The Matrix for Dummies

[Rose of Cairo]

Originally Posted by Jamie

Who am I to say, I guess all a person can do, is give an honest opinion on a matter.

Yes, who am I to know that someone now needs to feel the pain of rock-bottom, or to be treated softy-softy? And who am I to know which direction someone needs to go? I don't know.

Plus, is there really such a thing as the straight and direct truth? When someone explains her/his case, everybody will see it differently, depending on their own experiences. Who's right? Well, nobody, and everybody

The cases here are more complex than just knowing if some guy is the One or not

Sorry for derailing the thread even more!

[seeker5]

Originally Posted by Rose of Cairo

Yes, who am I to know that someone now needs to feel the pain of rock-bottom, or to be treated softy-softy? And who am I to know which direction someone needs to go? I don't know.

Hmm, who are we to think someone needs to feel the pain of rock-bottom?

Regarding the woman with the grandparents, I'm all for being honest and upfront with someone. I don't understand how some people can go "you're too immature" and "one day, in the far future (when you aren't as stupid) you'll understand this". Which certainly seemed the case in that thread.

Hearing how some people responded to her really does make me rethink of this as a safe place to dig deeper and work out some of my issues. Granted her responses leaves a lot to be desired. However, had people responded to me the same disrepectful way that they responded to her, I don't think I'd have opened up the way I did.

Edit: But then again, I've only checked her two most recent threads, so I don't know the whole story at all. But still, when someone who views themselves as a loser, I don't see how it benefits to treat them as a loser, at least in a forum of personal development.

[Angela]

seeker5, it's important to Steve and Erin and all the moderators that people feel safe to express themselves and work things through responsibly. In the case of that thread, there were posts removed that we could see would leave people feeling unsafe.

If one member were to tell another, "you're immature", it would probably be designated by the moderators as a personal attack. In that case, though, the OP herself, in her post, described herself as immature, among other things, and the other poster was agreeing that that was probably true. It didn't occur for me as an attack. I'm sorry it did for you, though, and I hope you'll report posts that you feel create an atmosphere where we are not free.

Additionally, if someone posts irresponsibly, or even posts responsibly about irresponsible or damaging behavior, then it's fair to expect that folks will not condone that behavior -- but not attack the person herself. When buttons get pushed, though..... the space between stimulus and response can be pretty small for any of us. Hopefully one of the big things we're all learning here is how to enlarge that space!

[JimOfferman]

I guess I am a bit like the Oracle in that I always tell people what (I think) they need to hear, even if that is the exact opposite of what they want to hear. It is, to stay with the Matrix' philosophy, the difference between knowing about and telling the path to someone versus letting them walk it.

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by JimOfferman

I guess I am a bit like the Oracle in that I always tell people what (I think) they need to hear, even if that is the exact opposite of what they want to hear. It is, to stay with the Matrix' philosophy, the difference between knowing about and telling the path to someone versus letting them walk it.

But how often does one really know about someone else's path?

I would think in the rare case of knowing something of someone else's path, that is given to you to bring it out, not squash it.

More often we are deluding ourselves into thinking we know what someone else's path is and that is not a truth and is not to be said since it is out of wack.

[Angela]

I agree. I have no idea what you need to hear. More likely if I'm giving you unsolicited advice, what I say is to you is something I need to hear outside the bones of my own head. So thanks for letting me give me (you) advice!

But if you ask for advice ..... if you post here saying, "what d'yall think?" then part of the adventure is hearing the individual truths of everyone who is drawn to the question. Just the fact that some is drawn to it tells me there's something to be listened to. We're required by the rules of the forum to speak responsibly, and I think it's the responsibility of the listener to either take what they get or say no thanks -- again, responsibly. If the speaker starts trying to tailor her words to what she thinks the listener can handle, she's moving the snail from one side of the road to the other -- but maybe that's not where the snail was going.

[Jennihul]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

Yeah but... such an important topic, ha? That I remember too - the Oracle only tells people what they need to believe. But then why is that? I'd say that's because she doesn't pick up on what people don't need to know or can't take in - not that she picks up everything and keeps some of it to herself. Just my view on that. I like to think of the Oracle as up front and not too involved with the unfolding of the One, that she was just part of a bigger plan that even she couldn't see.

I think the Oracle knew he was The One. But we aren't talking about her knowing he's going to be the next Oscar winner. We are talking about him being the savior of the human race.

I think the Oracle knew that if she had just said "Yep, you are The One. Bout time, dammit. Fawkin Morpheus took long enough. Pass me my lighter, Neo..." he would have said, in that Keanu voice: "yeahhhh, right..." thinking to himself, "What kind of wacky setup is this? Why did I take that hit of ecstacy in that damn club with that crazy white rabbit broad? I'm gonna kill Troy! I bet they are videotaping me right now for YouTube..."

Remember the Oracle said, when Neo mentioned that Morpheus almost had him convinced: "It looks like you are waiting for something....Your next life maybe." (which was symbolic, as we learn later, that there had been many incarnations of The One.) Neo was still waiting to wake up. As if from a dream. He had not committed to the idea. Until he did, he technically was not The One.

Jennifer

[JimOfferman]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

But how often does one really know about someone else's path?

I can't speak for everyone, but in my case, more often than I should know.
(and I'm trying not to sound delusional here...)

I would think in the rare case of knowing something of someone else's path, that is given to you to bring it out, not squash it.

It's not about squashing. It's more like someone comes to me and tells me he wants to try the path down A and I know it's risky and there's at least ten other guys who went there and failed miserably. I will not cheer him on despite of that, nor will I deter him from taking that path. I'll just say: "If you go that way, you're likely to fail. But if that's what you gotta do, that's what you gotta do."

Whether or not he then takes the path is up to him.

More often we are deluding ourselves into thinking we know what someone else's path is and that is not a truth and is not to be said since it is out of wack.

I think the delusion is at the other end: too often we think that others can tell us exactly what we need to do. And that is simply not true.

I can do no more than tell you what I think you need to hear. Angela can do no more than tell you what she needs to hear (and hope that advice is sound for you too).

You have to decide what is right for you.
You have to walk the path - not me or Angela or anyone else.

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by JimOfferman

I can't speak for everyone, but in my case, more often than I should know.
(and I'm trying not to sound delusional here...)



It's not about squashing. It's more like someone comes to me and tells me he wants to try the path down A and I know it's risky and there's at least ten other guys who went there and failed miserably. I will not cheer him on despite of that, nor will I deter him from taking that path. I'll just say: "If you go that way, you're likely to fail. But if that's what you gotta do, that's what you gotta do."

I understand what you mean. But I was speaking in terms of the Oracle and being a psychic. I know advice can work and listening to people try to decide something can produce people giving advice that helps them see perspectives, etc. But we really don't know exactly what their path is - that's what I was saying. Advice is different than knowing what someone will become or not.

Whether or not he then takes the path is up to him.

Yup, people getting advice is not for them to follow just because someone told them that advice would make a certain path. The advice may help them understand their choices or how a path might turn out.

I think the delusion is at the other end: too often we think that others can tell us exactly what we need to do. And that is simply not true.

Good point. And that's because no one else really knows what your own path is, so expecting that someone else can tell us what to do doesn't work.

I can do no more than tell you what I think you need to hear. Angela can do no more than tell you what she needs to hear (and hope that advice is sound for you too).

You have to decide what is right for you.
You have to walk the path - not me or Angela or anyone else.

Telling me what you think I need to hear - but that doesn't mean you know what my path is. Back to my take on the Oracle- she tells people what they need to hear because that's all she picks up on. Not that she knows the path and then decides what to say or not. Which is similar to advice. We don't really know what path is best, just know what we think would work or be trouble. The individual then has to use the advice on their own path. I think we are saying the same thing...

[JimOfferman]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

I think we are saying the same thing...

Yeah, I think so too...

[osirisx69]

Check out this website.

Chizumatic - Too many words about The Matrix

Its basicly a programers view on the movie. Its just his opinion and insight BUT its a damn fine read if I do say so myself.

[JimOfferman]

Originally Posted by osirisx69

Its just his opinion and insight BUT its a damn fine read if I do say so myself.

He lost me with the comment on Smith calling the Oracle 'mum' - that was a snide remark on the way she addressed him, not a hint at a mother-son relationship. I say: close, but not cigar

(I've really seen these movies too many times)

[Jennihul]

Well, the architect did say to Neo, paraphrased maybe, "If I am the father of the Matrix, she is certainly it's mother" when referring to The Oracle.

Jennifer

[Herbalist]

My favourite Matrix movie

A must watch!

[ArwenTaylor]

Originally Posted by Angela

Okay, I've home in bed with a cold, channel-surfing, so I finally watch "The Matrix." Mostly because you guys drop the odd Matrix reference around here. I got as far as the visit to the Oracle and the cat deja-vu before my brain shut down and I just wanted to take my blue pill (not THAT blue pill; my Nyquil, I mean.)

I read the wikipedia explanation of the movie so you won't spoil the plot for me, but please tell me: why does the Oracle say, sorry, Neo, you're not The One, maybe in another life. But then Neo turns out to be The One, right? He is fated to save the world (or at least all the pod people, yes?) So, who is this Oracle, and why does she give wrong information? And why would she give right information? How would she know? She's an exiled program?!? I don't get it. Why doesn't she just know who the One is without them coming for cookies? What's up with all the 'potentials'? That spoon-bender had a good line, but she was as annoying as Britney Spears speaking with an English accent. Okay, sorry; I think my cold medicine is kicking in.

I know this is an old thread but this movie is on TV now and interestingly I turned to the channel right at the start of this part of the movie.

This bothered me too when I first saw the movie. Why would the Oracle tell Neo that he wasn't the one when in fact she knew he was? I think it comes down to interpretation. I think in reality she was playing into both his and the audience's disbelief. If you really listen to the dialog, it can be taken either way.

Oracle: Now this is the part when I say mmm, that's interesting but, and then you say...

Neo: But what...

Oracle: Then I say, you already know what I'm going to say.

Neo: I'm not the one.

Oracle: Sorry kid. You've got the gift but it seems as though you are waiting for something.

The Oracle doesn't actually come out and say he is not the one. Neo does. Her next line does sound like she's confirming his statement but in fact she could also be denying his statement. It's ambiguous on purpose. It can be taken as 'Sorry kid, you're not the one' or 'Sorry kid you're wrong. You are the one'.

I think the Oracle knew that Neo had to prove to himself that he was the one so she let him believe what he wanted to believe. Telling him he was the one would do nothing to overcome his disbelief. He had to do that on his own.

This scene really mimics what each of go through in our daily lives. Someone encourages us to take a path that we really want to take but we doubt our strength and abilities. We end up having to prove to ourselves that we are strong enough to walk that path.

Anyway I've rambled enough. I really love the Matrix series and encourage everyone to watch the movies.

[Angela]

Yeah, that makes sense. If he had said, "I'm the one?" maybe she would have just stood silent and been present to his emerging realization of Who He Is?

Maybe I am doing that, too. It's uncomfortable, and I hope I don't have to have a fight in a subway in order to experience my emerging power.

I guess it's time to see the 2nd one now.

[Anagogy]

Oracle: Do you know what that means?
[points to a banner]
Oracle: It means know thy self. I wanna tell you a little secret, being the one is just like being in love. No one needs to tell you you are in love, you just know it, through and through. Balls to bones.

In my opinion, the Oracle knows he will be the one, but she also knows that currently he is not the one. If she had just told him he was the one, it would not have benefited him, because Morpheus has already told him he's the one, and he doesn't believe it, or at the very least, is not sure if he is. Aside from that, he probably wouldn't believe her either, and the pressure of "being the one" could impede his natural evolution. Neo doesn't "become" the one till Trinity (another name loaded with symbolism) expresses her love for him, hence the above quote. That's when Neo finally understands what the Oracle's words truly meant. He stops thinking, and starts knowing. He stops "perceiving" the matrix as it would have him perceive it, and sees it as raw data that can be manipulated by his mind.

The Oracle is an interesting character, she doesn't lie, but she is deliberately misleading in order to promote the best possible outcome, which she already knows the potentials of.

[Herbalist]

Oracle: Come on, Neo, show me the robot!
Neo: No... I can't...
Oracle: Come on!
Neo: What if I fail?

I still highly recommend watching my favourite

And I highly recommend watching "Johny Mnemonic".

[osirisx69]

Well remember the oracle's programming is to facilitate the one. She is programmed to bring the one back to the matrix and help restart humananity after the purge. She basiccly is in charge of the human anamolys (sp) until they have grown to large and then the one will be reborn again so she can guide him/her and start the cycle new. The only reason neo and the rest of humanity survived is because Agent Smith's programming got corrupted and he was allowed to copy himself over and over again. So the machines had to barter with humanity to survive