Do you believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God born of a virgin? (Blog)

[Erin Pavlina]

Use this thread to discuss the following entry from Erin Pavlina's blog:

Do you believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God born of a virgin?

[Luca]

Erin, this is a beautiful post. Thank you. I think of it the same way.

I also wish that people wouldn't allow for this holiday to be so commercialized. Gift giving is important but currently Christmas preparations are all about shopping and pre-Christmas holidays. This is great but I wish all of us would focus on what it all really means. I am from an Eastern Orthodox country and a lot of people in my country keep lent (I hope I'm using the right word) and give up meat, dairy and alcohol for about 6 weeks. While this is hard to do if people tried to give up at least meat or alcohol it would be nice and also good for them. I decided yesterday that I would not eat meat and drink alcohol until Christmas. I know it's not a long time and I am still having dairy but at least it's something. I think if you do that you will enjoy the Christmas feast a lot more and save the lives of a few animals as well . Also, being loving and having loving, happy thoughts is the best way to celebrate Christmas. A gift is supposed to symbolize just that ... a nice thought for that person.

Just want to mention that I don't consider myself religious but spritual and don't agree with a lot of things in Christianity.

[Angela]

Erin, that was a thoughtful response to the question, and your guidance towards love and peace is a lovely one, and I accept.

What do you think about the portion of this story that refers specifically to that human incarnation being the result of a virgin birth? As that's central to the christian religion, and since you brought it up, what are your thoughts about that. Literal? Parable, not to be taken literally? Something else?

Thank you.

[Erin Pavlina]

No, I don't believe the virgin tale. I think that was written in later by unenlightened men.

[Akashic_Librarian]

I never thought about it really. I always thoguht there was a guy called Jesus. But I nver took anything to heart, his miracles sound like cleverly done magic tricks and most are just exaggerated lies...like the feeding of the five thousand, impossible even if your an expert at IM lol. You would have to be able to do IIM (Instant Intention manifestation )

I also never considered the part about what YOU do to yourself, YOU do to everyone else...It made me think. Thanks Erin !

[dECLAN]

Good post Erin!

Lately I have been getting into the more esoteric side of Jesus (and Christianity) and what he we can learn from him so this was a very timely post.

[Dave Kaminski]

Agreed completely Erin. I'm constantly making this point in mixed company re: religion, that it's the message that is important and not the vessel. In essence they all agree but in form none will. It's a funny argument.

Thanks so much for the brilliant blog entry.

[qiflow]

That was so beautiful Erin. Thank you.

[Nneka]

Well put. Jesus is an example, not the exception.

Good timing too as I was approached on Saturday morning by 2 people on my doorstep wanting to introduce me to their religion.

[songwriter]

No, I don't believe in Jesus being a kind of man-God or so. Just a man.
The "trouble" with Jesus is that he told people how to behave. Same that Gandhi, Lennon, Martin Luther King...

And you know what happened to all of the above in the end... :-(.
Their "intentions" may be good but telling people how to behave always produces negative feedback, you know.

AND... crowds of followers telling still people how to behave... even... punishing them if they don't behave this way... Lots of wars, repression... you know.

Same with... Russian Communist Revolution, for instance...

I don't believe in telling people how to behave. I think that it would have been better if Jesus, Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Lenin, Lennon, etc... would have shut up... The world would have missed information but we would have missed much hate and violence too.

"People, better let them do just what they will..."...

[Holistic Star]

No I don't believe Mary was a virgin when she had Jesus.

I believe that the word we interpreted as virgin, simply means 'young woman'.

Also, none of the virgin birth stuff was in Mark, which is considered by many to be the first gospel to be written about 30 years after Jesus' death.
Matthew was a religious scholar, and would have been familiar with the predictions of the old testiment to incorporate them into his message.

Does this invalidate the gospels - no I don't think so. In older times the difference and purpose between mythos (myth) and logos (logic) was understood in religious documents. Mythos are architypal stories that contain truths, but may not be factually accurate in all aspects. In the same way I don't think we have to interpret the creation stories as literally accurate (logos), they work better if we understand them as a mythos expression of god's power and greatness.

Although I am not a christian, Jesus the healer is a wonderful role model for me of healing others physically, energetically, emotionally and spiritually. His vibration was so great he could heal someone by them touching the hem of his garment. His message that we would go and do greater things than him is inspiring and the mark of a good teacher.

[floramorada]

A beautiful post, Erin. Thank you.

[Zero]

Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina

Do you believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God born of a virgin?

Even though this is a loaded question, it is still a yes or no question. We got the safe cable news answer. Are you running for president? Talk for 90 seconds about American values until the reporter gets bored and moves on to the next question that will be avoided.

If you say "yes", you alienate the non-Christian readers.

If you say "no", you offend the Christian readers because you are attacking the core of their beliefs. If there is no Jesus, there is no Christianity.

By leaving the door open, you get responses like "beautiful" and "thoughtful" because people are just turning the answer into what they want it to be. But, I guess that makes some people feel good. I just find this interesting, because this pattern is repeated quite a bit in the media, popular blogs, books, etc.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina

No, I don't believe the virgin tale. I think that was written in later by unenlightened men.

Zero: looks like you might have missed Erin's rather unequivocal response. Namby-pamby, she's not! As for the whole question, sometimes there's a whole lot more to an answer than zero/one. In fact, it's the open-door quality of Erin's nature that reflects her beauty and thoughtfulness!

[stephencp]

"because you are attacking the core of their beliefs."

Why is it the core?

Stephen
Power-Book Library: Free personal development, success, inspiration and motivational classics

[David Hausladen]

Supposing Jesus could be born of a virgin, why would he choose to? If we consider him as an enlightened teacher showing us how to also become enlightened, what would he teach us by being born without a father? That being born with a father makes us less enlightened or makes it harder to become enlightened?

It's easy to believe he was born of a virgin if you also believe that he's both man and God and we're just ordinary humans. But if you believe we're all both human and God, with the potential to become just as enlightened as he was, then it doesn't make sense to also believe he was a virgin.

[songwriter]

Originally Posted by Zero

Even though this is a loaded question, it is still a yes or no question. We got the safe cable news answer. Are you running for president? Talk for 90 seconds about American values until the reporter gets bored and moves on to the next question that will be avoided.

If you say "yes", you alienate the non-Christian readers.

If you say "no", you offend the Christian readers because you are attacking the core of their beliefs. If there is no Jesus, there is no Christianity.

By leaving the door open, you get responses like "beautiful" and "thoughtful" because people are just turning the answer into what they want it to be. But, I guess that makes some people feel good. I just find this interesting, because this pattern is repeated quite a bit in the media, popular blogs, books, etc.

Yes. But if you say what you think you're using the greatest american belief. Freedom. You're free to think the way you want to think. That's democracy. You can't do that in a dictatorship. Everyone must think the same way and can't bring different points of views.

I don't think you "attack" anything when you give your opinion, it's just an opinion, you can think about it or forget it. Just like if I said the Earth is flat...

Well... Some said it was round and orbiting round the Sun and the Catholic Church didn't like it much... :-/. They told (and still do) people what to believe... and maybe think the others are telling them so. No, we're just talking, not preaching.

Do what you will, think what you want to think.... or not..

[emf]

Virgin birth expected for Komodo dragon in UK zoo - Yahoo! News
Excerpts:
LONDON (Reuters) - Flora, a pregnant Komodo dragon living in a British zoo, is expecting eight babies in what scientists said on Wednesday could be a Christmas virgin birth.

"Nobody in their wildest dreams expected this. But you have a female dragon on her own. She produces a clutch of eggs and those eggs turn out to be fertile. It is nature finding a way," Kevin Buley of Chester Zoo in England said in an interview.

"The genetics of self-fertilization in lizards means that all her hatchlings would have to be male. These would grow up to mate with their own mother and therefore, within one generation, there would potentially be a population able to reproduce normally on the new island," Buley added.

Jesus was male.

Hey, if lizards can do it....

[elainevdw]

Originally Posted by stephencp

"because you are attacking the core of their beliefs."

Why is it the core?

Stephen
Power-Book Library: Free personal development, success, inspiration and motivational classics

I would suggest that this is the core of some Christian sects, rather than all of them. It represents that Jesus wasn't a human who had divinity bestowed on him; he was a diety that chose to take on humanity to redeem the world. Not a man who gained enlightenment, but a divine being who gave up his unlimited power to save his people.

[Sean.M.Connelly]

Originally Posted by songwriter

...The "trouble" with Jesus is that he told people how to behave. Same that Gandhi, Lennon, Martin Luther King...

And you know what happened to all of the above in the end... :-(.
Their "intentions" may be good but telling people how to behave always produces negative feedback, you know.

...

I don't believe in telling people how to behave. I think that it would have been better if Jesus, Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Lenin, Lennon, etc... would have shut up... The world would have missed information but we would have missed much hate and violence too.

You don't believe in telling others how to behave... yet you are telling us how Jesus should have behaved ;-).

That's like telling someone, "Stop listening to everything I say, and think for yourself!" - well... should they think for themselves? If they think for themselves only because you told them to, are they really thinking for themselves?

Some things can be taught. Some things can't. ;-)

~Sean

[KevinG]

I just want to know how Erin came to the conclusion that we are all God?

[The David]

I don't think you'll like the answer.

[KevinG]

Originally Posted by The David

I don't think you'll like the answer.

I don't think I'll care either way, I'd just like to know.

[Josip]

Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina

No, I don't believe the virgin tale. I think that was written in later by unenlightened men.

So, you read the Bible, and believe what you like, don't believe what you don't like.

Why you believe anything? The same writer wrote complete story, from beginning to the end. If he is a liar in first part, then why you believe he told us the truth in next chapters? It not sounds logical for me.

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by Josip

So, you read the Bible, and believe what you like, don't believe what you don't like.

Why you believe anything? The same writer wrote complete story, from beginning to the end. If he is a liar in first part, then why you believe he told us the truth in next chapters? It not sounds logical for me.

If I tell you, "Atlas the Titan upholds the sky upon his shoulders, and sentences are composed from words," why should you believe one and not the other? You're making a hasty generalization: if one part is false, then all parts must be false. That is a logical fallacy.

[Josip]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

If I tell you, "Atlas the Titan upholds the sky upon his shoulders, and sentences are composed from words," why should you believe one and not the other? You're making a hasty generalization: if one part is false, then all parts must be false. That is a logical fallacy.

I not said everything is false (or even true). I just asked Erin to explain what is her criterion to decide what is true and what is false. How she choose what is true?

Your example is not adequate, because I have a lot of other resources where I can learn about words and sentences and after that decide what is true using all that previous knoledge. But, the source for Jesus Christ is the Bible only. There is no strict evidence for what Jesus said or not said. You can believe or not, but you cannot actually know.

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by Josip

But, the source for Jesus Christ is the Bible only. There is no strict evidence for what Jesus said or not said. You can believe or not, but you cannot actually know.

This is not actually true. Look up Flavius Josephus. Further, look up the Gospel of Thomas. Oh... feh. Here, just see Wikipedia:
Jesus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Josip]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

This is not actually true. Look up Flavius Josephus. Further, look up the Gospel of Thomas. Oh... feh. Here, just see Wikipedia:
Jesus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ok, without too much philosophy, how Flavius Josephus is able to know is Jesus mother was virgin or not?

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by Josip

Ok, without too much philosophy, how Flavius Josephus is able to know is Jesus mother was virgin or not?

Flavius Josephus is the historical evidence for the existence of Jesus, as, to my knowledge, we have none other excepting religious documents. As to whether Jesus' mother was a virgin before the conception of Jesus, the only person who'd have a clue is herself: it isn't even something a husband can reliably determine.

My original point was that you can disbelieve that it was a virginal birth without disbelieving anything else in the Gospels, just as you can disbelieve that every firstborn child in Egypt died on one night except those of the Hebrews, and believe that they actually left Egypt. You can disbelieve that the Red Sea was parted, and you can believe the Israelites survived Pharaoh's army.

[Josip]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

Flavius Josephus is the historical evidence for the existence of Jesus, as, to my knowledge, we have none other excepting religious documents. As to whether Jesus' mother was a virgin before the conception of Jesus, the only person who'd have a clue is herself: it isn't even something a husband can reliably determine.

My original point was that you can disbelieve that it was a virginal birth without disbelieving anything else in the Gospels, just as you can disbelieve that every firstborn child in Egypt died on one night except those of the Hebrews, and believe that they actually left Egypt. You can disbelieve that the Red Sea was parted, and you can believe the Israelites survived Pharaoh's army.

Michael, of course you CAN , I agree you can, but I just asked why (can I ask why?) you (or Erin) decided to believe to specific things and don't believe do others?

E.g. Erin believes that "we are all sons and daughters of God". Ok, I accept it is her believe, then where is the logic to not believe in virgin Mary? After God created whole universe, Earth, humans, animals, stars and sky etc. etc., he cannot make virgin to born a child? That is a lot of easier task when comparing to what he already did.