Abortion (Blog)

[Chet]

Well we find it completely acceptable to let people die slowly and in great pain from things like cancer even when they are proven fully consious and aware and we don't even know that about a fetus.

[Megan]

Causing or allowing any sentient creature to die in great pain is something we need to re-think and re-feel, I believe.

The hospice movement has made great strides in raising our consciousness about palliative care, I think.

It seems to me that if we start to give the unborn anesthesia before tearing them limb from limb, that will 'humanize' them to the point where we'll have to think of a human head as a human head, rather than "number 1" before we crush it.

I think that would also be a stride forward in consciousness.

Over the past twenty years, the focus on a patient's quality of life has gained substantial ground. Today in the United States, 55% of U.S. hospitals with over 100 beds offer a palliative care program and nearly one-fifth of community hospitals have palliative care programs.

A relatively recent development is the concept of a dedicated health care team that is entirely geared toward palliative treatment, called a palliative care team.

Palliative care - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Erin Pavlina]

Originally Posted by Megan

Causing or allowing any sentient creature to die in great pain is something we need to re-think and re-feel, I believe.

This is actually one of the reasons that Steve and I are vegans.

[Megan]

OlderWiser, I want to make it clear to you that I put great importance on the suffering you have endured as well.

I endured sexual, emotional and physical abuse as a child, and have felt like an emotional black hole for much of my life.

I hope that we can develop compassion as a culture for the suffering of all sentient creatures, and I believe that will raise the quality of life for everyone.

Megan

[Megan]

Erin, thanks for bringing that up. I have been vegetarian, mostly vegan, for many years, but lately I've been heartstruck about the pain the egg and dairy industries inflict on innocent creatures, and feeling that I don't want to participate in that at all.

I realize that in some cultures, people could not survive without animal products.

Also, when I'm a guest, I eat what's set before me and enjoy it.

[Angela]

Dozens of studies, including those done at the University of San Francisco, show that although fetuses begin forming pain sensors during the 8th week of gestation, the thalamus is not formed until 20 weeks later. The thalamus is the part of the brain that routes information to other areas, and without it, no information can reach the cortex for processing.

I recognize that anti-choicers maintain other arguments, but the argument that 1st or 2nd trimester abortions cause suffering to sentient beings doesn't hold water.

At the third trimester, I would agree that's too late for an abortion.

[Megan]

I agree that the third trimester is a good place to start discussing the moral issue of causing pain to sentient beings, Angela.

I hope Erin does a blog on circumcision some day, because that issue highlights this one, I believe.

Apart from the moral issues of mutilating an infant's intact body without his consent, many circumcisions are still done without anesthesia.

[oberlee]

Originally Posted by Angela

I recognize that anti-choicers maintain other arguments, but the argument that 1st or 2nd trimester abortions cause suffering to sentient beings doesn't hold water.

At the third trimester, I would agree that's too late for an abortion.

I completely agree. Also, you should definitely know you're pregnant by the second trimester, if not before, and if you've waited to do something about it, well, then I agree, you should take responsibility, have the baby and either give it love by keeping it, or give it to another family.

[Dan.Linehan]

from BLISS the premature baby charity...

Babies born at 23 weeks have a 17 per cent chance of survival
Babies born at 24 weeks have a 39 per cent chance of survival
Babies born at 25 weeks have a 50 per cent chance of survival
Twenty years ago, approx 20% of babies weighing less than 1,000gms (2lb 2oz) at birth survived. Nowadays, about 80% survive.

I don't know about life, but survival seems to begin around the 3rd trimester (24 weeks).

[Chinese Dragon]

I apologize for being so harsh in this thread. I'm a Christian, Catholic to be specific, and so have a very Christian view on abortion. Part of the reason I oppose it beyond the point that is reasonable in a forum is that I known many people, my age and older, both male and female, who have an extreme opposition to abortion. I didn't have this by default but some of their attitudes rubbed off on me. Some of them take it so far to say that anyone doing anything that has to do with sex for any reason other than having children is committing a sin. They also don't believe that a couple can let science assist them in having children via external conception because "it's not natural" Others believe that it's bad to be around any member of the opposite sex alone. In a nutshell, they oppose everything God stands against, but also what he doesn't explicitly stand for. I'm not as extreme as them, and in some subjects even dissagree with the majority of the Catholic Church, but the subject of abortion does make me angry. I'm sorry for venting my anger here, it's very unlike me to be disrespectful or dogmatic and hope I don't start any more arguments. It was aspiring to clarity's post that prompted me to apolgize, because like you said I don't know the other side's point of view. Most of the world's problems would be solved if everyone saw it different, and it's great that you make a consious effort to do so. And please nobody think that because of my age I usually respond like I did, I once made a list of reasons why I am not the average 15 year old by any stretch of the imagination. Most of the time I try to respect other people's beliefs even if I don't believe the same things they do, but this time I snapped. I would have apologized last night but the subject of this thread put me into a bad mood. If it weren't for posts being more neutral on this page I probably wouldn't have made this post.

I agree with Megan, you should do a blog post on circumcision, Erin. I oppose circumcision without consent, but not in the way I oppose abortion.

Again, I'm sorry for losing my cool, I shouldn't have gotten involved in this thread the way I did.

[Erin Pavlina]

It's cool, Chinese Dragon. You seem very mature for a 15 year old. I'm sure we can all apprecaite your zeal.

I have strong feelings on circumcision but not sure I'll post a blog entry about it. We'll see... Thanks for the idea though megan.

[Chet]

Some of you might find this article on abortion enlightening - I certainly did.
Daily Kos: "The Only Moral Abortion Is My Abortion"

[oberlee]

Chinese Dragon, thank you for explaining yourself (quite eloquently, more so than the average 35-year old) and your situation. I grew up Catholic, too, although my household was pro-choice, so I just had conflicting things stirring within me when I was 15. I remember having someone come to our CCD (aka, Sunday School, not on Sunday) and show us the horrors of abortion, and feeling very conflicted.

For the record, I think you have EVERY RIGHT to believe what you believe. It's a totally viable viewpoint. Like came up earlier, for instance, killing animals for food. I see why that bothers others, but it doesn't bother me. I have a line drawn where others don't, and it's as solid an opinion as mine is. We all get heated up about abortion because it is, well, sensitive, and many people have personal experience with it, and others don't, but have a strong moral idea about it. Like, I don't believe in the death penalty morally, but if someone killed my child, would I want them dead? Hmmm... Don't know.

Not to say the situations are the same, but I think abortion is an argument that goes around in circles because each side is arguing a different issue, and yet everyone is intending the best for society (well, usually, but in this thread, yes). I live in the San Francisco area, and grew up in the Boston area, so also, my environment was totally different than others. Anecdote: my ex-boyfriend from Oklahoma came to college in Boston and would wear a Pro-Life tee shirt in public, and he didn't understand when I told him he might get beaten up, because in his environment, it was totally cool, like saying, "Go Green!" or whatever, but it Boston, it was a RED FLAG.

Anyway, I don't discredit you for being 15; I credit you and respect you for your intelligence and your eloquence and your integrity. Keep it up.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Chinese Dragon, looking back at my post, I think I could have said what I wanted to say a little more sensitively. I definitely agree that you are not an average 15 year old boy. I think that pretty much everyone gets heated up on this topic, so your zeal is not really the issue to me. I meant to make clear that I was of exactly the same mind as you at your age and argued just as ardently. I think it's always hard for me to listen to a guy's opinion on something related to pregnancy and childbirth because of his total lack of ability to fully understand it...but THAT IS MY PROBLEM, NOT YOURS (I am shouting at myself). I did not mean to say your opinion was invalid at all. I apologize if I came across as condescending. It's something I need to work on.

I am opposed to abortion in the sense that I don't like it, I would never do it and it hurts me to think of babies dying. I do believe that life begins at conception, a major hold-over from my early indoctination but something I have also questioned for myself and still believe. I still believe in choice since I wouldn't want the government to legislate the things I choose to do, but I also would do whatever I could to lessen the need. It's a fine line to walk, at least for me.

[Megan]

Is is just my imagination, or are people of differing viewpoints dialoguing respectfully on the Internet, right here on Erin's abortion thread?

How cool is that!?

Evolution seems to be working nicely.

Or, if you prefer, God is in his heaven, and all is well on earth.

[oberlee]

VERY cool... the thing is, this is not any ol' forum page, it's Erin's and she rocks, and we're all here on this forum to make sense of ourselves, and we're all believers of, or at least interested in, spirituality. In other words, we're out to better ourselves and the world, and we're trying to come together instead of distancing ourselves.

Yay. It's nice to see some love in an abortion thread.

[Matthew Shea]

That's what consistently amazes me about this forum. Very sensitive or even adult topics can be openly discussed without the thread devolving into a shouting match or falling into the gutter. It's probably the most mature forum I've ever seen. It's certainly a credit to Erin and Steve.

[Erin Pavlina]

Thank you all for the sincere compliments. We have found in our experience that the tone the owners of the forum set is indicative of the tone the users will adopt. And it means a lot to us to be able to discuss anything with respect, compassion, understanding, and an open-mind. And we are both very impressed and in love with our readers/visitors. We feel honored and blessed to be running a board where people are so wonderful. So kudos to you all as well!

[Lola]

Originally Posted by Megan

Is is just my imagination, or are people of differing viewpoints dialoguing respectfully on the Internet, right here on Erin's abortion thread?

How cool is that!?

It's VERY cool! I just caught up on the last several posts on this thread. Sheesh - y'all gave me chills!

I always steer far clear of any abortion related discussions IRL because I find them to rarely be true (open, connecting, sharing, respectful, considerate) conversations but rather emotionally fueled, personal view of morality laden, verbal rampages on how everyone should subscribe to the speaker's viewpoint.

As usual, a horse of a different color grazes in this particular corral.

Thanks Erin, Steve, and fellow forum members for a building it.

[Megan]

I agree, Lola, people are saying how they really feel, but there remains a sense of community.

This is how things can be!

And yes, thank you Erin, Steve, fellow forum members, the Law of Attraction, or, if you prefer, God, and all benevolent powers of the Universe that make happy things possible.

[openeyes]

I'd been hesitant to comment on the topic of abortion because it so often does become an inflammatory issue where little communication really occurs. Since that may not be the case here, I'll chime in with my views as a young single white male.

Just the thought of a girlfriend being pregnant with our child and opting for abortion brings tears to my eyes. It would be hard for everyone, and I'd do everything I could to have the chance to raise him/her, even if it isn't the most convenient time in my life right now.

As mentioned before, at this point I would only consider intercourse with a woman I feel I could happily raise a child with. I don't try to get anyone pregnant, but I see it as an inherent possibility, regardless of protection used. I'd rather be celibate or get a vasectomy than deal with an abortion (and men do have to deal with abortions, even though they have no choice in the matter).

I consider life, on some level, to begin at conception if not before (going all the way back through our ancestors). Given that life can only be created from life (basic biology), there's no point at which one can say life has yet to enter it, though exactly what type of life it is at first is open to interpretation.

Whether pain would be involved in the killing or not wouldn't be a deciding factor for me, just as being able to painlessly kill a healthy full grown human wouldn't make it okay to me if it was without his/her consent. Still the info about the thalamus was interesting. I hadn't read about that before.

That said, I don't feel like I can decide this issue for anyone else. Few people treat abortion lightly.

[HumbleDee]

Originally Posted by oberlee

In a black and white world, abortion sounds wrong because it sounds like murder. Chinese Dragon makes the case that you never know when the soul is bound to the body...but why assume it's at conception? If you’re saying killing life is wrong, well, what constitutes “life?” An egg is alive, and so is sperm. Just because something happens, to make another thing happen to make another, ultimately resulting in a fully-formed human child, where do you draw the line? “Life” was always there. We can’t know when consciousness was, either. So, should we “save” all the potential life out there? What about if you have unprotected sex and you DON’T get pregnant? Should I be blamed for the “loss” of that life, albeit a potential life? What if I have protected sex and DO get pregnant, and still choose to have an abortion? What about the eggs that DON’T get fertilized every month? What about the gazillions of sperm that die from lack of meeting with that one perfect egg?

Oberlee, if we are discussing murder, it’s not just the taking of life; it’s the taking of "another human" life. So the question is not when life begins, but when another human is created. Science can offer DNA evidence. Through DNA science can tell whom the sperms and egg belong to. Science can tell the father of an unborn child through DNA. At the moment of conception a new human is formed, that share his/her DNA from the mother and the father. That’s how science is able to tell a child real parent if ever in doubt.

Sperms and Eggs are potential human being; at conception is human being full with potential.

[Megan]

HumbleDee, I agree. It seems to me that abortion chips away at our perception of the value of human life.

Imagine being a child who knows that your mother has selectively eliminated some of your potential siblings. She has the power to do that, and has done that. This energy is put into the family system, and is not directly addressed with the child, in many if not most cases, I would imagine. Even if the child doesn't know about the abortion, he 'knows' the energy has changed. Children feel these things.

I think using violent solutions of any kind 'tears the fabric of reality' in some way we don't really comprehend, i.e., it damages us all, and this accrues. Call it karma, call it emotional baggage, call it what you please. As Erin said, there is a price to pay.

Once you concede to the need for violent solutions, then it begins to seem evident that violent solutions are the best solutions, or at least the most expedient. They may be dirty, but they're relatively quick and cheap. More and more violent solutions are required, it seems.

It sounds like I am a black-and-white thinker about these things, but like Older/Wiser, I have often, often wished I had not been born. I think the lives of unwanted, often abused and neglected children are another holocaust right under our noses. It is a form of living hell. Also, when I was 16, a doctor gave me pills to take that must have been some sort of 'morning-after' thing, so I have been there and know the fear, confusion and desperation.

I'm just concerned that if we rely on abortion to prevent this tragedy, we will ultimately pay for this in the overall deadening of feeling in society in general, a very high price to pay. We need our feelings.

I used to help an Ob-Gyn do home deliveries before Roe-vs-Wade, and she also did illegal abortions. I assisted her with one, and I had a visceral sense of revulsion at what I was doing that went beyond any kind of mental conditioning. It was as if every cell in my body was enveloped in darkness and heaviness. It felt elemental.

When the next girl came in for an abortion, she was a 15-year-old Mormon whose boss had taken advantage of her. She told me she was going to hell for what she was about to do. The doctor was busy, so she and I took a walk. I encouraged her to take some time to think it through.

The doctor was not happy with me, but I think it would have been very irresponsible to do an abortion on a child who was convinced she was going to h