Banned members

[MidasGirl]

Here's one of those "safe" posting stories.

[ChaosKiwi]

Originally Posted by James81

He has to make 15 posts in that arena AND wait 5 days before he can post anywhere else.

By this reckoning, based on my current rate of posting (0.1 posts per day), this would take me 150 days Probably longer if you consider that I rarely even look in the general forum! I only post when I feel I can add something that hasn't already been contributed, or I have a problem/need accountability and have nowhere else to turn.

While I would pay if the entire forum went private, as other people have pointed out, I would not have paid if upon finding this site I found that the forum was pay only.

Originally Posted by Lil Chris

A mod appreciation / donation party would be nice.

Some way to actually make a forum donation might not be a bad idea! The moderators do a great job here. Just go to any other forum on the internet to see what I mean!

[seeker5]

Originally Posted by Rose of Cairo

The actual reason I oppose a private forum is that 1) it creates separation

That's an irrelevant argument. This forum doesn't exist to create unity among people.

[Rose of Cairo]

Originally Posted by seeker5

That's an irrelevant argument. This forum doesn't exist to create unity among people.

Who talked about unity among people? I didn't.

[seeker5]

Originally Posted by Rose of Cairo

Who talked about unity among people? I didn't.

You say you don't want separation. The opposite of separation is unity, or something similar to it. So if you argue against separation, then you're by logic in favor of something like having unity on this forum.

[cinnabar]

Originally Posted by spirit4711

Those are called real life friends .

Wow, spirit4711.. that almost stung. It does raise the idea though, that no forum can be what true, "real-life" friendship is. At the same time, what about the people who don't have such a group for whatever reason... and just need a little personal development power to help them get to that point?

Originally Posted by MidasGirl

I think of it this way, if a person is having say, marital problems, and they want to spill here, and their spouse is a stalker, well then what is to stop that spouse from paying the $20 and being part of the convo?

Good point, MidasGirl. In a situation like that, where someone will go out of their way to spy on someone else, there are no guarantees. Still, having a private forum lessens the chance of many other people stumbling onto you - and possibly feeling exposed themselves, if your situation involves them as well. It's not perfect, but it's better - for some people, anyway.

Originally Posted by Rose of Cairo

When someone wants to talk about very private stuff on an online forum but also wants to hide from certain people, then I see it as a sign that something is being misaligned.

Why is this? When faced with a new development - say a pd issue you weren't aware of before, that happens to affect personal areas of your life - are you instantly ready to tell everyone you know? Maybe you are, but if so, not everyone is automatically so bold as yourself. I see great value in a place where someone can work out the details of their own steps in personal development, without being under the instant scrutiny of people they live and deal with on a daily basis.

If it were so terrible to only want to talk about certain matters with certain people - or certain people aligned with certain values - then the private messaging system would be worthless, or at least allow them to continue in some sort of personal misalignment. I just don't see it that way.

Originally Posted by Angela

I haven't figured it out yet, but I'm getting there...

[YourHumbleNarrator]

Originally Posted by cinnabar

If it were so terrible to only want to talk about certain matters with certain people - or certain people aligned with certain values - then the private messaging system would be worthless, or at least allow them to continue in some sort of personal misalignment. I just don't see it that way.

I agree with that. There are times to bring something out into the open and times to be discreet. It's not entirely about comfort, either. Sometimes it's about the quality of the feedback. Sometimes it's easier to work with someone one-on-one than have to sort through a lot of posts.

However, when you need a good kick in the pants about the only way you're going to get it is by putting yourself on the line. Assuming paying members were of high quality, they still wouldn't hold a candle to a public forum as a public forum requires you to be conscious that anyone might see what you write. That presents a series of obstacles which will force the poster to grow, especially as the internet becomes more integral to day-to-day life. I.E., if what you're saying could get you fired, isn't it time you left your job anyway?

[Michelle]

My observation from reading through is that a few keep throwing out alignment with truth, love and power as an argument to do this or that.

This comes from Steve's book, right?

If you are going to use a formula or system to align with all-that-is-good then at least be complete about it. Intelligence belongs in there, too.

What actions concerning the forum align with TLP and intelligence?

[James81]

Originally Posted by Holistic Star

I think 15 posts is a bit high just to post in the general area and would probably deter genuine people from joining. I also think that anyone bent on being a troll would jump through that hurdle just for the fun of it. It could also create a lot of 'bounce' type posts in the general area so people can get their post rate up, otherwise would mean more mod work determining if something is a 'quality' post or not.

But it would be less of a deterrent than making the forums pay only.

The number of posts could be lower than that, it's the general idea that I'm tossing out there. I would say just make a certain waiting period, but it would be easy for a troll to just sign up a username and just wait it out. Adding the post factor would require that a poster use a little effort before gaining access to the whole site.

[spirit4711]

Originally Posted by cinnabar

Wow, spirit4711.. that almost stung. It does raise the idea though, that no forum can be what true, "real-life" friendship is. At the same time, what about the people who don't have such a group for whatever reason... and just need a little personal development power to help them get to that point?
...

The stinging was not intentional, the raising of that idea was. I myself took a short forum holiday because I noticed I spent time on forums at the expense of my 'real life' relationships. That cost got too high. I´ve found a new balance now and skipped some not essential time wasting activities.

[spirit4711]

Originally Posted by Rose of Cairo

...
When someone wants to talk about very private stuff on an online forum but also wants to hide from certain people, then I see it as a sign that something is being misaligned. Why do they have no problem talking about it with people they don't know, but want to make sure that those they know in real life won't read it? This person (in my eyes) is being incongruent and lacks the courage to be who they truly are in all areas of their life. If you are perfectly comfortable with who you are, why would you need to hide from coworkers or google? Where is the danger? Where is the shame?

There is something here that's not aligned with TLP. And bringing that into alignment is part of personal development. That's why we are here!

I get what you say but I have another point of view. Sometimes it´s easier to share private stuff with total unknowns. Ask e.g. a taxi driver. They hear all kinds of stuff from people they never see again.

It may be lack of courage but not always. Sometimes we need to free ourselves from the expectations of people who know us and 'put us in a box'.

Sometimes it's about privacy of other people. Lots of people share about issues they have with people at work or in their private life.

[YourHumbleNarrator]

Originally Posted by YourHumbleNarrator

Assuming paying members were of high quality, they still wouldn't hold a candle to a public forum as a public forum requires you to be conscious that anyone might see what you write.

I read this again, and I thought I should add a little more; public and private forums provide different tools for growth. Private forums probably provide better feedback on the whole, public forums require you to be more conscious about how you present yourself. That's why a model which utilizes both approaches would be fine by me.

[Rose of Cairo]

Originally Posted by seeker5

You say you don't want separation. The opposite of separation is unity, or something similar to it. So if you argue against separation, then you're by logic in favor of something like having unity on this forum.

I was talking about separation in a more general, energetic way. This is not necessarily related to creating unity among people. A split forum just feels bad to me energetically.

Originally Posted by seeker5

Edit: It is illogical to argue that aiming to have a level of privacy to be perfectly fine in certain type of interactions, but if you wish for privacy in other form of interaction, it's not ok and is a sign of problems in you.

I don't know about you, but the reason I talk with my friends is not the level of privacy.

Trying to get at me with logic won't bring you any further, Seeker. You seem to be very upset at my talking about misalignment with TLP. Why does it offend you so much? You wouldn't get mad if what I said didn't resonate with you at all. So instead of trying to shoot the messenger, have a look at the mirror.

Btw, I never said it's "not ok" or "wrong". There's no negative judgment when I say you're being misaligned. We're all misaligned with TLP in many ways. This here is just an opportunity to grow.

@Cinnabar: I get where you come from. Really. The ironic thing is, what you and Seeker would like to have seems to be exactly what I was advocating during the forum policy argument. This argument was about a lot more than just sexist comments, at least for me. I realized back then that my vision for the forum was not at all what Steve (and most other people) wanted. I wanted this forum to be some kind of loving, supportive, safe haven where we would all train, so to speak, as a team, and help each other grow, and THEN go out there and implement what we have learned here in the rest of our life. However, I was massively told that this forum is not meant to be such a place, that it should be a reflection of society as it is and a place full of dragons etc.. It took me a lot of grieving to get over that, and to accept that this place will be just some place in the net where people exchange ideas, and not the family-like growth support group I wanted it to be. So, please know that I understand what you mean.

*shrugs* It's not my job to uphold the forum policy, so do as you wish you all.

But splitting feels really bad to me.

[cinnabar]

Originally Posted by YourHumbleNarrator

However, when you need a good kick in the pants about the only way you're going to get it is by putting yourself on the line.

I see it this way, too. Though I also believe there is a transition period between the first realization of something and the need for that proverbial kick in the pants.

Originally Posted by YourHumbleNarrator

I read this again, and I thought I should add a little more; public and private forums provide different tools for growth. Private forums probably provide better feedback on the whole, public forums require you to be more conscious about how you present yourself. That's why a model which utilizes both approaches would be fine by me.

Well said.

Originally Posted by spirit4711

I myself took a short forum holiday because I noticed I spent time on forums at the expense of my 'real life' relationships. That cost got too high. I´ve found a new balance now and skipped some not essential time wasting activities.

It is good to gain that perspective, by stepping away now and then. Particularly when dealing with a time sink. I'm glad you've found a new balance with this!

Do you think that a paid forum or a split paid/public forum would increase the value of the place? Would it be less of a time sink then... or more?

Originally Posted by Rose of Cairo

@Cinnabar: I get where you come from. Really. The ironic thing is, what you and Seeker would like to have seems to be exactly what I was advocating during the forum policy argument. This argument was about a lot more than just sexist comments, at least for me. I realized back then that my vision for the forum was not at all what Steve (and most other people) wanted. I wanted this forum to be some kind of loving, supportive, safe haven where we would all train, so to speak, as a team, and help each other grow, and THEN go out there and implement what we have learned here in the rest of our life. However, I was massively told that this forum is not meant to be such a place, that it should be a reflection of society as it is and a place full of dragons etc.. It took me a lot of grieving to get over that, and to accept that this place will be just some place in the net where people exchange ideas, and not the family-like growth support group I wanted it to be. So, please know that I understand what you mean.

I do understand this, Rose. I didn't write back then - I was too "timid" to jump into that debate.. particularly being new to the forum by a couple months. But I was disheartened by the shift that was going on. I, too, wanted the forum to be a supportive place to train, learn, and grow. (Too bad I was too fearful to jump in and support you and others with that view. I just wasn't in that place yet.)

And maybe *that's* what I'm trying to tell myself, here. I stopped coming to these forums after that debate. And when curiosity brought me back, I stopped posting. I've lurked for a few months, now, still looking for this place to be that training ground. Maybe having a private forum would bring something of that sense back?

... Or maybe I just need to let go, already. Either of old hopes for these forums, or of the forums entirely.

On the whole, though, I still think that either a paid forum, or a paid/private subgroup would raise the value and quality of the posts - and provide a way for moderators to be compensated. A paid forum by itself would discourage new users. The option to pay for avs and such might be a way of giving back to the mods, but wouldn't necessarily raise the quality of the forum overall. The split, to me, seems an effective way of accomplishing all ends: raised value, support for mods, and a place for new users to become familiar with the place.

[spirit4711]

Originally Posted by cinnabar

...
Do you think that a paid forum or a split paid/public forum would increase the value of the place? Would it be less of a time sink then... or more?
...

I don't see more value in either a paid forum or a free/non free split forum. In other words, I like it as it is right now.

The (for me) irrelevant topics I skip. All in all the disadvantages of creating a (partially or fully) paid forum are more than the advantages for me.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by cinnabar

I do understand this, Rose. I didn't write back then - I was too "timid" to jump into that debate.. particularly being new to the forum by a couple months. But I was disheartened by the shift that was going on. I, too, wanted the forum to be a supportive place to train, learn, and grow. (Too bad I was too fearful to jump in and support you and others with that view. I just wasn't in that place yet.)

Does that give you access to seeing why it might tickle Rose and me, who did step up and stand for the value we perceived in having a safe, loving, supportive environment reasonably protected by moderation, faced with many people countering us that "free speech" trumps interpersonal respect, and the admins telling us that "Our top goal is not safety and love but rather growth."? To now have people coming out and saying, well, we want a place where safety and love is a bigger priority, where we can be safe from being googled and safe to publicly post things that we're not ready to PUBLICLY publicly post -- and let's have that be a private, exclusive place, where the OTHERS are not allowed to come -- only the elite, committed, paying people. No freeloaders. Can you see where that might strike us a bit funny?

Both Rose and I have come to terms with the policies and directions of the forums and learned something for ourselves. And we also recognize that policies and directions are flexible, and the values may evolve over time. And we also just can't help looking at each other and laughing, wondering where were all these people talking about making priorities of love, safety, and support?

I actually like it better now, and I've learned some important things about my own sense of power and growth, and my own priorities. And Steve is right -- there are plenty of loving, safe, schmoopy private and public places on the Internet, places where he himself would be banned. Not to mention that a private forum is not a forum at all, but also to set up a private "Smart People Lite" section of the forum seems like a step backwards for this place, in which, yes, Oneness is something of a stated high value.

All this is why I would vote to either keep it the way it is, or charge a fee for ALL posters while still allowing free reading for non-payers. A fee to cover costs and maybe throw a moderator party once in awhile is totally reasonable, I think. (I hope there'd be enough for airfare for Brutha and Michelle!)

[cinnabar]

I do see the irony in the two situations... and here, too:

...safe to publicly post things that we're not ready to PUBLICLY publicly post

Maybe the thought of giving this place "training wheels" is just my reluctance to jump in the water. If I wanted a schmoopy, sappy sort of place, I wouldn't be here at all. There are plenty of sites like that, but they hold no attraction for me. This is where I keep returning to. Maybe it's fine "as is", after all.

All this is why I would vote to either keep it the way it is, or charge a fee for ALL posters while still allowing free reading for non-payers.

That actually works... allowing new users to find the site and see what it's about before deciding to commit to it or not. Keeping the whole forum private seems a little nonsensical to me. And maybe a split private subgroup wouldn't raise so much for the mods anyway. Certainly not as much as having the entire forum pay-to-post.

[cinnabar]

Originally Posted by spirit4711

I must say, the topic has changed dramatically from when I started it. No problem, just wondered how we got from 'banned members' to 'paid PD forum'.

Being responsible for everything in my life, I'll withdraw from this topic for now and follow Michelle's example in seeking some guidance. I'll go watch my favourite Seinfeld episode.

(When I get back, it'll probably have gone via world peace, the great new Porcupine tree CD 'The Incident', and the rising economy to 'the members should be paid to provide such magnificent content'. )

Looks back at OP... Wow, this thread really was hijacked, wasn't it?

[Angela]

Originally Posted by cinnabar

Looks back at OP... Wow, this thread really was hijacked, wasn't it?

I don't think so... I think this was a natural outcropping in the conversation about the OP's suggestions about transparency about "what's acceptable around here," why people get banned, and what might reasonably be done to improve the forum.

[spirit4711]

Maybe this thread should be renamed 'suggestions for forum improvement'?

[Adrienne]

Originally Posted by Holistic Star

I think 15 posts is a bit high just to post in the general area and would probably deter genuine people from joining. I also think that anyone bent on being a troll would jump through that hurdle just for the fun of it. It could also create a lot of 'bounce' type posts in the general area so people can get their post rate up, otherwise would mean more mod work determining if something is a 'quality' post or not.

I agree, we would get alot of junk posts. Most people aren't the problem is it he occasional spammer and troll, and our tools work pretty well at catching them.

Originally Posted by YourHumbleNarrator

I read this again, and I thought I should add a little more; public and private forums provide different tools for growth. Private forums probably provide better feedback on the whole, public forums require you to be more conscious about how you present yourself. That's why a model which utilizes both approaches would be fine by me.

I agree, think there is alot of pros and cons both ways. However, both does give the benefits of both, but also the cons as well.

Originally Posted by Rose of Cairo

I was talking about separation in a more general, energetic way. This is not necessarily related to creating unity among people. A split forum just feels bad to me energetically.


I don't know about you, but the reason I talk with my friends is not the level of privacy.

Trying to get at me with logic won't bring you any further, Seeker. You seem to be very upset at my talking about misalignment with TLP. Why does it offend you so much? You wouldn't get mad if what I said didn't resonate with you at all. So instead of trying to shoot the messenger, have a look at the mirror.

Btw, I never said it's "not ok" or "wrong". There's no negative judgment when I say you're being misaligned. We're all misaligned with TLP in many ways. This here is just an opportunity to grow.

@Cinnabar: I get where you come from. Really. The ironic thing is, what you and Seeker would like to have seems to be exactly what I was advocating during the forum policy argument. This argument was about a lot more than just sexist comments, at least for me. I realized back then that my vision for the forum was not at all what Steve (and most other people) wanted. I wanted this forum to be some kind of loving, supportive, safe haven where we would all train, so to speak, as a team, and help each other grow, and THEN go out there and implement what we have learned here in the rest of our life. However, I was massively told that this forum is not meant to be such a place, that it should be a reflection of society as it is and a place full of dragons etc.. It took me a lot of grieving to get over that, and to accept that this place will be just some place in the net where people exchange ideas, and not the family-like growth support group I wanted it to be. So, please know that I understand what you mean.

*shrugs* It's not my job to uphold the forum policy, so do as you wish you all.

But splitting feels really bad to me.

It seems safe is being used in different ways here.
Rose seems to mean safe (correct me if i am wrong) like a safe warm loving environment.
Whereas some of the ways other people are talking about safe with regards to the a private forum is safe like, employers wont see it and fire you, for the information to be on google.

[Adrienne]

The pros of an all paid forum

Reliving some of the forum overhead for steve and erin becuase they could pay someone
Private forum which probably will lead to higher quality
few if any spammers and trollers.
More privacy

Cons
fewer new members.
people who might be great members wont pay up front unless they can try it first.

For paid parts and non paid parts, it seems like you get all the pros without the cons. People can still join, try it, upgrade if they want to. It might open the door for people to post things they dont want googled.
Maybe it is a matter of courage to post on the personal data on the forum, maybe it is not. Regardless, if someone has something they are trying to work thru, if we can offer them help and support, why not?
Just becuase some people dont mind sharing (or if it is a matter of courage) has the courage to do so in a way their boss can see, doesnt mean they dont deserve help. and hopefully sharing and growth that goes into it, maybe then they will have the courage.

[Rose of Cairo]

Originally Posted by Adrienne

It seems safe is being used in different ways here.
Rose seems to mean safe (correct me if i am wrong) like a safe warm loving environment.
Whereas some of the ways other people are talking about safe with regards to the a private forum is safe like, employers wont see it and fire you, for the information to be on google.

I can see how that is different. However, I don't think it is *that* different. In both cases, it's about protecting some group of people who are not able to take a fully public, fully free speech forum. Who those people are and why they can't take it is different, but in both cases it's about protecting someone in order for them to be able to fully use the forum. So, in my eyes, it's pretty much the same. It's about feeling safe to post.

Additionally, Seeker's description of the neat private forum where people post pictures and stuff sounds quite cozy to me. So I doubt it's that different.

The argument of employers googling and firing you is not valid in my eyes. (I mean "you" in a general sense, not you Adrienne) If you get fired because of who you are, then so what? Now honestly, how aligned are you with Love if you do a job where you cannot be fully yourself? How aligned with Truth are you if you need to hide some parts of yourself? And how aligned with Power are you if you hide in a private forum out of fear of getting fired?

Which is exactly my point. There is some misalignment here.

Originally Posted by Adrienne

Maybe it is a matter of courage to post on the personal data on the forum, maybe it is not. Regardless, if someone has something they are trying to work thru, if we can offer them help and support, why not?

For example because
- it is not congruent with the current "growth above all" forum policy?
- splitting the forum would create separation?
- allowing those people to hide in a private forum instead of addressing their issues is not doing them a favor long-term?

Just becuase some people dont mind sharing (or if it is a matter of courage) has the courage to do so in a way their boss can see, doesnt mean they dont deserve help.

Of course they deserve help. Everybody deserves help. Those who have a hard time with sexist comments deserve help too. Yet, we have to make choices for this forum, and these choices could be congruent. That means letting go of certain people.

I find it very weird that some of the same people who supported the "growth above safety" policy now want a special forum for people to hide and feel safe in.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Rose of Cairo

Now honestly, how aligned are you with Love if you do a job where you cannot be fully yourself? How aligned with Truth are you if you need to hide some parts of yourself? And how aligned with Power are you if you hide in a private forum out of fear of getting fired?

...And how aligned are you with Intelligence if you can't be bothered to use a anonymous screen name and disguise real names and identifying data in your posts?

[Rose of Cairo]

Originally Posted by cinnabar

Maybe the thought of giving this place "training wheels" is just my reluctance to jump in the water. If I wanted a schmoopy, sappy sort of place, I wouldn't be here at all. There are plenty of sites like that, but they hold no attraction for me. This is where I keep returning to. Maybe it's fine "as is", after all.

Of course it is!

You don't need to jump at once entirely in the cold water, you know. You can take baby steps.

Also, I'm aware of the fact that some people are not comfortable yet with being open. But the thing is, they won't get comfortable if they don't leave their comfort zone first.

When I joined this forum, I chose the nickname Rose of Cairo exactly because it had "nothing to do with me". It's from the movie "The Purple Rose of Cairo" by Woody Allen. I hate Woody Allen. I couldn't think of anything farther away from me. Do you think I have always been that open? Certainly not.

It is extremely empowering to step out of the "Oh my God what will people think!" pattern and into "YES! That is what I am. SO WHAT!!!". Alone that will make you feel much more comfortable with yourself. All of my weakest points are public. Paradoxically, this makes me invulnerable. If now or at any point in the future someone tries to use one of my weaknesses against me, I can just yawn and ask "Yeah? So what?".

If you need some support Cinnabar, we are here.

Love.

[Kathe76]

I would have no problem paying for access as I enjoy the forums several times a day! Also, since I live in vegas, I would be happy to help in any way I can. Reading these forums, and making money?! Thats a no brainer for me!! Happy dance.