Are You Afraid to Be Rich? (Blog)

[Ecce Homo]

Originally Posted by mncz

Which plane do you live on now, dream23? Spiritual or material? So if you are on material plane, you are here to master the material plane to the extent that you possibly can. You are already a spiritual person, and the more aware of yourself you become, the more you know that no amount of money or lack of it can take your spirituality away from you - unless you consciously allow it.

Money is a tool. Just like a computer or an axe. It should be viewed as such. It is neither good nor bad. For some people, it gives a lot of leverage to do good. For others it becomes an obstacle, because they fail to understand its lessons. Rich people are neither good nor bad. Each of them is unique, and they all are perfect as they are and should be viewed as such. You are unique too. Your lessons about money are yours, not someone elses. Learn them and don't judge other people for theirs.

Hear, hear!

[Dannyboy1]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

My consciousness is my own highest authority. I honor what I believe is best regardless of what other teachers say. I do not agree with Jesus and Buddha on all subjects; I think they offered some great ideas but in some ways their thinking was off. Either that or their original message has been corrupted into something that isn't as empowering and practical as it could be.

I mean, everything you've heard about their teachings is from other's perceptions of them. Also, language was much different back then and there are unlimited interpretations of what they really meant. I'm certainly not an authority but isn't disagreement a form of resistance? If you disagree, maybe you're misinterpreting. Maybe you should search for what you believe in what they said. Then, maybe you'll find it. If Jesus or Buddha were here today and you actually talked with them, you might find they agree with you on the things you thought they didn't. I just find it interesting that even when people see all the lies or misinterpretations in newspapers, they still think all that is written about Jesus and Buddha is all true and that they can judge their teachings without ever having met them. Haven't certain things you've said been misinterpreted and taken out of context? The way I look at it, I can't really express a valid opinion about someone unless I've actually met them.

[dream23]

Originally Posted by mncz

Which plane do you live on now, dream23? Spiritual or material? So if you are on material plane, you are here to master the material plane to the extent that you possibly can. You are already a spiritual person, and the more aware of yourself you become, the more you know that no amount of money or lack of it can take your spirituality away from you - unless you consciously allow it.

Yes i live on the material plane, but i consciously day in day out try not to give into its temptations. I perceive the material world as a test from God.

You are under estimating the power money has. It is not a tool like an axe. More people have died for money than they have over an axe.

And i disagree i believe your spirituality starts to diminish the more you focus on the material world rather than the spiritual. Your talking as if you can acquire wealth like a game and then not be attached to it. Subconsciously your ego will be attached to it.

I know ppl dont think Jesus and Buddha offered much ''social value'', but heres one teaching they both agreed on;

''be in the world but not of it''.

( apologies if i have offended the Pavlina followers, but this is something that i had to express. I am merely expressing and opinion.)

[jawillie]

Originally Posted by dream23

Yes i live on the material plane, but i consciously day in day out try not to give into its temptations. I perceive the material world as a test from God.

You are under estimating the power money has. It is not a tool like an axe. More people have died for money than they have over an axe.

And i disagree i believe your spirituality starts to diminish the more you focus on the material world rather than the spiritual. Your talking as if you can acquire wealth like a game and then not be attached to it. Subconsciously your ego will be attached to it.

I know ppl dont think Jesus and Buddha offered much ''social value'', but heres one teaching they both agreed on;

''be in the world but not of it''.

( apologies if i have offended the Pavlina followers, but this is something that i had to express. I am merely expressing and opinion.)

You can be in the world, and enjoy the world but still not be "of it."

You do not know what is in everyone's heart.

As I play this game I am Becoming more and more "spiritual" (or living close to God-source as I personally like to explain it). Yes, I desire to acquire more wealth: financially is not the only way to be wealthy, but it is included in my list of ways to live wealthy. You are welcome to think I am evil, but my heart is filled with more love now than it EVER has been. I am appreciating life and offering my love and services more freely because I am no longer living with the "scarcity mentality." Or the idea that somehow being poor is more "noble" than having money.

I do want a nice house on the lake. I can ENJOY and CHERISH and HONOR that house, but if I lose it in a fire I will not think I lost "all." My source is not anything on this Earthly plane, but that does not mean we cannot enjoy things here. You can enjoy things and be happy and not have it be at the expense of others. It is possible, I do it everyday!!!

I am not saying you are wrong in your beliefs as you use them in your life. Obviously you live the life you choose.

Do you personally KNOW anyone who is wealthy? I have known many wealthy families (I was a nanny for an offspring of a very wealthy New York family). They were not evil. I quite enjoyed that family, actually, and they were very generous. They opened my mind to the possibilties of living with wealth. From that point on I have steadily been dropping my old "money is evil" thinking.

[mncz]

Originally Posted by dream23

You are under estimating the power money has. It is not a tool like an axe. More people have died for money than they have over an axe.

Yes, because they failed to understand exactly that: that money is a tool. They believe that money would somehow make them more complete, better persons, in other words, that money would make them more than what they already are. That made them attached to it to the point where they believed that without money they suddenly become worthless. That is unconscious thinking, and yes, a lot of people have unconscious attitude towards money (including me). But that does not mean that money itself is to blame for atrocities done in its name. Is Jesus to blame for the people killed in the wars in his name? It was the mindset of the people who fought in those wars that allowed the killing, not Jesus teachings in themselves. Similarly, it is the mindset of people who do atrocities in the name of profits that does the harm, not the money itself.

The more conscious you become, the more making money can become a process like you described: a game, where you do not become attached to the outcome that much. Because consciousness excludes the chance for your ego to manipulate you into believing that money somehow defines you as a person.

This article I read just now: Making Money Consciously (I had missed it before, thanks Steve) really explains two different mindsets about money making. If you read it, you will find that the contributor mindset does not diminish your spirituality at all, to the contrary, it can empower you to do good practically without limits.

And you are in this world. You are not of it already, and you realise it, and I find it wonderful. But you are IN it and that means understanding, accepting and dealing with it with regard of how it works. Resisting the obvious fact that in this world money is a great and quite necessary tool for leveraging spirituality to a higher level is just resistance to how things are, and as such is futile.

PS. Also, reading your other posts, I can't help but wonder why do you think that the fact that other people have been corrupted or made mistakes when it came to money, has anything to do with you or how you would behave if you had a lot of money? You are you. Other people are other people. Their experiences can provide some insights, but they are completely unrelated to anyone else but them. Your reasoning somehow assumes that all people behave similarly in similar situations, when in practice everyone behaves differently, and the more conscious a person is, the more innovative, creative and thus unpredictable approach he/she can take towards any given situation.

[mncz]

Another example of how having a lot of money improves the leverage of doing good:
I have this idea of doing an organic food shop in this country, because you, advanced nations, have Whole Foods and we do not, and when I found myself at the point where I wanted to make conscious choices regarding food, I understood that I do not have that many options... I did calculations and found that a full blown Whole Foods type shop in the city where I live would require about 0.5 million euros to start successfully and about 2 million euro annual turnover to sustain itself. If it had 2.5 million euro turnover, I would be able to put some of the finances in supporting our local scientists and employing them to deploy more effective logistics solutions that would lead to less wasted natural resources.

This shop would provide tens of thousands of people the power to choose consciously grown food, it would also support our local farmers and give out a message that would make many more people to think about what they are eating and what impact their food choices leave on the world. Further on, it would provide employment and taxes money for social services and other services that state provides from taxes.

So in this regard, me having these 0.5 million euros is a good or bad thing?
Of course, I could also use this money to buy a supercar. Or a diamond necklace. Shiny!
See, and that is my own personal choice, which I make in alignment with my level of counsciousness. It has nothing to do with money per se.
Food for thought

[Erin Pavlina]

MNCZ I think you understand perfectly and I think you're explaining it very well for others. Kudos and thanks for contributing to this thread.

[mncz]

Aww, thanks Now I am blushing

[Mizan]

Originally Posted by mncz

You are unique too. Your lessons about money are yours, not someone elses. Learn them and don't judge other people for theirs[/B].

This sounds just correct.
We are all about to learn our own lessons. And we don't have to judge other people for theirs.

But, when are we judging, and when are we just expressing our own experiences about the lessons we learned?
Where do you draw the line?
I had not the intention to judge someone. But anything I write can be interpret that way.
When we write down experiences of our own lessons like 70% of the message doesn't arrive to the readers, as only 30% of communication is verbal, the rest is non verbal and it vanishes ones you start to write and another one reads the message. I admit that I misinterpret as well....
So maybe the internet is just not the best medium to communicate experiences of own lessons learned. You may reach a lot of people, but the message arrives incomplete. Even talking live to people misunderstandings occur.
So I wonder if blogging on the net really is that much of a help to people.
Even what I mean with what I write now got lost for 70%.

The question of why people feel the urge to express their own lessons in life to others is important.
As you say everyone is unique and the lessons we have to learn as well. how high is the value than really of reading or hearing a lesson of someone else, who is totally different and unique, so his or her lessons are certainly not of any use for someone else....who has simply other lessons to learn.

So that was it. A short visit to the world of Pavlina.

[supertom]

"Upon his death a man was given a tour of both heaven and hell, so he could select his final destination. First he was taken to hell. He saw a lot of people sitting at a long banquet table loaded with all kinds of delicious food. However, he noticed that all the people seated were unhappy, and looked frustrated. They each had a fork strapped to the left arm and a knife strapped to the right arm. Each had a four-foot handle which made it impossible for them to eat. With all kinds of good in front of them they were not able to taste any of it. After this scene in hell he was taken on a tour of heaven. He noticed that the people in heaven were also seated at a long banquet table loaded with all kinds of delicious good. There was a difference here because he noticed that the people here were cheerful and enjoying themselves. They also had forks and knives with a four-foot handle. They were busy eating because they were feeding each other. Each person in heaven was feeding the one across the table from him and was being fed in return. The people in hell were unable to eat because they were trying to feed only themselves."

[mikeschu]

Originally Posted by wulph

Playing in the stock market is often akin to gambling, and thus falls under Option 2, or the Moocher mindset. Most day traders and short sellers probably fit into this category.

I think it's possible to have a non-moocher mindset if you're a day trader. If your life goal was to provide a market for buying and selling stocks to others by buying and selling shares multiple times, then I could see it working out. For instance, if you bought shares from someone who wanted to get rid of them and then found someone else who wanted them at a higher price, you've created value for two people. It doesn't make as much money as serving the masses, and one can't go into the market thinking about "exploiting arbitrage situations" or eradicating market inefficiencies. That's more akin to darkworking.

I haven't been able to come up with a good example for short-selling, and there may not be one.

[dream23]

Originally Posted by jawillie

Do you personally KNOW anyone who is wealthy?

I was around money for my entire childhood. I lived with wealthy grandparents and had very wealthy uncles. i watched how money turned people from giving souls to people who have to move away from town, build big mansions surrounded by security gates to protect what they have.

What i am saying is being taken out of context. I am not saying having money is a bad thing. I am not saying that rich people are evil. I could name many rich people who i admire. But i can name a hell of a lot more who became greedy because of it.

The point why i posted was to add some balance, and make the point that you dont have to be rich to change things.

Maybe i can come across self righteous in my writings. ( in a soul profile i was told why, thanks Anna Conlon ;-)

I am a minimalist who is not afraid of being rich or money. I am only afraid of the strangehold money can have... the urge for more can become addictive. It sounds to me in this forum there are many altruistic people who want money to do good things, i wish you all lots of it. Money in the right hands can change the world.

[Erin Pavlina]

Originally Posted by dream23

Money in the right hands can change the world.

And that was the point of the article. I don't want to see kind, loving, compassionate people avoiding money because they fear it will turn them evil. Money in the right hands can definitely change the world. Here here.

[pianoperformer]

dream23, it sounds like you have a belief that the physical world is evil, that it is something to be avoided and overcome. I disagree. I think it's something to work with, learn from, and enjoy.

[moonrambler]

Originally Posted by dream23

I maybe in a lonely naive club but money to me is not the best way to contribute. Before mother teresa and Ghandi there was this guy called Buddha and also a man called Jesus Christ who had different ideas about money than steve Pavlina..... somehow i cant imagine Buddha meditating to manifest $10000.

What ever happened to love being the greatest power?? thats all i plan on manifesting.

''all you need is love''. Lennon

It is interesting that to enhance your point, you quote a multi-millionaire.

[moonrambler]

Originally Posted by Mizan

I am not afraid to be rich.
But I am not afraid to be poor neither.

And do we really have to be rich before we can help others?

How rich were/are these people?
Mother Teresa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I keep seeing Mother Teresa mentioned on these forums as an example of a person who had nothing and accomplished much. But it really is ignored that she was part of a huge multi-billion-dollar corporation, supported and funded by that corporation. Don't you think that's a big part of the reason she was able to accomplish so much? She didn't do this completely on her own.

[moonrambler]

Originally Posted by Mizan

Just take a look at the "open source" community. Their contribution to the world is larger than the crap that Bill gates is selling. Now Bill just like you truly believes that he is making the difference as he does some charity.

The crap that Bill Gates is selling is a huge part of the reason we are all able to have this discussion here on this forum.

[moonrambler]

Originally Posted by dream23

I never heard about a rich man reaching enlightenment.

One of my new favorite authors: Stuart Wilde

[supertom]

so someone like warren buffet is a lightworker, making money from the stock than giving most of it away to help people in africa

[daj]

Is contributing money to something without contributing yourself & your time really contributing? I don't think so...

Also read this, about how billions of aid money to africa doesn't help anything:
SPIEGEL Interview with African Economics Expert: "For God's Sake, Please Stop the Aid!" - International - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News
You can't help people who don't want to help themselves.

So all these annoying rich people who donate blindly aren't doing anything to help. That's the bottom line.

[moonrambler]

Originally Posted by daj

Is contributing money to something without contributing yourself & your time really contributing? I don't think so...

Of course it is. Let's say I win $250,000 in the lottery and I contribute $225,000 of this to a charity. You don't think that's a contribution?

But on the other hand, Bill Gates left Microsoft and now works full-time with his philanthropic organization. He certainly is contributing himself and his time.

Also read this, about how billions of aid money to africa doesn't help anything:
SPIEGEL Interview with African Economics Expert: "For God's Sake, Please Stop the Aid!" - International - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News
You can't help people who don't want to help themselves.

That's a really interesting interview. I'd read the disheartening reports back in the 1980s after the rock musicians managed to get all those donations for Africa and it later sounded like most of the money was squandered.

I also was fascinated by the comments about all the used clothing that other countries send over there and how it puts their tailors out of business. The excess of used clothing in this world is a complete fascination to me. Everybody's gotta have new clothes all the time even though they already have closets full of perfectly good clothing. There's so much used clothing all over the place it's astounding. What are we supposed to do with all this stuff?

So all these annoying rich people who donate blindly aren't doing anything to help. That's the bottom line.

I think it remains to be seen whether Gates/Buffet will be able to accomplish their goals for Africa -- eradicating AIDS and malaria. They have huge political problems to deal wth over there though -- like this quote from the interview you posted: "Millions of dollars earmarked for the fight against AIDS are still stashed away in Kenyan bank accounts and have not been spent. Our politicians were overwhelmed with money, and they try to siphon off as much as possible."

[supertom]

as long as social value doesnt lead to a "brave new world"

[Apollia]

Originally Posted by daj

Is contributing money to something without contributing yourself & your time really contributing? I don't think so...

I think it can be, but only if the person spends the money wisely.

Also read this, about how billions of aid money to africa doesn't help anything:
SPIEGEL Interview with African Economics Expert: "For God's Sake, Please Stop the Aid!" - International - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News

Thanks for that link.

So all these annoying rich people who donate blindly aren't doing anything to help. That's the bottom line.

Here's a link Brutha posted on another thread that I found interesting. Iqbal Quadir says mobiles fight poverty | Video on TED.com

Part of what it points out is that a good approach to eliminating poverty would be to empower the people themselves, and not keep enriching/empowering their corrupt rulers.

[daj]

I think the big issues with donating is, do the people really want your help?
I bring this up because a few years ago while walking down the street, I stumbled upon this homeless pregnant woman with a sign that read, "Need money to get a bus ticket home. Baby coming soon. Please help." I gave her 5 bucks, and she said thank you, and told me how I just gave her enough to buy the bus ticket. She seemed so happy, with a big smile on her face. I told her, "You're welcome. Enjoy the ride home." About 30 minutes later after walking back her way I noticed her walking out of a liquor store across the way with a brown paper bag of liver cancer.

Do you know how mad that made me feel? The fact this woman was pregnant, lied to me, and she spent my 5 bucks on alcohol to self-destruct even more. In that moment I realized most people aren't worth helping because they don't really have any desire to help themselves. I won't donate any money to a homeless person ever again.


Anyway... I feel like a lot of people with good intentions aren't spending money wisely when it comes to donating. Most donate "blindly". What I mean is most don't research the charity, organization, church, or people their donating too, and even then how do you really know how the money your donating is going to be spent by them? It's not like you can see what goes on behind closed doors, you only see what they want to sell you, and from what I've read over the years many seem to be corrupt.

I think donating to a local organization or charity in your city would be better if you can actually see progress being made. Maybe you could even volunteer your time at one to get the drift of how the organization helps people in your community. I personally think donating myself & time means a lot more then donating money, no matter what the amount is.

[sebastyne]

I'm skipping the very interesting conversation here to share you yet another funny way of thinking about money.

I haven't been afraid of being rich, ever. I don't think that rich people are bad or greedy or what ever, but I had great difficulty getting ANY money or holding on to a job even though I am a pretty clever person. I have been struggling with bills more and more so, and only lately I have realised why this has happened.

My mother is all about security and especially job security. She has always made sure to let me know that nothing matters more than bills paid on time. People have to have jobs to be worthy, you have to prove yourself as a valuable being by working for your living. To become a good worker, you had to be a good student. As it turned out, I never was good enough for her, at least she never expressed in a way that I could understand that she was happy with the way I was doing at school. So as nothing pleased her, I simply quit trying. Then I started rebelling against the whole idea of working to earn my livelihood - my very right to exist.

The burden of resisting a respectable way of life lifted off me when I moved to the opposite side of the world with my husband. As things around me changed, it was easier to let go of all those negative thoughts, and now I am happily working for myself as a wedding dress designer - not making any money yet, as it is very early days, but I am embracing the idea of making a GOOD living out of it, once I get going. It feels surprisingly good not to resist things.

[Tina Rowley]

While I'm still dismantling some emotional blocks to becoming rich, I love the idea of being in an even greater position to help than I am now. It's such a pleasure to imagine how I'd redistribute a good chunk of wealth. And the great thing with imagining how you'd help the world with kabillions of dollars is that you discover what and who are important to you, how you'd like to have an impact. I would like to impact my closet, sure, and some airlines and hotels, and a real estate market or two, but the real pleasure comes in imagining other people's joy at having their financial worries released.

One thing I always think about is kids, and wanting to give them the experience of love and listening and support and delight. I imagine some large-scale operation I could concoct, like a totally loving and magical camp of some sort. Then I remember that I get the chance to do this on a micro scale already with my two-year-old, and I'm re-energized to be the best parent I can be.

Speaking of micro, a fantastic way to help people - whether you have loads of money or not so much - is through microfinance. You may already be familiar with the concept, but if not, microfinance is giving small loans directly to poor people around the world who are trying to make sustainable businesses for themselves. In some parts of the world, 20 or 30 or 50 dollars could be all a person might need to get a simple business completely up and running - but that 20 dollars could be inconceivably out of reach for someone.

Here are a couple of excellent links. You can be a philanthropist immediately, before you're completely buried in your rightful avalanche of benjamins. :

The Grameen Foundation
Kiva

A friend of mine worked at the Grameen Foundation, whose founder just recently won a Nobel prize, so I feel good about what they're doing, although I haven't donated to them yet. I have lent money through Kiva, and that is a delightful process. You pick the person or people whose businesses you'd like to support, and then slowly your account is paid back, and you get to hear how progress is going. You can re-lend the money to a new business, or just receive the repayment yourself.

Now, I agree completely that donation of time and energy is wonderful and has particular meaning. But it's not mutually exclusive with helping folks out financially, and I think there are some great ways to do that.

Tina Rowley
The Gallivanting Monkey

[Lena Carpenter]

Hi Erin, thanks for the wonderful article. I already agree with all the points you made, but it's nice to have them explained in a simple, down-to-earth way.

My question is what if I don't believe I CAN become rich? I don't believe that money is bad or that rich people are evil, but what if I'm unsure of my own ability to make money and provide good value to society?

[Erin Pavlina]

Read Steve's articles on wealth and finances for help in changing your beliefs.

[Mew3692002]

I never knew there were so many people that viewed wealth negatively.

[Dandelion]

Why should I have so much when others have so little? How is that fair?


That is what I've been struggling with for eons..and your blog post just made it crystal clear to me that I've been thinking about rich people in totally the wrong way. I've actually felt GUILTY about trying to attract wealth.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for posting that very worthwhile blog entry.

You are an inspiration.