Homosexuality

[Shiminey]

Is it normal? Why does it happen?

Where does it fit into the existence and higher self of those who are homosexual?

[Erin Pavlina]

I'll add this topic to my blog entry list so everyone can benefit from the answer. Good question!

[Shiminey]

Thank You. I look forward to the response as this is a subject that has followed me since I was a tot.

[skydust]

my view on this subject is that its normal because it exists. its just a different form for the universe to express itself. society often refers to what most people do or are as normal, and any minory that differs from this is 'abnormal'. this is just a label, as anything that exists is no more or less valid than anything else that exists.

[The Protagonist]

One of my friends just came out as bi. I didn't really expect it, so I too, would like to know this.

[stephencp]

"my view on this subject is that its normal because it exists. its just a different form for the universe to express itself. society often refers to what most people do or are as normal, and any minory that differs from this is 'abnormal'. this is just a label, as anything that exists is no more or less valid than anything else that exists"

Saddam Hussein was just executed for being a murdering criminal. He also "existed" so should we not pass judgement? On the positive side, Christ "existed" but I doubt I'd call him "normal" either.

Why equate existance with "normality"? If nothing is "better" or "worse" than anything else then what is personal development?

Stephen
Power-Book Library: Free personal development, success, inspiration and motivational classics
TSTN | The Success Training Network

[Holistic Star]

"Why does it happen?"

Why not? I don't think it matters whether the people you fall in love with / have sex with have the same genitalia to yours or different. What matters is the relationship and the meeting of two people and the expression of love.


"Where does it fit into the existence and higher self of those who are homosexual?"

No different from the existence and higher self of someone who is heterosexual. Who you have sex with is not you are.

[Cron]

The best scientists in the world do not know how it happens.

However, it is found in a wide variety of higher mamals. Best guess, it is a natural variation.

[skydust]

Originally Posted by stephencp

Saddam Hussein was just executed for being a murdering criminal. He also "existed" so should we not pass judgement? On the positive side, Christ "existed" but I doubt I'd call him "normal" either. Why equate existance with "normality"?

well, i personally think that normal is a value people add to what is most common in the world and also what is acceptable. my point is that whatever exists exists, and its just another manifestation of all that is, just another path of experience. cron said it well, its a natural variation. like an isotope in chemistry. it doesnt mean its worse or better because thats just what that person is choosing to experience right now.

Originally Posted by stephencp

If nothing is "better" or "worse" than anything else then what is personal development?

good question. what is personal development? for me, i would say its to find out the truth of whats really going on.

[Erin Pavlina]

I have writtten the blog entry on this subject that I promised to write. Read it here:

Erin Pavlina’s Blog » Blog Archive » A Spiritual Perspective on Homosexuality

[thatlarkin]

Bravo, Erin. Well said. Thanks to shiminey for raising the issue, but the question "is it NORMAL?" is not as important as "is it healthy?" While homosexuality is dismissed by those who don't understand it and by those whose fear of it is ground in their own shame, it is (when experienced between two consenting adults) an expression of love. And this world needs all the love it can muster. Thanks.

[CreativeSpace]

I am homosexual. Actually there are many words for homosexual, a lot of them not really nice!!! I don't think I like the word homosexual as it sounds really barren and too scientific! But it is only a word isn't it????

Words are powerful things and the word "label" springs to mind when considering Shiminey's question, "Is it normal?". For example does it sound normal when you change the word homosexual for say FAGGOT or QUEER? You have to consider the belief system behind words for example (and I know this is generalistic but I am illustrating the point) if I think of the word QUEER I could think of a very effeminate homosexual who is perhaps weak physically. FAGGOT, it could be said, has villainous qualities!!! What about the belief systems behind words that describe lesbians? DYKE and BUTCH. Bisexuals are called GREEDY. Transgendered individuals have classics such as TRANNY or SHE-MALE or (bizarrely!) FALSE WOMAN! Words like I said have immense power especially in instigating a reaction.

I have decided that I am going to lose the whole label thing as it is so restrictive and prescriptive and how can being homosexual be seen as "normal" when the words that describe it are so harsh. Of course there are other things that suggest homosexuality is not normal like the fact that religion in general has little compassion for it (it is a sin and evil... more power words!) or the fact that AIDS is still seen as the gay plague (even though AIDS does not discriminate). But I think for myself I accept my homosexuality as part of the whole that is me. I am a man that happens to be attracted to men, simple as that. To me it is normal. I have chosen to feel that way and I have also chosen to not buy into the negative scripts of homophobic groups/individuals as the dualistic "us and them" vibe really creates crap. I will continue to present me as being someone normal.

I have until recently been really scared of being me. It would seem that being different from the norm (heterosexual) is potentially dangerous and I have been on the recieving end of verbal and physical abuse. A worse form of abuse is neglect in that I sometimes hide my homosexuality out of "fear" of negative reaction or people show no interest because it causes them discomfort. It can be very odd when you meet guys for the first time say on an average night out and they assume you like women and then there is that awkward moment when you tell them and they look at you like you are an alien! It is a long process but I am sure it will get better.

Oh and why does it happen? There is talk of the gay gene, distant fathers, overbearing mothers (love the old nature/nuture debate) but asking questions like that (which I have done so many times!!) only seems to increase the idea that there is something that is wrong with it. Homosexuals try and find the theory that presents it as being normal whilst homophobics find the theory that can damn it to hell and let it stay in hell! Personally I am not bothered now about the "why" just more about the fact "I am".

I am of now to listen to Judy Garland sing "The Man That Got Away"!

[hollowman]

i love reading the relection of Creativespace.

i notice that religion was hardly mentioned throughout. is it because it is not relevant or it's just make life easier and simpler without involving religion?

[Emilous]

Homosexuality just isn't normal since we need to have sex so we don't get extinct...

my, kinda naive, theory is that people reincarnate and if a female reincarnates as a male human being than she still has feeling for males and therefore since she is in male body so it's he loves men so he is homosexual :P

[cdn2wheeler]

It used to be thought that homosexuality wasn't practiced in the world beyond humans, but thanks to continued research the evidence is pretty clear that the in "animal kingdom" (hate that phrase, but you know what I mean) homosexual behaviour is abundant.

It's just another variation, like hair colour or height.

[robertanthony]

There was something on British Television - apparently information about animal behaviour was censored on both television and books in the U.K.
So when people say that homosexuality is un-natural thats factually incorrect.

[mlc82]

Originally Posted by stephencp

"my view on this subject is that its normal because it exists. its just a different form for the universe to express itself. society often refers to what most people do or are as normal, and any minory that differs from this is 'abnormal'. this is just a label, as anything that exists is no more or less valid than anything else that exists"

Saddam Hussein was just executed for being a murdering criminal. He also "existed" so should we not pass judgement? On the positive side, Christ "existed" but I doubt I'd call him "normal" either.

Why equate existance with "normality"? If nothing is "better" or "worse" than anything else then what is personal development?

Stephen
Power-Book Library: Free personal development, success, inspiration and motivational classics
TSTN | The Success Training Network

I would think this was referring to any "quirks" people have which are out of the norm but don't harm anyone- whether being attracted to the same sex, being left handed, etc. Not holding it against someone that they're left hand dominant is a far cry from happily pardoning a criminal murderer.

[The David]

I've heard of some cultures that say heterosexuality is 'base love' and homosexuality is 'spiritual love'. Does anyone know more about that? It kind of puts things in a different perspective.

[Sam988]

I just can't see how homosexuality helps the human race, evolutionarily speaking.

If someone has a theory to how homosexuality could possibly help a race to survive, please share because i want to get some other ideas here.

[cdn2wheeler]

Originally Posted by Sam988

I just can't see how homosexuality helps the human race, evolutionarily speaking.

If someone has a theory to how homosexuality could possibly help a race to survive, please share because i want to get some other ideas here.

Bonding between same sexes is an evolutionary advantage to help diminish tensions within the group, especially tensions arising from hierarchical dominance displays and actions.

[NotesMaeve]

I'd also argue that not being burdened with offspring allows for more culture-building.

[The David]

Did I miss something, or are we not at all in danger of extinction from lacko f procreation?

[NotesMaeve]

^ *Throws heathen birth control and pants out the window.* I guess I won't be needing these!

Pony up for the east coast, David, and remember, just close your eyes and think of England.

[Sam988]

Originally Posted by The David

Did I miss something, or are we not at all in danger of extinction from lacko f procreation?

Certainly not now. But remember that the current human civilization with all it's technologies is just a blink in the history of evolution.... it wasn't always like it is now.

[Sam988]

Originally Posted by cdn2wheeler

Bonding between same sexes is an evolutionary advantage to help diminish tensions within the group, especially tensions arising from hierarchical dominance displays and actions.

This is an interesting theory. But i think that procriating is much more useful than bonding between the same sexes. Also, people don't have to be homosexual to be friends with others the same sex as them.

Originally Posted by NotesMaeve

I'd also argue that not being burdened with offspring allows for more culture-building.

I think that there wasn't much culture at all for the predominant time in which human evolution took place.



-----



Another riddle is why do homosexuals still exist nowadays if they clearly have lesser chances of procreating throughout their lives. Evolution would eventually have gotten rid of them. Unless one doesn't need to have any homosexual relative to be have the genetic tendency to be a homosexual himself? Or maybe, there is no such thing as "genetic predisposition" to be a homosexual, but i doubt there isn't.

[cdn2wheeler]

Originally Posted by Sam988

This is an interesting theory. But i think that procriating is much more useful than bonding between the same sexes. Also, people don't have to be homosexual to be friends with others the same sex as them.

On the contrary, my friend.

By ensuring that the group works together, bonds are created and strengthened to form the social patterns that lead to it being safe to procreate. In other words, homosexual behaviour (especially in hierarchical societies, such as primates, dolphins, dogs and the like) may be part of a larger social construct that says, "We get along. We work/hunt/gather together. When there are hierarchical conflicts, we manage the fallout by re-establishing the bonds through homosexual behaviour."

This is, of course, just a theory; I haven't done any research on it whatsoever.

Originally Posted by Sam988

Another riddle is why do homosexuals still exist nowadays if they clearly have lesser chances of procreating throughout their lives. Evolution would eventually have gotten rid of them. Unless one doesn't need to have any homosexual relative to be have the genetic tendency to be a homosexual himself? Or maybe, there is no such thing as "genetic predisposition" to be a homosexual, but i doubt there isn't.

Jury's still out on the genetic predisposition argument, apparently.

[Sam988]

Originally Posted by cdn2wheeler

On the contrary, my friend.

By ensuring that the group works together, bonds are created and strengthened to form the social patterns that lead to it being safe to procreate. In other words, homosexual behaviour (especially in hierarchical societies, such as primates, dolphins, dogs and the like) may be part of a larger social construct that says, "We get along. We work/hunt/gather together. When there are hierarchical conflicts, we manage the fallout by re-establishing the bonds through homosexual behaviour."

This is, of course, just a theory; I haven't done any research on it whatsoever.

Considering that, as it has always been, men who have the highest social status get more female mates and mating opportunities, and also that these leaders/high social status guys mated with most of the females of the group while men who didn't have much status hardly mated with any female, we could say that these lower status guys had more tendency to become homosexual then, so they could, as you say, "manage the fallout by re-establishing the bonds through homosexual behaviour", and not rebelling against the leaders of the group.


Also, just thinking out loud some theories. It still doesn't explain female homosexuality

[MidasGirl]

Originally Posted by Sam988

I just can't see how homosexuality helps the human race, evolutionarily speaking.

If someone has a theory to how homosexuality could possibly help a race to survive, please share because i want to get some other ideas here.

If you are just looking for someone to throw a theory out there, I sure can. By making sure she creates people who won't reproduce, nature is helping advance survival of the human race by making sure we don't over-burden her resources. Natural birth control if you will.

Looked at from another angle, many gay couples adopt kids who might otherwise die and contribute to extinction of the human race.

[cdn2wheeler]

Originally Posted by Sam988

It still doesn't explain female homosexuality

Good points Sam.

I was wondering the same thing: What about female homosexuality? My theory - again, purely unscientific and unresearched - is along the same lines as the "group bonding" thing but with a slightly different twist.

My sense is that the mating process for female monkeys (just as an example) puts a great deal of stress on them, both psychologically and physically. So when they feel the desire to have a sexual encounter without all the huff and puff and bluster and aggression of a male (gawd, this REALLY sounds too human, doesn't it? ), they seek out a female. This may go some way in dispelling female-to-female aggressive tendencies in the group (especially when it comes to child-rearing) and further strengthen social bonds.

Interesting topic. I have some evolutionary biologist friends and I'm going to ask them about it.

[openeyes]

Originally Posted by cdn2wheeler

I have some evolutionary biologist friends and I'm going to ask them about it.

Ask them about bonobos:

Bonobo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Sexual intercourse plays a major role in Bonobo society, being used as a greeting, a means of conflict resolution and post-conflict reconciliation, and as favors traded by the females in exchange for food. Bonobos are the only non-human apes to have been observed engaging in all of the following sexual activities: face-to-face genital sex (most frequently female-female, then male-female and male-male), tongue kissing, and oral sex.[15] In scientific literature, the female-female sex is often referred to as GG rubbing or genital-genital rubbing, while male-male sex is sometimes referred to as penis fencing

"Bonobo females also engage in female-female genital sex (tribadism) to socially bond with each other, thus forming a female nucleus of Bonobo society. The bonding between females allows them to dominate Bonobo society - although male Bonobos are individually stronger, they cannot stand alone against a united group of females. Adolescent females often leave their native community to join another community. Sexual bonding with other females establishes the new females as members of the group."