Do you believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God born of a virgin? (Blog)

[Stephen]

I personally think that the whole religious thing in a bit scary in America.

I mean you have a very large millions of people who actually believe in the whole 3 persons in one god stuff: the virgin birth; the ascension into 'heaven' etc etc

Based on what? Some very dodgy book that proclaims that their way is the only way to salvation!

Just a pity for all those poor folk out there who were born into another religion, eh? Eternal damnation.

Groan.

As I said, religion is an accident of geography.

[marktb]

that is perhaps one of the best explanations I have heard about Christ.

Mark

[The David]

Originally Posted by Stephen

I personally think that the whole religious thing in a bit scary in America.

I mean you have a very large millions of people who actually believe in the whole 3 persons in one god stuff: the virgin birth; the ascension into 'heaven' etc etc

Based on what? Some very dodgy book that proclaims that their way is the only way to salvation!

Just a pity for all those poor folk out there who were born into another religion, eh? Eternal damnation.

Groan.

As I said, religion is an accident of geography.

I agree wholeheartedly.

[Rocket Surgery]

Originally Posted by songwriter

Yes. But if you say what you think you're using the greatest american belief. Freedom. You're free to think the way you want to think. That's democracy. You can't do that in a dictatorship. Everyone must think the same way and can't bring different points of views.

Acknowledging that you are not a native English speaker....

We should not make the mistake of confusing the terms FREEDOM and DEMOCRACY. They are by no means interchangeable.

Iran is a democracy, but there is certainly little freedom going on there.

Pakistan is a dictatorship, but Musharaff makes no great attempts to curtail the POVs of the radical Muslims who live there.

Iraq used to be a dictatorship that barely held together three very differing and distinct points of view. Now that we've force-fed them democracy, the majority (Shiites) are trying very hard to use it to vote a THEOCRACY into power.

FREEDOM is a relative term depending on the will of the people who enjoy it. The "free" people of Iraq are not, in fact, free within their minds of the oppressing religion of Islam, and therefore "freedom" to them is the freedom to choose "their way or the highway," so to speak.

Few places in the world have so little freedom that even the minds of the people are imprisoned. North Korea is one of them, as their people are brainwashed from birth to believe their "Dear Leader" is a godlike father figure, and they spend their entire lives dedicated to worshipping and praising his name and likeness. (sounds like "heaven" doesn't it?)

Extreme Islam is trying to create nations like this, but there is some resistance because of the many differing factions and no central authority figure within that faith other than the Qur'an, which, of course, has many interpretations. So, there is at least SOME freedom of thought going on in that part of the world.

As Shaw once said... "Democracy substitutes election by the incompetent many for appointment by the corrupt few."

~ RS

[Hsiang-Lin]

For those who are quick to dismiss Christianity and religion in general b/c they say you have to follow certain rules or teachings:

I agree with you. Blind faith and taking religious teachings too literally can lead to fascism and ignorance.

I wouldn't consider myself a religious person, but rather someone who is open to possibilities. One thing that's always gotten to me is how some Christians believe that if you don't believe in Jesus you will not have eternal life after you die, or basically you are DOOMED.

This is the kind of thinking that got to me before when I was pretty much an atheist, but now that I've had the opportunity to loosen up my beliefs and explore religion, I find that not only an illogical belief, but a disempowering one.

From a logical perspective, it makes no sense that if you don't believe in Jesus that after you die you will go to hell. That seems like a human contrivance that uses fear to get people to come to religion.

Jesus' message was all about love. Heck, he even PRAYED for his torturers and the people who persecuted him! Why would he do a 180 once he ascended to Heaven and condemn anybody on Earth who doesn't believe in him? That would only be defeating the very message he was teaching on Earth: to love your enemies as well!

Right now, I believe similarly as Erin does and even further in that Jesus does not care if we believe him or not. There is the belief that Jesus appears to us in many shapes and forms. Thus, what may be empowering to atheists or agnostics may in fact be Jesus speaking to you in a way that he can reach you.

I find that a very empowering belief and allows me to open my heart and mind to new opportunities and more ways to feel positive and love in my life.

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by Hsiang-Lin

Jesus' message was all about love.

I really hate generalizations like this. If you slash off the entire Bible and only read the four canonical Gospels, the picture of Jesus is still not one of pure love, but of Godliness, inclusive of the rage of the Old Testament Lord Your God. There's a distinction here.

Jesus presents a different image of God, but it's one of God nonetheless. It isn't simply love.

[Hsiang-Lin]

I feel that's just a matter of interpretation rather than fact.

I don't buy everything the Bible says. Especially parts where there is an imposition of punishment for certain sins or where if you don't do that, you'll face these consequences. I believe Jesus' message was certainly all about love and even to those who oppose him.

That is the most important message to me. I don't really buy into the if you worship this God or that, you will go to Hell. I agree with Erin in that Jesus only cares about that we love one another and not whether we follow the Bible or even read it.

There have always been non-Christians who are great people as well, so that has always made me think of what is the real message behind people who inspire or have great respect of people.

And why do you hate such generalization? Is it really that bad to embrace love? Even if Jesus didn't actually preach that, is there something wrong with loving too much? It's the message that first got me interested in exploring other religions and from there I feel I can distinguish between the bad apples and spiritual teachings that I feel are true and empowering.

[Michael Chui]

Because it would be like me saying that Hitler's vision was for an aesthetically pleasing world. It was. But it's an incomplete and skewed picture of Hitler's vision. Why bother calling it Jesus' message when you're just taking bits and pieces?

I hate such generalizations because they're wrong. If you want to talk about who Jesus was, whether the historical, canonical, or spiritual person, then talk about who Jesus was. If you want to talk about love being the practice we should all embrace, then talk about love and practices. But one does not need the other. Perspectives are valid whether some lofty, bygone guru mentioned them or not.

[Hsiang-Lin]

OK, I'm not going to argue with you whether historically or whatever category Jesus fits into. Simply, what do you believe is the meaning of life or do you believe there is a God or higher power out there?

You sound like you feel Jesus was no better than Hitler. Is there a reason why? Do you have some kind of moral compass you follow or basically what makes you tick?

I don't know enough about you to give a better argument. I'm sure you'd whomp down whatever I say now until we understand each other better. Also, I'm not trying to avoid your arguments. I simply feel that if we got down to the root of the problem instead of arguing whether Jesus was a good guy or not is more useful to our efforts.

Thanks.

[Michael Chui]

There was a statement made: "Jesus' message was all about love."

This statement is false. But, as I read what you say, it seems your interpretation is that the truth or falsehood of a statement does not matter.

[The David]

Well, that was a bit harsh. :-/

It's a valid point, though. Hsiang-Lin, I don't see why you believe Jesus was all about love. Of course, he talked about it, and even said that it was the greatest commandment. However, he damned his enemies in the next breath, and I'm not talking about constructive criticism. Anyone can use the word love, but to be 'all about love' requires more unity of thought and intent than Jesus displayed. And if you take the entire Bible into account (which I guess you don't), you have to include the horrors of the Apocalyptic Jesus.

Sorry, but I just think Jesus is a little overrated.

[Michael Chui]

Harsh, yeah, probably. But I probably shouldn't frequent the forums as often as I do while tired. Like... now.

And I want to pre-emptively respond to you, David, because that last sentence putting Jesus together with the entire Bible is also incorrect.

I realize, now, that I'm nitpicking, so I'll just stop. I'll do my best to explain any of the statements I've made, but I should take a break from criticizing others'. Even if they annoy me.

[marky]

im catholic and still practise my faith, but as ive been reading and learning more about general spirituality, and im coming to believe JC was not all that different from us...but he "figured it out".

he figured out how to connect with the universe (the father) and how to heal and manifest many things. i truly believe we all have this same potential, as he is even was known to say in the bible something like "...you shall do even greater works than i..." if JC were "god"...how could we do even greater works than god? its impossible, at best we could do the same. i think JC was telling us there that we have the same potential to be just like him, and even greater if we worked at it.

as far as the whole virgin thing...well if u look at history, JC would have not been the first divine being born of a virgin. lets not forget the early christians, especially catholics, did many things to convert people to chrisitianity. catholics assumed many pagan rituals (such as high mass, holy days, halos around heads of statues, etc)...to attact those followers. and lets also not forget about early christians eliminated many books (and gospels) from consideration in the bible because it didnt fit the mold THEY THOUGHT was appropriate.

anyways...im sure i got a few folks mentally jabbing pitch-forks at me, so i will stop. JC is very important in my life, im just trying to figure out what he was REALLY teaching, not what we've been told he was teaching.

[Hsiang-Lin]

I believe Jesus was all about love because that is what I feel a fully enlightened being would be about.

This is the real Jesus to me. Not the historical, what the churches say, or what other people think. Now whether I'm wrong or not is still open to possibilities. But it is hard for me to model myself after someone who condemns you to hell simply because you do not buy into all his/her teachings.

Also, I feel this is becoming like an all or nothing case. It's like if you have any sort of religious feelings or beliefs in your head, you are instantly branded as blinded by faith or ignorant. Whatever happened to considering possibilities?

Even if Jesus did some questionable acts, was the essence of his message any different? The real Jesus to me is the message behind the man, not the other way around. I believe he transcended his own body to do what he did.

Mike, no need to beat up yourself over what I said. Just let me be the ignorant fool in your consciousness and accept it as that. I can accept that. I know clearly my knowledge of Jesus and Christianity is limited. What you need to know is I am here NOT to spread my beliefs, but to truly learn. If you have information or facts that corroborate your viewpoint, then please state them. If not, then what's the point of feeling frustrated with someone who you haven't even met in real life?

All I'm considering in my life is new religious and spiritual possibilities and JC seems like a good person that might help to enhance my life. Is that such a deplorable act?

[Michael Chui]

Hsiang-Lin, I'll make one more pass and ask you to answer this question: why not Buddha? Why not Gandhi? Why not, heck, Martin Luther King, Jr.? I find each of these persons to be better models than Jesus.

[Hsiang-Lin]

Guess what? I do consider them as my other role models. Buddha is probably another big role model of mine.

I never said in any of my posts Jesus was my one and only role model. I just said I was interested in Christianity and was willing to explore possibilities with it. What I wrote was just what I thought made sense to me thus far in my exploration.

Now COULD Jesus be the one truth? Quite possibly. But there is clearly a pattern among all these enlightened beings and I wish to get to the core of that truth. I don't want to simply jump on the Jesus bandwagon and proclaim myself a Christian when clearly figures such as Buddha have accomplished similar great things as well.

But dismissing Jesus so easily seems like a cop out to me. Why aren't people so easily drawn to speak out against Buddha? I think the reason most people have such despise towards Christians and Jesus is that it is the dominant religion in the world. Why not drop the ego and explore the possibilities instead of getting angry anytime someone else mentions something that threatens your own model of reality?

[jamasiel]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

Hsiang-Lin, I'll make one more pass and ask you to answer this question: why not Buddha? Why not Gandhi? Why not, heck, Martin Luther King, Jr.? I find each of these persons to be better models than Jesus.

I think the problem here is that "better" is inherently subjective here. That said, I do agree with what you're saying in my subjective view for role models, but I can see and agree with what Hsiang-Lin is saying....for him/herself.

You can find problems with all of them: Gandhi reinforced the class discrimination in his country, MLK has allegations of infidelity, Buddha should have taken some Rolaids. Modeling isn't about taking every aspect of someone's life and persona, but what works for you, really.

[The David]

Actually, I think the reason people have such despise towards Jesus is because more people have died in his name than in any other name. Whether it's his fault or not, it's reason to be suspicious.

[Michael Chui]

Fair enough. Your point is well-taken.

[aussieNickuss]

I'll post what I believe...

1. That Jesus was just a normal man who simply inspired people, not an enlightened soul or the son of god. I believe that if the whole ressurection, son of a virgin etc etc were true, then Jesus would not have been the only person in history to be such a person...if that makes sense.

2. I believe that there is a greater spirit or power, but not in the form of a man, or any forms associated with any particular religion etc.

3. I believe that the Bible is just an overrated story book. I feel that too many people involve their life around it. It causes wars, creates hate and divides people. It should in no way play a part in political decisions or laws.

4. I am against evangelism, people should not be pushed, prodded and forced to believe in a religion. As an example, I have seen tv segments of groups of people demonstrating their hate towards gays. Holding up signs "God Hates Fags"....no he/she/it doesn't! It's rediculous.

I respect peoples beliefs, I'm just sharing mine. I just feel that religion as a whole plays too much of a part in the world.

[maverickstruth]

Originally Posted by Angela

Maverickstruth, is the year '40' forty years after Jesus was born, or died, or something else? Am I understanding you correctly that there's nothing written down that refers to Jesus before that '40' (at the earliest)? Why do you think that would be?

Hm... I don't check the forums for a couple days, and miss a question for me! Sorry, Angela, for the delay...

Forty years is approximately approximately the time between when Jesus died and when the Gospel of Mark was written. The Gospel of Mark is the earliest Gospel that was written that is in the Bible. It is not, however, the oldest Christian writing -- even of