Are drugs a good way to achieve spiritual experiences? (Blog)

[Erin Pavlina]

Use this thread to discuss the following entry from Erin Pavlina's blog:

Are drugs a good way to achieve spiritual experiences?

[Trezker]

In Soviet Russia, the experience has you!

That post makes me think of the guy in Heroes who can't do his thing unless he's on drugs. But (SPOILER) later in the series he learns to control his ability so he no longer needs the drugs. At least, I think that happened...

Anyway. It's better to learn how to do things the right way than to run on rocket fuel and hope for the best. That goes for socialising and alcohol just as much as it does for drugs and spiritual experiences.

[BringTheDarkness]

Carlos Castaneda would probably disagree with this lol.

Shamans world-wide use psychedelic drugs as a learning tool.

Of course there are two caveats:

#1 They actually know what they are doing, unlike most people and
#2 They use the drugs in controlled fashion. i.e. Someone is always sober and guiding the user.

I don't use them myself because I don't have any knowledgeable shamans in close proximity...Plus, my meditations/experiences are strange enough without drugs.

BTD

[Mato Kinze]

Originally Posted by BringTheDarkness

Carlos Castaneda would probably disagree with this lol.

Shamans world-wide use psychedelic drugs as a learning tool.

Of course there are two caveats:

#1 They actually know what they are doing, unlike most people and
#2 They use the drugs in controlled fashion. i.e. Someone is always sober and guiding the user.

I don't use them myself because I don't have any knowledgeable shamans in close proximity...Plus, my meditations/experiences are strange enough without drugs.

BTD

My teacher studied with Castenada. I guess that makes me a "Grandstudent" of his and a Great Grandstudent of Don Juan Matus.

I think Castenada would disagree with you. First of all, Shamans don't use "drugs". They ask for and allow their spirits to be guided by the spirits of certain sacred herbs, plants and animals - Allies.

They do this in a very respectful and humble way. The process is extremely specific and individual to each Ally you are seeking aid from.

To the Shaman and Sorcerer, ALL things have Spirits. They all have energy and are a part of The Great Mystery. As Humans, we have the unique ability to learn and communicate with these spirits. They have a perspective that is very difficult (but not impossible) for some of us to gain on our own. But with their help, we can see things through their "eyes" and thus come to a greater understanding of the whole.

The difference between what a Shaman or Sorcerer does with Spirit Allies and what others do with drugs is the difference between slavery and alliance. It is the difference in intent.

Drug use lacks respect and understanding of the spirit of the ally you are taking into you. The very words "Drug USE" shows what I mean.

To be properly guided by these allies, you must have Knowledge.

Castenada was given instruction over many years by Don Juan. But Carlos Castenada was not Don Juan's only student. In "Don Juan, A Yaqui Way of Knowledge", Castenada references these other students and does so in other of his books. He even quotes Don Juan as telling him that one of his (Don Juan's) other students who was more advanced than Castenada had never taken Mescalito - because he didn't NEED to.

This goes to what Erin was saying. For strong practitioners, the assistance given by some allies is unnecessary and the Medicine STOLEN from drugs is seldom, if ever, more helpful than hurtful.

Personally, I've been blessed with a level of understanding and Sight that does not require the aid of these allies and so I have never called on them.


That being said, "back in the day" I HAVE done drugs. A Trip is a very different thing than a Spiritual Journey. There is no comparison.

[BringTheDarkness]

Originally Posted by Mato Kinze

My teacher studied with Castenada. I guess that makes me a "Grandstudent" of his and a Great Grandstudent of Don Juan Matus.

I think Castenada would disagree with you. First of all, Shamans don't use "drugs". They ask for and allow their spirits to be guided by the spirits of certain sacred herbs, plants and animals - Allies.

That's nice.

I'm well-aware of all of this. You are playing word semantic games with me. They are ingesting psychedelic substances; I don't care what you call them.

It is often done on that path; Castaneda isn't the only experience I've had with this, just one I figured most people would know.

Therefore, the original question asked about drugs is still relevant. *I* don't use them, but I don't begrudge others who want to do them.

Just pointing out that one has to be careful.

If you disagree, so be it.

BTD

[Mr.Mustache]

I don't think Erin does a good job characterizing psychedelic drugs. Having taken some myself and having read many trip reports of LSD and mushrooms I haven't heard of anyone laboring under the delusion that they were speaking to satan or flying with angels (although some have reported "entity" contact usually with the use of DMT).

The hallucinations these drugs bring about are mostly optical and take the form of morphing geometric shapes superimposed upon your vision (they are not little talking green men delusions in other words). I'm sure you can, if you don't know what you are doing, get so caught up in the visuals that you begin to panic in a scary environment with suggestive imagery (like a cemetery or something) I suppose you could believe you were talking with satan or something but this is rare. Plus you have to really not know what you're doing.

My point is, Erin seemed to be painting LSD as a delusional drug which it is not. On the influence of LSD you are literally traveling "into" the brain, you begin to understand the psychological structures waking consciousness is built upon. Psychedelics are supposed to be a trail blazer for meditation and Mindfulness, not just to have some crazy trip.

[Mato Kinze]

Originally Posted by BringTheDarkness

You are playing word semantic games with me.

Not at all. I am discussing the impact of intent and the difference that it brings to the experience of those who 'use' drugs versus those who open themselves spiritually to the guidance of spiritual allies.

There is a distinct difference between a Spiritual Journey and a drug-induced Trip.

I've had my share of both and the latter is a dim shadow of the former.

The use of chemicals distilled and engineered by humans for recreation is a dangerous and spiritless endeavor. The true Medicine received comes from the alliance of the Spirit inherent in the plants and the Spirit of the person ingesting them.

The difference between LSD and say, Mescalito, is not the chemicals themselves, but rather the INTENT with which they are created, changed, used and/or procured.

Some pusher in a basement lab cooking up Acid hardly has the same intent as a Holy Man lovingly gathering and preparing Peyote for his people. The Spirit present in the substance is radically different and will have radically different results.

In the same way, some city-bred white kid could come to the Res, walk around for a few hours, pick some Peyote buttons, chew on them and get just a bad a Trip as if it was the Black Dot Acid at Woodstock.

The intent of the "user" is just as big a part of the equation as the intent of the gatherer/preparer. You could go to your neighborhood dealer with the intent in the ingestion to be to have a "Spiritual Experience". Of course, at the same time, you could have the intent to win the Indy 500, but if you're in a Ford Taurus (even a SHO ), YOUR intent doesn't mean a damn thing. Ain't gonna happen.

At the same time, someone who uses sacred herbs without understanding or good intent is just as likely to have a problem as someone using Crack.

I do not judge those who use recreational drugs. I've done enough myself to see that as too hypocritical. But I do warn people who wish to experience truly Spiritual connections that Drugs are not the way to do so.

[BringTheDarkness]

Mato,
I mis-understood the tone of your post. I actually agree with what you said here.

For me, drugs are a big no-no because I dont have the proper guidance or intent.

BTD

[Mato Kinze]

Originally Posted by BringTheDarkness

Mato,
I mis-understood the tone of your post. I actually agree with what you said here.

For me, drugs are a big no-no because I dont have the proper guidance or intent.

BTD

Funny thing about writing....the only "tone" is the one you read it in.

S'all good.

[DayInTheLife]

Having had a fair number of experiences with hallucinogenic drugs I'll do my best to respond to Erin's blog.

I'll start by saying that the notion of inducing a spiritual experience with a drug is problematic to my mind. What 'spiritual' even means to a given individual could be anything. When it comes to a drug experience, expectations of any kind are best left out. You may have a profound experience, you may not; a drug guarantees nothing. My philosophy is just keep an open mind; observe; learn what you can from it; expect nothing in particular.

One guy told me he had a conversation with Satan while tripping. Another guy told me he was flying with angels. And I was also told about a guy who said he was teleported to another location and woke up naked in the forest.

I would suspect these accounts are constructed mostly from a combination of exaggeration and wishful thinking. Rarely are psychedelic experiences so readily describable. Because the experience is so abstract, people concoct this particular brand of wild, fantastical description in an attempt to convey the profundity of what they experience. Take those accounts with a grain of salt.

When you take drugs to have a spiritual experience you are not having the experience, the experience is having you, if you get my meaning. Being unable to “wake up” or snap out of the experience means you are not in full control of the experience.

Believe me, YOU ARE having the experience. It's the same you that experiences a movie, a fit of anger, a lovely bisque, or a walk in the park. It is not categorically different than any other experience.

Why is it necessary to have full control of the experience? Full control of any experience is rare, and probably illusory anyway. There are many experiences that cannot be 'switched off' at will. Try getting off Space Mountain before it's done.

In fact, one of the most liberating facets of a psychedelic experience is the conscious act of relinquishing the asinine, futile need to control everything around us. This "let it be" attitude is at the center of many spiritual teachings.

You are at the mercy of your mind or of forces beyond your control. You then risk losing yourself, or of having a negative energy attach itself to you. Having a spiritual experience while on drugs is like propping open a door and being unable to close it if something is coming that you don’t want to let in.

I'm not sure what you mean about 'having negative energy attach itself to you.' If 'losing yourself' means losing your ego temporarily, then I think this is probably healthy, though traumatic. Western society is characterized by enslavement to the self-centered ego, and many of us don't even realize we are not our respective egos. Ego death is the hallmark of high-dose experiences, and most users do not approach this level of intensity.

But you are correct, the door is propped open, and only closes as the drug loses effect. It is entirely possible to see things you don't want to see. However, you are just seeing them. As I said, in my experience this is not unhealthy. They have no actual physiological effect on your body and their presence and importance in your mind will wane as the drug's effect does.

I understand the desire to create a spiritual experience, and it sure seems like drugs accomplish that, but you never really know the source. And when you don’t know the source you can’t be sure the source has good intentions.

I believe inanimate substances such as drugs don't have intentions or goals. Most people experience the effects as being decidedly benevolent, but I believe that whatever their interpretation is, it's solely a function of their mindset and their personal beliefs at the time.

Try working on having spiritual experiences without the drugs and see what happens. Most of the time it leads to a natural high that doesn’t end with the experience wears off.

I agree; clearheadedness is the state of mind most prone to spiritual insight. But that does not mean that certain drugs cannot be useful tools for self-discovery. They are just one of many. A huge perspective shift (like the one readily provided by hallucinogens) is invaluable for learning who one is and where one is going. These experiences DO provide lasting insights. If they disappeared with the drug's effect I would not bother.

[Mr.Mustache]

Thanks for articulating that better than I ever could have DayintheLife. No offense to Erin btw, I understand where she is coming from and I respect her opinion that one does not need drugs to have a spiritual experience. The problem is the poor characterization of hallucinogenic drug experiences.

[Marco Polo]

Hallucinogenic drugs are far better than amphetamines, heavy stimulants and in some ways even alcohol. They're not physically addictive, they generally don't result in adverse behaviour, and they've been shown to activate specific neural pathways associated with so-called "spiritual" experiences. Taken responsibly and in moderation I think they're OK.

[Jonathan Mead]

Dayinthelife, great responses. I think understanding of psychadelic trips can only really be understood by those that have had them. If you haven't, it's nearly impossible to convey their benefit or the experience in general. It's like trying to describe to someone what salt tastes like, if they haven't tasted it.

I don't think that psychadelics should be the preferred method of having a "spiritual experience" nor do I think they are right for everyone. I will say that they opened my mind to realities that I never dreamed of experiencing before and exposed me to thoughts and ideas that I'm not sure I would have had otherwise. These were all positive, enlightening and enriching experiences. Like trying any drug, caution and research should be used. A big outcome of your trip is determined by not only the drug, but your state of mind, beliefs and the environment you're in while tripping.

[Blueskied]

Psychedelics are also dangerous. They brought a lot of people to psychiatry (remember Syd Barrett?) or turned them into esoteric/spiritual wackos.

[carenkh]

Originally Posted by Blueskied

Psychedelics are also dangerous. They brought a lot of people to psychiatry (remember Syd Barrett?) or turned them into esoteric/spiritual wackos.

If you're using searching out psychiatric/psychologic help as a barometer for dangerous, then I'd say life itself is dangerous, and has also turned some people into esoteric/spiritual wackos.

I could have written Jonathan Mead's post - thanks for stating it so well.

[Mato Kinze]

Originally Posted by Blueskied

Psychedelics are also dangerous. They brought a lot of people to psychiatry (remember Syd Barrett?) or turned them into esoteric/spiritual wackos.

Hey... I happen to be one of those esoteric/spiritual wackos. We...er...I mean "I", yeah... "I" are doing just fine thank you very much.

"Never met a mushroom I didn't like."

[3500]

Oops... Erin, I like your writing, but this piece is really, really bad. Don't talk about what you don't know, mmmkay?

Starting with When you take drugs to have a spiritual experience you are not having the experience... your post is full of unfounded claims, that, in my experience, are not true at all.

Certainly, these substances are not for everybody, but I myself have learned a lot of very valuable lessons in my trips on psilocybe mushrooms, plus had experiences that left me in total awe for the greatness of nature, the beauty of it all. These experiences really don't leave you with nothing after the chemicals stop working... quite the opposite!

For me, mind expanding substances are a part of my spiritual life. I also practice meditation. Mind expanding substances are not physically addictive at all, and almost never mentally addictive.

I think Mato Kinze made a good point saying that it's all about intention. DayInTheLife also says some very good things. Experiencing ego death and becoming one with the all is... wow, one of the most beautiful experiences I had and certainly not one that lowered my vibration. I don't know where that was coming from Erin, but I suggest you really do some better research before writing anything like that again.

A lot of false claims being made in this blogpost... really a shame. As for the question "Are drugs a good way to achieve spiritual experiences?", I'd say: there is no good or bad, it's just a different way, that may or may not lead to a different experience. It may suit one better than the other.

[Niki]

I seem to notice that a lot of people feel attacked by this blog post. I don't know where you guys get your drugs, but when I was on it, I sure experienced some crazy things. I'm 100% drug free now, so I have a free look on the subject.

I can honestly say that spiritual experience under drugs is exactly 0,0%. Totaly false. Drugs is the poisoning of your body, and detaches your mind from your body from your spirit. I have seen people **** their pants when under influence, I don't think they where very aware of their body. I have seen people become total brain dead for a few hours after taking dope, I don't think that's very mind expanding. If you really want mind expanding experiences, learn lucid dreaming.

If you think "Mind Expanding substances" are not addictive at all, then why do you keep doing it, while it blows you off your socks. After a paddo trip, I always felt like crap, I don't think this is the aftermath of a spiritual experience.

Sorry to tell you dope heads this, but drugs give you a false experience, and is nothing spiritual at all. It is all physical, and disconnects you more then ever IMO.

[3500]

Originally Posted by Niki

If you think "Mind Expanding substances" are not addictive at all, then why do you keep doing it, while it blows you off your socks. After a paddo trip, I always felt like crap, I don't think this is the aftermath of a spiritual experience.

Because obviously my experiences with magic mushrooms have been quite different from yours

Sorry to tell you dope heads this, but drugs give you a false experience, and is nothing spiritual at all. It is all physical, and disconnects you more then ever IMO.

IYO, indeed

That's why I said: mind expanding drugs don't suit everyone. And I'm totally okay with that. Variation is the spice of life, isn't it?

[DayInTheLife]

I can honestly say that spiritual experience under drugs is exactly 0,0%. Totaly false.

Are you relating only your own experience, or are you speaking for everyone?

Drugs is the poisoning of your body, and detaches your mind from your body from your spirit.

"Drugs = poison" is typical reductionist BS. The word drug represents thousands of unique substances, each of which have their own physical and psychoactive properties. As for "detaching your mind from your body from your spirit"; please cite a credible source for that or else we'll be forced to dismiss it as elitist mumbo-jumbo.

If you think "Mind Expanding substances" are not addictive at all, then why do you keep doing it, while it blows you off your socks.

I do a lot of things periodically; that does not constitute addiction. Am I addicted to changing my oil, buying socks, calling my grandmother?

Sorry to tell you dope heads this, but drugs give you a false experience, and is nothing spiritual at all. It is all physical, and disconnects you more then ever IMO.

There is nothing false or invalid about a drug experience. Perhaps you could explain how any experience can be 'false'. If the mind is a part of our body, then all experiences are ultimately physical. So what? Spirituality is subjective; if a 'spiritual' experience is achievable while sober, then such an experience is achievable while on a drug as well. Once again, psychedelic drugs do not alter reality, they alter perspective.

Calling us dopeheads speaks volumes about your personal biases on this particular issue, to say nothing of your maturity level.

[DayInTheLife]

Originally Posted by carenkh

If you're using searching out psychiatric/psychologic help as a barometer for dangerous, then I'd