Afterlife Question

[Revpress69]

I have read that all the pain you have caused people in this life will be felt by you in the afterlife.........what if you ask for forgiveness in this life to the people that you have hurt. If those people have past on, or if you have forgotten names, or maybe you cannot locate for whatever reason, if you ask for forgiveness, will you still have to face your "moral crimes" in the afterlife? I have SO many question for this topic, I wonder if this is the correct subject heading to be writing this, thanks for any and all help.....

[MiBeloved]

To some extent the afterlife is an inversion of this life, in the sense that many things which operate here operate in a similar way there.

So I commit a crime here against my neighbour by stealing his TV, and then while I was leaving his residence, he showed up and confronted me. I panicked and shot him to death.

Later I was arrested and taken to court. When confronted while being questioned in court, I explained that I had sincerely asked the deceased person for forgiveness and I had a priest assist me in atoning for what I did. Thus, I said that I should be released and should suffer no further for the crime.

So what do you think the judge will do?

In other words, when a crime is committed, it is foolish to think that only the victim is offended. The laws of nature might be offended as well, just as the state is offended when one commits a crime and the state might successfully prosecute a law-breaker, even if the victim refuses to press charges.

Even if a person in the afterlife forgives you, the matter might not end there and other reactions might pursue you from the supernatural level.

Getting forgiveness does not deal with my criminal or offensive tendency. After being forgiven I may continue a violence.

What about a willingness to take a just penalty?

Am I willing to do that and also willing to ask forgiveness?

[Luciddd]

Originally Posted by MiBeloved

To some extent the afterlife is an inversion of this life, in the sense that many things which operate here operate in a similar way there.

So I commit a crime here against my neighbour by stealing his TV, and then while I was leaving his residence, he showed up and confronted me. I panicked and shot him to death.

Later I was arrested and taken to court. When confronted while being questioned in court, I explained that I had sincerely asked the deceased person for forgiveness and I had a priest assist me in atoning for what I did. Thus, I said that I should be released and should suffer no further for the crime.

So what do you think the judge will do?

In other words, when a crime is committed, it is foolish to think that only the victim is offended. The laws of nature might be offended as well, just as the state is offended when one commits a crime and the state might successfully prosecute a law-breaker, even if the victim refuses to press charges.

Even if a person in the afterlife forgives you, the matter might not end there and other reactions might pursue you from the supernatural level.

Getting forgiveness does not deal with my criminal or offensive tendency. After being forgiven I may continue a violence.

What about a willingness to take a just penalty?

Am I willing to do that and also willing to ask forgiveness?

Lol I think you are taking things to the extreme, you cant compare killing someone with the average man issues that may carry karma like breaking the heart of your girlfriend etc.

I think is a matter of neutralizing forces a negative force must be neutralized with a positive force equal or geater. Also I dont think you face a literal judge there simply cosmic laws pays you back.

We all carry karma from our past lifes, what if a Karma from a past life dictates you must be poor for your entire life to atine for an action? I think it would be unfair to be condemned to poorness all your life because of a past deed, what would be the reason to live then? Anything you do to get out of the situation will fail anyway. Thats why in my opinion you can neutralize past Karma with equally good actions, words and thoughts.

[MiBeloved]

I wasn't making the comparison but making a point to show that an easy way out may not work in some cases.

As for your idea about there not being a literal judge, what is the evidence? Have you gone to the astral world and found it free of personal accountability and only having non-personal balancing of forces.

I have done much astral travel and have not found it to be like that. If you have the experience to back your beliefs, than that is alright,

I have seen both heavenly, earthly and hellish dimensions in the astral world supervised by persons and by forces but I have not seen any evidence of their being forces alone.

See my book Meditation Pictorial where I described some of this. The URL is below my signature below.

[Revpress69]

Thanks for the replies. My question was more about making mistakes and atoning for them in this life. IT IS NOT ABOUT TRYING TO GET AWAY WITH ANYTHING!!!!

It is my intent to live everyday to the fullest and help as many people as possible (animals too!!), but I have made mistakes in the past and I would like to make up for them as much as I can on earth while I am here.....I never killed anyone or even attacked anyone physically.

I came from a severely abusive home and was taught that I was to be a punching bag for the rest of my very dysfunctional family.....I then went through my 20's getting even with the world for what was done to me at home.

I AM NOT BLAMING MY UPBRINGING FOR THE MISTAKES I MADE, although on some level I know that what you have been taught and how you have been treated growing up have a lot to do with your actions later in life.

I believe that I am a good person now, I am in a good relationship, I have wonderful friends, and live a basically peaceful life........I just want to say I'm sorry and make amends to the people that I hurt along the way to realizing that I was a person worthy of love.

[MiBeloved]

You won't able to meet everyone you feel you offended but you can in the future be fair to nearly everyone you meet. Just do your best. That is the main thing.

And be patient with yourself so that if you do not live up to the new standard you are requiring of yourself, you can give yourself room to improve over time and you can couch yourself and accept counsel from others about how to make more rapid advancement in your new quest.

[Luciddd]

Originally Posted by MiBeloved

I wasn't making the comparison but making a point to show that an easy way out may not work in some cases.

As for your idea about there not being a literal judge, what is the evidence? Have you gone to the astral world and found it free of personal accountability and only having non-personal balancing of forces.

I have done much astral travel and have not found it to be like that. If you have the experience to back your beliefs, than that is alright,

I have seen both heavenly, earthly and hellish dimensions in the astral world supervised by persons and by forces but I have not seen any evidence of their being forces alone.

See my book Meditation Pictorial where I described some of this. The URL is below my signature below.

Astral worlds arent the high end realms. Who is going to judge who would have so authority?

Remember astral words are much defined by your mind and perceptions so if you believe you are going to face a literal judge you will.

Of course there are beigns that oversee some worlds because said beigns have advanced enough spiritual progress or simply they suit that place but I greatly doubt you will encounter a beign who will say "GUILTY! NOW TO HELL!" you will be send there according to your karma and of course you can expect there to be guards or forces that are personal preventing you from escaping until the proper time and things. As I have said who could have such an authority to judge you? I think maybe you refered by a literal judge means someone who say you what you did wrong, show you and give you insight in your mistakes so you know what you did wrong, but more than a judge I would say an observer or a guide who after lecturing you only limits herself/himself to allow the cosmc karma law to do its job and send you where you have to be.


We have many worlds :

1) Physical Word

2) Astral World which is divided in many sections

- Hell words
- Intermediary words
- Heavenly words and no, God "place" isnt estabished in the heavenly worlds but he can does appear there

As far as I know the level of existence in these planes vary, hellish world beigns are usually set on hells and are powerless, fallen angels are also there. In intermedary words as far as I know basically beigns have power over the astral cosmos they can materialize anything they wish to enjoy and travel at any speed. Then there is the heavenly world which I dont know much about but basically from what I know beigns there can be endowed with great responsability like oversee a place, guide beigns and may even have their power extended not only to the astral cosmos but the physical one.

3) Causal Word

The world of pure thought, basically from what I know (through reading) here beigns are made of pure thoughts, they are practically karmaless and can do anything with just a thought, from what I have read the lifestyle here is equal for everyone. They see everything as a thought and for them the physical universe, the astral cosmos and even heavenly beigns and gods are seen as just thoughts. Beigns here are way evolved and can even create universes. God's "place" isnt even here.

4) There is no name to here. Call it what you want, above of omnipresence, godhead, God's place, etc:

From what I know here resides the union with God. I cant offer an explanation for the state of existence here the only things I have found out is that they are permanently with God and realize oneness with God. As for the state of existence nothing I can say, only that supposedly is full of bliss and trascend anything and from what I have investigated apparently beigns here simultaneously live the lives of everyone in all the omniverse.

I dont know if you have shared similarities with the description above, I have had experiences my most intense one is written here:

What was that? lightspeed travel, cosmic size

Why? Because I was totally awake, done after a bliss state and above all I can certify that was no product of my mind but 100% real as I was no dreaming or in any state that my mind could trick me. But if I were to say you I knew where I was I would be a liar could have been any realm.

[MiBeloved]

Lucidd,

One thing is that an astral being may not have to evolve first to be someone superior. There are supernatural being who are superior just because they are, not because they evolved.

Consider that you are going to an uninhabited planet, what will you find there? You might find some gold nuggets and then find much dust.

But the nuggets are a higher quality of metal just like that without any reason.

In existence certain realities happen to be superior just because they were always existentially like that and some have attained superiority through progression. Don't get stuck with the idea that every elevated being or every divine being has to go through a learning process or a purification process as we do.

[Luciddd]

Originally Posted by MiBeloved

Lucidd,

One thing is that an astral being may not have to evolve first to be someone superior. There are supernatural being who are superior just because they are, not because they evolved.

Consider that you are going to an uninhabited planet, what will you find there? You might find some gold nuggets and then find much dust.

But the nuggets are a higher quality of metal just like that without any reason.

In existence certain realities happen to be superior just because they were always existentially like that and some have attained superiority through progression. Don't get stuck with the idea that every elevated being or every divine being has to go through a learning process or a purification process as we do.

The highest goal as you know is to merge with the absolute, aka God. I dont doubt there are certain deities that are born just that way but how can they reach the highest goal if they cant evolve?

Humans as you know have the potential to reach the ultimate reality

Are the beigns that are higher and always are at that level just because they are stuck there because they effectively dont progress? Is that the "advantadge" beign that go through proggresion have? I hope you can answer me those questions.

Or what you mean is that they are superior from that point? For example a divinity in the heavenly astral beign can evolve to higher realities but they dont have to go through physical as we do?

If so then where is justice? I mean we have to go from the physical to reach the higher states while other beigns dont only because thats it? I suppose beign "proggressive type" has to give us some advantadge that beigns that start as lesser deities or something like that dont have. Prehaps starting from so low give us certain speed at higher realms since we have learned how to evolve from the lowest state.

While I think what you say of divine beigns at astral beign never going below that state I dont think there are permanent beigns at causal.

[MiBeloved]

Keep us posted on your experiences, especially on evidences from the astral and causal planes which support your conclusions.

Keep in touch.

That was a great post.

[Luciddd]

Originally Posted by MiBeloved

Keep us posted on your experiences, especially on evidences from the astral and causal planes which support your conclusions.

Keep in touch.

That was a great post.

Lol but you didnt answered anything I asked. I have had experiences but they had been so alien, so abnormal (in the good sense) and completely our of my normal experiences and lasted so little that no view can be get from them.

When you say some divine beigns didnt get there by evolving, how then will they reach the final goal of merger with God or oneness with God? When you say they didnt evolve you mean they start directly from that point without passing from the previous one but can evolve further or they are stuck there permanently?

What balance is there for evolutional beigns like us? Having super beigns that start as deities in astral heavens and never knew like us this plane isnt it a bit unfair? What advantadge then an evolutional beign have that they dont? I want to know your view in all these.

Agree, disagree?

[MiBeloved]

Luciddd wrote


I have had experiences but they had been so alien, so abnormal (in the good sense) and completely our of my normal experiences and lasted so little that no view can be get from them.

==============

MiBeloved’s Reply:


Clarity comes if one continues to have the experiences. Things clear up and also one develops psychic and spiritual perception. But you have to be persistent at this and make it your number one priority or at least one of your important interests.
Presently medical science explains that initially we did not see clearly through the eyes we had as babies, but after a little time, the infant’s eyes come into focus naturally with or without 20/20 vision. A similar thing might happen if you persist with these experiences, where overtime you develop supernatural perception and can distinguish one subtle object from another clearly.


Luciddd wrote



When you say some divine beings didnt get there by evolving, how then will they reach the final goal of merger with God or oneness with God?

===============

MiBeloved’s Reply:



What I am suggesting if that these divine beings never did evolve and never need to evolve but are perfect as is from the get-go. Thus for them there is no objective as for us. I did not answer this initially because you already have some preconceived ideas about existence and reality and I did not feel comfortable running against your views.


Luciddd wrote


When you say they didnt evolve you mean they start directly from that point without passing from the previous one but can evolve further or they are stuck there permanently?

============

MiBeloved’s Reply:



For these divine beings there is no evolution in the way that we have to endure for becoming upgraded. Just as there is impure gold ore and sometimes by accident a man finds a piece of gold that is 100% pure, so there are beings that do not require evolutionary upliftment.
They are not stuck because their level of existence is the absolute spiritual plane where everything is perfect and complete.


From India we have benefited from the concept of avatara which really means one who descends from a divine world into this human situation of the material world and the lower astral regions. These beings come down into a low plane of existence.


But then we also must give credence to people like Charles Darwin who brought to our attention that some beings are moving upwards in the mundane evolutionary cycle. So some beings are moving up and some are coming down and it seems to us that the human species is a sort of meeting point between those who are going up and those who are coming down.


While the evolutionary beings have to strive for something better, the divine beings who come to the human world only need to repossess their divine status when they are done with humal incarnations. They do not to strive for divine status. That is what I mean.


Luciddd wrote


What balance is there for evolutional beings like us?

===============

MiBeloved’s Reply:



Your use of the word balance in this case is not clear to me. Please rephrase the question.



Luciddd wrote


Having super beings that start as deities in astral heavens and never knew like us this plane isn’t it a bit unfair?

===============

MiBeloved’s Reply:



It is certain unfair if it was done by creative design of a god-being. Anyone wo would have designed such a scheme would obviously be a very mad deity.


However the various levels of existence and the various divine or mundane natures of various beings come about causelessly. They just existed like that without any deliberate planning on the part of anyone. There is no one to blame for that.



Luciddd wrote



What advantage then an evolutional being have that they dont?

=================

MiBeloved’s Reply:



An evolutionary being has no advantage over a divine being. Actually the evolutionary being is limited and disadvantaged.

[Luciddd]

Originally Posted by MiBeloved

Clarity comes if one continues to have the experiences. Things clear up and also one develops psychic and spiritual perception. But you have to be persistent at this and make it your number one priority or at least one of your important interests.
Presently medical science explains that initially we did not see clearly through the eyes we had as babies, but after a little time, the infant’s eyes come into focus naturally with or without 20/20 vision. A similar thing might happen if you persist with these experiences, where overtime you develop supernatural perception and can distinguish one subtle object from another clearly.

They are hard to get though....... I really curse my decision of deciding to abandon the state of infinite bliss which led me through an eye and was leading me into another realm. "Anyway I just have to return to this state when I want" yeah right back then it saw so easy but I havent managed to repeat my ultimate experience.

Originally Posted by MiBeloved

What I am suggesting if that these divine beings never did evolve and never need to evolve but are perfect as is from the get-go. Thus for them there is no objective as for us.

Originally Posted by MiBeloved

I did not answer this initially because you already have some preconceived ideas about existence and reality and I did not feel comfortable running against your views.

How does a man evolve then? Certaintly not beign a closed minded I have never been so and neither indended so.

Oh, so the you are refering to the HIIIIIIIIIGH end beigns that are already one with God right? If so I agree naturally there had to be an aspect of God which remained in the infinite state because then it would be impossible to other beigns to return to the origin. If so I agree then, I thought you were refering to lesser divinities like the gods (note non capital g) in the astral heavens and such.

Originally Posted by MiBeloved

For these divine beings there is no evolution in the way that we have to endure for becoming upgraded. Just as there is impure gold ore and sometimes by accident a man finds a piece of gold that is 100% pure, so there are beings that do not require evolutionary upliftment.
They are not stuck because their level of existence is the absolute spiritual plane where everything is perfect and complete.

Yeah I thought you were refering to divine beigns that have a certain degree of divinity but arent one with God yet like some lesser gods that can be found in astral heaven. I suppose you could also find completely divine beigns in astral heavens, in autobiography of a Yogi Sri Yukteswar describe that absolutely divine beigns (one with GOD) usually descend to the astral heavens to help other dudes out there, if some of these beigns are evolved beigns, why not naturally always divine beigns?. As I said I thought you were refering to lesser divinities usually found in astral heavens as such as far as I know still need to progress to merge with the Absolute.

Originally Posted by MiBeloved

From India we have benefited from the concept of avatara which really means one who descends from a divine world into this human situation of the material world and the lower astral regions. These beings come down into a low plane of existence.

As far as I knew Avatars usually were humans who attained the merger with God and returned from the Godhead to earth, like Babaji for example. But I guess it is also possible for always have been One with God beigns to come here.

Originally Posted by MiBeloved

But then we also must give credence to people like Charles Darwin who brought to our attention that some beings are moving upwards in the mundane evolutionary cycle. So some beings are moving up and some are coming down and it seems to us that the human species is a sort of meeting point between those who are going up and those who are coming down.

Thats a way to see it althought charles never came to my mind here. If you have been in the higher planes I guess you have noticed evolution does occur and can go from the lowest to the highest level but I think it was a bit closed minded in my part to assume just evolution is taken in count.

Originally Posted by MiBeloved

While the evolutionary beings have to strive for something better, the divine beings who come to the human world only need to repossess their divine status when they are done with humal incarnations. They do not to strive for divine status. That is what I mean.

Yes, I guess it is necessary an aspect of God to remain in the highest achievement forever, otherwise it would be impossible to show the way to lesser beigns like us.

Originally Posted by MiBeloved

It is certain unfair if it was done by creative design of a god-being. Anyone wo would have designed such a scheme would obviously be a very mad deity.
However the various levels of existence and the various divine or mundane natures of various beings come about causelessly. They just existed like that without any deliberate planning on the part of anyone. There is no one to blame for that.

Well I guess it was necessary to have aspects that wer always fully God in order to show lesser beigns the way. As I said I thought you were refering to lesser heavenly astral deities instead of beigns that are fully one with the Absolute.

Originally Posted by MiBeloved

An evolutionary being has no advantage over a divine being. Actually the evolutionary being is limited and disadvantaged.

Yes, I suppose we should instead be grateful that we are able to reach such station ourselves by evolution, we could have had bad luck and be trapped in a closed system instead.

The only thing I am more or less against your view is about the literal judge thing, in my view it would be more as a guide who simply shows you your mistakes and then tells you the consequences and simply hands you to the karmic law to do its job. I really cant imagine a bearded dude seated in a throne shouting "GUILTY NOW GO TO HELL!" for sure I may see lesser divinities doing so specially if they have some ego left but I cant see One with God beigns doing so.

[MiBeloved]

They are hard to get though....... I really curse my decision of deciding to abandon the state of infinite bliss which led me through an eye and was leading me into another realm. "Anyway I just have to return to this state when I want" yeah right back then it saw so easy but I havent managed to repeat my ultimate experience.


Some babies are born blind and some are far-sighted etc.

---------------------
As far as I knew Avatars usually were humans who attained the merger with God and returned from the Godhead to earth, like Babaji for example. But I guess it is also possible for always have been One with God beigns to come here.
--------------------


Avatara is a sanskrit word which means one who is on a high plane of existence and who descends to do divine work. The other meaning which youmentioned is a secondary meaning. So that too is the meaning of the word but I am using the meaning of one who descendes to a lower plane to elevate evolutionary beings who are coming up from a lower plane of existence.

----------------------
Yes, I suppose we should instead be grateful that we are able to reach such station ourselves by evolution, we could have had bad luck and be trapped in a closed system instead.


Actually mundane evolution is a closed system except for the aid we get from avatars and their assistants. This is a maze from which it is very difficult to escape.


------------------------------------------



The only thing I am more or less against your view is about the literal judge thing, in my view it would be more as a guide who simply shows you your mistakes and then tells you the consequences and simply hands you to the karmic law to do its job. I really cant imagine a bearded dude seated in a throne shouting "GUILTY NOW GO TO HELL!" for sure I may see lesser divinities doing so specially if they have some ego left but I cant see One with God beigns doing so.

Disagreement here is understandable and why should you go for an idea that is against your basic principles. However there are malicious and criminal elements in the lower astral planes, just as they are in the physical world which we live in. And so in the astral world there is a bit of enforcement of order when malicious beings assault others who are not offenders.

[Luciddd]

Originally Posted by MiBeloved

Actually mundane evolution is a closed system except for the aid we get from avatars and their assistants. This is a maze from which it is very difficult to escape.

I dont get your answer could you explain. If avatars come here and show us the way to evolve to their station and become One with God then it isnt a closed systen anymore.

If you meant that without their knowledge such a feat should in theory be impossible then I agree, but well they have come and shown us the way so I dont see why it is closed. It is difficult to let go all material desires and become fully purificated, yes but it isnt impossible some people have done it like Babaji, Buddha (I dont remember his name), Swami Ramalinga, Yogananda and Sri Yukteswar among others.

I dont get what do you mean by mundame evolution? Do you mean evolution in this world like in the physicla plane? Do you think we will never cease to reincarnate in this shithole and eventually move permanently to the astral then causal and finally attain the goal?

[MiBeloved]

Mundane evolution means that a limited spirit is moving through various species of life and then eventually moves into the human species. Let us say for instance a worm, there is a spirit using that body .When do you think that spirit will move into using the highly sophisticated human body, which on this planet is nature’s highest achievement.

As you said Gautama Buddhi, Babaji and others were here and they keep coming but all the same still most of us are unable to absorb their influence when they are here and so we remain locked down in the maze and keep having to take these physical births in either a human body, an animal body or less.

[Luciddd]

Originally Posted by MiBeloved

Mundane evolution means that a limited spirit is moving through various species of life and then eventually moves into the human species. Let us say for instance a worm, there is a spirit using that body .When do you think that spirit will move into using the highly sophisticated human body, which on this planet is nature’s highest achievement.

As you said Gautama Buddhi, Babaji and others were here and they keep coming but all the same still most of us are unable to absorb their influence when they are here and so we remain locked down in the maze and keep having to take these physical births in either a human body, an animal body or less.

Yes it is indeed hard to trascend our limited nature and evolve to an unlimited one. But well at least we are given the chance, is better than no chance at all.

[Revpress69]

I think my original thread was hi-jacked