Any Writers Here? Artists??

[SquarePeg]

I was wondering if y'all have the problem I do.

Like most writers/aspiring writers, I started out as a kid with little stories to amuse myself. Not sure why, as I'd never imagined making a living with them; just did it 'cause it was fun.

Fast-forward to the future: now. The kind of stuff I used to do for myself as a kid, science-fiction, fantasy, horror, adventure...I'm no longer into. Yet these are genres that are sure bestsellers!

I'm actually into so-called literary fiction now, stuff I used to not "get" at all as a kid! Nowadays, however, I just can't get into the stuff that I used to love so much -- for example, I was doing teenage vampire stories way before they became fashionable! In some ways, you might say that I anticipated "X-Files," "Buffy the Vampire Slayer," and "Lost," only as a kid writing (and drawing!) little stories and comics for his own amusement....

So what I'm getting at is, any of you make a living writing stuff you don't actually like? A creative writing teacher of mine had a friend who couldn't get his literary stuff published but was making tons of money as a romance novelist...I wonder what it takes to get into that certain mindset to write something you really don't care about.

Same thing for artists: you want to do modern art but what folks are looking to hire is a traditional portraitist...how do you reconcile it??


TIA

[brendannz]

I sell prints of my artwork and make a good part time income, but still need other part time work

[VinceG]

I've got the same problem you've got, a writing bug that's absolutely useless to the rest of the world. I write and rewrite all my posts here with OCD-like fervor, hoping one day it'll be good enough for people to actually pay money for. Never could I be bothered with the business end of writing, or even fitting my prose to a format. I struggle with all the same demons real writers do, and get none of the perks. Can't stop myself.

[invisiblehouses]

I'm at a sort of crossroads with both prose and songwriting, and it relates to these questions.

In the past, I was very uncompromising when it came to Art-with-a-capital-A. I studied English and Creative Writing in college, and came out with a Flannery O'Connor/Raymond Carver chip on my shoulder that disdained everything that wasn't Literary-with-a-capital-L. If I spoke the words "genre fiction," I didn't so much say them as spit them. "Science fiction? Fantasy? P'shaw! I bite my thumb at thee!"

On the music front, I was inherently suspicious of anything that made people feel too good. I was downright pretentious about it; perhaps 5% of all music was "good enough" for me. If you brought up country music, I'd rant for half an hour how only the "badasses" of 35-40 years prior were valid artists, and that everything after 1970 was pablum for stupid people.

A few years ago, I started easing up a bit. When I started reading personal development blogs and books, I came upon ideas about "creating value," and different ways of doing that. I began to think about the possibility of staying true to who I am while also creating things without so many self-imposed rules, and in the process being able to bring value to a wide audience (which basically entails entertaining them).

I've had some interesting results from this:

1. I'm finding that it's a lot more fun when you lighten up.
2. I'm mostly concentrating on songwriting lately, and what I've been writing is mainstream country music. The exact kind of thing I used to hate.
3. I'm finding it's still possible to express my sort-of-oddball perspectives through genre music and have it be both true to myself and palatable to others.
4. I've realized that the "Real Country Artists" of yesteryear were making music that was every bit as commercial in its day as "Achy Breaky Heart" was in 1990.
5. With writing fiction, which is on the back burner for now, it's easier to come up with ideas when I stop caring about being "literary."
6. I've got an idea for a (don't laugh) vampire novel that is so goofy (okay, flat-out dumb) that it's almost a moral imperative that I write it someday.

Now, this has a number of possible implications, which could be any one of the following, or a combination thereof:

1. I am a hack, I've always been a hack, and I'm just seeing myself clearly now.
2. I could have been a Real Artist, but now I'm trying to become a hack and a sellout.
3. Being a hack/sellout is just what people call you when they're jealous of your success.
4. None of this really matters if you're having a good time, which is what I've been doing.

So I guess it's not much of a "crossroads," since that term implies indecision and worry, neither of which apply to the situation. I'm pretty happy with what I'm been doing. Actually, I'm downright excited. I'm not quite sure what the next steps are, but as they say around these parts...you begin to see the path only when you start walking down it.

[cacheborn]

I am trying out writing sci-fi because I really love it. But in your case, why not try both? Write what you love and also, try to combine what you love and what is popular. There are two schools of thought - one says write only what your heart tells you to. Other says write what sells. But writing stuff that you hate does not make sense to me personally. I won't be able to do it.

[SquarePeg]

Originally Posted by brendannz

I sell prints of my artwork and make a good part time income, but still need other part time work

Well, I've yet to reach even that modest stage of professional, uh, development, so congrats and more power to ya!

Say, do you know how these NY gallery folks can get away with selling $20,000 pieces of art?? Marketing?? What???

[SquarePeg]

Originally Posted by VinceG

I've got the same problem you've got, a writing bug that's absolutely useless to the rest of the world. I write and rewrite all my posts here with OCD-like fervor, hoping one day it'll be good enough for people to actually pay money for. Never could I be bothered with the business end of writing, or even fitting my prose to a format. I struggle with all the same demons real writers do, and get none of the perks. Can't stop myself.

D00d!!

Been trolling usenet groups and website forums forever! May just be something some of us need to get out of the ol' system, like that proverbial first novel about our childhoods!

The internet has been a great tension release valve for me and I think I can now go on to pen the next Great American Novel! I think I've let go of a lot of the so-called "self expression" by blabbing so much, stripping away all ego online, leaving, I like to imagine, something much more pure for my future readership....

[SquarePeg]

Originally Posted by cacheborn

I am trying out writing sci-fi because I really love it. But in your case, why not try both? Write what you love and also, try to combine what you love and what is popular. There are two schools of thought - one says write only what your heart tells you to. Other says write what sells. But writing stuff that you hate does not make sense to me personally. I won't be able to do it.

It's copywriting, and for some really scammy clients. But it's providing a moderate, decent lifestyle and I'm hoping to use this next year to really write some stuff and escape to much improved circumstances!

[SquarePeg]

Originally Posted by invisiblehouses

I'm at a sort of crossroads with both prose and songwriting, and it relates to these questions.

In the past, I was very uncompromising when it came to Art-with-a-capital-A. I studied English and Creative Writing in college, and came out with a Flannery O'Connor/Raymond Carver chip on my shoulder that disdained everything that wasn't Literary-with-a-capital-L. If I spoke the words "genre fiction," I didn't so much say them as spit them. "Science fiction? Fantasy? P'shaw! I bite my thumb at thee!"

I know what you mean. I hated having to slug through genre fiction in writing workshops, but perhaps worse was the would-be literary stuff which seemed to lack all ambition! Or some guy would try to adopt a postmodern pose and start writing nonsense in imitation of James Joyce....

Originally Posted by invisiblehouses

A few years ago, I started easing up a bit. When I started reading personal development blogs and books, I came upon ideas about "creating value," and different ways of doing that. I began to think about the possibility of staying true to who I am while also creating things without so many self-imposed rules, and in the process being able to bring value to a wide audience (which basically entails entertaining them).

I'm at this same point now -- finally! Funny thing is, I started out, as a kid like any other kid, lovin' the pulp fiction stuff...had to be educated to like so-called literary fiction! Thankfully, after years trying to reconcile the two apparently opposing impulses, I believe I've finally started to really come to a balanced synthesis of motivations and inspirations.

Originally Posted by invisiblehouses

So I guess it's not much of a "crossroads," since that term implies indecision and worry, neither of which apply to the situation. I'm pretty happy with what I'm been doing. Actually, I'm downright excited. I'm not quite sure what the next steps are, but as they say around these parts...you begin to see the path only when you start walking down it.

That's a great big of folksy wisdom! Glad to see you've also started coming to grips with being an artist and not a critic!

[invisiblehouses]

Originally Posted by SquarePeg

Funny thing is, I started out, as a kid like any other kid, lovin' the pulp fiction stuff...had to be educated to like so-called literary fiction!

Yep. You start out just liking what you like, then they "educate" you on what you're not supposed to like. Like, "Oh, I can't read Stephen King anymore? Damn..." The thing is...King is clearly writing stories he's in love with, and if you're looking for lessons on how to have stuff happen in a story, reading Christine once will get you farther than deconstructing Finnegans Wake a thousand times over. Hell, he never claimed to be James Joyce. His On Writing is an excellent book, incidentally.

I've gone back to Flannery O'Connor and Ray Carver in the last few years, and I'm finding they make wonderful entertainment. To me, that's a sign of great art...sure, it's rich enough that you can poke around under the hood, but it's also possible to just read the damn thing and have a great time. I hate to tell lit. critics (my former people!) this, but if "Good Country People" wasn't so damn sick and hilarious, nobody would ever bother to teach it in college.

[cacheborn]

Originally Posted by SquarePeg

It's copywriting, and for some really scammy clients. But it's providing a moderate, decent lifestyle and I'm hoping to use this next year to really write some stuff and escape to much improved circumstances!

Okay. Why not keep on doing that till you get a better option and at the same time use your free time to write what you like. I am suggesting this option just so because it may not be feasible to suddenly drop a good source of income. Novelist Haruki Murakami used to run a bar in Tokyo. He had to work all day long well into the night. He would finally be free at 2-3 in the morning, then get down and start writing his novel. That's some dedication!

[cacheborn]

Interesting. Woody Allen said the same thing about Beckett. He is deep and clever, but I don't care.

I’ve seen Beckett, along with many lesser avant-gardists, and many contemporary plays, and I can say yes, that’s clever and deep but I don’t really care. But when I watch Chekhov or O’Neill—where it’s men and women in human, classic crises—that I like.

Originally Posted by invisiblehouses

Yep. You start out just liking what you like, then they "educate" you on what you're not supposed to like. Like, "Oh, I can't read Stephen King anymore? Damn..." The thing is...King is clearly writing stories he's in love with, and if you're looking for lessons on how to have stuff happen in a story, reading Christine once will get you farther than deconstructing Finnegans Wake a thousand times over. Hell, he never claimed to be James Joyce. His On Writing is an excellent book, incidentally.

[SquarePeg]

Originally Posted by invisiblehouses

Yep. You start out just liking what you like, then they "educate" you on what you're not supposed to like. Like, "Oh, I can't read Stephen King anymore? Damn..." The thing is...King is clearly writing stories he's in love with, and if you're looking for lessons on how to have stuff happen in a story, reading Christine once will get you farther than deconstructing Finnegans Wake a thousand times over. Hell, he never claimed to be James Joyce. His On Writing is an excellent book, incidentally.

I've gone back to Flannery O'Connor and Ray Carver in the last few years, and I'm finding they make wonderful entertainment. To me, that's a sign of great art...sure, it's rich enough that you can poke around under the hood, but it's also possible to just read the damn thing and have a great time. I hate to tell lit. critics (my former people!) this, but if "Good Country People" wasn't so damn sick and hilarious, nobody would ever bother to teach it in college.

Yup!

For all that, though, I don't blame college literature and creative writing courses. I think it's done much more good than harm, with whatever harm really coming from my own misunderstanding of things. For example, just 'cause Finnegans Wake is considered a great achievement of literature doesn't mean that that's the very form of writing appropriate for me as a writer! Yet somehow I allowed myself to feel that way, that I had to push the envelope, be on the cutting edge myself, when it isn't something one can exactly aspire to, necessarily, in the conventional way of aspiring to achieve other goals in life....

Yeah, I'm not so much into horror and whatnot now, but Stephen King has got my respect for entertaining people -- the first job of a writer. I don't want to be a Stephen King, but there's no reason to consider him a simple hack. He's got his audience, and I...will have to find mine!

Have you read John Gardner's "Art of Fiction" and "Becoming a Novelist"?? He's a guy held in great respect by Carver and, IIRC, O'Connor. He was Carver's creative writing teacher once and much beloved.

[SquarePeg]

Originally Posted by cacheborn

Okay. Why not keep on doing that till you get a better option and at the same time use your free time to write what you like. I am suggesting this option just so because it may not be feasible to suddenly drop a good source of income. Novelist Haruki Murakami used to run a bar in Tokyo. He had to work all day long well into the night. He would finally be free at 2-3 in the morning, then get down and start writing his novel. That's some dedication!

Yeah, I'm finally finally trying that route at long last!

I'd had the suspicion that my output would not be as good as it would be were I able to dedicate all my time to writing, but I'm also convinced that I'm never going to have the time to write anyway so I best just get out what I can!

Ironically, this change in attitude is now making me consider writing eBook novels, fun escapist literature...I still can't see that medium/distribution system as being appropriate for "literary fiction" but I ain't trying to write that no' mo' nohow anyway these days!

[SquarePeg]

Originally Posted by cacheborn

Interesting. Woody Allen said the same thing about Beckett. He is deep and clever, but I don't care.

I like both, and frankly, I doubt Woody Allen's veracity on Beckett et al. He's just being a comedian, that's all. If you think about it, his best stuff combines both elements.

You know, I've thought of using a pen name for my attempts at fun escapist literature and leaving my real name for the "serious fiction" of Beckett and company...perhaps that's how I can finally allow myself to be all that I want to be!

[Criseyde]

Ah yes, the age old question. L'art pour l'art or l'art pour tous?

Write what you love. The world doesn't need more soulless pulp fiction.

Maybe don't quit your day job, though.

[invisiblehouses]

Originally Posted by SquarePeg

Have you read John Gardner's "Art of Fiction" and "Becoming a Novelist"?? He's a guy held in great respect by Carver and, IIRC, O'Connor. He was Carver's creative writing teacher once and much beloved.

No on Becoming, but I've read Art many times (it was a required title for one of my creative writing classes). I actually think The Art of Fiction by Gardner and On Writing by King work well as a team: between them, you can learn some massive lessons that might otherwise take years. My favorites are:

• Third-person limited narration is essentially corny (Gardner)
• Kill yr adverbs! (King)

Naturally, there are no hard and fast rules, but those two ideas right there can really help you leap forward in quality if you just sorta keep them in the back of your mind.

Kurt Vonnegut also had a nice little list of tips for writing fiction (I thought it appeared in Palm Sunday, but the link says otherwise). At the end, he concedes that Flannery O'Connor regularly broke every single rule except the first one.

[invisiblehouses]

Originally Posted by Criseyde

The world doesn't need more soulless pulp fiction.

But soulful pulp is awesome!

[Criseyde]

Originally Posted by invisiblehouses

But soulful pulp is awesome!

Agreed.

[cacheborn]

Originally Posted by SquarePeg

I like both, and frankly, I doubt Woody Allen's veracity on Beckett et al. He's just being a comedian, that's all. If you think about it, his best stuff combines both elements.

I think in this case Woody was being serious. And I don't doubt his knowledge of art and literature, although, most of the time he uses it as source material for his humor. But once in a while, the real serious woody shines through. Like in the movie Manhattan, near the end there is a monologue.

Well, all right, why is life worth living? That's a very good question. Well, there are certain things I guess that make it worthwhile. Uh, like what? Okay. Um, for me... oh, I would say... what, Groucho Marx, to name one thing... and Willie Mays, and... the second movement of the Jupiter Symphony, and... Louie Armstrong's recording of 'Potatohead Blues'... Swedish movies, naturally... 'Sentimental Education' by Flaubert... Marlon Brando, Frank Sinatra... those incredible apples and pears by Cezanne..

This is so poetic, so lyrical. I can never get tired of watching it.

[cacheborn]

Originally Posted by SquarePeg

You know, I've thought of using a pen name for my attempts at fun escapist literature and leaving my real name for the "serious fiction" of Beckett and company...perhaps that's how I can finally allow myself to be all that I want to be!

I know it has become a cliche, but write what you really want. Writing for the market may work but you will feel empty inside.

Yesterday, I came across this, thank to Sansone. Great tips.

how to be creative | gapingvoid

[brendannz]

Originally Posted by SquarePeg

Well, I've yet to reach even that modest stage of professional, uh, development, so congrats and more power to ya!

Say, do you know how these NY gallery folks can get away with selling $20,000 pieces of art?? Marketing?? What???

Thanks, although I must say it's taken a while.. I just found a good formula for making my work affordable and accessible, and still have plans to expand on that..

The $20,000 is mostly prestige I believe. The people paying that money, AKA art collectors are left brained people, mostly. As well, the gallery would take at least 50% of the $20,000..

But either way you look at it, I think the $20,000 requires a story behind it by someone to reach that amount. It may be a good idea to ask Danas, because I think she's a gallery artist?

I make a few thousand each year selling $12 prints and $5 fridge magnets, but it's also led a more inclusive art gallery to approaching me, and they told me that only 5-10% of artist to any marketting.

So if what this guy says is anything to go by, **** the masses and be the 5-10%

[SquarePeg]

Originally Posted by Criseyde

Ah yes, the age old question. L'art pour l'art or l'art pour tous?

Write what you love. The world doesn't need more soulless pulp fiction.

Maybe don't quit your day job, though.

It's so hard to put away writing or drawing materials in order to clock in somewhere...much easier now that I'm in a good position at work, but still hard when I really get into writing or drawing.

I used to be a straight-A student, and still would cut classes not to hang out but to go write and draw! However, "real life" doesn't seem to work that way -- there's nothing I can cut or trim...it's a very tense situation, reconciling being "useful" with being "true" -- assuming I'm not plain misinformed in the first place!

[SquarePeg]

Originally Posted by invisiblehouses

No on Becoming,

You should get a copy just for the amusing little anecdote of a foreword by Raymond Carver!

Originally Posted by invisiblehouses

but I've read Art many times (it was a required title for one of my creative writing classes). I actually think The Art of Fiction by Gardner and On Writing by King work well as a team: between them, you can learn some massive lessons that might otherwise take years. My favorites are:

• Third-person limited narration is essentially corny (Gardner)
• Kill yr adverbs! (King)

Naturally, there are no hard and fast rules, but those two ideas right there can really help you leap forward in quality if you just sorta keep them in the back of your mind.

I've been meaning to read Stephen King's how-to, but what really fascinates me about Gardner is his insistence on fiction as a mode of thought, a way of thinking about the world, a tool, even, for moral investigation! Reading Gardner's prescriptions always gets me excited as to the "wider possibilities" of a good story....

Originally Posted by invisiblehouses

Kurt Vonnegut also had a nice little list of tips for writing fiction (I thought it appeared in Palm Sunday, but the link says otherwise). At the end, he concedes that Flannery O'Connor regularly broke every single rule except the first one.

That's the thing about rules! Perhaps we shouldn't call them "rules" anymore -- not even "guides"...just, well, "thoughts" and leave it at that...those of us especially sensitive to language, after all, can get the heebie-jeebies from such words!

[SquarePeg]

Originally Posted by Criseyde

Agreed.

Yeah, I'm wondering how to go about writing soulful pulp now. Can't believe folks actually read stuff on eReaders! I'd never have thought eBooks would be so big....

[SquarePeg]

Originally Posted by cacheborn

I think in this case Woody was being serious. And I don't doubt his knowledge of art and literature, although, most of the time he uses it as source material for his humor.

I see his shtick as being like the class clown, like, remember how there was always someone making jokes no matter how serious the subject? He may have been funny, but he certainly wasn't paying attention!

And while I can enjoy a Woody Allen (or a Howard Stern, for that matter!), I don't think their digs or riffs at intellectual stuff as being somehow valid critiques of "over-intellectualization," shall we say...they're useful, in the way that all humor is, in reorienting those of us prone to detailed analysis back towards the everyday, but they do not have anything actually "valid" to say about the issue at hand: just doing a Gordian Knot-esque end-run around things, is all.

Originally Posted by cacheborn

But once in a while, the real serious woody shines through. Like in the movie Manhattan, near the end there is a monologue. This is so poetic, so lyrical. I can never get tired of watching it.

Wow, I never thought of it that way. It felt appropriate enough for an ending, but also quite expected, IMHO. I really remember thinking, "Ah, how conventional a coda."

Hmm, maybe you're right about Woody's assessment of Beckett. Maybe he was serious!

[SquarePeg]

Originally Posted by cacheborn

I know it has become a cliche, but write what you really want. Writing for the market may work but you will feel empty inside.

Well, you know that struggle between the human and the divine that they're always exploring in Lit 101??

Like I said, I think I'll just use a pseudonym for pulp stuff to pay the bills and my real name for the "serious" stuff....

Originally Posted by cacheborn

Yesterday, I came across this, thank to Sansone. Great tips.

how to be creative | gapingvoid

Quite a nice site; thanks for sharing! Inspiration for my own one day....

[SquarePeg]

Originally Posted by brendannz

...a more inclusive art gallery to approaching me, and they told me that only 5-10% of artist to any marketting.

Sorry, come again??

[brendannz]

...a more inclusive art gallery to approaching me, and they told me that only 5-10% of artist to any marketting.

Originally Posted by SquarePeg

Sorry, come again??

I'm rephrasing this, so it makes some sense.

A more inclusive art gallery approached me about displaying originals with them, while I was at the market selling prints. When I went along, they told me that only 5-10% of artists there actually do any marketing.

I guess my point is, that if you do some marketing of your art, you're probably ahead of a lot of other artists