sexism in the forums

[madgeylou]

i come and go here at the pavlina forums, and the biggest reason why is the blatant sexism of so many of the posters here.

i do realize that there are a lot of adolescent or just-barely-post-adolescent males into personal development, and i know that personal development adherents and pickup artists have a large overlap, especially online. and pickup artists, well, let's just say they are not known for their progressive views on relationships between the genders.

still, i find it incredibly disheartening to read so many young men discussing women as though we are nothing more than vehicles to proving their own personal power. like we are obstacles to be overcome in the journey to ultimate man-ness.

just to be clear, i do no pick up this tone in steve's posts and certainly not in erin's.

anyone else feel this way, or am i the only disgruntled feminist who sometimes feels as though visiting these forums is like stepping gingerly through a minefield of ignorant gender stereotyping? one false step and BOOM! suddenly i'm nothing more than a girl for someone to practice picking up girls on.

[Angela]

Madgeylou, with everything going on around here, you are concentrating on sexism? If anything, I get the impression that many males around here are (to paraphrase your post) stepping gingerly through the minefield of political incorrectness. Some of the 'pick up artists' have shown remarkable sensitivity to manifesting the best outcome for all, I think; many of them have led me to new ways of thinking about man/woman relationships, despite my initial repulsion to some of the concepts.

If you see a particular post that you find offensive, please report that post. Steve, Erin, and the moderators are extremely careful to warn rule-breakers and ban them if necessary. There is a real, constant effort to ensure that people feel safe here.

That said, is it possible that there's something going on for you that has brought this issue to the forefront of your consciousness? What would it take for you to feel safe, or at least regruntled?

lots of love
Angela

[Erki]

Hey, I'm 19 year old male, so I guess that makes me an adolescent too... and I guess it's fair to say that I have "progressive views on relationships between the genders" as I find myself having different views on the subject.

PS: should I make a similar thread about ageism?

[madgeylou]

hi angela, thanks for your response.

it's not so much a specific example of "this person used sexist language" and it's not that i feel unsafe.

it's more the attitude that girls/women are separate from the poster ... this is possibly related to the fact that young men often idolize/fear women and the control they perceive us to have over them via sex.

for example, i continually see picking up a girl referenced as evidence of one's personal effectiveness. i see references to how much girls like it when you dominate them (though they will never admit it). i see statements like "my friend is really overemotional, even for a girl."

in many posts, the underlying message is that connecting with a woman (aka, another human being) is something that can be achieved via following a checklist of behaviors that girls respond to, and that achieving the result of picking up a girl is something akin to passing an exam.

i admit freely that i am focusing on the negative in this post, because what i have seen is built into the fabric of the thought processes of several posters, not explicitly stated but implicitly there in the language of us/them used by these posters. and i feel this needs to be pointed out.

my goal is not political correctness. that's nothing more than people skittishly skirting around what they really believe. what i'm troubled by is what many posters actually seem to believe! and, of course, the impact that has on me and the lovely world we all share.

i should definitely say that i have seen several beautiful examples of male/female interactions in these forums as well. and maybe i just need to pick my threads more carefully. this is just something that i have noticed over the time i've been here that i felt should be pointed out in hopes that it might spark new thoughts in the minds of folks whose existing thoughts simultaneously dismiss and fetishize 51% of the population.

again, thanks for reading and caring.

[madgeylou]

Originally Posted by Erki

Hey, I'm 19 year old male, so I guess that makes me an adolescent too... and I guess it's fair to say that I have "progressive views on relationships between the genders" as I find myself having different views on the subject.

PS: should I make a similar thread about ageism?

i see your smiley so i know youre not *entirely* serious, but never did i say that all young men have not so progressive views. it's not even a majority of posters on this site. but it's a noticeable enough minority that i wanted to bring it up for discussion.

[Susie]

Hi Madgeylou,
I just want to say I relate to your post. The whole pick-up artist phenom on this message board is rather bizarre and off-putting to me, too. It is very objectifying as well as, yes, very immature. Sometimes I take it with a sense of humor, but you're right, it is sexist. I don't have much to add other than to say I back you up on it.

[madgeylou]

thanks susie.

i am not usually one to cry "sexism." honestly. it's typically among the last concerns on my list, i guess because i dont experience much of it in my everyday life.

i've just been completely WOWED by some recent examples.

and again my point is not to make people tiptoe around when they speak.

i really just hope that the idea of seeing women as PEOPLE and not personal development tools takes hold in some readers.

[Erki]

Originally Posted by madgeylou

i see your smiley so i know youre not *entirely* serious, but never did i say that all young men have not so progressive views. it's not even a majority of posters on this site. but it's a noticeable enough minority that i wanted to bring it up for discussion.

I was joking.

It very much is noticeable, and has made me often think of how should I be that I'm a man or so... I don't know if you understand what I mean though...sometimes I find it hard to put my feelings and thoughts into words - need more practice I guess.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by madgeylou

what i'm troubled by is what many posters actually seem to believe! and, of course, the impact that has on me and the lovely world we all share.

I understand that you are troubled by the fact that other people have beliefs that are very different from yours, and you feel those beliefs can impact negatively on you and our world.

What is your aim in starting this thread? Would you like to change minds, or introduce new awareness, or have the people who believe differently go away? What difference would you like to make in this regard? The reason I ask is that I suspect that you're up to making a big positive difference in the world, and using words like "blatant sexism" -- such a hot phrase! -- is likely to incur a lot of defensiveness, which I'm betting could get in the way of real understanding.

So, Madgeylou, what would you like to create?

[Brutha]

Originally Posted by madgeylou

i do realize that there are a lot of adolescent or just-barely-post-adolescent males into personal development, and i know that personal development adherents and pickup artists have a large overlap, especially online. and pickup artists, well, let's just say they are not known for their progressive views on relationships between the genders.

The young have per definition progressive views.

Just because you are older and have different views doesn't mean that your views are progressive.

They might have been progressive when you were young, but when you are old and the young have different views, the views of the young are progressive.
The old don't progress much.

When someone young challenges your old moral code, he is progressive.
Defending an old moral code against the young is the traditional side, not the progressive one.

i really just hope that the idea of seeing women as PEOPLE

You have to keep in mind that you argue in an forum where the existence of other people is not a given.

A lot of Steve subjective reality talk resolves around seeing challenges in relationships to other people as obstacles that you have to overcome.

You have to be able to go into a thought system without judging it, to start to discuss it. Then you have to argue from inside the system, that the system has faults or leads to behavior you consider bad.

People who take Steves concept of responsibilty and use it in their own model of the world find it immoral to give responsibilties to "victims".
But to be able to really criticise a system you have to step into it.

It is very easy to feel offended by the different worldviews in this forum, if you want to.

[madgeylou]

Originally Posted by Brutha

The young have per definition progressive views.

Just because you are older and have different views doesn't mean that your views are progressive.

They might have been progressive when you were young, but when you are old and the young have different views, the views of the young are progressive.
The old don't progress much.

When someone young challenges your old moral code, he is progressive.
Defending an old moral code against the young is the traditional side, not the progressive one.

You have to keep in mind that you argue in an forum where the existence of other people is not a given.

A lot of Steve subjective reality talk resolves around seeing challenges in relationships to other people as obstacles that you have to overcome.

You have to be able to go into a thought system without judging it, to start to discuss it. Then you have to argue from inside the system, that the system has faults or leads to behavior you consider bad.

People who take Steves concept of responsibilty and use it in their own model of the world find it immoral to give responsibilties to "victims".
But to be able to really criticise a system you have to step into it.

It is very easy to feel offended by the different worldviews in this forum, if you want to.

some random responses to what you're written...

regarding what is and is not progressive, no matter if you couch it in terms of progress or regress, men seeing women as objects is not acceptable.

regarding being inside a thought system before you can judge it ... women are raised STEEPED in a sexist thought system. i definitely understand that thought system, from the inside out.

regarding seeing myself as a victim ... that is not what is going on here. i am disheartened, not victimized or necessarily even offended, by some of the posts i read here. there's a difference.

i guess i just feel sad because i thought, since it's 2007 and all, maybe the collective unconscious had come a little further.

[madgeylou]

Originally Posted by Angela

I understand that you are troubled by the fact that other people have beliefs that are very different from yours, and you feel those beliefs can impact negatively on you and our world.

What is your aim in starting this thread? Would you like to change minds, or introduce new awareness, or have the people who believe differently go away? What difference would you like to make in this regard? The reason I ask is that I suspect that you're up to making a big positive difference in the world, and using words like "blatant sexism" -- such a hot phrase! -- is likely to incur a lot of defensiveness, which I'm betting could get in the way of real understanding.

So, Madgeylou, what would you like to create?

you're right about my language possibly sparking defensiveness. and i should have probably worded my concerns more carefully so that wouldnt happen.

part of my point in starting this thread was to point out what i see, and ask if i am the only one who sees it.

another reason i started it was to have exactly the kind of discussion we are having now.

what i would like to create is a strong sense of empathy between men and women, so that they both feel free to engage with each other as equals, not as muse/artist, or pursuer/pursuee, or i/thou.

my post was an emotional reaction to a striking lack of that empathy in several threads and i can see, in large part due to your loving questions, angela, that my approach was definitely not the best way to turn that around.

but i hope that people can see the evolution of this discussion, past my initial anger and into the truth of what i am saying. women are not texts to be studied; we, like men, are mysteries to be engaged.

[Angela]

That reminds me -- did you ever see Shogun? Captain Blackthorne and Lady Somethingorother deeply love one another, but since he's considered to be a barbarian, their love would be punished by death if it were exposed. But the Shogun has assigned the Lady to be Blackthorne's interpreter! So they're constantly together, and forever apart. So tragic.

Their only way of expressing their feelings? They look into each others' eyes and say, "Thou". Sigh. Eternally separate, and eternally one. Double sigh.

Okay, they did bone once.

[mattsonn]

Originally Posted by madgeylou

i guess i just feel sad because i thought, since it's 2007 and all, maybe the collective unconscious had come a little further.

Agreed. I've thought that before too.

[Brutha]

Originally Posted by madgeylou

men seeing women as objects is not acceptable.

I think that people aren't the only ends you can persue in personal development.

Another end might be getting a raise. Every other factor besides "getting a raise" becomes an object in the equation. I might learn persuasive tactis for persuading my boss to give me the raise.

I would make any differance whether those other people that get objects in the equation are male or female.

Now someone and states his problem:
He is XX years old and hadn't had a date jet.
His end or his goal is to get a date. Every other factor becomes an object.

Then you feel offended because he treats the problem the same way he treats the getting-a-raise-problem.
You feel offended because he doesn't make a difference based on gender.
That is how far we have progressed in 2007, such people get labeled sexist, because the use the same approach to both problems and don't use a different approach to the man/female interaction.

regarding seeing myself as a victim ... that is not what is going on here. i am disheartened, not victimized or necessarily even offended, by some of the posts i read here. there's a difference.

I didn't said that. I commented on the subjective/objective reality debate.
When you read Steves a blog post like: http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/page/4/
Explain to me please if you don't think that the death students in this articles are treated as objects.

women are not texts to be studied; we, like men, are mysteries to be engaged.

Freedom of knowledge is one of my key values. Declaring something a mystery that isn't allowed to be analysed is dogmatic thinking.

[JohnPlace]

This thread caught my attention!

Madgeylou, you raise some very interesting points. It is indeed unfortunate whenever one human being objectifies another.

Any man or woman trying to find a mate should remember to be honest, truthful, and genuine. Scoring a partner is not a game, and I agree that people shouldn't be treating it that way, since it's disrespectful and the stakes are too high. People who project honesty and truth will attract partners who project the same. That's not to say that we can't leverage proven techniques to market ourselves to others -- We can. But it is absolutely essential that we use white-hat marketing. Honesty is paramount.

I believe it is common for people of all ages (and both genders) to receive some confirmation of self-worth from their ability to attract a partner, in the same way that they derive self-worth from their ability to attract any of the things they want in life. If a man wants a relationship with a woman, that relationship becomes a goal, and when the goal is accomplished (as in, a satisfying relationship is achieved), the man feels good about himself.

But since we tend to attract what we project, I've always believed that it's important to allow mate attraction to be an organic extension of ourselves. If we turn it into something dishonest, we pay for it in the end. We reap what we sow in so many areas of life -- not just dating. Skillful honesty is the way to go.

[madgeylou]

Originally Posted by Brutha

I think that people aren't the only ends you can persue in personal development.

Another end might be getting a raise. Every other factor besides "getting a raise" becomes an object in the equation. I might learn persuasive tactis for persuading my boss to give me the raise.

I would make any differance whether those other people that get objects in the equation are male or female.

Now someone and states his problem:
He is XX years old and hadn't had a date jet.
His end or his goal is to get a date. Every other factor becomes an object.

but a date is not a raise. a date is a relationship. with a person. that means someone else is involved. a woman is not a brass ring to be grabbed, not a goal to be met.

Then you feel offended because he treats the problem the same way he treats the getting-a-raise-problem.
You feel offended because he doesn't make a difference based on gender.
That is how far we have progressed in 2007, such people get labeled sexist, because the use the same approach to both problems and don't use a different approach to the man/female interaction.

again, you are equating a tangible, empirically trackable, achievable-by-hard-work goal to something that is less like a predictable process and more akin to a snowflake landing on your mitten and staying frozen long enough that you can appreciate it.

do you see the difference? one is something you can make a checklist to get. the other involves another living being deciding to open up to you. do you see the difference yet?

how do you measure success of "getting" a girl? you can say, "i intend to get a 10% pay raise this year" and you can measure that. but when will you consider yourself a success with getting this girl? when she gives you her number? when she goes out with you? when you bang her? when you marry her? when you make her feel special? how do you measure this?

it is impossible, because women are not simply variables in an equation. we are human beings.

I didn't said that. I commented on the subjective/objective reality debate.
When you read Steves a blog post like: http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/page/4/
Explain to me please if you don't think that the death students in this articles are treated as objects.

sorry i misunderstood you. however, even if you are so deep into subjective reality that you think everything in the world is 100% contained within you, i would still argue that objectification is an unprofitable way to look at women. objects are not capable of surprising and delighting us the way subjects are, with all their crazy free will and unpredictabilities.

Freedom of knowledge is one of my key values. Declaring something a mystery that isn't allowed to be analysed is dogmatic thinking.

you are trying to paint with a hammer, my brutha. the tool of analytic thinking does not apply to people. i mean, you can analyze us all you want, but you're never going to figure us out. on some level, we're not *meant* to be figured out, at least not in an analytical way.

and by analyzing and compartmentalizing, you distance yourself from the truer, deeper knowledge that no data can ever tell you, but which is readily accessible in conversation and companionship with another person, whether that person is male or female, friend or lover.

[madgeylou]

Originally Posted by Angela

That reminds me -- did you ever see Shogun? Captain Blackthorne and Lady Somethingorother deeply love one another, but since he's considered to be a barbarian, their love would be punished by death if it were exposed. But the Shogun has assigned the Lady to be Blackthorne's interpreter! So they're constantly together, and forever apart. So tragic.

Their only way of expressing their feelings? They look into each others' eyes and say, "Thou". Sigh. Eternally separate, and eternally one. Double sigh.

Okay, they did bone once.

angela, what a brilliant social artist you are.

i just want to thank you for helping me through this thread. i definitely think i need to watch "shogun."

[Zukin]

Originally Posted by madgeylou

the tool of analytic thinking does not apply to people. i mean, you can analyze us all you want, but you're never going to figure us out. on some level, we're not *meant* to be figured out, at least not in an analytical way.

and by analyzing and compartmentalizing, you distance yourself from the truer, deeper knowledge that no data can ever tell you, but which is readily accessible in conversation and companionship with another person, whether that person is male or female, friend or lover.

If anyone (male or female) can stimulate the release of certain chemicals in another person, they can create love. So love is quantifiable. Of course, disagreeing with you could be my analytical, competitive, aggressive male brain at work

See these links for details:
Biology of Love

Interpersonal Chemistry: Neurochemsitry

[madgeylou]

zukin, you are crackin me up.

i understand that a release of chemicals signals the arrival of love in the human person.

but to state that love = those chemicals is a bit of a reduction, i think. kinda like saying life = eating. sure, things that are alive eat ... but living is not simply eating!