Abortion (Blog)

[fatandugly]

Nimbethril,

Thank you so much for saying everything I was thinking. I was amazed at the lack of respect for women throughout this whole thread. To me, there is no debate on abortion, no opinion to have unless the pregnancy is your own. Manipulation or force towards a woman in this regard is unconscionable, and frankly I'm surprised at Erin's judgmentalness.

[StarieEyed]

"Women don't just go around freely having sex without the use of any contraceptives because they can "just" have an abortion, and anyone who believes this has a very dim view of women indeed."

UM YES YOU ARE WRONG. I've know PLENTY of women in the past 7 years who have had used NO protection just b/c they CAN get an abortion! One gal had something like 7! Another, 2. I think it really depends on your age and sex, I am a 25 y/o female so I've known many women to have abortions and many as "birth conrol." Then you have to wonder if these two free talk about it, how many are there that do it and DON'T talk about it?

[fatandugly]

You haven't been in these women's heads. You cannot make that decision or judgment for another person. You know what they've told you; you didn't have to go through what they did.

[Nimbrethil]

Originally Posted by StarieEyed

"Women don't just go around freely having sex without the use of any contraceptives because they can "just" have an abortion, and anyone who believes this has a very dim view of women indeed."

UM YES YOU ARE WRONG. I've know PLENTY of women in the past 7 years who have had used NO protection just b/c they CAN get an abortion! One gal had something like 7! Another, 2. I think it really depends on your age and sex, I am a 25 y/o female so I've known many women to have abortions and many as "birth conrol." Then you have to wonder if these two free talk about it, how many are there that do it and DON'T talk about it?

I don't believe you for a moment. The only people who parrot this nonsense about women blithely choosing to have abortions because they're too irresponsible to use contraceptives are people who have NO understanding of what abortion is.

Abortion is SURGERY, for starters. Do you honestly believe a woman is going to think that having a surgical procedure (and yes I am aware of chemical abortions, but here I referring to the surgery) is preferable to taking a pill or using a diaphrahm, or having her partner wear a condom?

For that matter, abortion is expensive. Condoms are considerably cheaper.

Better still, abortion is not easy to get. Almost 90% of U.S. counties do NOT have abortion facilities. When you factor in all the constraints: the nearest abortion provider, the money it would cost to get one (which includes not only the cost of the procedure itself, but also possible travel expenses--gas, lodging, food--AND any money lost due to the time taken off work), and the fact that many areas have a narrow window of time--i.e. not after the 20th week, it is NOT nearly as simple as you want to believe.

So don't sit there and tell me that women choose to have abortions over using contraceptives out of laziness or whatever motive you ascribe to them. You obviously think that going in for an abortion is on par with stopping by the grocery store to buy a gallon of milk, and that's so far from the reality it's just sad.

All that aside, I strongly doubt you know a lot of women who choose abortions over contraceptive methods without very good reasons for doing so. Many women have problems with taking the pill. Many may have latex allergies. And, yes, in some cases, abortion may actually be cheaper for a woman. I have one friend who told me that her health insurance covered abortions, but not hormonal birth control. Go figure.

I repeat: women who have abortions in lieu of other forms of birth control fall into one of two categories: those who are genuinely ignorant about sex and reproduction in general, or who don't have access to protection (I used to live in an area where you had to be 18 or older to buy condoms, which makes the concept of safe sex difficult for horny teenagers), and those who have legitimate reasons for not using birth control. As for these women you supposedly know who go around irresponsibly having sex "just cuz" they can have abortions instead, I suspect that you either are getting your information from people OTHER than these women, or that they themselves are not telling you the full story. And given your judgmental attitude, if I had some underlying issue going on, I don't think I'd tell you the truth either. Especially the woman who supposedly has had seven abortions. You're fooling yourself if you think you're going to convince any reasonable person that she found having multiple abortions preferable to using protection.

[StarieEyed]

I'm in CA and we have several Planned Parenthoods within driving distance of me. Thats where these women get thier FREE aboritons and can get FREE birth control. I know two of these women very well, you know them...not at all. They are not young girls, they know where babies come from, gosh one has three already!

[Nimbrethil]

You do realize that your experience does not dictate anyone else's, right?
YOU have several planned parenthoods within driving distance, lucky you. Not all women are that lucky. In my case, the nearest abortion provider is hundreds of miles away. I also know a great many people who have no personal transportation whatsoever and would be in a serious bind if they had to get an abortion. I also know women who had the experience of feeling forced to seek an abortion outside of their community because they would otherwise be ostracized mercilessly.

I am glad that women in your area are fortunate to have abortion facilities nearby. But this is hardly the case for all women, everywhere.

[WRX AJT]

Hey everyone! It's been a while since I've last posted, mainly due to finding a passion (cars and racing) and working a lot.

*I'm not here to intentionally cause any trouble or to make anyone upset. I'm only posting because this is a topic that hits home to me, so please don't try to argue or debate with me. I will admit that I will be the first one to put a fist through a wall if things get heated. However, just take what I say as it is and leave it be. Thank you*

First and foremost, I'm a 22 year old male that was adopted out of Chicago. I was raised in an INCREDIBLE family that offered love, support, knowledge, faith, and of course, the usual childhood spankings. LOL

A little back story: My biological mom was 16 and my biological dad was 17. I was born 6 weeks premature and could not eat or breathe on my own. During the pregnancy my biological birth mom took various over the counter drugs that you aren't supposed to take while being pregnant. Had abortions been a little more "mainstream" back then...I would have probably been aborted as well.

I suppose that I'll start off by saying that I firmly believe that abortion is wrong. The way I see it is that the nanosecond the sperm and egg meet, a new life has begun. If God didn't feel that a new life should be conceived, he would have found other ways to not let it happen.

If you are going to indulge in sex, then you should be responsible for the resulting actions. Just as you are responsible for the consequences of drinking and driving.

However, I will say that I honestly do not know what to think about the whole situation on saving the mothers life by aborting the baby.

Look at it this way. The baby that you aborted could have been the person to find a cure for AIDs or cancer. Heck, he/she might have been the one to end poverty. Yet, you'll never know because you decided to play "god" and end his/her life prematurely.

Ok, so what if the baby will be mentally challenged or have a deformity? Once again, it's not your call to say who lives and dies. Sometimes you have to realize that although the initial outlook might seem bad, there might be a blessing in disguise.

In my eyes, whether in good or bad, you have to play the cards that you've been dealt to the best of your ability.

Some of you might be wondering why I haven't touched on the subject of rape and abortion. To be completely honest, I feel that if I told you how I feel about it that there might be some turmoil created, so I'd rather just leave it alone.

In the end, when you are standing in front of St. Peter at Heavens Gates watching your life...only God will be the one to judge you.

"I am who I am today, because of the choices I made yesterday."

*Once again, I'm not here to upset anyone nor to call anyone out. These are simply my opinions. I do, however, get very hot headed on this subject matter, so if you think otherwise please don't argue with me. I don't feel like fighting.*

[fellowtraveler]

Originally Posted by Nimbrethil

The only people who parrot this nonsense about women blithely choosing to have abortions because they're too irresponsible to use contraceptives are people who have NO understanding of what abortion is.

You're discounting the existence of stupid people, both the parrots and the women themselves.

Perhaps it is disrespectful to call them stupid, but you certainly can't deny there are such people.

[Dannyboy1]

Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina

Use this thread to discuss the following entry from Erin Pavlina's blog:

Abortion

I wholeheartedly agree with your blog! It cannot be put much better than that. The whole argument about abortion would never have to happen if we educated our people and pushed them to be responsible BEFORE they get pregnant and to realize the ramifications if they get pregnant. Irresponsible abortions are a terrible tragedy due to ignorance.

[Dannyboy1]

Originally Posted by Nimbrethil

You do realize that your experience does not dictate anyone else's, right?
YOU have several planned parenthoods within driving distance, lucky you. Not all women are that lucky. In my case, the nearest abortion provider is hundreds of miles away. I also know a great many people who have no personal transportation whatsoever and would be in a serious bind if they had to get an abortion. I also know women who had the experience of feeling forced to seek an abortion outside of their community because they would otherwise be ostracized mercilessly.

I am glad that women in your area are fortunate to have abortion facilities nearby. But this is hardly the case for all women, everywhere.

Of course it's not right that they're ostracized, but that doesn't remove them from responsibility. We are all responsible for our own actions.

[Nimbrethil]

Originally Posted by WRX AJT

I suppose that I'll start off by saying that I firmly believe that abortion is wrong. The way I see it is that the nanosecond the sperm and egg meet, a new life has begun. If God didn't feel that a new life should be conceived, he would have found other ways to not let it happen.

If you are going to indulge in sex, then you should be responsible for the resulting actions. Just as you are responsible for the consequences of drinking and driving.

...

Look at it this way. The baby that you aborted could have been the person to find a cure for AIDs or cancer. Heck, he/she might have been the one to end poverty. Yet, you'll never know because you decided to play "god" and end his/her life prematurely.

If a new life has begun the "nanosecond" that a sperm and egg come together, then God is killing an awful lot of lives He supposedly intended to be born. As much as three-quarters, seventy-five percent, of fertilized eggs are flushed from a woman's body. Miscarriages are COMMON, far more common than pregnancy, and I'm not referring to miscarriages of advanced pregnancies, but those that occur just days or mere weeks following fertilization and conception. Women miscarry all the time without ever having known they were even pregnant.

I am sick to death of the argument that planning to have an abortion is shirking responsibility. If you don't want to have a child, then getting an abortion IS the responsible thing to do. There's never been anything irresponsible about it. What IS irresponsible is having a child you don't want or can't raise. There are already too many unwanted born children in the world. No one who wants a child is being deprived because of all those nasty, hateful, irresponsible aborters. And, um, overpopulation, anyone?

Finally, the argument that if you abort you may be killing the next Mozart or Einstein or Pasteur is just a stupid one and always has been. It could just as easily be said that by NOT aborting a fetus you could be bringing the world it's next Hitler or Stalin. No one who uses this moronic argument--and it IS moronic--ever considers the flip side to it, because it utterly discredits that line of "reasoning." In short, it's an emotional argument, not based on anything approaching reality.

[Nimbrethil]

Originally Posted by Dannyboy1

Of course it's not right that they're ostracized, but that doesn't remove them from responsibility. We are all responsible for our own actions.

That's not even remotely coherent. What does the one have to do with the other? Nothing. Being ostracized doesn't have anything to do with whether or not a woman is being irresponsible by having an abortion, but to do with self-righteous people refusing to mind their own business.

Besides that, I haven't suggested that a woman who chooses to abort is somehow not responsible for her actions. So, again, what does public ostracization have to do with an individual's responsibility? What's the connection?

Of course, as far as I'm concerned, abortion is not in the least irresponsible. Knowing, while you're having sex, that you may have to be prepared to abort, IS being responsible. Far more so than giving birth to an unwanted child.

[Dannyboy1]

Originally Posted by Nimbrethil

Of course, as far as I'm concerned, abortion is not in the least irresponsible. Knowing, while you're having sex, that you may have to be prepared to abort, IS being responsible. Far more so than giving birth to an unwanted child.

You need to read the post I was responding to if you want to understand what I wrote.

It is irresponsible to have sex without protection if you don't want a baby. Then, to abort afterward because it would hamper your lifestyle is something you'll have to deal with the rest of your life. Abortion should not be used as a casual form of birth control.

[Nimbrethil]

Originally Posted by Dannyboy1

You need to read the post I was responding to if you want to understand what I wrote.

It is irresponsible to have sex without protection if you don't want a baby. Then, to abort afterward because it would hamper your lifestyle is something you'll have to deal with the rest of your life. Abortion should not be used as a casual form of birth control.

Thanks for the patronizing tone, but, er, I did read it. I read Erin's original post, and every comment in this thread.

What you, and others, refuse to understand, is that MOST abortions come from women who WERE using protection. This notion that most abortions were done by women just wantonly having unprotected sex? It's a myth. Am I saying that it's rare or that it never happens? Of coures not. But it is by no means as common as you anti-choice types would prefer to believe because it allows you to regard women as capricious and immature.

Oh, and "hampering your lifestyle" is a really cheap way of trivializing just how life-altering pregnancy and child-rearing is.

There is NOTHING remotely "casual" about abortion, regardless of a woman's reasons for getting one. I can't believe anyone seriously believes this. Do you know what abortion involves? How the HELL can you call it casual, ever? This just proves my contention that most people who are against abortion have this ridiculous notion that it's just like an impulse trip to the grocery store. In, out, all you've lost is a few minutes of your time, no harm, no foul. That...is so not the reality of the decision to abort, or the process of getting one.

And as far as abortion being you'll have to deal with for the rest of your life? That warrants the biggest "Duh" response of the year. But, you know, SO IS HAVING A CHILD. Having a child is no less a permanent decision that you'll have to "deal with" for the rest of your life. But I note that there's a presumed negative quality to your statement, as if any woman who aborts is doomed to regret for the rest of her life. Sorry, but, um, no. There are literally thousands of women who've aborted, for reasons YOU would self-righteously call irresponsible, or "casual", who don't in the least bit regret their decision. I'm friends with several. I could also direct you to the website of I'm Not Sorry.net: Celebrating The Right To Choose, a website that counters everyone who insists on saying "Everyone I know who had an abortion regrets it," as if that somehow proves that all women, everywhere, will ultimately mourn the loss of their baby and wallow in remorse and guilt for the rest of their life.

[fatandugly]

I've noticed that many of the vocal anti-choice people I've known tend to be males who somehow identify with a fetus and not those pesky things that they grow in - what are they called? Oh yes, women, who think they might have rights to decide what to do with their bodies.

Sorry you feel so insecure about your own life. But going into the territory of what "might have" been is utterly pointless. If your parents had waited ten minutes to have sex, you wouldn't have been born either. None of us knows the future. Even less do we know what might have happened in a chain of events that never was set off. We all make the best choices we can and move on.

Abortion is expensive, painful, and hard to get. I know of no place where birth control is free, let alone abortion, including Planned Parenthood. You are trivializing an experience you know nothing of.

I am surprised at the judgmental attitude I have seen so much here, and the "Well, it's okay if she does it for X reason, but not for Y reason" equivocating about a subject that doesn't touch them.

I don't see too many of these people doing anything for the many of existing children who are in poverty, homeless, or needing medical care they can't afford.

Your opinion on abortion is about as relevant as my opinion on whether or not you should have plastic surgery.

[Mewwy]

To look at a soul's perspective, asking how could there be a contract between a rapist and a victim, is like asking why there are so much suffering in the world.

No one agrees that they would like to be born in poverty, the way no one agrees that they want to get raped.

The "contract" between a rapist and a victim does not mean the victim agree to be taken advantaged of.

Personally I don't believe there is a soulful "contract" involved in the case where pregnancy occur because of rape. But if you assume every life has a purpose, including fetuses, maybe incidences of rape are to teach people about something - but people has the free will to not learn the lesson, such as how to have compassion and respect, which rapists obviously do not have.

On the soul level, life's purpose too often cannot make sense with justice. We can only hope that all people have enough free will to perpetuate justice and love in order to ease suffering.

[StarieEyed]

"What you, and others, refuse to understand, is that MOST abortions come from women who WERE using protection."

100% Of the people I know who have had an abortion were using NO protection! I know of about twenty abortions and none of those gals/guys were using protection. 100% ...

[StarieEyed]

So b/c you don't have an abortin clinic near you means that *NO WOMEN* have sex with out protection knowing they will have an abortion if a pregnancy results from that sex? OK BUDDY!

[Dannyboy1]

Originally Posted by Nimbrethil

Thanks for the patronizing tone, but, er, I did read it. I read Erin's original post, and every comment in this thread.

What you, and others, refuse to understand, is that MOST abortions come from women who WERE using protection.

Where did you get your statistics???? Most women who have an abortion were using protection???? LOL.

That's just not true. If a condum is 99% effective, just do the math. Your statistics are impossible.

[Nimbrethil]

Originally Posted by StarieEyed

So b/c you don't have an abortin clinic near you means that *NO WOMEN* have sex with out protection knowing they will have an abortion if a pregnancy results from that sex? OK BUDDY!

I didn't say that. Don't put words in my mouth.

[Nimbrethil]

Dannyboy,

Condoms are not the only contraceptive on the market, and they do break. There is no such thing as a 100% effective contraceptive, and the 99% effectiveness of them is due ONLY to proper use. Ignorance of the things that can lower the effectiveness of various methods is common. It is my experience, for instance, that a great many women have no idea that antacids, for one example, can neutralize the pill.

Do you realize, Dannyboy, that if I understand her own posts correctly, Erin herself rejects your notions of having to face judgment at "Heaven's Gates"? I find it interesting that you so wholeheartedly commend her post when the chances are good that she rejects your Christian view of God, the afterlife, and Judgment Day. Then again, I've noticed a few readers here who have referenced religious beliefs about being judged for abortion that make me wonder if they are aware of what Erin has said about the afterlife (because it soundly contradicts the Christian worldview)

I am bowing out of this discussion because I'm fed up with the misogyny and judgmental crap. I posted a question for Erin and that's all I am now interested in.

[Dannyboy1]

Originally Posted by Nimbrethil

What you, and others, refuse to understand, is that MOST abortions come from women who WERE using protection.

This cannot be true. Birth control is 99% effective. Very rarely (less than 1%) of the time does it not work. The women may SAY they used birth control. That doesn't mean they did. Also, you have to be prepared to take that risk if you're going to have sex.

I don't think there should be a law, but I think people should be responsible enough to realize the risks before they do it and accept the result if they're going to have sex.

[Dannyboy1]

Originally Posted by fatandugly

I've noticed that many of the vocal anti-choice people I've known tend to be males who somehow identify with a fetus and not those pesky things that they grow in - what are they called? Oh yes, women, who think they might have rights to decide what to do with their bodies.

But I don't agree with most abortions at all and I don't think it should be used as casual birth control. By the way, I've noticed that most "pro-choice" people are people who have never had a baby and are afraid of having one. Women do have a right to decide what they do with their bodies, but they should realize they are hurting another life when they do it. They shouldn't just pretend it's nothing to make themselves feel better.

[funchy]

What a thoughtful post & Blog page. It's nice to see that we can discuss such an important topic without people taking offense. Thank you, Erin, for bringing this up.

[funchy]

Originally Posted by Dannyboy1

Where did you get your statistics???? Most women who have an abortion were using protection???? LOL.

That's just not true. If a condum is 99% effective, just do the math. Your statistics are impossible.

A condom isn't 99% effective in the real world.

Also realize how these stats work. The contraceptive company does a study on a group of couples. They look to see how many women out of 100 get pregnant that year. That is the failure rate. So in Year 1 there might be 2 accidental pregnancies. In Year 2, there may be about 1-2 more. Over a lifetime, many women end up with accidentals pregnancies.

Also consider those are controlled lab numbers. In the real world, there may be more failures. For example, did you know some medicines can diminish the effectiveness of The Pill? Did you know some lubricants break down latex, increasing the chances it'll break? Why aren't these important facts in big lettering on the front of the packaging?

Be aware that although the egg is in the right place for only a few days a month, those few days can vary. Predicting ovulation is proven to be ineffective as a BC method. As a woman I can tell you how easily the period can vary due to stress, changes in diet, or hormone fluctuations. If the period is off by a week, so can the ovulation.

I want everyone to realize that an abortion is expensive, is scary, and has risks associated with it. It's can leave a woman with an infection or permanent scarring. It can leave her with emotional scarring, and some women need therapy to deal with it. It can affect a woman's fertility for the rest of her life. It is not generally covered by insurance, and unlike birth control that's available at any drug store, it may be an hour's drive to a clinic. The clinics don't want people making any rash decisions, so expect to make multiple visits. I have never met anyone who uses it as a casual form of birth control.

[funchy]

Originally Posted by Dannyboy1

I've noticed that most "pro-choice" people are people who have never had a baby and are afraid of having one.

How do you know it's just fear of having one?

Is it possible some people just do not want or cannot have a baby? Why do some parents assume that everyone eventually wants babies and that babies may everyone's life complete? And that every pregnancy is risk-free and happy?

Why don't we talk about the death rate due to childbirth? I almost lost one of my oldest friends when her pregnancy gave her several hypertension(?) and other health issues. I am not exaggerating when I saw she was told she may not live long enough to give birth.

Personally, I am pro-choice, but I think I do want kids eventually and I am very much pro-family ... but these are my personal decisions, and nobody else has a right to judge.

Women do have a right to decide what they do with their bodies, but they should realize they are hurting another life when they do it. They shouldn't just pretend it's nothing to make themselves feel better.

Define "hurting"? For a living thing to be aware of pain, it needs to be aware. You need a developed nervous system in order to do that. Even a normal baby born after a full 9 months in the womb is only partially developed neurologically, and the brain wiring needs time to finish connecting. There is great debate at what age the infant or fetus becomes "aware" or has a "soul", but without any evidence it all comes down to personal beliefs.

I don't think anyone pretends it's "nothing". Woman who do it aren't cold, callous monsters. Vilifying them isn't constructive.

Do we pretend it's "nothing" to decide to have a baby? These are world-changing decisions for a couple, either way.

[Dannyboy1]

Originally Posted by funchy

How do you know it's just fear of having one?

Is it possible some people just do not want or cannot have a baby? Why do some parents assume that everyone eventually wants babies and that babies may everyone's life complete? And that every pregnancy is risk-free and happy?
I don't think anyone pretends it's "nothing". Woman who do it aren't cold, callous monsters. Vilifying them isn't constructive.

Do we pretend it's "nothing" to decide to have a baby? These are world-changing decisions for a couple, either way.

Women who CAN'T have babies have nothing to do with it. The one's who don't WANT a baby shouldn't have sex or should use protection. I never said any of the things you're arguing against. I never said I assumed everyone wants babies or any of the other stuff you're talking about so I'm not going to respond to it.

[SaySay]

Originally Posted by Dannyboy1

You need to read the post I was responding to if you want to understand what I wrote.

It is irresponsible to have sex without protection if you don't want a baby. Then, to abort afterward because it would hamper your lifestyle is something you'll have to deal with the rest of your life. Abortion should not be used as a casual form of birth control.

Abortion is by definition birth control. It is a way of controlling a birth (or lack thereof). There is nothing casual about 300 dollars, but it is certainly birth control.

[SaySay]

Originally Posted by Nimbrethil

I'm Not Sorry.net: Celebrating The Right To Choose

Nimbrethil - thank you for your strength and the logic and sensibility you bring to this thread. You have more patience than I.

Also, OMG thanks for this link, just what I've been looking for forever! I feel the exact same way about my decision.

[SaySay]

Originally Posted by Dannyboy1

This cannot be true. Birth control is 99% effective. Very rarely (less than 1%) of the time does it not work. The women may SAY they used birth control. That doesn't mean they did. Also, you have to be prepared to take that risk if you're going to have sex.

I don't think there should be a law, but I think people should be responsible enough to realize the risks before they do it and accept the result if they're going to have sex.

Abortion IS a way of being responsible. Period.

Also, as has already been pointed out, condoms (what you are calling 'birth control') are only 99% effective (sic) when used correctly, which they are *often* not.