Lets Kill James Ray?????

[Andwan]

Erin,being a member of the self-help community,how do you fell about the James Ray case?I mean,he was a speaker of the secreat,so whats up with that whole sweat lounge thing anyway??Why not LoA your way to inner purification..That was thepoint of The Secreat anyway right??I know,I know there are different paths to enlightment,but seriously Erin..How do yoy feel about James Ray???

[Erin Pavlina]

I think he made some bad decisions that were really bad judgment. I hope you are not seriously suggesting we kill someone for any reason.

His viewpoints are still very sound, but he made a huge mistake in their implementation. And he'll pay for that mistake.

[Andwan]

Oh Thanks Erin,and no i wasnt serioous about killing the guy..Besides,the media is doing a good enough job at that......

[alexb5784]

I agree, let's not kill him, lol. He screwed up BIG TIME.

I've read the story and it's very tragic. He went too far with his "Sweat Lodge". The concept made no sense in the first place. It sounded like an extreme but foolish version of fire-walking mixed with primal fear therapy. So weird. They should have made it safer by having medical professionals on-hand. They had nothing.

Here's an update on the trial: Victim's family: Seeking improvement and looking to become better – In Session: - CNN.com Blogs

[Erin Pavlina]

Related to that, I burned my feet horribly at Tony Robbin's firewalk seminar. He had told us in advance there would be medical personnel standing by, but for the life of me I could not find a single one, and when I asked staff there, they didn't know where the nurses were either. I was so frustrated. If you do anything at a seminar that risks human lives, you gotta have medical people at the ready in my opinion.

[JSB]

This seems to me to be the logical and expected consequence of a commercial culture that isolates individual techniques from within complex, multifaceted spiritual traditions that are integrated within a given geographic, cultural, and temporal context and then repackages and "mix-n-matches" them as quick and easy consumer items.

A sweat lodge ceremony (like many other spiritual techniques and ceremonies) is an organic element of a larger whole, incomplete outside of it's natural context, and has it's own meaning and function; it is not a one-size-fits-all consumer product to be bought and sold.

Ray was foolish enough for not taking the proper precautions, but even if he had, the man had no business running such an activity in the first place (even if he had the legal right to do so).

How would devout Christians feel if someone was selling "Jesus Cookies" on EBay for $199.95, "Guaranteed to Save Your Soul!"? The Eucharist has deep significance in the context of the Christian religion --- it's not a "Jesus Cookie" (and communion wafers don't kill people). Likewise, who is Ray to cut and paste from a Native American tradition he is not a member of, and in which he has neither mastery, wisdom nor authority?

I suppose Native American people have been screwed over long enough that this is just a minor insult in a long line of atrocities, but frankly, even aside from causing these deaths, James Ray was acting like a f**king idiot. Let's hope he learns something positive from this sad situation and leaves the idiocy behind.

Erin, how did Robbins and his team react when they discovered you had been injured? Did they recognize their failure to provide medical attention? Do you think they learned from it and improved their procedures?

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by JSB

"Jesus Cookies" on EBay for $199.95, "Guaranteed to Save Your Soul!"?

That made me laugh out loud!!!

[Erin Pavlina]

Robbins and staff never really knew what kind of agony I was in. I asked the staff where the nurses were and they pointed in a vague direction, but we never found the nurses. So we kept walking back to the ballroom thinking they might be inside but they weren't. No one knew where they were. We left, thinking we'd hit a hospital and treat the burns as they were 3rd degree burns and oozing everywhere. I had to walk barefoot through a car-oil soaked garage to get to our car. It was truly awful.

[JSB]

Sounds horrible! I hope they have smartened up since then.

Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina

Robbins and staff never really knew what kind of agony I was in. I asked the staff where the nurses were and they pointed in a vague direction, but we never found the nurses. So we kept walking back to the ballroom thinking they might be inside but they weren't. No one knew where they were. We left, thinking we'd hit a hospital and treat the burns as they were 3rd degree burns and oozing everywhere. I had to walk barefoot through a car-oil soaked garage to get to our car. It was truly awful.

[Harmonium]

so he killed 3 people? holy crap... I wonder if he considers this his loa creation, as he says "it's always working no matter what"

[desertrat]

In agreeing with Erin lets not kill him , and he did make some bad dicisions. He could of let the people that wanted to help , help and not let them die. He is in the Yavapie co. court rite now on trial for man sloter . If the law dont deal with this karma should . desert rat

[Margarita888]

Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina

Robbins and staff never really knew what kind of agony I was in. I asked the staff where the nurses were and they pointed in a vague direction, but we never found the nurses. So we kept walking back to the ballroom thinking they might be inside but they weren't. No one knew where they were. We left, thinking we'd hit a hospital and treat the burns as they were 3rd degree burns and oozing everywhere. I had to walk barefoot through a car-oil soaked garage to get to our car. It was truly awful.

Oh dear. Sounds awful. I'm cringing just thinking about how much pain you could've been in. I've been looking into one of his live events but am always wondering about the fire walking and if anybody has ever gotten burned by it.

[Cado]

I'm sorry, just have to say this thread title makes me laugh every time it comes back up.

[Erin Pavlina]

Margarita, soooo many people didn't get burned. I do think it's safe. I would just make sure you know where the medical personnel are. It was a great seminar and a great experience overall. I learned stuff I still put into practice today.

[ChannelingMyself]

Margarita,

Here is an interesting read about firewalking, enjoy.

FireWalking

[cacheborn]

Anyone has a link where there is a summary of what happened?

[desertrat]

Originally Posted by cacheborn

Anyone has a link where there is a summary of what happened?

If you mean with James Ray Defense rests in James Arthur Ray's sweat lodge trial | azfamily.com Phoenix KSAZ Search Results - FOX 10 News - myFOX Phoenix - myfoxphoenix.com As the story was told on t.v. at the time of the sweat lodge people were sick, a nurse of e.m.t. wanted to help , but James Ray would not let them help and they died. desert rat

[cacheborn]

Thanks for the links, desertrat.

[desertrat]

This was a big news story for all the Phoenix area t.v. people . All of them should have a lot of info on J Ray . I only posted 2 . In an interview some time after the sweat lodge incident James Ray when asked why dident you let some one help the people that were in truble , he said " they were haveing out of body events " . When I heard this I thought if that were me I would want to wake and tell the story . desert rat

[desertrat]

James Ray was just found guilty of neglent homiside by a jurry . Here are some links .Self-help author found guilty in Arizona sweat lodge case James Arthur Ray convicted of negligent homicide | azfamily.com Phoenix desert rat

[James Fletcher]

Before I became aware of this incident, I purchased his book Harmonic Wealth. I didn't like his style of "telling it like it is" (stating his opinion as universal fact).

He definitely has a very visible chip on his shoulder. Sweat lodge or no sweat lodge, I wouldn't recommend his advice to anyone.

[KyaSul]

Surely if he was a manifestor, such a positive thinker, such an event would not have occurred? Makes you question this self-help stuff, doesn't it?

[TheOrange]

What happened to James Ray was like crashing a train into a brick wall at 100mph..

YouTube - ‪Spectacular 100mph Train Crash Test‬‏

While I think that what James Ray did was negligent, I wouldn't say he is a bad guy.. I think he is a good person.. he just made a huge mistake, didn't check where he was going.. and then it was too late to hit the breaks..

[TheOrange]

Originally Posted by KyaSul

Surely if he was a manifestor, such a positive thinker, such an event would not have occurred? Makes you question this self-help stuff, doesn't it?

He believed that if he could push them past death then they would become reborn once they would return back to life.. that's intention manifestation taken to the extreme. One can see how this belief has led to the events that have happened..

[JSB]

Originally Posted by KyaSul

Surely if he was a manifestor, such a positive thinker, such an event would not have occurred? Makes you question this self-help stuff, doesn't it?

He may have been a great manifestor, but he was also arrogant and presumptuous. His reckless behavior caused this tragedy.

[ButterflyWoman]

Originally Posted by KyaSul

Surely if he was a manifestor, such a positive thinker, such an event would not have occurred?

You seem to assume that only the thoughts we're aware of, the surface thoughts, matter. It's my experience that the deep, underlying beliefs (the ones we may not even be consciously aware of at all) are what really shapes our reality. The surface thoughts may or may not have an effect, depending on what the underlying beliefs are.

It seems to me that, based on this model of "your beliefs/thoughts create your reality", James Ray had some pretty negative opinions of himself, and that's what ended up manifesting for him. He could say "I am a great teacher" all day, but if, under it all, he really believed that he was, say, a fraud, or untrustworthy, or that he deserved to be punished for something (like taking money from people, just as a possible example), well, that's what happened.

Note that I have no idea what beliefs he REALLY held of himself and his work. I'm just guessing, based on my understanding of human nature and the results he got. But by the model of a reflective reality which is directly filtered through your own beliefs, he was certainly holding negative beliefs about himself and about his work.

[Bliss Sage]

Originally Posted by JSB

He may have been a great manifestor, but he was also arrogant and presumptuous.

...but not anymore.

[JSB]

Originally Posted by Bliss Sage

...but not anymore.

Maybe, in the long run, this will be a valuable lesson for him.

[Fendaril]

Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina

I think he made some bad decisions that were really bad judgment. I hope you are not seriously suggesting we kill someone for any reason.

His viewpoints are still very sound, but he made a huge mistake in their implementation. And he'll pay for that mistake.

kill him on the astral plane.

[Bliss Sage]

IMO, you people who are saying "kill him" on any plane have profoundly demented mentalities and it's equally disturbing to read such hate-filled attitudes like that on a website like this.

Anyone who watches the video of the jury's decision can see the man is not and never will be the same again. For crap's sake, he already did die. Now let him be reborn without the curse of your hatred.