighten up and wouldn't be a problem again.

I actually think this system works better than the one you have here (probably why all other forums on the internet use it ) because some people need to feel a boundary.

[cacheborn]

Rep points are never a criterion in Mod discussions.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by James81

You might be surprised at what a consequence can do (rather than just a warning in PMs). People respond to things that affect them. I've actually seen this same priciple played out in real life in the classroom. There were some students who, no matter how much I warned them, they just didn't get the picture. But the moment I would throw them out of the classroom they would straighten up and wouldn't be a problem again.

I actually think this system works better than the one you have here (probably why all other forums on the internet use it ) because some people need to feel a boundary.

Yeah, I agree. Same principle working in a treatment center for teens. Warnings meant a whole lot of nothing.

[Irisha]

I think it is cruel to ban a person for such a ridiculous reason like a little teasing and sarcastic humor.

To be banned is felt awful.

It is cruel to do it with a person for NOTHING. In the citations provided it's completely NOTHING to be banned for. No long speculations on the subject are needed to see that.

[ZephyrusX]

Why do you think your students change their behaviour? This idea is counter-intuitive to me and I don't have any personal experience or access to research that says deterrence makes a meaningful difference.

Originally Posted by James81

You might be surprised at what a consequence can do (rather than just a warning in PMs). People respond to things that affect them. I've actually seen this same priciple played out in real life in the classroom. There were some students who, no matter how much I warned them, they just didn't get the picture. But the moment I would throw them out of the classroom they would straighten up and wouldn't be a problem again.

I actually think this system works better than the one you have here (probably why all other forums on the internet use it ) because some people need to feel a boundary.

[James81]

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

Why do you think your students change their behaviour? This idea is counter-intuitive to me and I don't have any personal experience or access to research that says deterrence makes a meaningful difference.

Check out BF Skinner's stuff on Negative Reinforcement.

[ButterflyWoman]

Originally Posted by Angela

On the ban thingie, I was a moderator during the time the issue of temp bans came up a few times, and I got the sense from what he said to us mods that he had a pretty well-considered opinion on it.

Just for general information, the temporary ban question came up again quite recently in the mod forums (just in the last couple of months). It's something that is occasionally revisited and debated. (And Steve is still holding the same position, for what it's worth.)

[ButterflyWoman]

Originally Posted by Irisha

I think it is cruel to ban a person for such a ridiculous reason like a little teasing and sarcastic humor.

If that were a bannable offence, half the forum, including many of the mods, would be gone by now.

It is clear that you really don't understand the process of debate that goes on in the mod forums. You also have no idea what sort of evidence there was/is in this or any other case, because you're only going on what you, personally, have seen on the "forum side".

There is a great deal of debate and discussion prior to a decision of this sort, and a lot of things are taken into account, most of which are not easily discernible by a member who is not privy to the mod forum. How many times have members reported this user's posts? Have there been other complaints by members? How many warnings was the person given (public as well as private)? Have they responded to warnings? Are they likely to make the effort to follow the rules? There are plenty of considerations (and, as mentioned by other mods, rep points count for diddly squat in this discussion), and every situation is discussed on its own merit and in its own context. (And, obviously, mods are not at liberty to share these discussion and warnings and reported posts with the members at large, so there's a lot that goes on that the forum membership simply can not see.)

No established member is banned without discussion (only obvious spammers get that kind of treatment). Even newer members who are engaging in what looks like trollish posting get the benefit of the doubt and a discussion.

The mods on this board are definitely not "ban happy". Rather the opposite (unless you're a spammer, and even then sometimes suspected spammers elicit discussion as to whether they really are spammers!).

We don't just drag people to the metaphorical guillotine of banishment and behead them based on frivolous or capricious whim. I'm sorry that you seem to think that's how it works. I hope that the majority of members don't share your poor opinion of the moderation team. That would be very discouraging, to say the least.

[Midnite]

This thread is now closed due to Mod review.