I am naturally skeptical of Erin's claims

[James81]

Originally Posted by RomanHD

Although I am not the OP, let me reply to this. Steve, I did. I went to the book store. I searched the Internet. I tried the stuff. I believed it. And guess what, nothing happened. THEN I became a sceptic, not the other way around.

Ok, then the question is...why would you continue to demand proof if nothing happened for you?

What other people do with their money is their own choice, no? So, what is it (and I'm speaking more to the OP than to you here) about other people spending their money on something you view as useless that bugs you so?

There are many different perspectives through which people cope with life. If people spend their money and get a reading and that reading serves that person to create breakthroughs, then who are you to judge the authenticity of that?

[JoePike]

Syndicate - regarding your original thread starting post - the James Randi challenge has been discussed ad nauseum in these forums...feel free to search for the threads and read away if you want.

Erin has said she has helped the police a little in the past, but she can't ever talk about it because of privacy issues and because the authorities generally don't want anyone to know they are turning to psychics for help. There would be too much internal, political, and religious backlash for that to become main stream...but how do we know that's not happening a lot behind closed doors? A legit psychic who truly wanted to help solve these mysteries wouldn't be seeking public acclaim anyway.

I second the other posters who have said the burden of proof for Erin's abilities rests soley on you, not on Erin. She has nothing to prove to you, and will sleep fine tonight whether you believe in her abilities or not. You really should spend more time educating yourself on the subject with an open mind.

Why don't you get a psychic reading yourself? Not from some cheesy 800 number psychic line, but from someone endorsed by people who read Steve and Erin's blogs. If Erin is a bit too pricey for you, then check out Anna Conlan or Andrea Hess. They've had great testimonials from people in this forum. Also check out Chris Landry and Alex Wu. Both are just starting out and have even lower pricing for what their abilities are (my own reading with Chris was awesome). Google these 4 and check out their pricing. Then take some action and get a reading yourself from whomever resonates with you the most.

They all have great blogs too - you should take some time to read their articles in addition to Erin's. Ironically...they are all very complimentary of each other content wise. This has helped me a lot with my own spiritual development. These intelligent, funny, normal, giving people are trying to use their abilities to make the world a better place.

But they also need to make a living. They offer a service that deserves compensation just like any other business. The longer they offer their services, the more experienced they get, the more clients (and repeat clients) they attract...the higher they will need to charge. Erin's prices are totally in tune with the demand for her service - otherwise she couldn't charge what she does. That speaks volumes to me.

The first time I came across Erin's web site (after loving Steve's articles like you) my reaction was... "Wait- what? Are you kidding me?" The difference is I approached it all with an open mind. The more I read the more it resonated with me. You need to research, explore, experience, and find the truth for yourself. No one can do that for you.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by RomanHD

Maybe you can point me and others to some books/web sites which you can actually make work in a 30 day trial?

I've noticed Steve and Erin pointing people who are genuinely open and interested, and who trust themselves (as opposed to people who are caught in a Chinese finger trap of resistance, struggling against themselves), towards resources and materials for developing intuitive abilities, etc.

But I haven't noticed them doing so for people whom it's clear even to a non-psychic that they're resisting mightily (for instance, people who declare what they're interested in to be "total BS" or who come at them demanding "proof," etc.) -- that is, people who don't see trustworthiness in the mirror.

One may feel one is owed the same kind of consideration, regardless of whether or not one is in rapport with the person of whom you're asking consideration, but feeling owed and $4.25 will get you a grande latte.

[Ecce Homo]

Originally Posted by Syndicate

In my opinion, the burden of proof is put on the person who claims to have supernatural abilities...

Just as an aside Syndicate, I suddenly find the phrase “burden of proof” odd yet revealing. It’s like, outside of a courtroom or perhaps a scientific discipline, why would anyone want to burden themselves with proving something to someone else? I have had experiences that could be considered psychic and it would certainly feel burdensome (hard, arduous, heavy feeling) to then have to prove to someone else that I saw/felt/heard what I saw/felt/heard. That’s probably why I don’t bother with taking that kind of a burden on my shoulders. I’m too lazy and life’s too short!

[James81]

Originally Posted by Angela

but feeling owed and $4.25 will get you a grande latte.

That's highway robbery. It's milk and coffee beans and foam. Come on! $4.25???? Really? Really?

Prove to me that that latte is worth $4.25! Why should I drink a latte that costs $4.25?

Ok...you gotta admit...a tall, vanilla latte is better than sex. So, I guess I'm not paying for the actual ingredients and labor involved as I am paying for the experience and how that experience nourishes me and makes me feel. In that case, $4.25 is an absolute steal!

[Angela]

Originally Posted by James81

Prove to me that that latte is worth $4.25! Why should I drink a latte that costs $4.25?

"Security!"

[JSB]

RE: Burden of proof


How To Handle Public Criticism

Excerpt:

"I’ve learned that other people’s opinions of me are based on expectations and assumptions that may not be accurate, and that they must do their own research to arrive at the truth. I’m not required to do that research for them."

[RomanHD]

Originally Posted by James81

Ok, then the question is...why would you continue to demand proof if nothing happened for you?

What other people do with their money is their own choice, no? So, what is it (and I'm speaking more to the OP than to you here) about other people spending their money on something you view as useless that bugs you so?

I'm not demanding proof. I'm simply asking for a direction because I think these things might have a potential, but I have yet to tap into it.

I don't have problems with Erin's services or the people who spend their money on it. Never said I did.

Originally Posted by Angela

I've noticed Steve and Erin pointing people who are genuinely open and interested, and who trust themselves (as opposed to people who are caught in a Chinese finger trap of resistance, struggling against themselves), towards resources and materials for developing intuitive abilities, etc.

But I haven't noticed them doing so for people whom it's clear even to a non-psychic that they're resisting mightily (for instance, people who declare what they're interested in to be "total BS" or who come at them demanding "proof," etc.) -- that is, people who don't see trustworthiness in the mirror.

I'm genuinely open and interested. I don't however trust myself all that much when it comes to these things. How can I trust my ability to obtain a genuine psychic experience when I've tried many times and nothing happened? As Steve said in one of his recent articles:

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

In order to make accurate predictions of where you’re headed, you must look to your past and only your past.

Looking into my past, I see failure to get anything remotely psychic to work. On what grounds should I trust myself then?

[Angela]

Originally Posted by RomanHD

I'm genuinely open and interested. I don't however trust myself all that much when it comes to these things.

Your belief about yourself, that you're genuinely open and interested, isn't congruent, in my opinion, with what you've said here in the forums -- like, that SR is total BS; "us lazy bastards who don't want to watch the video but still want to debate the validity of the points;" "this pretty much owned half the intuition people around here. Thumbs up," and very pertinently, your remark to ALG, who was explaining the same sentiment that Steve expressed here that "It then should come as no surprise to these people that almost no one will take them seriously."

You don't come across as genuinely open to and interested in these topics, which are interrelated -- the things you say have you occurring like you're looking interested in proving them wrong.

Looking into my past, I see failure to get anything remotely psychic to work. On what grounds should I trust myself then?

You could trust yourself to fail to get anything remotely psychic to work -- unless, perhaps, you genuinely open yourself up to the possibility that it could work.

[James81]

Originally Posted by RomanHD

I don't have problems with Erin's services or the people who spend their money on it. Never said I did.

Wanna know how I know you're coming from a frame of defensiveness of your own point of view and not genuinely interested in gaining more knowledge?

You defending yourself about the money part when I very clearly said that I was speaking to the OP (original poster) and not to you.

Now, either you didn't see that part (i.e. weren't listening) or you chose to make that statement about you (i.e. defensive). Neither point of view--not listening and/or being defensive--even hints at someone who is open to another viewpoint.

[RomanHD]

Originally Posted by Angela

Your belief about yourself, that you're genuinely open and interested, isn't congruent, in my opinion, with what you've said here in the forums -- like, 1. that SR is total BS; "2. us lazy bastards who don't want to watch the video but still want to debate the validity of the points?;" "3. this pretty much owned half the intuition people around here. Thumbs up," and very pertinently, 4. your remark to ALG, who was explaining the same sentiment that Steve expressed here that "It then should come as no surprise to these people that almost no one will take them seriously."

1. I honestly believe that SR is total BS. That doesn't mean that some aspects of psi, LoA, psychic skills or occultism can't be real.

2. I really wasn't interested in watching a 45 minute video, but I really wanted to debate it. If you look further into that thread, you will see that I in fact agreed with most of the points, or didn't have anything to say. No "debunking" there.

3. I deliberately wrote that statement in a way that wouldn't make it obvious who I think got "owned". So no one should really feel hurt.

4. I stand by that point. I can say I have gnomes in my house, but if I am not interested in making my case, then I should not expect many people to believe me.

Also, it's very polite to search my previous posts to see if you can find anything against me.

[RomanHD]

Originally Posted by James81

Wanna know how I know you're coming from a frame of defensiveness of your own point of view and not genuinely interested in gaining more knowledge?

You defending yourself about the money part when I very clearly said that I was speaking to the OP (original poster) and not to you.

Now, either you didn't see that part (i.e. weren't listening) or you chose to make that statement about you (i.e. defensive). Neither point of view--not listening and/or being defensive--even hints at someone who is open to another viewpoint.

You said:

Originally Posted by James81

What other people do with their money is their own choice, no? So, what is it (and I'm speaking more to the OP than to you here) about other people spending their money on something you view as useless that bugs you so?

You said you were speaking more to the OP than me, not exclusively to him. I did notice that part, and chose to reply anyway, because I felt I had something to say.

--

Why do you guys have to attack my openness to foreign ideas is beyond me. In my short stay on this forum, in just a few days, I actually changed some of my opinions about nutrition and weight loss in quite a drastic way. Here, this post:

Originally Posted by RomanHD

Dude, just when I thought I understood this entire weight loss and nutrition science, you come up and shake my entire world-view. I guess I'll have to check that book out

Does that not even hint at someone who is open to another viewpoint?

[James81]

Originally Posted by RomanHD

You said:



You said you were speaking more to the OP than me, not exclusively to him. I did notice that part, and chose to reply anyway, because I felt I had something to say.

--

Why do you guys have to attack my openness to foreign ideas is beyond me. In my short stay on this forum, in just a few days, I actually changed some of my opinions about nutrition and weight loss in quite a drastic way. Here, this post:



Does that not even hint at someone who is open to another viewpoint?

You're still defending yourself. LOL

How about a knock knock joke?

Knock Knock
Who's there?
Lettuce
Lettuce who?
Lettuce in, we're freezing!

Nyuk nyuk nyuk.

Ok, do you still feel defensive? Be honest, now.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by RomanHD

Also, it's very polite to search my previous posts to see if you can find anything against me.

There's that defensiveness that James mentioned, again. I wasn't saying that you intended to convey a lack of openness, or that it would be wrong of you to be not-open. It's nothing "against" you, my telling you how you come across to me; it's just feedback, in the context of what I was saying before -- that if you're asking something from someone, but you're coming across as being resistant to what they choose to offer, then they're not likely to be very motivated to comply with your request.

"I can say I have gnomes in my house, but if I am not interested in making my case, then I should not expect many people to believe me." -- That's just the thing -- you seem to think that the Pavlinas should be interested in "making their case," but that very expectation is what might have them uninterested in helping you with what you requested.

See what I mean?

[RomanHD]

Originally Posted by James81

You're still defending yourself. LOL

How about a knock knock joke?

Knock Knock
Who's there?
Lettuce
Lettuce who?
Lettuce in, we're freezing!

Nyuk nyuk nyuk.

Ok, do you still feel defensive? Be honest, now.

Yes, I still feel defensive. Is it wrong to defend myself from false accusations? In subjective reality, it might be pointless, but in objective reality, it's the rational thing to do.

[Savage]

Originally Posted by RomanHD

Yes, I still feel defensive. Is it wrong to defend myself from false accusations? In subjective reality, it might be pointless, but in objective reality, it's the rational thing to do.

Actually it's equally pointless in objective reality.

[RomanHD]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

Actually it's equally pointless in objective reality.

Really? Lawyers should be going out of business soon, then.

[James81]

Originally Posted by RomanHD

Yes, I still feel defensive. Is it wrong to defend myself from false accusations? In subjective reality, it might be pointless, but in objective reality, it's the rational thing to do.

Nah, it's not wrong to defend yourself.

It's just not very effective if your aim is to learn a new viewpoint.

Imagine going into a classroom in school, sitting down in your math class, and asking the teacher to prove that 2+2 = 4. The teach then says, "Well if I have two apples and I put them with two other apples, and you count them, how many apples will you now have?"

And then you say, "Why did you use apples as an example. I hate apples."

Do you think the teacher would rub you and pet you and call you George?

Or would she facepalm and take some Xanax?

[Angela]

Originally Posted by RomanHD

Why do you guys have to attack my openness to foreign ideas is beyond me.

Although I can see where it might sound like we're attacking your openness to foreign ideas, if you were to shift your perspective, you might find that you can see we're supporting you in getting what you want. (Pardon me for including you in the royal "we," James, but I'm fairly sure that's what you're doing here.)

[Lucidism]

In the objective reality, some false accusations are worth defending yourself against (with lawyers) whereas others are no big deal and should be laughed at, if anything.

In regards to Erin's abilities, the only way for you to "know for sure" is to test her yourself. Get a reading and see how it goes. If she doesn't tell you anything special, then you know she has no special abilities. Well, at least no special abilities for you.

Whether you live in a subjective or objective world, there are many experiences in life that can only be experienced if you believe they can be experienced. Falling in love is a popular one. Can anyone fall in love without at least a small part of them believing in it? I doubt it.

[Bing Wu]

It seems to me that the skeptics out there:

1. Would never get a reading with a psychic
2. Aren't open to the idea of psychic abilities
3. Want the psychic to go out of their way to prove something to them, when they're not open to any perspective other than their own, and wouldn't ever buy a reading from said psychic anyways.

That being said, I think Steve did a marvelous job in his replies. How did I manifest such a discussion into my reality?

[James81]

Originally Posted by Angela

(Pardon me for including you in the royal "we," James, but I'm fairly sure that's what you're doing here.)

Yeah.

I'm about half convinced he's the part of me that gets defensive over stuff, so if I work it out with him, maybe I can work it out with myself. We all win.

[Savage]

Originally Posted by RomanHD

Really? Lawyers should be going out of business soon, then.

Many would like to.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by RomanHD

Yes, I still feel defensive. Is it wrong to defend myself from false accusations? In subjective reality, it might be pointless, but in objective reality, it's the rational thing to do.

I accuse you of being a giant pointy-butted lime-green giraffe.



Is defending yourself from that accusation a rational thing to do?

[Angela]

Originally Posted by James81

Yeah.

I'm about half convinced he's the part of me that gets defensive over stuff, so if I work it out with him, maybe I can work it out with myself. We all win.

No kiddin', my brother. It's not difficult at all to see him as an aspect of my consciousness.

[Ecce Homo]

Originally Posted by JSB

RE: Burden of proof


How To Handle Public Criticism

Excerpt:

"I’ve learned that other people’s opinions of me are based on expectations and assumptions that may not be accurate, and that they must do their own research to arrive at the truth. I’m not required to do that research for them."

Well that explains why Erin isn’t here defending herself. (As if there was anything to defend anyway.)

Either Erin is wise or she’s lazy like me. I’m going with Erin is wise for the win!

PS: Requiring proof before you will open yourself up to new experiences also seems quite burdensome. So the defendant (Erin) has to prove herself to the plaintiff (the pseudo-skeptic), while the plaintiff himself has to carry around a boat load of expectations about proof and impossibilities and scam artists and deluded masses. That's a whole lot of burden bearing going on! No wonder some skeptics sound cranky!

[Lucidism]

Hey Ecce Homo, I like your avatar!

Originally Posted by Angela

Is defending yourself from that accusation a rational thing to do?

Um, I'll jump to the defense on his behalf. He is a PURPLE giraffe, Angela. What are you - blind or something?

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Lucidism

Hey Ecce Homo, I like your avatar!


Um, I'll jump to the defense on his behalf. He is a PURPLE giraffe, Angela. What are you - blind or something?

Thanks for clarifying, Lucidism! Because as you know, only the purple ones are edible.

[Lucidism]

Originally Posted by Angela

Because as you know, only the purple ones are edible.

Yep yep. Everyone knows that.

[Ecce Homo]

Originally Posted by Lucidism

Hey Ecce Homo, I like your avatar!

Thanks Lucidism! Yours is lovely also. I looked at yours and I saw myself on the inside of that house, sitting near a fire place, under a blanket, snuggling up to someone I love, drinking hot tea and sitting in companionable silence.

Thanks for giving me the excuse to imagine something that made me feel good!

Edit: ok, that looks more like a barn and less like a house, but still...