Is this considered to be totally normal in the U.S?

[Agota]

I've just finished watching the new episode of "House MD". There was this scene where two girls carry sofa into his office, meanwhile he and two other guys just keep chatting. Is this considered to be normal in U.S. that women are carrying sofas around while men are sitting and watching???

I thought that there was some catch made by House, but apparently there wasn't..

[desertrat]

Hear in the U.S. most heavy work is done by us guys . A few of the women will do it , but most dont want that kind of job . Dr. House is an obnoxious guy , I dont watch that show very much . If you mean why did the guys just set there , let the girls do the work and not offer to help , if would me my guess it was part of the show . desert rat

[Kaie]

Probably just part of the show, not a normal thing.

[Agota]

I get why House lets women carry sofas around him, I don't get why normal guys just sit there???

I probably wouldn't believe my eyes if I'd see that happening in my country.. Or anywhere, for that matter..

Okay, probably it's just a part of the show

[VinceG]

No, it's not normal. Part of the fun of watching House is seeing the myriad ways in which the atmosphere around Dr. House disdains normal ideas of courtesy and gender roles. I saw that scene and I laughed my ass off. It wasn't the first time House has made women carry heavy stuff for him, and it's funny every time.

[Agota]

You guys restored my wish to move to U.S, because I was worried

[ZephyrusX]

What is wrong with women lifting heavy things for men?

I once met a guy who asked for help lifting his suitcase up the stairs inside the Toronto Union Station as the elevator to the train tracks was down. He asked a woman and she agreed as she was perfectly capable of doing it while the man was too small and weak to do it him self. This is just basic human courtesy in my mind. I don't think courtesy ought to be suffocated by gender roles.

I honestly don't get what is funny.

[Agota]

I grew up in an environment where men are expected to be masculine in a sense of being strong, able to endure physical pain and cold and respectful/protective towards women which is shown by gentleman-like behavior such as lifting heavy things for them or giving them a sweater in a cold weather. Women lifting sofas are nowhere in the picture here

There's even a sentence which is used around here to refer to a wuss:a guy asking his girlfriend/wife "Honey, can you move that wardrobe for me?".

Hopefully this explains why that scene was very weird to me

[ZephyrusX]

Ah, I see! Actually, there are still strong gender roles expecting men to be strong and considerate towards women in North America as well. May be more so the former quality (strength) than courtesy towards women. I probably would have laughed too if I was younger, but then, I’ve met men in my life who legitimately cannot do hard physical work for different reasons. It is sort of silly to hold men (and women) up to ideal gender roles when there are so many variations in physical body types and health. My brother, for example, was born very small and cannot lift heavy things. My father, on the other hand, could barely stand let alone lift anything heavy while he was receiving chemotherapy. Gender roles do not account for the static and dynamic characteristics of 'real men' - in the flesh, in the blood men.

Rather than adhere to gender roles, I’d prefer Marx’s ‘borrowed’ idea (I know you love this guy! ): From each according to his/her ability; to each according to his/her need. I’d like for this to be my guiding principle in helping others. If someone needs my help, I’ll give it to them if I can/want to regardless of their gender.

On the other hand, if men simply don’t want to be strong (I’m sure my brother could put on some muscle despite his stature if he actually wanted to), they ought to have that right as well without being laughed at.

[Mariana Trench]

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

Ah, I see! Actually, there are still strong gender roles expecting men to be strong and considerate towards women in North America as well. May be more so the former quality (strength) than courtesy towards women. I probably would have laughed too if I was younger, but then, I’ve met men in my life who legitimately cannot do hard physical work for different reasons. It is sort of silly to hold men (and women) up to ideal gender roles when there are so many variations in physical body types and health. My brother, for example, was born very small and cannot lift heavy things. My father, on the other hand, could barely stand let alone lift anything heavy while he was receiving chemotherapy. Gender roles do not account for the static and dynamic characteristics of 'real men' - in the flesh, in the blood men.

Rather than adhere to gender roles, I’d prefer Marx’s ‘borrowed’ idea (I know you love this guy! ): From each according to his/her ability; to each according to his/her need. I’d like for this to be my guiding principle in helping others. If someone needs my help, I’ll give it to them if I can/want to regardless of their gender.

On the other hand, if men simply don’t want to be strong (I’m sure my brother could put on some muscle despite his stature if he actually wanted to), they ought to have that right as well without being laughed at.

Agreed

It's funny in the show because House purposefully chooses the women on his team for lifting heavy things over the men just to weird people out. I get a kick out of stuff like that.

[Agota]

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

Ah, I see! Actually, there are still strong gender roles expecting men to be strong and considerate towards women in North America as well. May be more so the former quality (strength) than courtesy towards women. I probably would have laughed too if I was younger, but then, I’ve met men in my life who legitimately cannot do hard physical work for different reasons. It is sort of silly to hold men (and women) up to ideal gender roles when there are so many variations in physical body types and health. My brother, for example, was born very small and cannot lift heavy things. My father, on the other hand, could barely stand let alone lift anything heavy while he was receiving chemotherapy. Gender roles do not account for the static and dynamic characteristics of 'real men' - in the flesh, in the blood men.

Rather than adhere to gender roles, I’d prefer Marx’s ‘borrowed’ idea (I know you love this guy! ): From each according to his/her ability; to each according to his/her need. I’d like for this to be my guiding principle in helping others. If someone needs my help, I’ll give it to them if I can/want to regardless of their gender.

On the other hand, if men simply don’t want to be strong (I’m sure my brother could put on some muscle despite his stature if he actually wanted to), they ought to have that right as well without being laughed at.

Yeah, that "men carrying heavy things for women" usually applies in the the situations with a typical guy and a typical girl. I mean, I highly doubt that anyone would expect a man who's clearly sick to carry something heavy for a healthy woman, since that would be ridiculous. I haven't met many guys who would be incapable of that due to their lack of physical strength (as opposed to sickness), though. I remember that I felt really weird when I got an impulse to take heavy stuff from a guy because I was clearly physically stronger

..in general, taking heavy stuff from guys is considered to be pretty much an inappropriate behavior where I grew up. I wouldn't take heavy stuff from a healthy guy, no matter that he's physically weaker than me, I wouldn't give a sweater to a healthy guy and I wouldn't jump in to defend us both if me and a healthy guy would be harrassed by some morons on a street (..I mean if he's able to handle the situation alone, I obviously wouldn't just stand there and be pretty in case it's five guys against him. I remember when a guy once expressed the idea that in case we get assaulted on the street, I'm the one who should defend him since I'm a martial artist. I wasn't impressed at all.) Again, that's in typical situations with typical guys, it doesn't apply to every male on Earth.

The idea that guys should carry heavy stuff, give sweaters to girls and defend them makes sense, because it's based on physical differences: men are physically stronger than women in general and it's not good for a woman to carry heavy things because it might cause permanent damage to her body (well, it can happen to men as well, but their critical weight treshhold is way higher), men are generally able to endure higher degree of cold due to physical differences without getting ill and again men are physically stronger so it makes sense that they should be the ones who defend women in dangerous situations, not vice versa

[CoolBee]

It wouldn't happen in the UK. None of them would lift it without going on a Manual Handling course first
You would have to complete a chitty for someone - male or female - who had (a) been on the MH course and (b) it was his/her job to do it and (c) if they work in the National Health Service, they would be 'too busy' until Sunday when they get paid treble overtime to do it.


PS I'm also against gender stereotyping. It should be according to ability to do it, not sex. Mind you when I working, if I wanted something shifting and couldn't do it myself, but didn't require the manual handling training course, I used to go and stand and bat my eyelids and simper at the guys in a very exaggerated way and they would laugh and roll their eyes at the sight of a tall and at the time very overweight woman putting on a 'cutesy' act (for deliberate humorous effect) and say 'ok what can we do for you'.

PPS secret filming for documentaries in the UK revealed that men only help attractive young women or extremely old women shift heavy cases etc up and down stairs, old women or fat women are expected to manage their own.

[180]

This is America, we strive for feminists rights. Even if it means gross inefficiencies for prima facie equality.

I'm widely known on this forum as "misogynistic" but frankly I just tell how it is. Women shouldn't necessarily be doing heavy lifting. I don't believe it's good for a woman's body who has to bear a child and I don't think it's conducive even if it pits in traditional "gender roles".

Unless of course the woman grossly out strengths men but it's the exception not the norm.

Also, nowadays if you offer to help people, it's seen as an insult (implying they can't lift it), or you want something from them (ie. get in their pants. So these days, I don't even bother. This generation doesn't have manners and overall I despise Gen Y.

But I ALWAYS offer my help to older women, Gen X is still "misogynistic" with gender roles. Even if it means as a gentleman I will be subservient to the woman in need.

[Agota]

On a deeper level, I think that it's a positive thing when women are encouraged to be feminine and beautiful and men are encouraged to be masculine and strong. At least from my observations, when women have problems with the idea of being beautiful and men have problems with the idea of being strong, it signals that they have deep underlying issues.Talk to women who deny their own beauty and you find out that they often are uncomfortable with being a woman and they think that being feminine equals being weak, which is non-sense. Talk to men who have issues with the idea that they should carry heavy stuff for women and you'll often see unresolved resentment towards women, which usually comes from early childhood experiences and especially a relationship with their mothers. When people learn to appreciate their own femininity or masculinity, those deep unresolved issues start to weaken and fade. It also helps people to have a more positive attitude towards the opposite sex. Carrying heavy stuff for women might seem not that big of a deal, but it really works like a therapy for guys with issues and helps them to have healthier self-image and healthier relationships in the future.

[Agota]

Originally Posted by CoolBee

It wouldn't happen in the UK. None of them would lift it without going on a Manual Handling course first

This me laugh! I lived in UK for two years and this is so true!

Originally Posted by CoolBee

PPS secret filming for documentaries in the UK revealed that men only help attractive young women or extremely old women shift heavy cases etc up and down stairs, old women or fat women are expected to manage their own.

Yes, this is true in many cases.

I don't consider guys who don't do all the gentleman-like things for women to be a boyfriend material (this is not about who carries the bag, it's about guy's general attitude towards women), but I came to realize that yeah, many guys who seem to act like that only help women they find attractive. Now that I'm older and wiser I'd probably test a guy to see whether he's only nice to me because he wants to get in my pants or he's nice to me because he respects women in general.

[Agota]

Originally Posted by 180

Also, nowadays if you offer to help people, it's seen as an insult (implying they can't lift it), or you want something from them (ie. get in their pants. So these days, I don't even bother. This generation doesn't have manners and overall I despise Gen Y.

This is also true.

When I moved to UK, I noticed that guys are less likely to help you out only because you're a woman (..Keep in mind that I'm coming from an environment where most men don't let you to take few steps with something heavy in your hands), but then I realized that many guys simply don't do that because they're afraid to insult you. Which was very weird to me.

I remember I was in a female-only vegan party. I was the only one who thought that it's nice from a guy to offer to carry my bag only because I'm a woman: everyone else thought it's an insult and the guy is a chauvinistic pig. The discussion went further and I told them a situation where two girls were harrasing one normal girl on a bus stop in Lithuania and my friend who's a martial artist got confused what to do, because if it would be two guys he'd knock them out without blinking, but what do you do with two girls? (he defended the girl, of course, I think he just didn't let those two aggressive girls to get to her without going into physical contact). I was the only one who thought that it's very good that guy has a belief that he shouldn't punch a woman, no matter what the situation is. Everyone else thought that not punching a woman in the face in the situation where he'd punch a guy in the face without any hesitation makes him chauvinistic pig. I was very, very confused.

I also remember how an American guy that I met in Hasting and took the same train to London was worried that he might have insulted me by offering to carry my bag and letting me through the door first. I calmed him down and told him that I appreciate this type of behavior. He seemed pleasantly surprised and explained me that most girls take it as an insult. I didn't know what to say to that.

[Criseyde]

Load-bearing exercise is actually very important for women, as we're prone to osteoporosis and lifting helps keep the calcium in our bones.

Also, what about carrying kids around? Lugging a 30-50lb toddler for hours at a stretch ain't f'wimps.

Either way, I'm tiny and... tiny. I can easily handle about 40lbs for a short stretch of time (so like, hauling around bags of dog food/kitty litter/water softener), but I do appreciate help from the gentlemen (or other women, but it's almost always men), especially when I'm supposed to be hauling stuff over my head. Like those international airplane cabins with the ridiculously high baggage compartments. (Thanks again, Hot European Dude who prevented me from dropping my bag onto my own head, and oh so charmingly. )

[desertrat]

Following this on a slightly different tilt , I found some links with some sexy women , power lifters . World's Most Extreme Female Bodybuilders - Oddee.com (female bodybuilders gallery, massive female bodybuilders...) Female Body Builder Customer Photos Female bodybuilding - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia women body builders - YouTube I think if i offered to carry one of these ladies bags I might not be able to lift them , they would have there weight set in them . desert rat

[ZephyrusX]

How do you tell if a guy is physically weak due to illness though? I don't think you can tell in all circumstances. But yah, as it is, I have no problem helping guys lift things. It doesn't really matter why they can't lift things. Too bad I'm ridiculously weak my self.

[desertrat]

If a guy need help , he need to ask , unless you see some one that is having truble , then you offer help . The other day at Sams Club this lady was getting something frozzen from a big reach in frezzer , she was a partly inside the frezzer , I asked and held the door for her untill she got her food . desert rat

[Mariana Trench]

Agota, if you do decide to move to the US you'll get so many people with different conceptions of totally normal, depending partially on where you move, than most can keep track of!

[Agota]

Originally Posted by Mariana Trench

Agota, if you do decide to move to the US you'll get so many people with different conceptions of totally normal, depending partially on where you move, than most can keep track of!

Good thing that House MD is preparing me for that

[ssandra]

I think it is wonderful when men offer to help.

I think it is wonderful when women can graciously accept help.

I think it is horrible when men take stuff out of your hands without asking.

I think it is horrible when women take a well meant attitude and make it into an insult.


I love it when friends of mine take things out of my hands and help me with stuff (when they are not doing anything else useful).

I hate it when my father-in-law drops everything he is doing at that moment, simply because I am moving a chair across the room.

The difference is that one simply offers to help, and the other assumes that I am incapable, simply because I am a woman....

[Mariana Trench]

Originally Posted by Agota

Good thing that House MD is preparing me for that

I do not think you'll meet any House analogues.

[OptimistPrime]

Originally Posted by Agota

On a deeper level, I think that it's a positive thing when women are encouraged to be feminine and beautiful and men are encouraged to be masculine and strong.

I couldn't disagree more. I think it's much better for people to be encouraged to be themselves. If a man enjoys being feminine and beautiful, and a woman enjoys being masculine and strong, they shouldn't be shamed for (or ashamed of) it.

Personally, I'm glad that I live in a country where gender roles aren't as culturally ingrained as they are in yours, and I'm proud to be part of a generation that 180 despises.

[Mariana Trench]

Originally Posted by OptimistPrime

I couldn't disagree more. I think it's much better for people to be encouraged to be themselves. If a man enjoys being feminine and beautiful, and a woman enjoys being masculine and strong, they shouldn't be shamed for (or ashamed of) it.

Personally, I'm glad that I live in a country where gender roles aren't as culturally ingrained as they are in yours, and I'm proud to be part of a generation that 180 despises.

Here, here!

I think it's beautiful when people at any point/intersection of sex/gender/gendered-expressions spectrum can own that and embody a healthy attitude about and expression of that part of themselves and integrate it into their wholeness as a person.

[momo3bur]

This is so funny to me because I was mostly raised in a house full of women, so we had to do everything ourselves. My grandpa was there, but he spent most of his time in his own little delusional world and if you asked him to help you with something, there would almost always be a horrible accident. LOL.

When I was with my dad, he also taught me how to do things for myself. Taught me how to change oil in the car, tires, clean spark plugs, change a battery. He taught me how to use tools and all their different names. He taught me how fix my own bike, how to ride a motorcycle, how to operate a CB and HAM radio...lol..., how to build little lightbulbs out of different liquids and test tubes. Man I can't even name it all.

So I think between having my dad there to treat me as if I was just as intelligent, strong, and capable as any man to do these things for myself combined with actually HAVING to do them when I was at home with my mom, sister, and aunts, I never really thought much about being entitled to a man's help with things like heavy lifting.

I think I personally appreciate a sort of combination of the "let her do it herself" attitude and "I'm the man, I've got the muscles" attitude. I think it would really piss me off if I were moving a huge piece of furniture across a room and my husband wasn't nice enough to at least offer to help. Or worse yet, if I asked for it and he ignored me or told me to do it myself. LOL. However, I'd hope that any able bodied person would offer to help in a situation like that.

[Agota]

Originally Posted by OptimistPrime

I couldn't disagree more. I think it's much better for people to be encouraged to be themselves. If a man enjoys being feminine and beautiful, and a woman enjoys being masculine and strong, they shouldn't be shamed for (or ashamed of) it.

Personally, I'm glad that I live in a country where gender roles aren't as culturally ingrained as they are in yours, and I'm proud to be part of a generation that 180 despises.

I would say if someone who's a man enjoys being more feminine and someone who's a woman enjoys being more masculine and it's all healthy and it's not a result of underlying issues with their own gender and with the opposite sex, they should go for it, people should live their lives the way they want to assuming they're not harming others

..I haven't met anyone with this kind of gender confusion (for the lack of better term, it's not meant to be offensive in any way) without serious underlying issues, though. You just have to dig deep enough. Well, I guess that's not surprising, mentally healthy people are rare (I think I've met two in my life) and I definitely don't count myself as one of them

On a deeper level, I think both mature masculinity and mature femininity (not dumb machos and stupid bimbos) have the same thing at it's core, it's simply that external manifestations are different. I generally think that dividing universal qualities into masculine and feminine anywhere beyond external level is narrow-mindness. Let's say caring and compassion would be considered feminine qualities from that point of view, but the most masculine man I know also happens to be the most caring and compassionate person I've ever met. I think that the essence is the same, it's simply that the more of that essence person acquires through personal/spiritual growth, the more masculine or the more feminine in a mature sense he or she becomes externally according to person's gender.

[Agota]

Originally Posted by momo3bur

When I was with my dad, he also taught me how to do things for myself. Taught me how to change oil in the car, tires, clean spark plugs, change a battery. He taught me how to use tools and all their different names. He taught me how fix my own bike, how to ride a motorcycle, how to operate a CB and HAM radio...lol..., how to build little lightbulbs out of different liquids and test tubes. Man I can't even name it all.

I bet you impress guys with knowing all of that stuff..Jesus, I can barely change a lightbulb

I probably wont' get on the cover of "Feminism Today" anytime soon

[momo3bur]

Originally Posted by Agota

I bet you impress guys with knowing all of that stuff..Jesus, I can barely change a lightbulb

I'm not sure how impressive it is, although once my husband's friend came over while I was building cabinet doors with our radial arm saw (see, that's pride because I KNOW how to use it and my husband doesn't, even though it was his Christmas gift from his grandpa), and he seemed to be surprised and couldn't believe Josh would "LET" me do that all by myself. I think he thought I would be more likely to chop a finger off because I'm female. I dunno. LOL. He was sweet enough to offer to help, though.

It has helped save lots of money, which I think might be the only reason my husband keeps me around. LOL.