Goodbye

[AlmostGodess]

Sending nerdy-intellectual-shy hugs and kisses to everyone

[Lucidism]

Those are some of the best kind of hugs and kisses!

[Plays With Life]

*gets hugged and kissed happily*

Sending some right back.

[Jon Tore]

Originally Posted by Mounds

My original point was going to be someone dropping an anvil or a piano from a 10-story building. Halfway through the coinflip, I realized just how out there that really was. Who the hell would wreck a perfectly good piano? And an anvil!?! Those things are heavy!
Shovels. People hit things with shovels all the time. That's why I chose it.

Laughed for a long time after reading this, thank you! *wiping eyes*

[royster]

Not an "I told you so", but just offering a point of view.

As one who seriously studies corruption, this is a redflag that things will deteriorate quickly at this rate.

And they did.

[MidasGirl]

Originally Posted by Mounds

I've run into some strange crap on this board. For instance, I've read that it's just dandy to kill people!
Now I read that it's on the woman to not feel offended when someone makes a lewd comment.
Say I'm walking down the street and someone hits me in the face with a shovel. I get a little upset and all the pedestrians start telling me to suck it up. Clearly the person with the shovel is the victim here... just look how bad he feels!
I understand that there are cultural and language barriers between Blacko and ourselves. I'm happy to work with that!
I'm surprised that a lot of people consider it gunk or gremlins or whatever that this offended Elucidate and AG. Not everything has to become a personal growth journey. I, for one, will not be considering this kind of stuff OK anytime soon. Most women would be mildly offended if someone said something like this to them. It sounds predatory! Not terribly concerned what the universe/Gawd/energy's opinion is. I consider myself a gentleman and this kind of stuff doesn't fit the bill.

-Tim

I love you.

[MidasGirl]

Originally Posted by blacko

Hello friends, because of some personal reasons I will not be participating in this forum anymore. I really doubt I will log in again. Anyway, I had a good time with you guys and you all take care. Good Bye.

Blacko, I know you're reading this. (just a hunch)

I can tell you what the issue really is. Exposure. You're just not exposed to the way westerners relate to each other. It's not an elitist thing. Just that there are so many cultural subtleties and nuance that take a person being immersed in a culture for a while to really "get". So you might see, say, PlayswithLife joke a certain way with a woman here, and you try something "similar" and then wonder why it backfired big time on ya.

My suggestion would be, if your desire is to hang around westerner-saturated forums, to just stay and observe, learn, participate a little here and there. Till you've really learned how the interaction happens.

I for one don't think you were trying to be rude on purpose. You were probably thinking you were just being flirtatious, like PWL for example, lol. I've observed that you sort of look up to him as a role model.

Stay and learn. You don't have to participate hyperactively, eventually you'll catch on the social dynamics.

[noitcefrep]

oh my jeeperz I have never seen such a pronounced departure on these forums. What is the purpose here? I get the feeling you simply want people to cry out "don't go, we forgive you/love you!"

I have seen this same message on like 3 or 4 threads. Isn't there a rule against spam?

[MidasGirl]

Originally Posted by Lucidism

To be blunt, I'm frankly surprised at how many arguments there are on a personal development for smart people forum. So I asked, why is this? I'm not criticizing anyone in particular. I just think the "atmosphere" has so much more potential yet unseen.

There are arguments on every forum I've ever visited unless it is heavily heavily moderated. This is probably one of the most heavily moderated PD forums I've seen, so if you go to other PD forums (for smart or dumb people) you'll see a lot more arguing.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by Lucidism

Yeah, those are some good points, AlmostGodess.

Ya know, I had forgotten that the posts in question were made in the "[Xtreme ADULT]Say something EXTREMELY EXTREMELY sexy to the person above you" topic. I was operating under the idea that they were said in normal conversation. So given the context, it wasn't as inappropriate as I had thought a mere 30 minutes ago, though perhaps still a bit unexpected.

Anyway, yeah... harassment and discrimination laws are definitely a hot debate. Ultimately I guess we should just go with how the majority feels, but even that's not always the best option in all cases.

I guess it comes back to what the person percieves, 'cos I didn't find what he said to be all that "sexy"...it turned me off more than on.

Maybe it wasn't innapropriate, for the thread,. but it still wasn't something that I found to be a sexy comment...and so I asked him to stop.

The other comments he made on the other thread were not harassing, but they also made me feel a bit uncomfortable.

I don't think he meant any harm, or to be rude, but it came off as just really slimy to me. Obviously he is embarrassed about the whole thing...but like I said to him here, he doesn't need to put his personal growth on the line over it...I got over it.

[James81]

Originally Posted by elucidate

I guess it comes back to what the person percieves, 'cos I didn't find what he said to be all that "sexy"...it turned me off more than on.

Maybe it wasn't innapropriate, for the thread,. but it still wasn't something that I found to be a sexy comment...and so I asked him to stop.

The other comments he made on the other thread were not harassing, but they also made me feel a bit uncomfortable.

I don't think he meant any harm, or to be rude, but it came off as just really slimy to me. Obviously he is embarrassed about the whole thing...but like I said to him here, he doesn't need to put his personal growth on the line over it...I got over it.

Perhaps instead of reprimanding him publicly, you could've sent him a PM highlighting your discomfort?

Water under the bridge, but something to think about for future reference.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by James81

Perhaps instead of reprimanding him publicly, you could've sent him a PM highlighting your discomfort?

Water under the bridge, but something to think about for future reference.

Thanks for the tip James. I don't think I actually said anything offensive to him though...again, IF YOU READ MY POST! I asked him to stop and said I wasn't impressed. It's not like I publicly humiliated him.

So, because I didn't do things the way YOU would have, I'm being chastised now.

[James81]

Originally Posted by elucidate

Thanks for the tip James. I don't think I actually said anything offensive to him though...again, IF YOU READ MY POST! I asked him to stop and said I wasn't impressed. It's not like I publicly humiliated him.

So, because I didn't do things the way YOU would have, I'm being chastised now.

Then why did he feel such discomfort that he felt he had to leave?

I'm reading your posts, I'm just not agreeing with your perspective.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by James81

Then why did he feel such discomfort that he felt he had to leave?

I'm reading your posts, I'm just not agreeing with your perspective.

So you ARE blaming me for him leaving.

Look, I don't know why he felt he had to leave over it...but I did nothing but ask him to stop what he was doing. If you are so broken over him leaving and can't see that I had every right to ask him to stop if I didn't feel comfortable, then that's YOUR issue!

I didn't MAKE him feel discomfort...as is your argument with me. WHy do the rules change when it's a guy doing it? I felt uncomfortable from his comments...should I just put up with it, because he wants to grow?

I don't see your perspective either.

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by James81

Then why did he feel such discomfort that he felt he had to leave?

James, you're not paying attention!!

He left because he won the lottery and now has better things to do then hanging around on a forum


On the same note, if you tell elucidate that she "should" take responsibility for her own feelings of discomfort, so "should" blacko for any discomfort that he might have felt for whatever Elucidate told him

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by ssandra

James, you're not paying attention!!

He left because he won the lottery and now has better things to do then hanging around on a forum


On the same note, if you tell elucidate that she "should" take responsibility for her own feelings of discomfort, so "should" blacko for any discomfort that he might have felt for whatever Elucidate told him

Exactly my point! It seems though that what is good for the goose isn't good for the gander.

[elucidate]

He CHOSE to leave...I didn't drive him away. I accepted his apology and got over it. I even said that there was no need for him to leave over it. What's your problem?

[aelle]

Originally Posted by Lucidism

I've noticed a pattern in this forum of girls telling guys to back off due to what I refer to as "harassment", or something that is seen as harassment.

.../...

To be blunt, I'm frankly surprised at how many arguments there are on a personal development for smart people forum. So I asked, why is this? I'm not criticizing anyone in particular. I just think the "atmosphere" has so much more potential yet unseen.

It makes sense to me. These boards are filled with people who pursue their own path of developments. For some men, this means learning to be more sexually assertive, more flirtatious, better at chatting up women. Of course they're not going to be perfect on their first try - sometimes they'll come out as really sleazy and innapropriate. For some women, this means learning to reclaim their bodies and their sexuality, to set boundaries, to be heard. Of course not everyone is going to get it right on the first try - sometimes they'll use much harsher words than they intended for a given situation (I'm not thinking of the recent Elucidate/Blacko incident, but of some older ones).

I don't think it necessarily reflects a tense environment. Or tense people. I think it reflects people who are learning and sometimes rub each other the wrong way in the process.

For the record, about this particular exchange, I stand 100% behind Elucidate. She, for whatever her personal reasons may be and is up for speculation for the rest of us, felt her comfort boundaries were being crossed, and made it known clearly. No one but her knows whether she felt harrassed, offended or anything else, and unless she wants to, it's not up for us to discuss. That's up to her to deal with
Similarly, if upon reading her message Blacko felt shame, humiliation, or won the lottery or whatever else we might speculate on, it's up to him to deal with. Elucidate's message was clear and to the point, and without any extra attempt to shame (she didn't call him names, she accepted his apolgy). It's part of life as an adult to learn to deal with other people's boundaries.

[elucidate]

Thanks for acknowledging that aelle...I feel really supported now.

I don't know why that was so hard for james to get, but it's good to know that someone gets that.

If blacko has the right to express his thing, and maybe he didn't do a great job of it, an is just new, then that's o.k. I don't think I handled it too badly.

Why does james think it's not ok for me to express my discomfort, but I'm to blame for causing blacko discomfort?

At least some people understand, which I'm grateful for.

I am learning about setting clear boundaries with people, as this has been an issue for me due to past abuses...so I don't feel bad about being assertive to blacko. However he chose to take it, is up to him as is his decision to leave or not. I am not to blame for that, and I resent the implication that james is making.

Both parties feelings and where they are at are as important...not just blacko's.

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by elucidate

Why does james think it's not ok for me to express my discomfort, but I'm to blame for causing blacko discomfort?

Since he opened the door, I'm just going to psycho analyze James here for a bit

You know I love you James and mean no harm. Just let me know when you want me to shut up

I'm guessing here that James (or a part of James' past) identifies with Blacko a lot. Sees in him the poor kid he was, trying very hard and got shot down by strong woman / girls.

So by defending Blacko, he is basically going back to his roots and standing up for himself when he was that kid that could make inappropriate remarks, while trying desperately to fit in...

[noitcefrep]

I back you 100% elucidate, I got yo' back if the ♥♥♥♥♥ hits the fan.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by noitcefrep

I back you 100% elucidate, I got yo' back if the ♥♥♥♥♥ hits the fan.

Thanks dude. Feelin' the love now...

Yes, I was just in the shower and thought the same thing as you Ssandra.

It definately seems to me like James identified with blacko...and PWL identified with james, and they all started defending their positions from the past....the only catch is...IT'S NOT ABOUT THEM...and blacko isn't here.

I have every right to say if I feel uncomfortable or not...regardless of what James thinks I 'should' do. My feelings are my feelings, and my boundaries are my own...whether he wants to acknowledge that or not.

I feel much more supported now. Thanks guys.

[James81]

Originally Posted by ssandra

Since he opened the door, I'm just going to psycho analyze James here for a bit

You know I love you James and mean no harm. Just let me know when you want me to shut up

I'm guessing here that James (or a part of James' past) identifies with Blacko a lot. Sees in him the poor kid he was, trying very hard and got shot down by strong woman / girls.

So by defending Blacko, he is basically going back to his roots and standing up for himself when he was that kid that could make inappropriate remarks, while trying desperately to fit in...

Actually, that's way off. I don't remember a time making inappropriate comments to girls.

You can read about the gremlin that showed up here earlier with me in my other thread. I really think that elucidate blew things way out of proportion. Both in the original offense and here in this thread. And it's not hard to see why, considering she mentioned abuse on the past.

Sorry if you're not feeling heard or feel attacked, elucidate, but, like I said, it would be easier if you looked at why you felt that way than lashing our at me and trying to convince me otherwise. Not saying you should, just saying it would be easier.

[noitcefrep]

I just feel bad knowing I was on the other side of the fence once upon a time, stepping without regard for your boundaries. Funny how things turn out, me being here defending you. Maybe blacko should learn from me!

[James81]

Damn iPod and autofail lol.

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by elucidate

It definately seems to me like James identified with blacko...and PWL identified with james, and they all started defending their positions from the past....the only catch is...IT'S NOT ABOUT THEM...and blacko isn't here.

I didn't see PWL defending James... I think he was just trying to give some objectivity

I do think that you (elucidate) are responsible for any feelings that you might or might not have regarding any of Blacko's posts

Just as Blacko is responsible for any feelings he might or might not have regarding any of your other anyone elses posts

But being responsible for your feelings doesn't mean that you are not allowed to have them

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by James81

Actually, that's way off. I don't remember a time making inappropriate comments to girls.

You can read about the gremlin that showed up here earlier with me in my other thread. I really think that elucidate blew things way out of proportion. Both in the original offense and here in this thread. And it's not hard to see why, considering she mentioned abuse on the past.

Sorry if you're not feeling heard or feel attacked, elucidate, but, like I said, it would be easier if you looked at why you felt that way than lashing our at me and trying to convince me otherwise. Not saying you should, just saying it would be easier.

Whatever james. I'm not really interested in any more of your "opportunities for growth"

[elucidate]

Well yeah. I am responsable for my feelings...I never claimed I wasn't.

Originally Posted by ssandra

I didn't see PWL defending James... I think he was just trying to give some objectivity

I do think that you (elucidate) are responsible for any feelings that you might or might not have regarding any of Blacko's posts

Just as Blacko is responsible for any feelings he might or might not have regarding any of your other anyone elses posts

But being responsible for your feelings doesn't mean that you are not allowed to have them

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by James81

Actually, that's way off. I don't remember a time making inappropriate comments to girls.

You can read about the gremlin that showed up here earlier with me in my other thread. I really think that elucidate blew things way out of proportion. Both in the original offense and here in this thread. And it's not hard to see why, considering she mentioned abuse on the past.

Oh well... was worth a try wasn't it? I'll work on my intuitiveness

But... I am curious... Why would you say that Elucidate is responsible for her response towards Blacko yet also state that she's also responsible for how Blacko responded to her?

Originally Posted by elucidate

Well yeah. I am responsable for my feelings...I never claimed I wasn't.

And I never said that you claimed that you weren't

I was just pointing out the obvious I like pointing out the obvious. It makes it seems as if I'm right a lot

[noitcefrep]

Originally Posted by James81

Actually, that's way off. I don't remember a time making inappropriate comments to girls.

You can read about the gremlin that showed up here earlier with me in my other thread. I really think that elucidate blew things way out of proportion. Both in the original offense and here in this thread. And it's not hard to see why, considering she mentioned abuse on the past.

Sorry if you're not feeling heard or feel attacked, elucidate, but, like I said, it would be easier if you looked at why you felt that way than lashing our at me and trying to convince me otherwise. Not saying you should, just saying it would be easier.

From what I've read between elucidate and blacko, luci gave him ample warning that she didn't want those interactions from him, and he continued to do so. Inexperienced with flirting/sexual assertiveness or not, he at least has common sense to tell him that she is responding negatively toward his advances, but he disregarded that. Blacko was publicly inappropriate, and elucidate responded publicly to stop those actions. It sounds 100% justified to me, and instead of running away from the forums at the first sight of enemy gunfire, he should have acknowledged his wrong doings and work to earn respect again.

I don't know why this is so difficult to understand.