To Erin - Questions from a Skeptic

[nickynoodles]

Hi Erin,

I just listened to and really enjoyed your 'Being Psychic' podcast. I'd class myself as a skeptic, but hopefully an open minded one. Here are just a few thoughts that came in my skeptical mind as I was listening...

If animals have 'souls', how far down the food chain does that go? Do cows have souls, how about wasps, fleas, bacteria? To me, it just doesn't seem logical that only humans would have souls given how close we are to primates, but it doesn't seem conceivable that a flea's consciousness lives on after death.

If I were a psychic medium I would be keen to prove my abilities under the review of others. If you imagine an experiment with 20 people. 10 who make up a deceased person to channel, and 10 who want to contact a genuine deceased person. I would expect a genuine physic to score 10/10 on the fakes. Is that a valid assumption? I've seen videos of supposedly genuine mediums being tripped up by getting in contact with a fake dead person.

There's $1 million up for grabs for anyone who can reproduce their psychic abilities under strict conditions. Have you considered trying for this, if not, why not? Challenge Info

Why do you think you hear of so few murder cases being solved by psychics? Even if police forces are reluctant to use mediums, could mediums not channel relevant information and call information lines to help the police?

Many thanks if you do read and answer .. I'm genuinely interested.

[Erin Pavlina]

Hi Nicky,

James Randi doesn't make his challenge available to anyone anymore. now he selects the people he wants to test and he goes after high profile types. We've had the James Randi discussion in this forum many times. Do a search

As for the police. I was contacted by someone from the show Psychic Detective, who asked me if I wanted to be on the show solving crimes. I told them I'd love to but i had no experience. They said to call them back when I had experience as it's not something every psychic can do. Like doctors who have different specialities, so do psychics. But while I had them on the phone I told them I would love to get into that kind of work and asked them how to do that. They told me it's very difficult because the police will not work with a psychic/medium until and unless they have already proven they can solve a crime. It's sort of a chicken/egg problem. In order to solve a crime, they told me to start with local cases that are publicized.

The problem is that the police won't even take your phone call most of the time. But, they told me that even if I got in with the police that the police would disavow me working with them because the public doesn't want to think the police are using psychics, so a condition of working with the police is that you're not allowed to tell anyone waht you've done.

Fast forward a little. I have, to date, helped the police find one missing person who turned out to be dead. I found him. Remotely even. I wasn't anywhere near the city where it happened. But the dead guy came to me and told me where he was. I told my liaison with the police. They moved the search, and found him right where I said he was, and he had died exactly the way I said he did (which was very odd and unusual). I was excited (and of course sad that the guy was dead as a family was very much waiting for news on the whereabouts of their beloved) but I was planning on sharing the details of the venture when I was told not to ever speak of it and that I couldn't use the incident to help further myself. Just telling you what I"ve said now is probably borderline but I'm not mentioning what city or what police dept it was or the names of the people involved.

Anyway, long story short, mediumship is already well documented by researchers. You just have to be interested and willing to go find it. Many of the famous mediums out there including john edward, lisa williams, and alison dubois have been studied and found to be legitimate by real researchers, not magicians. Look into it

[nickynoodles]

Thanks for replying Erin. On reflection, I agree with you about the James Randi stuff. He seems to change the goal posts at will which is a shame; it seems less about research and more about exposing frauds.

I actually read some of the work of researcher Gary Schwarz The VERITAS Research Program - Home. As far as I know this is the most rigorous experiment into mediumship to date. The results of this research are sadly inconclusive under peer review though. It's a shame there isn't more focus on doing quality research of this kind.

Skepticism aside, it's good to hear that you helped a criminal case. I can certainly believe that there is some paranormal phenomenon occurring here, but not a survival of consciousness one. If we have a soul, a chimp / wasp / flea should also have a soul ... and that's just never seemed 'right' to me.

[Erin Pavlina]

Think of it more this way. We are all energy inhabiting matter, vibrating at a slower density than that which we vibrate when we're not wearing our physical bodies. There are levels of consciousness, and who knows what the consciousness level of a wasp or flea may become. Perhaps they are merely tiny projections of Source Consciousness, or perhaps we are tiny to other beings out there in the cosmos. Just because we don't interact with wasps and fleas at a soul level doesn't mean they don't have a soul. And what is a soul but a projection of consciousness anyway. Let them be what they are and respect their right to have their experiences of life.

[nickynoodles]

Thanks Erin, that's a way of viewing things that I hadn't considered before.

[Elfwing]

Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina

Think of it more this way. We are all energy inhabiting matter, vibrating at a slower density than that which we vibrate when we're not wearing our physical bodies. There are levels of consciousness, and who knows what the consciousness level of a wasp or flea may become. Perhaps they are merely tiny projections of Source Consciousness, or perhaps we are tiny to other beings out there in the cosmos. Just because we don't interact with wasps and fleas at a soul level doesn't mean they don't have a soul. And what is a soul but a projection of consciousness anyway. Let them be what they are and respect their right to have their experiences of life.

I haven't considered this either - thanks for posting it.

[Susie]

What about taking a lie detector test? Of course they aren't foolproof, but I believe they have some credence.

I just find it to be troubling that you (Erin) have confessed to having been what sounds like a pathological liar. I have my doubts that it is really that easy to just turn off the propensity to lie like you said in an old blog post. Maybe you really, truly did, but I don't think it's out of bounds for me to be skeptical of a psychic who admits that they were known to lie all of the time!

[Aware]

Originally Posted by Susie

What about taking a lie detector test? Of course they aren't foolproof, but I believe they have some credence.

I just find it to be troubling that you (Erin) have confessed to having been what sounds like a pathological liar. I have my doubts that it is really that easy to just turn off the propensity to lie like you said in an old blog post. Maybe you really, truly did, but I don't think it's out of bounds for me to be skeptical of a psychic who admits that they were known to lie all of the time!

I think I missed a bit, where did Erin lie? or "confess" to lying?

[sirkinm]

Originally Posted by Aware

I think I missed a bit, where did Erin lie? or "confess" to lying?

It's in the archives under "I'm a Pathological Liar" I think Susie is just being weird.

I don't quite get what a lie detector would do. Would she be testing whether she believes that she has psychic abilities? I'm pretty sure Erin does believe this. Would she be testing whether her psychic impressions are objectively true? I don't think a lie detector would test this.

[Susie]

Um, no, I wasn't just "being weird." I've been reading Erin's blog since it first began and that entry stuck in my mind. Here's the link, which could have been titled, "I Used to Be A Pathological Liar":

How To Be Honest All The Time

"When I was in grade school I really enjoyed lying. Not the white lies you tell your mom when you ate cookies that you weren’t supposed to. I’m talking about the elaborate lies you tell friends to make yourself appear to be better than you are. I remember convincing my friends in 3rd grade that my father was the President of Coca Cola. I remember convincing my friends in 5th grade that I had gone deaf in one ear. That was a lot of fun. As I got older, my lying continued. I enjoyed people’s reactions to my seemingly amazing life. "

"In my usual fashion, I told him lies just like I had been telling other people. I made up elaborate stories to get him to be more interested in me because I wasn’t sure the truth would be enough to make him want to continue working with me. "

Yes, she does say that she decided to stop lying, but that sounds hard to believe it would be that easy to just switch off that mode of existing. Sure, it's possible, but it does give me more than a little seed of doubt now that you see Erin is raking in large amounts of cash for giving psychic readings.

I guess the point of lie detector test would be to see if Erin is consciously lying about being psychic, or least say, 20% intuition, 80% lies.

[spirit4711]

Originally Posted by Susie

...
Yes, she does say that she decided to stop lying, but that sounds hard to believe it would be that easy to just switch off that mode of existing. Sure, it's possible, but it does give me more than a little seed of doubt now that you see Erin is raking in large amounts of cash for giving psychic readings.
...

Well, it does sound weird to me.

You want Erin to prove to you she's not lying? Why would she do that? Will you prove to her (or to us) you are not a liar? Come on...

It's your decision to trust her, or not. Based on whatever works for you. But you don't have the right to ask her. Elementary politeness.

[Elfwing]

I'm pretty sure that Erin is the same person she was when she was fifteen. After all, we never change.

Sarcasm aside, it's your choice whether to trust her or not, as Spirit said.

[Susie]

Nah, I don't want her to prove anything to me, I guess people believe what they believe.

Imagine if you had a friend all through grade school and high school who insisted her dad was CEO of Coca Cola and that she was deaf in one ear when she really wasn't, etc. All kinds of wild tales, for years.

After highschool you fall out of touch. Then you find her online years later and find out she's making a living as a psychic. What would you think? That she finally gave up on telling lies and is making an honest living?

Listen, I like Erin, but these stories just sound so darn convenient. "I told the police exactly where the body was and the unusual way the person died, but they swore me to absolute secrecy!" Ok...

[spirit4711]

Originally Posted by Susie

...
Listen, I like Erin, but these stories just sound so darn convenient. "I told the police exactly where the body was and the unusual way the person died, but they swore me to absolute secrecy!" Ok...

You have a funny way of showing you like her?

In my country we have a saying: "With a friend like you, I don't need enemies".

Anyway, what's your point? You want to convince us Erin is lying? Or what?

[Erin Pavlina]

Hi Susie, I think you misconstrued some things from that blog entry.

First, when i told my friends my dad was the CEO of Coca Cola that lie lasted just a day or so. Same with all the other lies I told as a child. When people began questioning me I told them I was "teasing." Having a 9 year old daughter I can see the same thing happens among all her friends. They enjoy seeing what they can get away with. Show me a youngster who has never told a lie if you can.

Second, it sounds to me like you simply don't believe in paranormal abilities. So if I claim to have them, I must be a liar, and since I admitted in one blog entry that as a child I used to tell some lies, that clinches the deal for you. Am I right?

Thirdly, I think one of the reasons people think what you're saying is a little weird is that you claim to have read all my blog entries. How do you read everything I've said in nearly 400 articles and draw the conclusion that I am a liar? Most people find me to be compassionate, caring, and understanding of spirituality at a deep level. You must be looking through the lens of "liar" and see everything else I've written as some vast lie that's been building for years and years. It's a weird lens to look through.

The truth is that every thing I've written in my blog is 100% true, including the part about me lying (oh the irony of honestly admitting to lying as a child. you believe that and nothing else?).

We all have psychic abilities. If you're one of those people that assume all psychics are frauds, and I claim to be psychic, you are going to conclude that I am a fraud. That I can't do anything about. But you've got to at least admit that I believe I'm psychic. How could someone fake believing they are psychic through 400 blog entries and 1400 readings?

So call me a fraud if that's what floats your boat, but to say I am lying about believing I am psychic is just plain weird.

As for the police and the missing person... I agree it sounds convenient. That's why I never brought it up publicly in a blog entry because I can't back it up with a testimonial. It frustrates me that I'm not allowed to talk about it. But that's the price I paid for actually helping out this family. Instead of applauding my effort to be of service you use that as evidence that I am perpetuating a lie. Gee thanks.

I hope that one day you can open yourself up to the possibility that psychics are real. For someone who is totally skeptical of me, one has to wonder why you've read so much of what I have to say and invested so much time and energy in reading my words.

[lacinato]

Yes, weird assumptions and conclusion. I can see thinking Erin is not psychic, but not that she is a pathological liar about it.
Also: If a suspected pathological liar says they're not psychic, does that mean they are?

By the way, I really like that blog entry about lying.

[Susie]

I do believe that paranormal abilities exist. And no, I'm not trying to convince anyone that Erin is a fraud. I guess I'm just expressing the feelings of doubt that I've had all along since reading that blog entry way back when and then seeing the development of her psychic career since then.

I am a very, very fast reader and I read tons of blogs on the internet. I didn't seek out Erin's blog but started reading it because it was here at Steve's website. I don't think it's unusual being that I read Steve's blog that I'd also read Erin's or that it indicates any kind of "weirdness." Do you read any blogs where you don't necessarily agree with the author or know that you trust them 100%? Hm, maybe I'm the only one.

I do like Erin, just as I'm sure that her friends who she lied to way back when liked her even though she made stuff up. I've had a friend in real life since I was a kid who liked to spin wild tales, I like him, I just know I can't put much credence in the stories he tells me.

I guess I just want to say it wasn't my intention to say: Erin is a liar! Don't believe her! I was just expressing the doubts I've had for a long time which were planted mainly by that blog entry. Just because I believe that paranormal abilities are possible doesn't mean that I believe that everyone who says they are psychic really is psychic.

I'm not convinced about Erin one way or another to be honest. And I didn't mean this to be a big insult or anything. It was just a doubt that was rattling around my head for a long time when I read about the psychic stuff here and I just finally expressed it.

And I didn't mean to use the police work story as any kind of 'evidence', but just as an example of something that provoked more feelings of doubt about authenticity. Is that really so horrible? This was a thread about skepticism but I guess maybe I shouldn't have chimed in!

[Susie]

Well listen, I want to apologize. I hate internet forum drama and even though what I said did reflect my true doubts, I know it's not nice to say to someone that you think they could be lying. I wouldn't have said that to Erin's face if I met her so I shouldn't have said it here, which is why I've never said a peep about it before.

I guess it's just that I read that entry about lying way back towards the start of Erin's presence at this website and it did color my future perceptions of what she wrote. Sometimes I would put doubts aside and take what she wrote at face value, but sometimes things would trigger my doubts again like the police story. But I shouldn't have said what I was thinking because it was just plain rude.

Also like I said, I have a friend who told tales since childhood, and he STILL (in his 30's) will tell made up stuff to make his life seem more interesting. I shouldn't project onto Erin that she has continued to make stuff up just because my friend who also lied a lot in his youth still makes things up.

You don't have to accept my apology because I know it was pretty insulting what I said, but here it is anyway.

[spirit4711]

@Susie, it takes character to apologize, I commend you for that!

Reading back, I read your posts more as challenging Erin's honesty than expressing your doubt, and how you feel about those doubts. This is what I find interesting: what specifically makes you sometimes doubt Erin's honesty, and what specifically makes you sometimes accept Erin at face value?

[carenkh]

Originally Posted by Susie

Yes, she does say that she decided to stop lying, but that sounds hard to believe it would be that easy to just switch off that mode of existing.

I, too, lied a lot as a kid. To keep from getting in trouble, to "make" people like me, because my lie was more interesting than the truth -- a lot of reasons!

Now, I am one of the most honest people I know - radical honesty. To the point where I'll pause in a conversation to make sure what I'm about to say "feels" honest to me.

It wasn't a sudden change, though it might have looked like that to someone on the outside of me. It was a lot of looking inside, learning to accept myself, learning to realize that lying, even about a seemingly little thing, can prevent things from flowing as they should. Experiencing telling the truth and having people still love me.

Now I've lived for quite a few years being honest, and I wouldn't go back to the way I used to be at all. Kinda like the most organized people you know were probably very disorganized at some point - you see how living that way hinders you, so you make sure to not live that way any more.

[Erin Pavlina]

Susie, no worries. I think your friend who you mentioned is a pathological liar is triggering some issues that are probably unrelated to me.

[lacinato]

I agree that it takes guts to apologize. It's nice to see a thread end so nicely!

[greeneye]

Originally Posted by Susie

Um, no, I wasn't just "being weird." I've been reading Erin's blog since it first began and that entry stuck in my mind. Here's the link, which could have been titled, "I Used to Be A Pathological Liar":

How To Be Honest All The Time

"When I was in grade school I really enjoyed lying. Not the white lies you tell your mom when you ate cookies that you weren’t supposed to. I’m talking about the elaborate lies you tell friends to make yourself appear to be better than you are. I remember convincing my friends in 3rd grade that my father was the President of Coca Cola. I remember convincing my friends in 5th grade that I had gone deaf in one ear. That was a lot of fun. As I got older, my lying continued. I enjoyed people’s reactions to my seemingly amazing life. "

"In my usual fashion, I told him lies just like I had been telling other people. I made up elaborate stories to get him to be more interested in me because I wasn’t sure the truth would be enough to make him want to continue working with me. "

Yes, she does say that she decided to stop lying, but that sounds hard to believe it would be that easy to just switch off that mode of existing. Sure, it's possible, but it does give me more than a little seed of doubt now that you see Erin is raking in large amounts of cash for giving psychic readings.

I guess the point of lie detector test would be to see if Erin is consciously lying about being psychic, or least say, 20% intuition, 80% lies.

This is very intriguing to me. I believe learning to live without lies is indeed a part of conscious growth and that pathological liars do change. I think it's actually one of the basic steps to growth and people learn not to lie at a pretty early stage. And once you've experienced the huge change in self-esteem, authority and consciousness, it's pretty hard to revert to lying.
Here is my own experience: When I was very young, I used to steal toys from the nursery and from other children. I quickly learned that no object is so valuable as to deserve risking your integrity over. It took me a while to learn the same lesson about lies though. I lied all the time - I believe all children do. When I became a teenager, I lied that I had been raped in order to attract attention. I only admitted to it two moths later, after having regretted my lie a million times over. I also lied to friends in order to cover for different things I was ashamed of. And then I lied to my mother every night to explain why I had returned home 10 minutes late. She saw right trough it though, as did everyone else. At one point society rejected me and as I had nobody to put up a false facade for, I became much more authentic. I have been openly accepted by people ever since and guess what: I stopped lying.
There is a process involved here that I believe is common for most pathological liars and explains why they usually stop and never revert:
1. Most children lie but usually stop when they realize it's ridiculous. The teenagers who do it are usually those who feel they ought to be much better than they are and who are dissatisfied with who they are. They are also the ones most prone to pursuing soncious growth.
2. In the process of concious growth, they begin catching up to some of their goals and realizing their lives are unusual enough as it is - they gain authority which naturally leads them to phase out of lying.
3. They feel a huge burden fall of their chest and are very proud of themselves for realizing the benefits of being authentic. The shift to becoming truthful usually signifies the beginning of a whole new era of their lives. To me, it was comparable to a quantum leap.
4. They feel immense pride at being truthful and are constantly rewarded by the way they feel about themselves and the way others see them. They strive to be even more truthful, as this sets them apart from the crowd - the very thing they have desired all along.

So this is why I believe Erin is a truthful and authentic person. When you really see and feel the difference between falsehood and authenticity, it's like being given a choice between living in a castle and rolling in a puddle of mud - it's a no-brainer. I still have my doubts about the paranormal, even though I am very interested in it, as I am still working on my version of reality. But I am deeply convinced that Erin does not lie.

[Martyn13]

Hi
I hope I can give my views without it being taken 'as a personal insult.
The problem is often that someone who is expressing a logical reasoned viewpoint in a detached manner, elicits an emotive reaction from those who are entrenched (attached) in their views.

I have been involved in self development for years, but also am able to skeptify scientifically when needed - So I consider myself to be on both sides of the fence.

On the whole, I find James Randi's website rather rude and personal and closed to ideas which they can't understand, but also often more able to discuss things logically and scientifically.

What I liked about this site was that everyone was polite to each other, whatever their views - as well as having experience of aspects of reality which others might not understand

That is why I was a little disappointed in spirit4711's reaction to Susie.
Susie expressed only a doubt, based on fact, and spirit4711 had a 'defensive' reaction which seemed to me to be emotive. Susie was the one who expressed doubt, and was not sure, but spirit4711 was the one who had strong (attached) views and didn't like them being questioned - but the questioning was undogmatic - simply expressing a doubt!

I have experienced this (in the real world) - When you express a little doubt, and someone has a very closed minded view, you're the one who is accused of being opinionated, but really, they are seeing theri own projection.

So I was quite disappointed that this thread did not conform to the usual high standards of open minded and polite discussion (at first!)

I see as a baseline for open discussion, that each person is able to express their thought out views without fear of ridicule

Enough about the personal aspects - I needed to express that.

I also wish to comment on the substance of this thread, but will do so in another post, so as to make a 'clean' start!

[Martyn13]

Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina

The problem is that the police won't even take your phone call most of the time. But, they told me that even if I got in with the police that the police would disavow me working with them because the public doesn't want to think the police are using psychics, so a condition of working with the police is that you're not allowed to tell anyone waht you've done.

Fast forward a little. I have, to date, helped the police find one missing person who turned out to be dead. I found him. Remotely even. I wasn't anywhere near the city where it happened. But the dead guy came to me and told me where he was. I told my liaison with the police. They moved the search, and found him right where I said he was, and he had died exactly the way I said he did (which was very odd and unusual). I was excited (and of course sad that the guy was dead as a family was very much waiting for news on the whereabouts of their beloved) but I was planning on sharing the details of the venture when I was told not to ever speak of it and that I couldn't use the incident to help further myself. Just telling you what I"ve said now is probably borderline but I'm not mentioning what city or what police dept it was or the names of the people involved.

I'm not interested in discussing the truth or untruth of this statement -

However, I want to comment on the 'Open-ness' issue.
To me, being Open comes above anything else. If I allowed others to dictate to me what I could or could not tell others, this would cause all sorts of 'psychic blocks' and 'nervous tension accumulation' - So 'Open-ness is something that I value - Much higher than helping someone on one specific occasion.
I see being Open as a prerequisite in self development - having the courage to be honest and not to hide things - No matter who tells you to.
I see hiding things as a form of 'lying' -
In court you have to tell the 'Whole truth'.
To me, the 'Whole' picture is the 'real' one, and anything less than the 'Whole is meaningless - hence 'Holistic'.
So I personally would never compromise so called spiritual 'Open-ness', just because someone else wants me to hide things.
If one lives in the present, one is unconcerned about the consequences of not hiding things and being open, and then trusts the universe.

Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina

James Randi doesn't make his challenge available to anyone anymore. now he selects the people he wants to test and he goes after high profile types.

I need to correct this -
James randi's challenge is still open to anyone

I must add that, although I cannot comment on 'lying', I can only go on facts as I see them -
and to state something as fact when it isn't and is easily checkable, means that the person has said what they know, but then 'guessed' what they don't know - The alternative is to be completely honest and to say that they are not sure about it, rather than guessing and saying something as definitely true, when they are not 100% sure.

Finally, I hope I haven't been too harsh, as people lie all the time, but it is only because we are in the self development community, that I feel it is appropriate to discuss this, as I value open-ness and honesty