Abortion (Blog)

[Erin Pavlina]

Use this thread to discuss the following entry from Erin Pavlina's blog:

Abortion

[Akashic_Librarian]

Ahh you see this is where I disagree with Erin. I think Abortion is a right any parent has, both male and female must make a mutual decision (unless its rape or damaging to the mothers health etc..) If they wanted a baby, but then the either one gets fired from their job, then I think its perfectly acceptable to get an abortion. If the child will be mentally ill, or physically ill to the point where it will affect their daily lives so much they need constant care, and constant attention, then I think its OK to abort them, in fact, I think its selfish to keep them alive.

I don't think there would be spiritual reprecussions in this instance. I think life begins as the baby leaves the womb. Up until that moment, its not conscious in my opinion. Its obviously alive, its alive from day 0, but when are you truly conscious? When are your earliest memories? age 3 - 5 I imagine for most people...

Its complicated, and I know a lot of people, will have a lot of opinions...

[Matthew Shea]

Erin, you have a very well balanced view. I'm in complete agreement.

[NotesMaeve]

Erin, outstanding summary.

There are consequences to ending a life, despite the fact in can be a helpful decision in the context. So I guess my question is this: How do we support a spiritually sensitive woman who had an abortion and is feeling the aftershock of this?

[Andrew Brunelle]

Abortion can be a touchy subject. I do not judge those who choose to have one, nor do I encourage those who have not to have one. You're right, Erin. If it comes down to love and fear, I can totally respect a loving abortion over a fear abortion. It is an act of what Steve would probably call 'polarized abortions.' It is all in the energy you put behind it that makes it a light act or a dark act. Great post.

[lizthefair]

This is a nice take on an important discussion. I think where it really gets dicey is when we consider whether women get to decide for themselves how to proceed--in love or in fear. Personally I think that grownups get to make their own choices, and live with the consequences.

I wish we could spend even 1/2 the energy currently focused on forcing people into one decision or the other after the fact on (as Erin says) eliminating the circumstances that lead women to choose abortion. If your goal is to "save babies" that's where the real leverage is.

[Erin Pavlina]

Supporting a woman who has chosen an abortion...

In the case of the woman who used abortion as birth control, regret is the beginning of growth.

In the case of the woman who chose abortion because of an act of love, remind her that her child's soul is intact and safe, it may yet incarnate as one of her children in the future, and to forgive herself for what happened. Healing any sadness that remains would be next.

[Erin Pavlina]

Originally Posted by lizthefair

This is a nice take on an important discussion. I think where it really gets dicey is when we consider whether women get to decide for themselves how to proceed--in love or in fear. Personally I think that grownups get to make their own choices, and live with the consequences.

Whoever makes the decision bears the responsibility and the karma.

Originally Posted by lizthefair

I wish we could spend even 1/2 the energy currently focused on forcing people into one decision or the other after the fact on (as Erin says) eliminating the circumstances that lead women to choose abortion. If your goal is to "save babies" that's where the real leverage is.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. I really think fertility should be taught in high school, maybe even started in junior high. I know that in high school I had no idea what time of the month I was fertile.

[openeyes]

Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. I really think fertility should be taught in high school, maybe even started in junior high. I know that in high school I had no idea what time of the month I was fertile.

Considering that an increasing number of people are hitting puberty by age 8-11 (myself among them), teaching them about it at least by junior high would certainly help. Luckily I had a mom smart enough to give me condoms when I was 11, looked 17, and was dating a 16 year old.

[Matthew Shea]

About the sex ed thing, it surprises me to hear that so many people know so little. I went to Catholic school from 4'th - 12'th grade. I got it both in 8'th and 9'th grade. It should be taught comprehensively to everyone, preferably before sexual activity starts for most kids. That's going to vary from place to place, but it seems like we need some better standards. Going further, we should even be teaching our youngest kids a few of the most basic things so they know enough to recognize when they might be in a dangerous situation.

Edit: for clarity, I was in 8'th grade in '86 - '87.

[carenkh]

One of the reasons I like my church so much is they helped develop (along with the United Church of Christ) comprehensive, non-judgmental, open-minded sex ed. curriculum. We start with an introductory class for 5th - 6th graders, then the main curriculum for 8th graders. They can do another class in high school if they choose. I've always been open about discussing sex with my kids, but I think it was important for my son to hear the same things (actually, much more than he had ever asked me about!) from someone else, in a group of his peers.

I had an experience a few years ago... my husband and I were in the midst of exploring separation, going to counseling, etc. I got a VERY strong sense that a baby girl spirit wanted me for her mom! She was hanging around me a lot - it seemed like she was looking for an opportunity to manifest. I had to sit down and tell her it was not the right time for me to have a baby, and she'd be happier if she let me go and looked for another family. (This was before I was deeply in touch with my intuition - this was all very strange to me!) I've felt sad about that choice from time to time. I had wanted a baby girl... I guess I placed that order with the universe, then when it came, I had to send it back! I hope she's happy wherever she is. It almost feels like an abortion.

[Naito]

Great article Erin, I think you read my mind because I just wanted to ask your opinion on that subject. I cannot agree however, that an abortion can be a loving choice, I believe they are all based on fear. Fear of taking responsibility, fear of future, etc. I was pregnant 4 times and because of my age I knew there could potentially be some problems with the developing baby. Every time, I was in fear that a baby would turn out to have Down's or something. I miscarried all 4 times, so I never had to face a potentially difficult decision, but I thought about it a lot. If a woman decides to abort a malformed fetus isn't it because she fears her future with that baby? All the questions and looks from family and friends, all the things that the baby will never do, all the work and sacrifice, etc etc. I don't see how killing a malformed fetus even with a life threatening illness can be a loving choice. What if you have a healthy baby and then it gets a life threatening disease when it is 1 year old? Would we consider killing them too? And what about all the life lessons the ill child was supposed to teach us?

[Erin Pavlina]

When I was pregnant with my daughter one of the tests came back that she possibly had Trisomy 18, a genetic defect that always ends in the death of the child by the time they are 1 (usually much sooner). We were given counseling on our options. But the chances that she actually had the defect were something like .5%. They wanted to do an amnio to see, but the amnio had a miscarriage rate of 2% so I declined and decided we would watch the markers and see what happened. At 32 weeks they were able to rule out Trisomy 18 with an ultrasound.

But what would we have done if she did have Trisomy 18? I'm not sure. it would have depended on her quality of life. If she was going to be in horrible pain then I would have considered it merciful to end it before she had to go through that. But if she would have been in decent shape I would have enjoyed and been grateful for the time we had together.

As for a loving choice, I do see how abortion could be loving, as in the case of a woman who has quadruplets in her belly and they will all die unless one or two are selectively aborted. Not saying it's an easy decision or one without sadness but I wouldn't put this woman in the same category as the woman who flagrantly has sex knowing she will just abort any pregnancies.

[Vanilla]

Erin,

I thought you said in a previous blog that a soul decides to incarnate with a deficiency. If that's true, then how would it be loving to abort the baby because we know they're going to have a deficiency. If that soul chose that life, isn't the mother still not following through on the contract?

The same with rape. If a soul decided to come that way...then how can one lovingly tell the soul NO.

Just a little confused...:-\

[NotesMaeve]

Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina

In the case of the woman who chose abortion because of an act of love, remind her that her child's soul is intact and safe, it may yet incarnate as one of her children in the future, and to forgive herself for what happened. Healing any sadness that remains would be next.

Outstanding advice.

[Erin Pavlina]

Vanilla: In the case of rape or a defect the soul has indeed made a contract to come to those parents, but we here on earth still have free will, and because of this double edged sword, we can choose to terminate a pregnancy. All decisions you make in life come with ramifications, consequences, and some karma. The article was to point out that there are varying degrees of consequences based on the intent of the person making the decision.

To further illustrate the case of the child who decides to incarnate with a deficiency... the soul selects its circumstances and makes the contract. The higher self of the mom (and dad too) seal the contract. But the physical being is generally unaware that a contract has been made, and so when they find out the defect is in the child their own beliefs, religion, experiences, choice etc will inform their decision about what to do about it. Free will can throw a monkey wrench into the best laid plans of souls.

[Naito]

Erin, you must have gone through so much anguish with that diagnosis. I can't even imagine. I think many people would have aborted that perfectly healthy baby if they were in your shoes, just relying on the first bad test, and they would do it out of fear.
However, I am still not convinces that aborting a malformed fetus which would be born to live in pain is a loving choice. Pain is not always bad. My dad was in a land mine accident as a child and his body was badly and permanently mangled. He was in a horrible pain but went on to have a full and happy life. Somehow, I don't feel we have the authority to judge whether someone's life will be worth living before they are even born.

[Tuumble]

Before I became a parent I was generally pro-abortion. The choice of the mother and father was the priority in my view but I have to say that's changed.

While I still think there are times where it is possibly the best option but having children myself now makes it very difficult to say that.

My wife had an abortion many years ago before we met very much against her will but that decision essentially changed my life as well as hers. Her son would be 18 this year and our eldest is 8.

Who knows whether our paths would've crossed. Probably not. That means that our three children wouldn't have been born and the lives of those that they met have been changed too.

It is still messing with nature because it changes the future irrevocably.

[Lola]

Although I was a young, clueless, goal-less, college drop-out, responsibility-dodging party girl who found herself accidentally pregnant, I no-showed for my appointment at the abortion clinic in December 1983. I discovered I was more terrified of what going through with it would do to my life than I was of what a baby would do to my life.

That missed appointment turned out to be this fine young man and I've been grateful everyday since.

[Matthew Shea]

It strikes me that all the disagreement on what's justified or not is a strong indicator that, for such polarizing moral issues as this, we need to trust one another's judgment more than anything. People should be able to make their own decisions and live with the consequences. We also need to make sure that all the correct information is available in what's hopefully an unbiased form.

[NotesMaeve]

Lola, your son is just beautiful.

[Angela]

If anything would make me regret having had an abortion, it would be seeing the beautiful son you have, Lola.

[Erin Pavlina]

Originally Posted by Naito

Somehow, I don't feel we have the authority to judge whether someone's life will be worth living before they are even born.

We have the right to make that decision, but we also must bear responsibility for the consequences. This is why I am so pro-education on fertility. When I think of all the adults who are actively trying to get pregnant but don't know what time of the month they are fertile it frustrates me a wee bit because most of the women I speak to have no idea when they ovulate, how long an egg is viable/fertilizable, or how many days their cycles are. When I explain it to them they are amazed and shocked by the information. I can't think of anything more basic to teach in school than how babies are created and how to naturally avoid getting pregnant when you don't want to be pregnant and how to get pregnant when you do.

Lola, your son is very handsome and has a beautiful, loving spirit.

[ZHereford]

Originally Posted by Lola

That missed appointment turned out to be this fine young man and I've been grateful everyday since.

Wow Lola, you must be very proud. Good for you!

You not only went through with it you obviously followed up all the way.

[Lola]

Awww - *beams* - thanks guys - He IS a beautiful spirit (all wrapped up in a tough-guy package).

Thinking further about this topic - because of my decision, I had to grow up and get my act together in a hurry. Not that I always succeeded but I fumbled through the best I could. I definitely got out of the downward spiral I was in. I had to. I had a little human to take care of. I think what I'm trying to say is that choosing not to have an abortion ended up saving two lives.

I also want to say that I fully understand the personal hell of a woman who is considering abortion for whatever reason and my heart goes out to you. It is the most anguishing, intensely lonely, and gut-wrenching decision you'll ever make. I made my choice and lived with the consequences. As it turns out, it was a good choice but I had no way of knowing that at the time. If you choose otherwise, I have no judgement for you. I'm not in your shoes, I haven't lived your history, and I don't know what either choice is going to mean for your life. I only wish you peace.

[Chinese Dragon]

In the case of a woman who was raped and wants an abortion, then no. In the case of the couple who has to selectively abort a fetus so that another can live, I would say no.

I disagree, killing one person so another can live does not justify the act of murder. If we all adopted the mentality that we can kill a life to save a life, we'd eventually start removing undesirables from the gene pool to better the superiors. Sound familiar? *cough* Hitler *cough* It doesn't matter if the doctors say they both are going to die unless you take action. Let God decide who lives. Abortion is killing regardless of the circumstances or if the mother was raped or not. Contradicting that is like saying if I shoot a celebrity walking down the street that's murder, but if I kill a nobody who wants to jump off a bridge, it's not. No, it doesn't work like that. We don't have the right to choose if a person lives or dies. I wouldn't give the right to kill me to a soul.

[Gene]

Originally Posted by Lola

That missed appointment turned out to be this fine young man and I've been grateful everyday since.

He is a handsome young man. Congratulations on the outcome or consequences of your choice!

I generally think abortion as after sex birth control is an unfortunate choice. I do not demonize those who feel it is the right choice for themselves. I do believe many who choose this option have serious regrets and guilt later.

Since I am a man I will never have to make a choice about removing a fetus from my own body. If my partner and I have a child with serious birth defects it would not be easy to decide to end the unborn life. For me the advice Erin gives about love and the decision to abort being made as an act of love resonates in me.

[Naito]

Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina

We have the right to make that decision, but we also must bear responsibility for the consequences. This is why I am so pro-education on fertility. When I think of all the adults who are actively trying to get pregnant but don't know what time of the month they are fertile it frustrates me a wee bit because most of the women I speak to have no idea when they ovulate, how long an egg is viable/fertilizable, or how many days their cycles are. When I explain it to them they are amazed and shocked by the information. I can't think of anything more basic to teach in school than how babies are created and how to naturally avoid getting pregnant when you don't want to be pregnant and how to get pregnant when you do.

Lola, your son is very handsome and has a beautiful, loving spirit.

That is why I do not undestand why women take birth control pills every day for years if we are only fertile maybe 3 days per month. It is really not rocket science, people often know more about how their dishwasher works then about their own body.

[Pegasus]

Thank you for writing this, Erin. I’ve been curious of your take on abortion ever since learning that souls choose the families they go into.



---------------------

[rubelin]

Originally Posted by Naito

That is why I do not undestand why women take birth control pills every day for years if we are only fertile maybe 3 days per month. It is really not rocket science, people often know more about how their dishwasher works then about their own body.

Actually, an egg generally has to be fertilized within a 24 hour window, but sperm can live up to 7 days in optimum conditions, so the best safe zone is about a week.

but, yeah, it's kinda silly to throw your entire hormonal system out of whack, but it's easier than having to think about it, and sometimes the possibility of an accident is completely unacceptable. Been there, but I'm not doing it any longer.

Erin, thank you for this essay. I've been in both places, once coming from a completely loving place and once coming from a more scared position. I am still not completely over the second one but the first rarely gives me a second thought. I was very close to that first spirit, spoke with her often, but I didn't allow myself to even consider the second one, because I couldn't face thinking that it was a mistake to let it go.