A Spiritual Perspective on Homosexuality (Blog)

[Erin Pavlina]

Use this thread to discuss the following entry from Erin Pavlina's blog:

A Spiritual Perspective on Homosexuality

[SenorKaffee]

And don´t forget that there are A LOT of humans on this planet. Mankind is not likely to become extinct because of homosexuality, even if it would be the sexual orientation of the majority.

The perspective is a little cold, but in theory the continuation of our species could be completely based on artificial insemination - completely seperated from sexual intercourse.

[Erki]

But what happens if human race becomes extinct? Would we continue living on the "other side"?

[Erin Pavlina]

Homosexuality is not going to cause us to become extinct.

But yeah, our souls/spirits/consciousness would continue living on the other side. There are many states of being. This earthly existence is just one of them.

[Vanilla]

As a lesbian...I just wanted to say...THANK YOU SO, SO, SO MUCH for that blog, Erin!! Happy New Year! =)

[helgi]

I find that when I imagine myself to be gay, i.e. identify with a homosexual stereotype, I feel an instant heightening of peace, openness and wellbeing.

Whenever I see a man that is open and joyful my gay-o-meter lights up -- it is as if 'enlightened' qualities are somehow more common in gay men. One of the reasons I've come up with is that gay men seem to have less need to identify with things, status and so on, and that they are somehow more comfortable with simply 'being.'

Anyone noticed this?

[KeithHandy]

I think gay people are in a position (cue Beavis and Butthead saying "huhuhuh, he said position") to learn certain life lessons more quickly than others. This is why you probably tend to meet a higher percentage of gays with a better sense of perspective and a healthier sense of humor.

[Mom2boys]

I personally like gay people. I think they are a lot less judgemental than most people I know. Living in the ultra conservative southern baptist-dominated area of the south, it just burns me up the way people view gays here. I have a step-brother-in-law that just recently decided to come out and it is killing his dad and causing them communication problems. His dad says he can come home anytime but just as long as he never brings any of his "friends" with him. I tried telling my mother in law, who happens to have the same views as her husband, that gay people are just as normal as anybody and that there is no reason that they should be viewed as and treated differently. But of course she's got that whole "it's in the bible that it's a sin to be gay" thing and the whole issue surrounding sex that is supposedly all messed up. They don't believe being gay happens normally and are convinced that their son just got involved with the wrong crowd that turned him gay. His dad is always complaining that he never calls enough or visits enough. Well, duhhh, I wonder why... I'd be doing the same thing if I was in his shoes. I so wish I could open their eyes a little bit, just enough to help them understand their son.

J

[Erin Pavlina]

Well I grew up in Los Angeles and I gotta tell you, there isn't much of a stigma about being gay there. I know there is some, sure, but not like some places around the country.

I happen to love gay men as well. Just knowing they aren't staring at my boobs while we're conversing is a big plus in my book. If my son turned out to be gay, I would have no problem with it whatsoever. As long as he is in a loving relationship and no one is there against their will, I'm happy as a clam. Same for my daughter. People are people, people

[Hsiang-Lin]

Erin, from this article, I take it you believe in reincarnation since we can choose to be gay for our next lifetime?

I've never had a problem with gays unless they acted sketchy around me. In that case, it would be more "fight-or-flight" response than judgment

Although I wonder if it's actually healthy to explore the gay side of you? I've had thoughts of gay experiences in my head ever-so-briefly before, but I was so disturbed that I tried to stop myself. Is it actually something worth exploring? I am actually really scared to explore that side. It's kind of one thing in my PD path that I don't want to see in this lifetime.

[Bing Wu]

Well, being a homosexual man, I do find that women tend to feel comfortable around me - as Erin pointed out, it's not like I'm going to be staring at their chests. However, men don't feel quite as comfortable when my eyes are drawn to their crotches. So it's a trade off. I'm sure a straight man would love to be as comfortable around female strangers as me. On the other hand, I feel more awkward around men.

I really like Erin's spiritual perspective on homosexuality, that we are sexless beings in the spiritual realm, so whether our physical forms are attracted to others of the same sex isn't necessarily right or wrong. Also, Erin says that people like me have chosen to be homosexual, well, that must be something I'm not conscious of. I don't think I would have chosen to be homosexual, at least not at the time that I became aware of it, there was a lot of stigma and I wanted to kill myself, now I'm much more comfortable with it. As I become an increasingly spiritual person, I will reconcile with the reasons I chose homosexuality. At least on a practical level, I don't think it was a very convenient decision.

[Erin Pavlina]

Alex, not all beings choose to be homosexual before they incarnate. Sometimes it happens during an incarnation. So you may not have chosen it in advance.

Hsiang-Lin: Yes, explore those thoughts and don't feel shame. You can choose to act on them or not act on them. That's your choice. But don't disregard your own feelings out of fear.

Life trials come in many forms, and coming out as a gay person in our society is definitely tough, but I think it's getting better.

[angelicfruit]

Originally Posted by helgi

Whenever I see a man that is open and joyful my gay-o-meter lights up -- it is as if 'enlightened' qualities are somehow more common in gay men. One of the reasons I've come up with is that gay men seem to have less need to identify with things, status and so on, and that they are somehow more comfortable with simply 'being.'

Anyone noticed this?

Eckhart Tolle comments on this in his book "The Power of Now" with his usual grace and simplicity:

"In the quest for enlightenment, is being gay a help or a hindrance, or does it not make any difference?

...the realization that you are 'different' from others may force you to disidentify from socially conditioned patterns of thought and behavior. This will automatically raise your level of consciousness above that of the unconscious majority, whose members unquestioningly take on board all inherited patterns. In that respect, being gay can be a help. Being an outsider to some extent, someone who does not 'fit in' with others or is rejected by them for whatever reason, makes life difficult, but it also place you at advantage as far as enlightenment is concerned. It takes you out of unconsciousness almost by force.

On the other hand, if you then develop a sense of identify based on your gayness, you have escaped one trap only to fall into another."

I think Eckhart's hit the nail on the head. I'm gay and I know some gay people who are extraordinary self-aware and conscious. But I also know some gay people who live there lives almost exclusively through their sexuality and everything they do has to have a gay connection. I think sexuality is incidental and I don't live my life through it, but I can see why some people choose to.

[The David]

Originally Posted by KeithHandy

I think gay people are in a position (cue Beavis and Butthead saying "huhuhuh, he said position") to learn certain life lessons more quickly than others. This is why you probably tend to meet a higher percentage of gays with a better sense of perspective and a healthier sense of humor.

They learn, at an early age, the dark side of social conditioning.

[HealingMaven]

Thank you Erin. Whenever someone I've previously respected comes up with a potentially controversial topic, I always find myself holding my breath, waiting for the sucker punch of dissapointment. The punch didn't come this time, and I greatly appreciate that.

[openeyes]

Originally Posted by angelicfruit

I think Eckhart's hit the nail on the head. I'm gay and I know some gay people who are extraordinary self-aware and conscious. But I also know some gay people who live there lives almost exclusively through their sexuality and everything they do has to have a gay connection. I think sexuality is incidental and I don't live my life through it, but I can see why some people choose to.

You about wrote my post for me

Being somewhere between bi and gay (which is likely why I often prefer cuddling with women to actually having sex), one of my favorite books on the subject is “Spirit and the Flesh”, by anthropologist Walter L. Williams. Basically bisexuality was the norm among the ancient Greeks and most Native American tribes. Many tribes had what was generically called by the French “berdache”. Other names would be winkte or two-spirit person. One of the prime excuses early Europeans used for slaughtering Native Americans was that they were “smiting the sodomites”. Thus the bisexual/berdache issue is something that still isn’t readily spoken of.

As a gay man, a berdache was the bridge between the sexes, serving as the center of many rituals even to this day (A photographer friend noticed this recently in Mexico). Medicine men would consult him in spiritual matters, and a secret name given by a berdache was highly prized. Parents actually felt lucky when they had a gay son, as it improved their social standing in the tribe. In some tribes there were also “manly hearted women” who became warriors and could take on wives, while the berdache largely did women’s work (this fits with me being interested in midwifery) and may become one of the wives of a man.

As for the ancient greeks, there are at least two types of love: heterosexual and gay love. The name for gay love was Athena ouranus (or Uranus), spiritual love, while heterosexual love was seen as more base. In many areas around the world in earlier times, men had sex with other men until they were ready to have families. Natural birth control.

Personally, my dad feels fine with whatever I do so long as I stay healthy. There are some seriously self destructive aspects of popular western gay culture that I tend to be weary of, but there are deeper spiritual aspects out there. You just won’t see so much of it in the press or at circuit parties. I dated men for a while upon entering college, then went back to women, and for the past year have been celibate, focusing on other aspects of my life and relationships more. I value my experiences with both genders. Being with men at first can be a little scary, but at the same time I’m glad I didn’t let myself be limited by my fears.

PS: for anyone contemplating physical experimentation, I highly recommend “The Ins and Outs of Gay Sex: A medical handbook for men” by Stephen Goldstone (a gay doctor). Take care of yourself.

[The David]

Here's an interesting question (please, don't turn it into a debate): Does anyone here think it's possible (even if it's not plausible) to change one's orientation, even a little?

[Adam]

I believe that biological sexual attraction to other people is set along a continuum with a normal bell curve. Some people are waaaaaay at one end. Some people are waaaaaay at the other end, but most people are clustered between 66% and 75% heterosexual.

A person who is halfway between can easily choose which gender they want to concentrate on, so follows society by being heterosexual. A person in the 33% range, closer to being homosexual, would be the people who we consider bi-sexual. They choose heterosexual relationships from social pressure, but are still very attracted to people of their own gender. Any smaller than 25%, though, and the choice becomes increasingly more difficult, so these people remain in homosexual relationships.

My percentages are based on the number of gender-specific traits that a person is attracted to, such as hip size, facial hair, genitalia, etc. 0% means that a person is only sexually attracted to the traits of their own gender, and 100% means that a person is only attracted to the traits exclusive to the other gender... I'm not trying to imply that one preference is better than another by putting one on any one side of a scale or another; that's simply the way that it was explained to me.

As far as whether a person can choose their preference or not, because of the reason I just explained, I would have to say "it depends."

[The David]

I was just curious, because it seems quite politically incorrect to say that sexual orientation is not completely fixed, but I've always viewed it as more fluid. Now, I don't believe orientation is entirely a choice, but I feel that if one is dissatisfied with their sexual preference, and understands their mental processes enough, they may be able to achieve some measure of change. Not necessarily in an Exodus International sort of way, but in the way one can switch between certain gender roles and cultivate new 'tastes', so to speak.

[Eli]

some things in life change but
god does not change. Look to history to see how he dealt with subject and believe what U want. Peace.

[kljsadfhklj]

Originally Posted by The David

Does anyone here think it's possible (even if it's not plausible) to change one's orientation, even a little?

I do. To speak of my own experience, as I grew in my development I found that after taking fear and social preconditioning out of the equation, I like people, not males or females. That's a heterossexual to I-don't-care-sexual change, isn't it?

[Michael Chui]

In keeping with my theories on gender-neutrality (and I separate gender from sex), I've had a long-standing inclination to believe that human beings are naturally bisexual. This is hard for me to swallow myself, since I don't seem to be. But at the same time, perhaps it can be explained in terms of the fact that human beings are omnivores: however, some people are vegans, and others are not. Some people make a value judgment via veganism (if you eat meat, you'r evil and horrible!), and others make a similar judgment via heterosexuality.

Similarly, I'd agree with The David and kljsadfhklj in saying that sexual orientation or preference can be changed, again keeping the analogy with dietary habits. We can certainly become vegans, or we can be raised vegans and introduce into our diet some meat.

This makes sense to me.

[Greg Butler]

Here is how Meher Baba explained it: most souls alternate between female and male incarnations. But as any Blackjack player knows, (my metaphor, not his) it is possible to win or lose 10 hands in a row even on an almost 50/50 propostion. And if a soul has, lets say 10 incarnations in a row as a female and then incarnates as a male, the soul will be very, very identified still with a female perspective. It happens eventually to everybody. It's all part of our consciousness growth and understanding.

[The David]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

In keeping with my theories on gender-neutrality (and I separate gender from sex), I've had a long-standing inclination to believe that human beings are naturally bisexual. This is hard for me to swallow myself, since I don't seem to be. But at the same time, perhaps it can be explained in terms of the fact that human beings are omnivores: however, some people are vegans, and others are not. Some people make a value judgment via veganism (if you eat meat, you'r evil and horrible!), and others make a similar judgment via heterosexuality.

Similarly, I'd agree with The David and kljsadfhklj in saying that sexual orientation or preference can be changed, again keeping the analogy with dietary habits. We can certainly become vegans, or we can be raised vegans and introduce into our diet some meat.

This makes sense to me.

Intriguing. I think conditioning has alot to do with it, too. Boys are essentially forced into exaggerated roles of masculinity to a young age-why would they have same-sex attractions after that? If sexual attractions are based on differences (as I think they may be), then it makes no sense for these boys to pursue other boys.

I think that's why distant fathers sometimes produce gay boys, but some boys are gay for no obvious reason. Different types of environment will produce different approaches to gender identity.

[Bing Wu]

Okay, no matter what the rest of you guys say, I still find only guys, and not girls, to be sexually attractive. Should I force myself to like girls? uggghhh.... yuck

[The David]

Originally Posted by Alex Wu

Okay, no matter what the rest of you guys say, I still find only guys, and not girls, to be sexually attractive. Should I force myself to like girls? uggghhh.... yuck

I don't think anyone is forcing you to be gay (or straight, if you're a guy). I'm just saying that if YOU want to change, and YOU think it's possible, then don't let anyone steer you away from that.

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by Alex Wu

Okay, no matter what the rest of you guys say, I still find only guys, and not girls, to be sexually attractive. Should I force myself to like girls? uggghhh.... yuck

And a vegan would say the same thing about meat.

[Vanessa]

To add to Vanilla's comment,

Thank you Erin for writing this post.

[dor]

Originally Posted by The David

Here's an interesting question (please, don't turn it into a debate): Does anyone here think it's possible (even if it's not plausible) to change one's orientation, even a little?

yes, and many people are unhappy with being gay (and NOT because of society) and often ones who have had spirtual transformations have changed their orientation. I personally believe that some, but not all gays can.
I think lesbianism is different then male homosexuality- and probably has something to do with bad experiences with men or absent father figure.
i will say this - even discussing this has been suppressed by aggressive gay lobby groups who try to shout down anyone who might have a dissenting view.
For example in the Epsicopal church - which is being destroyed by the issue - many gay people who became religious and stopped being gay wanted their voices heard - and those voices were ignored by the heads of the church which are pushing for gay marriages and annointing gay bishops (this has enraged for example, African clergy, who live much closer to AIDs and poverty than liberal wealthy US congregations)

But i believe the man who got homosexuality declassified as a disorder studied people who tried to change and determined they could.

Personally I don't condemn people who have those lifestyles but i think when they are embraced by societies at large those societies decline.
However, my main point is that pro-gay lobby groups try to make people who feel bad about being gay feel good- and don't offer them the option or try to suppress the option that changing their lifestyle might help them and be better for them, by even stifling discussion or exploration of the matter.

[mtrimpe]

Recently someone on our forums asked this question: “Where does the preference for apples fit into the existence and higher self of those who prefer apples?” I think some people wonder how the higher realms view the preference for apples. Here is my understanding.

Where there is love, there is Source.

Where there is shame and guilt, there is low vibration.

Where there is control, power, or fear, there is ego.

Just as people who prefer oranges can be engaged in sexual unions that are loving or that are abusive/controlling, so too can two people who prefer apples engage in sexual unions that are loving or that are abusive/controlling.

Do people choose to incarnate knowing they will prefer apples? Yes. Do people choose to incarnate not knowing they will prefer apples and later choose to prefer apples? Yes. Do people choose to incarnate believing they will prefer oranges but end up engaging in acts of apple eating or bi-fruit eating due to earthly influences or an overactive belly chakra? Yes, absolutely.

There is nothing spiritually or physically wrong with a person who prefers apples

As long as there is love and mutual consent and no one is being coerced, controlled, forced, or abused, there is absolutely nothing wrong with preferring apples.

Remember, our higher selves are, in fact, fruit-preference neutral. They appear to be fruit-preferential only once we incarnate. Appreciating the physical charms or physical attributes of a fruit is normal. I know people that prefer oranges who can appreciate the quality of a good Golden Delicious and not consider themselves to prefer apples. And I know a lot of people that prefer apples who can appreciate a nice Valencia, yet they’re comfortably preferring apples.

The spiritual lesson behind preference towards apples is how we all react to its existence. If you react negatively to someone’s fruit-preference, why is that? Why do these differences cause you to feel resistance?

The preference for oranges is obviously important to the continuation of our species. But if we’re just talking about sharing and expressing affection or even lust between each other, why should other people’s choices meet with any resistance from those with different preferences?