How do I know what you are doing is not a scam?

[treo]

Take a look at this story of a man who have been scammed by a person who was calling himself "a spiritual healer". It was determined that the person did not have formal training in religion, healing, medicine, counseling or psychotherapy. How do I know that what is being offered by Erin is different than what was being offered by that con man? Please do not take it as an offense, Erin, but do you have formal training in any of the above subjects?

[babuji]

I find it a bit disturbing that over the past few days people have been attacking both Steve and now Erin on the content and services that they are providing...

I would suspect some sort of forum abuse as there have been people with less than 5 posts writing negative stuff..

Nevertheless, it's worth looking into..

For Treo: There are much better ways to question Erin's abilities.. Instead of blatantly saying "How do I know what you are doing is not a scam?" which is a very negative question... you could have easily addressed your question in a more positive light such as : "What's unique about your service, or Have you had any mentors or formal training on the topic of spiritual guides and assistance? if so, how did you benefit them?"

and if you were really concerned you could have contacted Erin directly through her webpage and address your questions w/ her.

Think before you post..

(EDIT: to the Moderators.. all of Treo's posts have been negative in nature.. definitely reason to block him/her)

[cftwo]

Originally Posted by treo

It was determined that the person did not have formal training in religion, healing, medicine, counseling or psychotherapy. How do I know that what is being offered by Erin is different than what was being offered by that con man? Please do not take it as an offense, Erin, but do you have formal training in any of the above subjects?

I'm not even sure Erin claims to be offering services in regard to religion, healing, medicine, counseling or psychotherapy. If she's not, why would it matter?

[Dharma]

If one can create great melodies without formal training in music and thoery, can they call themselves a musician?

[leahj77]

I look at these forums as a virtual living room that Steve and Erin have made available to us. They have invited us into their home and been very open and honest about their lives and skills. I don't believe that they are scam artists.

Erin is very transparent, open and honest about her path, the choices she has made, the times she ignored her guides, the times she has listened and how she has trained. Just spend an hour or two going through her archives.

She also has a nice long presence on the web, going back to her Vegan Family days. One thing about scammers is they don't have much of a web presence. Ah, the power of google. She has also kindly and publicly responded to people who were confuses after their readings. When the email readings weren't going well at the beginning, she stopped doing them until she figured out how to make them benefit her clients.

However, if you believe they are scamming, then remove yourself from the community. Nobody is forcing you to be involved, spend your time or money here. That's not the law of attraction, that is the law of two feet. Or in this case, the law of keyboard and mouse.

[Savage]

Erin and I have discussed having her offer a no quibble money-back guarantee for her readings, so if you get a reading and aren't happy with it, you get a full refund. I really liked the idea at first, since I'm a strong proponent of risk reversal, meaning that the seller should assume as much of the risk as possible.

As we explored it further though, we couldn't find a way to make it work. Unlike downloadable products, where a return doesn't cost you much, and physical products, where a returned product can be restocked or refurbished, Erin's reading time can't be recouped. She only has a limited amount of time for readings, so any refunds would displace other potential clients. Given that this is obvious, it opens the door to easy abuse.

The problem is that if Erin offered a money-back guarantee, the open door would likely invite abuse from people who didn't really want a reading and just wanted to satisfy their curiosity, which would be a waste of Erin's time and would displace legitimate clients. To my knowledge Erin has never had a refund request or a chargeback after doing several hundred readings now, so I don't think a money-back guarantee would add much value for her clients anyway. It would only lower the bar for the clients she did attract, but Erin is already booking herself to capacity, even after doubling her rates since she started.

I can't imagine a skeptic being serious about using a reading for actual guidance with no ulterior motive, so I think it's best that Erin simply ignore skeptics altogether. Given a sketpic's assumption that Erin can't actually do what she claims to do, there isn't as much opportunity for genuine help to be provided. A skeptic asking for a reading is like a blind man asking for a pair of glasses. You can give them what they ask for, but their bias prevents them from receiving most of the benefit.

I still like the idea of incorporating some sort of risk reversal to make it easier for non-skeptics to book a reading if cost is a concern. We might be able to offer a money-back guarantee for repeat clients or something along those lines.

[Erin Pavlina]

If you're a total skeptic (or a troll ) you definitely shouldn't get a reading because the purpose of a reading is to provide guidance, not to convince you of why you should get a reading. I've done some readings for skeptics and no matter how much information I get correct (specific names of specific relatives, their boss's name, the fact that they recently got their girlfriend pregnant, etc.) they still can't accept it, because it conflicts with their view of reality too much.

Skeptics are looking for proof, not guidance. I'm in the guidance business.

If you need proof, wait until you get to the afterlife and you'll have all the proof you need.

[elainevdw]

Kind of off-topic, I've been on forums before where people weren't allowed to say anything that sounded remotely negative about the forum host, or else they got shunned and/or banned. Not a good practice. Makes for some really unwelcoming forums.

Back on topic, advice is what it is -- take it or leave it. Can you really sue someone for your following their advice?

[Savage]

You might find this article helpful, since it includes advice for how to tell someone with legitimate psychic ability from a con artist:
http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/200...chic-readings/

In my opinion the best way to find a really outstanding psychic is to get a personal referral. That's generally the best way to find good professionals in any field.

If you can't figure it out or still feel confused, then you just have to decide whether you want to take the risk or not. If it seems too risky or if you don't feel good about it, don't do it.

[shesaboutspirit]

I was just thinking about how many times I've had a traditional MD advise me to take some medication or course of action that has turned out very, very badly for me. I feel like we tend to give "credentials" way too much power. It's taken me too many of these experiences to come to the conclusion that I am the only one who gets to decide what is or is not right for me. The people who I am asking to help me, are just giving me their own perspective, and I need to decide whether to make it mine or not.

Personal responsibility, I believe it's called...

[Jill]

Not every service needs formal training to be able to perform it. I have no formal training in my area of expertise, but I get paid plenty for what I do and don't generally have dissatisfied clients.

Definitely get referrals and check references, and go from there!

[emf]

Originally Posted by treo

How do I know that what is being offered by Erin is different than what was being offered by that con man?

It looks like the man in your story admitted to charging for rituals when he really hadn't done anything. He also said he was a fake. I guess that means that if we pay for an email or a phone call from Erin and get one, and Erin never says that she was making up the stories about spirit guides, there's no fraud involved. I wonder why Cesar A. Rodriguez-Gonzalez gave himself up like that. It sounds odd. Maybe there was a sting or something. Or maybe he was coerced. :-o

[Veekay]

Some abilities are gifts you are born with. Accomplished people take those gifts and hone them with practice.

As far as I know there is no MS in PS (Psychic Science). The earth was always concieved to be flat before the 15th century. There were several sceptics but the truth remained.

[stephencp]

Indeed, many people put way too much stock in "formal training". How many MD and PhD were and are wrong about drugs approved by the FDA? How many priests are convicted of molestation (not to mention things like the Inquisition and Galileo...)? Many psychiatrists I know have totally messed up thier own lives. While not meaningless, a diploma or certificate is just that. You need to look at results, which leads us to the personal referral that Steve mentioned.
Many really successful people grew into their jobs and did not have the "education" beforehand.

Stephen
Power-Book Library: Free personal development, success, inspiration and motivational classics

[ScottS]

I think the better question is how are Erin's results distinguishable from experienced cold readers'?

[Isis Kali]

I think it's telling the original poster has gone AWOL.

Can we say "troll"...?

Anyway, there's no training that can make up for the heart and soul contact of a reading. The cards can say whatever they please, but you know what? Doesn't mean that the reader has to follow the book in interpreting them.

A good spiritual advisor is like a shrink, but with an open link to Spirit. Because there's a better connection with the untangible- be it deeper-than-average reasoning skills, Talent, or impeccable intuition- they are able to put information out there that rings true with the client, and can then be used in a way that is constructive to the client. In other words, they give you something of not only great spoken value, but of great spiritual and soul value. Not many people can do that.

Same with Steve...he may not be a shrink with a Ph.D., but he can put words, feeling, and common sense together in such an inspirational fashion that other people are inspired to take positive action with his words. That's the mark of a good PD theorist. He is great at putting joy and value into words.

Plus, there are very obvious marks to a scam artist. Erin doesn't seem like a gypsy reader to me, and I don't think she's shilling fake "cleansing" rituals. I fell in with one of those types, and to this day I can't figure out if I was cheated or not. It was only $150, but she did some shady things from the sham script, and then didn't do others. I'll never know.

(Personally, I think the poster(s) are people that are attached to y'all's competition or something, and they jus' jellus, but that's my take on it.)

[Savage]

The creator of this thread was indeed a troll who created multiple fake accounts. He used those accounts to derail threads and engage in personal attacks. It took a while to figure out what he was doing, and all of his accounts were banned shortly thereafter. As it turned out, the guy had some kind of religious vendetta against me and Erin.

Since then the mods and I have gotten better at spotting and banishing trolls. Spammers are usually banned within minutes, but trolls are more difficult to detect.

[Isis Kali]

Eeek! Wow, that's unfortunate!

[Frans]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

The creator of this thread was indeed a troll who created multiple fake accounts. He used those accounts to derail threads and engage in personal attacks. It took a while to figure out what he was doing, and all of his accounts were banned shortly thereafter. As it turned out, the guy had some kind of religious vendetta against me and Erin.

Steve, it might help many people in the I-M forum if you would like to answer this question: was Markus74 one of those accounts?

I noticed that both the starter of this thread and Markus74 have the same "reputation": "... is an unknown quantity at this point", while most other posters have this : "... is on an distinguished road".