Abortion (Blog)

[Sentient]

I realize this has the potential to be an unpopular post, but I'm just generally curious what your all reaction is to the chapter about abortion in Freakonomics. For those who didn't read the book, it's basically a collection of essays where he takes a question and then uses some strategies and tools from economics to break down a mound of data and come up with some intersting theories. He wrote a chapter about how people choose their names, and whether there is cheating in Sumo wrestling.

I think the opening chapter was on the sudden drop in the crime rate in the mid 90's (I think it was mid 90's, but don't get caught up in the details). Basically everyone was attributing it to tougher policing and better law enforcement strategies. He took a look at some criminal data and came up with an interesting hypothesis. Basically, right after Roe v Wade, there was a jump in abortions. Many of those babies that were aborted would have been reaching the age range right around the mid 90's where people are most likley to commit crimes. Hence, it is plausible that if you're looking for reasons to explain the drop in crime, it had less to do with new strategies used by law enforcement, and actually a significant amount to do with the fact that those predisposed to become criminals were never born in the first place. So does that have any bearing on whether those abortions were more acceptable or not? It's a variable that I could often see operating independently from whether the mother makes a love or fear based decision.

Questions like this have always bothered me. This is a controversial form of it. However, I often wonder what the nature of free will is when so much can be predicted statistically in the aggregate. For example, how does Wal Mart know how many bags of tootsie rolls to stock? I don't think many people go in to the store thinking they're coming out with tootsie rolls, but in aggregate, maybe about 3% of us (just to pick a number) end up doing just that. And it's always just about 3% and that's the reason they never have too many and they never run out. So on that day that you decided to pick up those delicious sweets did you make a free decision or not?

By talking about abortion in this post, I'm just upping the ante and asking the difficult question: "is the life that someone is likely to lead appropriate to consider when weighing an abortion?" If your baby is likely to, lets say, be a criminal (insert your own..disabled, drug addicted, abusive, etc) is it better if you abort him? What if he's 100% likely? What if he's 99% likely? What if he's just 1% likely? How in the world would you ever choose to draw the line at some specific point? It's not a fun question, but I don't think you can have a coherent view on this subject without being willing to answer it.

[Chinese Dragon]

I don't believe abortion is the answer even if they are likely to grow up to be a criminal... And all this stuff about doing it out of love, I doubt a murder victim would say their killer truly loved them.

I still can't believe that the human mind can be so sickening to think that this is acceptable... How do these people live with themselves?

I'd like to tell this to every person who thinks abortion is for the greater good: Try telling an abortion survivor that it's good that their parents wanted them dead. Yes, I went there. Abortion is by definition killing babies, blatant murder.

[Erin Pavlina]

Chinese Dragon, how do you feel about the mom who terminates her pregnancy because she will die if she has the baby? Either because she is delaying treatment for her cancer or due to some other condition?

[Naito]

Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina

Chinese Dragon, how do you feel about the mom who terminates her pregnancy because she will die if she has the baby? Either because she is delaying treatment for her cancer or due to some other condition?

Your example Erin, is very extreme. Let's face it, most women abort because of social circumstances, finances, state of their relationship, etc., so they do it out of fear. Rape, incest, or having to abort to save your life are very, very rare and in those instances you have to listen to your conscience. I would not be able to say what is right and what is wrong in such a case.
I agree with Chinese Dragon, and this is even though I consider myself a feminist. I just do not like diluting ethics and morality to make everybody comfortable.
Angie

[Chet]

So we all have opinions about the 'ethics' of abortion. What I fail to understand is why so many people think they should try and impose their ethics on others.
If you think its murder, don't do it. Thats fine.
But to try and stop others who may have very good reasons is wrong.
Erin is right, prevention would be best, but I have yet to see the 'right-to-life' people out there offering to adopt all the babies or even so much as handing out condoms.
It seems to me there must be more at work here than 'right-to-life', not sure what ... a wish for more poor people to overfill and tax the planet? More fodder for the industrial-prison complex? could be lots of things I guess.

[Andrew Brunelle]

There are other options out there besides abortion. I do not agree with the concept of abortion, but looking at the big picture, with the overpopulation in the world and all the problems that brings, abortion is a choice that I can totally respect regardless of circumstances. It is possible that the life that's aborted could be someone who is a great leader or a humanitarian. I do believe it is murder, but I do not impose my views on others. It is up to them to make that final decision. It is then up to the mother to decide if giving up a source of great joy is worth it. And sometimes it is. The challenge is suspending judgment.

[OlderWiser]

In the blog entry, Erin wrote:

It means removing the concept of rape from our society.

Bit confused about that point. What do you mean by that?

[Erin Pavlina]

I read once somewhere that there are some societies on our planet who don't even have a word for rape because to force sex on someone is completely unheard of. I believe it's possible to raise our future generations to look upon the act of rape as an incredulous act that just isn't done.

Years ago I read in a book that 70% of men said they would rape a woman if they KNEW they could get away with it. Astounded me. It was only the threat of being caught that stopped them, not some sort of morality.

[carenkh]

Originally Posted by Chinese Dragon

Abortion is by definition killing babies, blatant murder.

In your opinion. I don't believe the soul enters the body until the "quickening", usually around week 14 after conception. Until then, it is *potential* for a life, but not a life. I also believe if I had been aborted, I would have come back at a time more appropriate for my mom, or would have found another family. I believe in everlasting life. I had an abortion when I was 15 - no regrets. That child would have had one screwed-up childhood. I also chose not to abort a child when I was 26 - single, but more ready to be a parent. Both of these choices were made with prayer and deep introspection.

[OlderWiser]

Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina

I read once somewhere that there are some societies on our planet who don't even have a word for rape because to force sex on someone is completely unheard of. I believe it's possible to raise our future generations to look upon the act of rape as an incredulous act that just isn't done.

Right. Okay. That makes sense. I was sure you couldn't be saying what I, on first reading, thought I read.

Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina

Years ago I read in a book that 70% of men said they would rape a woman if they KNEW they could get away with it. Astounded me. It was only the threat of being caught that stopped them, not some sort of morality.

It's partly in the metaphors we use to describe sex. Sex is seen as a competitive game (getting to bases, for example) and as a prize at the end of a conquest. War between the sexes, etc.

So, yes, actually, it probably COULD be done to change the society so that rape is just something that isn't done, and sex isn't a prize to withhold or to be taken, but it would take a lot of reprogramming and several generations to do it.

[Red Willow]

I will post the unpopular reply and open myself up to possible flames. That's fine by me.

I had an abortion when I was younger. No, I didn't have any life-threatening circumstances, but I was just out of college, in a not-so-stable relationship with a pseudo-boyfriend, and just about to take a new job out in the Alaskan wilderness.

I will say this: the environment at the clinic was very love-based. Some of you may take offense to that. But this was my experience. The (mostly) women who worked at the clinic displayed such love. The women who were getting abortions included a high-school senior about to go to college on a basketball scholarship, a young married mother who already had a full-plate at home with two small children, and others in similar circumstances. Whereas other societies would demand of women to go through with the pregnancies whether they really want to or not, I felt very proud to live in a society that allowed women the freedom to live their lives according to their wishes.

In the end, while Erin says it's ok to have an abortion to save a woman's physical life, it's not okay to save her other life--I mean her hopes her dreams her plans.

It's completely subjective to say when an abortion is OK and when it's not. I'm pro-choice, so I believe that any woman who feels an abortion is the best decision for her should have the right to make that choice.

What if a woman caused a miscarriage by accident? Maybe she took a medication she shouldn't have. Or what if an egg was fertilized while on BC pills, or the MAP, or the IUD, but never implanted. Is that murder? Or is it only murder if you knowingly killed your fetus.

Is that not the same as accidentally killing a born person by misfiring a gun or accidentally filling the prescription bottle with poison like in "it's a wonderful life?"

What if you are a woman in a very controlling marriage with a husband who refuses birth control? Is that rape? What if you knowingly got so drunk at a party that you made yourself vulnerable to rape? Are you not responsible for your fetus' life then?

What if your birth control failed you? If the answer is that you knew there was a potential to get pregnant with BC and you took the risk, I'll follow it up. Isn't it also possible to get raped at any time any day, like when you're walking home from work? How do you take responsibility for that?

What if you're the father? What's your responsibility there? What if you're against abortion and your wife/girlfriend decides to get one? Will you not be "judged" in "heaven" for not stopping her from MURDERING her tiny fetus. I mean, you could have done something, anything, locked her up against her will and forced her to give birth for the sake of saving this LIFE!!!!

This whole argument is ridiculous. Morality is subjective. Always has been always will be. More of us are indirectly involved with the deaths and suffering of many more people on a daily basis than are ever affected by abortion. That diamond on your finger? Someone may have died so you can buy it. The electricity that powers the computer your using right now? Ask the dead miners in WV and Utah (hey, you could've used solar panels, I'm just sayin'). Etcetera, etcetera.

[Chinese Dragon]

Originally Posted by carenkh

I don't believe the soul enters the body until the "quickening", usually around week 14 after conception.

What is your reasoning for believing that? There is no scientific evidence that says the soul doesn't enter the body until then. You can't draw a line for something binary (soul in the body) in a hazy region like "has quickening started?" Being experienced with computers I know it's a very big mistake to try to say a fuzzy signal is true or false when there's no clearly defined boundaries. You just can't be sure. Are you willing to gamble with a child's life? The soul can be in a body and not move, and even if you believe it can't, then killing the body the baby is going to live in isn't ok.

Originally Posted by carenkh

Until then, it is *potential* for a life, but not a life.

HA! I bet an pro-choice doctor told you that. Do you realize that myth still exists because it makes money for doctors performing abortion on pregnant mothers questioning abortion? Again, no scientific reason to believe that. A child learning to read has the "potential" to read, but can't read. People won't stop someone from learning how to read, but they will stop a life from living. How about that.

That child would have had one screwed-up childhood.

Better a screwed up childhood than no childhood. You don't know for certain that people reincarnate. Of course, if everyone got a new body when they died (which is very unlikely when you take the increasing population into account) then murder wouldn't be such an atrocity. It would be more ok. That's pretty disempowering, which is why I don't believe in reinarnation. I too believe in everlasting life, but that doesn't mean you get to live on Earth twice.

Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina

Chinese Dragon, how do you feel about the mom who terminates her pregnancy because she will die if she has the baby? Either because she is delaying treatment for her cancer or due to some other condition?

Those kinds of abortions are very rare, and most of the time it's because the doctor says the mother's life depends on it when it really doesn't so they get paid to perform an abortion. Abortion still isn't ok in that case though, it's not up to us to decide who lives and who dies. In fact, I'd view it as a plus to not do an abortion in that case. The baby is much younger and has never had a taste of life at all that it will remember so if one or the other is going to die, the baby should live. It's like that joke of the plane going down with 3 passengers and only two parachutes. There's a chinese guy, a father, and a son. The dad says "Son, you take the parachute because I've already lived a full life. You've got your whole life ahead of you. I'll go down with the plane." And the son replies "It's ok daddy. The chinese guy took my backpack."

In spite of my forum name, I'm not chinese, otherwise I wouldn't have cited this joke.

[Gene]

Originally Posted by Chet

but I have yet to see the 'right-to-life' people out there offering to adopt all the babies or even so much as handing out condoms.
It seems to me there must be more at work here than 'right-to-life', not sure what ... a wish for more poor people to overfill and tax the planet? More fodder for the industrial-prison complex? could be lots of things I guess.

I am not involved in this but I know people who are opposed to abortion and offer adoption and placement for the children if brought to term. There are reasonable people who work on solutions among both the anti and pro groups.

The news of course covers those demonstrating in the streets and committing violent or near violent acts because that is what people will watch.

[carenkh]

From the forum rules:

Exercise good judgment, reasonableness, and mutual respect - This is a community for smart people who share an interest in personal growth, so please treat it as such. Personal attacks as well as profane, pornographic, racist, sexist, or otherwise demeaning or offensive messages will not be tolerated. Recognize that there's a human being behind every post, and behave accordingly.

and

Exercise cultural and religious sensitivity - A wide variety of belief systems are represented here. Feel free to challenge any belief system, but honor others' right to choose their own beliefs. It isn't necessary to be "politically correct," but it is necessary to show respect.

Just a reminder.

[OlderWiser]

Originally Posted by Chinese Dragon

Better a screwed up childhood than no childhood.

I disagree. Having had a screwed up childhood full of every kind of abuse you can name, and having, as an adult, spent many years trying to sort it all out and come through it with something resembling sanity and dignity, I actually would have preferred to be aborted. Apparently, that was an option (despite the fact that it was illegal at that time).

Can't tell you how many times I've cursed the day I was born. I'm in my forties now and while for the most part I do all right, I still sometimes wish my mother had just gone through with it and not brought me into the world. Bringing a child into the world to abuse it is, in my opinion, a lot worse than terminating the pregnancy, and I say that as someone who was conceived by accident and who did "trap" my mother into an unhappy marriage (or so she likes to believe) and who DOES wish that I hadn't had to come here and endure the stuff I have.

Thirty-plus years of continual pain and ongoing difficulty as a result of the horrible family situation in which I grew up... yeah, I'm just SO glad the idiot woman who is my mother made the decision that she should go through with her unwanted pregnancy and raise her unwanted child in painful, abusive, hurtful circumstances. Yay. What a fine moral person she is.

Originally Posted by Chinese Dragon

Try telling an abortion survivor that it's good that their parents wanted them dead.

My mother, point blank, didn't want me. She made that crystal clear to me throughout my life. I was a burden, I was a troublemaker, I was a "problem child", I was what kept her from succeeding in life, I was the cause of everything bad in her life. Try growing up knowing that your mother hates you and see what that does to your self-perception and your spiritual development.

I am, as I said, getting to the point where I've mostly moved past that, but even after being estranged from my parents for ten years, even after years of therapy and soul searching, even after all kinds of measures taken toward healing and growth, there is still bitterness and there is always the fear that maybe I really AM all those hateful things...

I don't particularly care to be alive. I don't think this world is that great of a place to be. It has some pretty amazing moments, and sometimes I feel pretty okay to be here, but overall... Nup. Life here on this spinning mudball isn't all that great. If I'd never been born, that would be fine.

[Maguru]

No female should be judged on her decision to have an abortion whatever the circumstances. No-one has lived her life or can. I can't imagine the effect that decision has on these females lives and my heart goes out to every one of you.

[Red Willow]

Chinese dragon--It costs more to deliver a baby and pay for post-partum hospital care than to perform an abortion btw.

[Chinese Dragon]

Originally Posted by Red Willow

Chinese dragon--It costs more to deliver a baby and pay for post-partum hospital care than to perform an abortion btw.

Of course it does. But that doesn't make abortion ok... There's only one way to have to pay for post-partum hospital care, and that can be avoided by not having sex... In my opinion if someone's not willing to have a baby then they shouldn't be having sex, that's half the purpose of sex after all...

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Chinese Dragon

Let God decide who lives.

That presumes that a god exists, and I do not.

Erin, I respect your responsible inquiry into the morality of abortion, but I hope that a woman who is facing this decision is not terrorized by the idea of possible future spiritual regret. Like any decision in her life, it is possible that a woman may regret having had an abortion, and she should consider that long and hard, but having an abortion will not damn your soul.

In what I hope is our age of reason, we would be wise to make decisions about whether or not we're able and willing to bear and raise a child based on rational factors.

I am not in favor of abortions -- I am in favor of a woman's right to choose for herself, free of religious or spiritual bullying from others. A woman is able to realize for herself what the correct choice is.

[oberlee]

Okay, I just have to put in my 2 cents here because this is a charged subject for me...

I recently had an abortion; it was about 2 months ago, in fact. I am a 28-year-old in a very happy relationship, and we have 2 kids to take care of (they’re not mine—they’re my partner’s), so I am the perfect age, technically, to take on this responsibility. However, I never regretted my decision to have the abortion.

My decision did come from love, contrary to what many of you on this thread believe. My decision came from love of my partner, his children, and where we are right now. I see my relationship to him as my first priority, and I want to cultivate that until we’re ready (we’ve been together 2 years, and we're not ready right now). Secondary to that, and perhaps not as convincing, is that economically it’s not the right time for us. Thirdly, as actors, we’re in the middle of our careers right now and want to put our energy into that at this time.

I don’t dispute that some people are incredibly happy that they choose not to have them, or that some are devastated after they do; I just think that no one can speak for me (hey—if you believe in subjective reality, then my feelings on it are all that matter). I won’t say it wasn’t sad, or that I didn’t cry or feel any loss, but I never regretted it. I do not feel a karmic deficiency because of this, and I believe that that child’s spirit understands my motives and my love for him/her as well; I asked him/her to return in a few years when our decision to have a baby was complete.

In a black and white world, abortion sounds wrong because it sounds like murder. Chinese Dragon makes the case that you never know when the soul is bound to the body...but why assume it's at conception? If you’re saying killing life is wrong, well, what constitutes “life?” An egg is alive, and so is sperm. Just because something happens, to make another thing happen to make another, ultimately resulting in a fully-formed human child, where do you draw the line? “Life” was always there. We can’t know when consciousness was, either. So, should we “save” all the potential life out there? What about if you have unprotected sex and you DON’T get pregnant? Should I be blamed for the “loss” of that life, albeit a potential life? What if I have protected sex and DO get pregnant, and still choose to have an abortion? What about the eggs that DON’T get fertilized every month? What about the gazillions of sperm that die from lack of meeting with that one perfect egg?

Absurd, I know, but there needs to be a line drawn somewhere. Everyone’s drawing a line between “OK” and “murder,” and our lines are different. Pro-choicers put it during the pregnancy, usually within the first 2 trimesters, but even that is tricky. Is it wrong to have an abortion during the 3rd trimester? In most cases, yeah, I kind of think so. But then I’m in an even grayer region. Pro-lifers do it from conception. But, what if my body miscarries the body because of my food intake and what vitamins I’m consuming, or consuming too much of? Or, maybe we just draw it where the staunchest of Christians put it (not all—only the staunchest): no sex without intent to produce a child?

That, ultimately, seems to make the most sense, if you’re being black and white about it. Drawn to this conclusion, it’s stupid and absurd, and I think the best thing is for each couple or woman to decide for themselves.

I respect Erin’s opinion on this, as I do Chinese Dragon’s and everyone else’s; again, it’s individual, and you can only control your own actions. The thing is, since different opinions don’t make sense in my reality, then to me, my decision is the right one. For others, it would be perceived by them as wrong, and it would be the BAD choice.

Lastly, it seems silly to put the lives of people that are actually HERE, i.e., myself and my own family, second to someone that is less than an inch long and who is, ultimately, only a potential person (30% of fetuses are miscarried).

And to anyone out there in this position, educate yourself, go to an understanding, loving clinic (as I did), understand EVERYTHING about your fetus and the procedure, and make only—repeat ONLY—the right decision for YOU.