An advice to dead or dying people, from an unfortunate living spirit

[JohnR]

Yeah, I guess if you really feel that way, then you shouldn't.

For me, discovery is about awareness and observation. It isn't always a pleasant experience. I used the word "quest" and that implies intent. Sometimes though, intent is a very quiet thing; a background impulse. Curiosity keeps me here despite the hardships and stench of my emotional swamp.

I have made the hard effort to explore existence, and I have found enough power from that to keep me in this painful spot until I understand it and it passes. I know what is possible for us.

But that is just as I see it. Your way may be easier. Nature doesn't care one iota what you and I do. It will only matter to us.

John

[Angela]

Whatever you decide to do, I would take with a grain of salt the "truths" told by people who claim to have had near-death-experiences. A near-death experience is like a near-pregnancy-experience.

[JohnR]

Originally Posted by Angela

A near-death experience is like a near-pregnancy-experience.

Good one :-)

I often feel we are disadvantaged by our intellect. We place too much emphasis on words; our words, other's words. Words are just thoughts expressed, and thoughts are dead the moment they are phrased. The instant of discovery where there are no words as yet, is the only moment that holds any power.

We have the capacity to learn experientially about the nature of existence; to actually merge with that and engage it. Thinking about it or supposed knowing about it does nothing to engage the power of it.

I'd best quit before I get on a tangent :-)

John

[suicidaldude]

By the way, if anybody has any lonks on how could a spirit or soul disappear and the related subjects, I'd be interested. Except for maybe that one blog entry, I didn't find anything significant. There seems to be quite a taboo on the whole thing, or nobody's interested, I don't know.

[Andwan]

actually, in one of her books sylvia browne mention the fact that you have the choice to forfeit your identity...She also told a grieving family that there son was dead....But thats at least one other reference to erin's theory...

[suicidaldude]

"She also told a grieving family that there son was dead"

What do you mean by that? Do you mean that she told 'em their son decided to disappear? I don't get it.

[cdn2wheeler]

Please play absolutely no heed whatsoever to whatever Sylvia Brown says. In my opinion, her so-called "psychic powers" resemble that of a radish. She's the worst kind of low-life, taking advantage of people when they're at their absolute lowest point for her own personal monetary gain.

She disgusts me.

[JohnR]

Originally Posted by cdn2wheeler

Please play absolutely no heed whatsoever to whatever Sylvia Brown says. In my opinion, her so-called "psychic powers" resemble that of a radish. She's the worst kind of low-life, taking advantage of people when they're at their absolute lowest point for her own personal monetary gain.

She disgusts me.

Psychics can become victims of their own ability. Their ego (I wish there was a better word) can take over as they begin to identify with how other people see them. They loose their ability to discriminate between their imaginings and true perception. In the end it ruins them, though they may not know it. It's a tough row to hoe.

John
John Rocheleau Canadian Artist

[Megan]

Me: Well then who would choose to just disappear entirely? If there is the chance of continuing to exist, why would anyone choose to disappear altogether?

Him: Fear, pain, lack of belief. Many people simply aren’t that interested in evolving. They find life too difficult and don’t want to try again. There is no shame in letting your essence merge back with the ether.

Erin Pavlina - Spiritual Wisdom for Conscious People » Blog Archive » The After-Death

Fear, pain and lack of belief.

These can be transcended, but for some of us, there's hell to pay in the effort. Having invested this much in the struggle, I seem to be past the point of no return. But I certainly did spend years fantasizing about pounding my head on the pavement to split my head open like a watermelon so I wouldn't have to goddamn THINK anymore.

In any case, I would think that the very process of blending back into the Void would resemble hell, because one would have to let go of one's ego all at once, instead of by increments, like we are able to do before shuffling off this mortal coil.

Meg

[Megan]

I surfed onto this yesterday--I'm not endorsing "Dr." Turi, you understand (he seems to do the very things he accuses other of doing):

http://http://astrostarblog.blogspot...ia-browne.html

[Andwan]

No, there son did not decide to disappear...There was a couple who was looking for there lost child, and hoping Syliva could provide some answers, they went on the montel show...Instead of what they hope for, syliva told them that there son had been killed...Later the boy was found alive...

[Mr.Mustache]

Originally Posted by Andwan

No, there son did not decide to disappear...There was a couple who was looking for there lost child, and hoping Syliva could provide some answers, they went on the montel show...Instead of what they hope for, syliva told them that there son had been killed...Later the boy was found alive...

Sylvia is a fake. Sorry but I think some psychics are legitimate but if you look at her predictions its obvious she is full of ****.

[decterlove]

Rather than debate any of the specific interesting points mentioned above let me just add a few observations to the pot....

I've been feeling totally despondent for several days. I found a book the other day and read a little about one pyschic's take on the after-effects of suicide, and was rather relieved to have her observations that the consequences are not necessarily severe or punishing in any way. This legitimized it for me as a last ditch option if things just get way too much to deal with down the line and paradoxically relieved some of my tension.

I'm in my mid-fifties and fear both aging, chronic poverty, and the abysmal direction the Culture at large is heading. It certainly seems possible from a Christian perspective we are living in an Apocalyptic age. (I consider myself an esoteric Christian, although a very lame one...lol.)

Getting more to the point of the topic being discussed, I particularly like the way Megan expressed her thoughts. But I suspect negotiating this difficult terrain may be more challenging for a male, given the general lack of permission we have to express any deep feelings of grief and sadness especially. I do know however that if one can truly feel the pain one is suffering at any given moment there is often a transformation and a release from a good portion of the torment associated with it. But our culture at large virtually forbids any real expression of emotion, certainly in public and I think this carries very far over into our privates lives as well.

A big part of the despair one experiences in this world is not simply the existential pain of living but more often about falling victim to the dualistic judgments we make about ourselves. I am flat broke and unemployed right now and a business I've attempted to start seems to be non-viable. But I have food to eat. I have tea to drink in the morning. I have a warm room and a bed. I can take a walk or go for a bike ride. I can rest, read or surf the internet. Yet I am still in a great deal of psychic pain.

The pain is largely derived from the judgments I automatically make about myself for making some decisions that may not have been sound, for being naive, and for collapsing emotionally around the outer challenges I am facing. My ideal internalized view of myself requires that I be Bond-like in the face of adversity, smart like Trump about financial issues, independent....ie....never needing help from others, and "belong" to the imagined "middle class" society around me, that is obviously largely a mirage anyway, and the sense that my judgment is terrible, and I can't trust my instincts and follow my intuition in any way that ultimately alters my chronic set of difficulties.

Megan's suggestion of allowing/facing the Void has a lot of value I believe but at the same time is made difficult by some of the self judgments we make about ourselves. It is entirely possible that I am currently stuck in an internal process of PUNISHING myself for my supposed failures, in a way that duplicates my childhood pain, and when some external element finally presents itself that I interpret reflects and validates my self worth....I will reward myself by feeling good again. (Of course, this could be interpreted as merely falling into the same dualistic trap just from the other end of it...)

And while there is a certain physiological discomfort associated with depression/despair, the actual feeling if observed carefully is often not that uncomfortable...just sort of heavy and fragile, and even this level of discomfort may indeed just be "stuck chi" and potentially movable with some forms of energy work as mentioned above. Plus sometimes we just don't take care of ourselves very well in this state, eat the wrong things, sleep too little or too much, etc. and wind up adding a whole level of physical fatigue to the rest of our misery. It is the added layer of psychological torment that is what makes the experience of despair seem so intolerable.

Sorry if I meandered off topic in any way...by the way, I think Sylvia is for the most part genuine...just a bit mediocre in her abilities to interpret the larger picture and predicting the future is always a highly iffy enterprise. I'm sure that anyone truly wise and enlightened would never make it to a regular slot on a daytime tv show! Not even on Oprah...lol.

[Megan]

Decterlove, yeah, I have similar tape loops playing in my mind, also. Very well said, by the way!

Just yesterday it dawned on me that part of taking care of myself is asking for help. What a concept!

So I e-mailed my loved ones and said, hey, I know this is neurotic, but I'm stuck in this tape loop about having to be "dutiful" about a certain family member and I feel all alone in it, and I can't seem to just take care of myself without just SAYING what's hanging me up. So, can this certain family member be all of our deals, so that I actually get to individuate before I die, instead of being a righteous martyr, which is like, you know, so yucky to be around?

I always think I have to just, you know "buck up." Sometimes you gotta just talk to take care of yourself. Being alone in your tape loops...well that's just HELL.

That's why suicide becomes a sort of seductive lover--anything to get away from #%@* having to THINK!

So, obviously I'm not over that yet, but I'm enough over it that I don't think about suicide all the time.

[Andwan]

i was thinking about this thread and I decided to say something...at some point in everyone's life, theres that moment when they wish they were just dead...I'm afraid you thinking you're worthless or evil isn't a very unique quality...for the most part I believe fear drives everyone to feel this way, in one point in there life or another...there are thoes who would rather die young then to ever age...fear would drive thoes people to want to kill themselves...very superficial example, but one that really exist...
another thought, I believe that fear is what make suicidal people like yourself not want to kill yourself...Though you want to die, theres a thought that you hope the things you read about the afterlife is true...you hope erin's articles and blogs are accurate...but then there are other simple minded suicidal people (coming from someone who grew up on the bible belt) who fear hell if they kill themselves...Interesting...Fear creates suicidal people, yet fear also keeps suicidal people from killing themselves....

[Megan]

...and "Conscience makes cowards of us all," as Shakespeare said.

The afterlife is basically a crapshoot, and you can read all opinions from eternally burning hell to "no problem" if you kill yourself. There is no possible way of knowing for sure.

For that reason, if no other, it makes sense to me to hang on and try to process out the reasons one wants to leave the world, even though I truly believe that the universe is friendly and not against us. But we can be against ourselves and cause ourselves pain that is not punishment, but just effect from our own actions.

And the good news is, there are ways to process emotions. The book The Presence Process is good, I think:

Amazon.com: The Presence Process: A Healing Journey into Present Moment Awareness: Books: Michael Brown

From Hamlet, Second Quarto

To be, or not to be: that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them? To die: to sleep;
No more; and by a sleep to say we end
The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks
That flesh is heir to, 'tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wish'd. To die, to sleep;
To sleep: perchance to dream: ay, there's the rub;
For in that sleep of death what dreams may come
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us pause: there's the respect
That makes calamity of so long life;
For who would bear the whips and scorns of time,
The oppressor's wrong, the proud man's contumely,
The pangs of despised love, the law's delay,
The insolence of office and the spurns
That patient merit of the unworthy takes,
When he himself might his quietus make
With a bare bodkin? who would fardels bear,
To grunt and sweat under a weary life,
But that the dread of something after death,
The undiscover'd country from whose bourn
No traveller returns, puzzles the will
And makes us rather bear those ills we have
Than fly to others that we know not of?
Thus conscience does make cowards of us all;
And thus the native hue of resolution
Is sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought,
And enterprises of great pith and moment
With this regard their currents turn awry,
And lose the name of action. - Soft you now!
The fair Ophelia! Nymph, in thy orisons
Be all my sins remember'd.

'Dude, I hope you are still with us, and I hope that doesn't make me your enemy. As enemies go, I'm not so bad....you could do worse....

Megan

[JohnR]

Originally Posted by Megan

I truly believe that the universe is friendly and not against us.

Megan

The universe doesn't give a crap about us. It is totally indifferent and dispassionate; just a set of laws governing cause and affect. Well, it is more than that, but what matters here is that the universe will accept, without judgment or intervention, whatever we set up for ourselves. It is neither for nor against us.

Wisdom -- if you want to ascribe that quality to the universe -- is dispassionate. Wisdom must always be dispassionate. That's why bad things happen to good people; because there is a larger methodology in place that doesn't give two monkeys for our emotional interpretation of where we are at in our lives.

The universe doesn't care how we feel. It cares about what we do; it cares about our intent and the power we put behind it. That is what the universe responds to. It has an unswerving agenda that we are part of; a powerful creation that is unfolding -- that will blindly discard anything that does not align with it's program. There is no glory or fulfillment in the deep sleep of the death escape. There is just one less human in the eyes of the universe.

It is up to us to care about ourselves and our fellow humans, about how we progress, and how we fail. Even the person who says they don't care about life, often seems to care greatly about what they think they are going to achieve in the act of ending it. The upshot is that they still care, but their care is misplaced. If only they could see the uselessness of their actions and how indifferent nature is to them. If only they could see what is possible, what they can be part of creating; they would redirect that caring they still possess into something the universe will conspire with.

Cheers,
John
Paintings of British Columbia - John Rocheleau

[suicidaldude]

Hey Meg, no, we're not enemies. Like you know, I've been ostracized so many times I can't afford to have any more enemies, especially "virtual" ones! I was not following this thread because I had my mind focused on other topics, namely peak oil, lately more than ever. I was just watching the ongoing collapse of our civilization and the soon to come death of most of us, and guess what, I realized I didn't really care or react emotionally whatsoever anymore. Even the thoughts of my own family having to suffer and eventually die pretty soon does not distress me anymore.

So I was wondering if maybe this lack of interest was making me a better candidate for the void when I die. Maybe, who knows? Anyway, I sure hope so.

That does not change anything about what I told you in PM, especially the things about the selfishness of reproduction and motherhood, but at least you know we're not enemies.

[JSB]

I've been reading up a great deal on peak oil theory recently, and while it has the potential to cause the collapse of our modern civilization, I don't think that is how this particular issue is going to play itself out.

The transition from petroleum to other energy sources will cause some nasty economic shocks to be sure, but I think that the other side of the transition will actually see an economy and energy base that is healthier, greener and more reliable than our current one.

Peak oil armageddon assumes that as oil prices rise beyond a certain point, people will give up and die. The fact is, there's enough oil to last for decades; it's just going to be atrociously expensive as demand outstrips production. The inflationary pressure will drive a worldwide recession, but will also spur investment and development of alternatives.

A recession will in of itself reduce demand to some degree, and efficiency improvement alone (at least in the U.S.) can reduce our oil consumption by at least 30%. This will not "solve the oil problem", but it can act as a valve to reduce demand and keep prices from exploding indefinitely.

It may take panic, hyperinflation and economic depression to drive conversion to alternative energy, but the alternatives are out there and they are viable. It is not necessary to convert all at once either, only fast enough to reduce demand for oil and keep prices from hyperinflating.

Algae produced biodiesel has the potential to replace all liquid fuels used in the US without displacing existing food crops. The technology needs to be perfected, but does not require converting the entire vehicle fleet to exotic hypercapacitor powered electric cars or anything of the sort.

Don't get me wrong, high oil prices will cause a great deal of pain, deprivation, fighting, and political unrest, as well as environmental damage as coal gasification is used as a "stopgap fuel", but peak oil will only destroy modern civilization if we sit back and let it.

[suicidaldude]

Well, based on what you've written, I wouldn't say you have spent a "great deal of time" on it. No offense though, but you've said a lot of mistakes.

First of all, no, the theory does not state that the price will go "high enough that people will give up".

Second of all, no, hyperinflation and economic depressions NEVER "spur out investment". They put investment to a halt.

Third of all, no, we don't have any alternatives. It's not that we don't have alternatives "now", or "scalable" or "cheap enough as of now", but we just have NO alternatives, and we never will. When one spends a "great deal of time" reading about peak oil, they kinda learn that through their first 1/2 hour of reading. Again, no offense. Let's not even go back on this algae hoax, or the bioethanol hoax, or any other hoax. Just read a "great deal" and you'll stop talking about their "potential to replace" oil by yourself.

Fourth of all, we don't have "decades of oil". We are already on the plateau, slightly past peak, and an important decrease of production is to be expected in the next years, not decades.

Finally, food production is 100% deoendent on oil, for pesticides, fertilizers, machinery, transportation... where's all your "bioethanol" gone, dude?

And there are also the plastics.

So don't get me wrong, I can sympathize with the fact that you are still in denial about the fate of the industrial civilization and the coming death of 90+% of mankind, but it'll happen anyway. So you should get past your denial state pretty soon and start facing the truth. Praying for the Great Solar Panel in the Sky will not change your future or mine.

But this is not the place to talk about that. PM me if you will.

[JSB]

There seem to be certain memes that are taken for granted in any community, including the peak oil community. The most prominent appears to be: "there's nothing we can do, destruction is inevitable". In that community, no alternative opinions are accepted as anything other than pie-in-the-sky denial.

On the other hand, there are peak oil deniers who insist that it's all a load of bollocks, there's plenty of oil for everyone, and market forces will spur the painless development of economic alternatives on demand.

I remain unconvinced by either of these. I believe that peak il is a real phenomonon, but I'm not sure that the symmetrical Hubbert's peak is an accurate model; the tail end of the oil curve may be somewhat less steep, somewhat closer to linear.

I'm not disputing peak oil theory; I am however, unconviced by some of the conclusions that certain proponents have come to.

I don't believe ethanol is a viable alternative to petroleum on a large scale. Algae, however, is certainly no hoax, and is does not require that same degree of petrochemical intensive cultivation as conventional agriculture.

In end, I do not believe that peak oil is not a problem nor that it will be easily surmounted; it's going to be ugly. However, I do not believe that an 80% crash in population and a return to the dark ages is inevitable either.

I'm not trying to convince you of anything, merely stating how I see things, which I know that you disagree with.

[suicidaldude]

Well, my tone was probably not the most respectful (to say the least), so I apologize.

However, with oil howering right under 100$ a barrel, world production having peaked and no end in sight to the war in the middle east, if a solution there was to be, I believe we'd be working overtime on it already, and it should already have a 10% marketshare worldwide. The reason why we are not seeing it is, IMO, that there is no alternative.

Algaes does seem to be the best solution, but look 1 or 2 years ago, everyone but the doomers said that ethanol was the future. The peak oil doomers all said that ethanol would 1) not solve any energy shortages and 2) create a food shortage. And here we are 2 years after, and guess what ? ethanol 1) did not solve any energy problem and 2) are starting to create a food problem. The doomers were right.

The same will be true with algaes IMO, they could look like a solution now but in a very short time they'll probably look like yet another problem too.

As for the stable decline, why did it not occur after any national peak ? Even the US production curve, which was pretty conventional, showed 2-3% annual decline. Mexico is losing 8% a year, the UK 12%. Why would a world decline be the ONLY peak curve not to follow that rule ? What is your scientific/theoric argument for that ? In a world with our laws of physics, I don't see your "sustainable peak" last more than a few years at best.

As for the population crash, well, before oil, there were 1.5 billion people on earth. That means that without oil, at least 5 billion people will have to die. Now factor in the soil erosion and loss of nutrients, the environmental degradation, global warming and the potential resource wars, and you end up with an armaggeddon that'd make the Christian Rapture lokk like a mild hangover for humankind. And peak oil does that with only fool-proof theory and scientific arguments. In my vision of things, 80% of humankind dying off could even look pretty conventional. More in the 95% figure, if you ask me.

Anyway, given the current news reports, I am confident that life will prove me right. And that I'll have a shot at the Void (a little side-deal).

[Megan]

Hey, we're all gonna hold hands and jump into the Void together, like Joe Versus the Volcano!

Are we, like, insane, waging war with the Last Oil of Civilization? Oh yeah, The Rapture is our Exit Strategy, I forgot.

As far as the Universe being friendly, that's just my belief. I'd have to, like, be bigger than the Universe to know if it's friendly, unfriendly, indifferent or whatever, so I have no way of knowing for sure. Friendly is a working hypothesis. Only that.

If the Universe lets us create our own experience, that seems friendly to me. That could also be seen as unfriendly. That could also be seen as indifferent.

If the Universe responds to our intent, then nature isn't indifferent to us, by definition. It is responsive. Seems to me, anyway.

Well, about the "selfishness of reproduction and motherhood," you know I agree--but it's mostly unconscious for most women. Like using up our last oil for war, bringing babies into poverty in a world hanging over the abyss is a deeply unconscious act. It's hard for me to want to saddle such poor wretches with a moral label as well, know what I mean?

I do think that religious restrictions on birth control are a big problem.

As someone once said, "Life must be lived forward but understood backward."

And "Vee get too soon oldt und too late schmart."

Anyways, I'll admit it, I'm really, really glad you're still kickin' and delivering up doomsday reports!

Meg

[Megan]

The Mayan Calendar fans seem to have divided into denominations now, and it seems that one Swede named Calleman is telling us that day-after-tomorrow is a big transition day into the Fifth Night of the Mayan Calendar (can't prove it by me):

One of the conclusions that we may draw from this body of evidence is that in the next few years we may expect a downfall of all hierarchical structures and especially those that are based on Western dominance of the world.

Another prediction is that the rule of darkness in the time period November 19, 2007 to November 13, 2008, will be a very oppressive period exerted by exactly those forces that will make their last desperate attempt to maintain their dominance of the world.

If this time period is confused with a period of light many people will go along with it in the same way as happened when this very same energy ruled the world, and especially Germany, during the era 1932-1952.

It then seems obvious that the ruling circles of our planet do not want this information to reach the broader public and the defenders of the December 21, 2012 date that deny that we are living in an ongoing evolution of consciousness are playing directly into their hands.

When the reaction comes in November of 2007 the ruling elite, primarily based in the US, would much rather have people think that nobody should be able to question their rule and that spiritual freedom is impossible.

In that time the proponents of the December 21, 2012 date will come in very handy for the rulers and all ideas that the Mayan calendar describes an evolution towards oneness and balance will be suppressed.

Of course, these statements are not based on some divine revelation, but with analogies that associate this time period with corresponding destructive eras in the past. The primary reason that the end date is important is in my view that it strongly colors our perception of the present and the immediate time ahead.

The Question of the Mayan Calendar End Date - by Carl Johan Calleman

Based on the ruling energies of time -and parallels to lower Underworlds- we may then expect a scenario somewhat like the following: In the first half of the Fifth day (November 24, 2006 - May 22, 2007) there will be intensified conflicts between the monotheist religions, and especially between Judaism and Islam, where both will seek to have their own prophecies fulfilled.

At the same time a minor flow towards oneness will emerge, a flow of people that is the most direct expression of the breakthrough energy and seek to transcend the conflicts between scriptures. Toward the end of this first half, however, the parties in the conflict will get stuck (possibly as a result of disaster) and a messianic energy that does not belong to any of the existing religions will have a chance to be expressed in the second half of day 5, from May 22 to November 19, 2007.

This will have global repercussions, but will be followed during the Fifth night, November 19, 2007, to November 12, 2008, by the energy of Tezcatlipoca, the lord of darkness.

Especially the first half of this rule may well correspond to what in Revelation language is called the Beast or Antichrist and will mean a return to the materialism of the Planetary Underworld, maybe based on the development of a new monetary system and electronic control on a world-wide scale.

In the second half of this night (beginning May 17, 2008) we will probably see a loosening of the grip of this reaction, which leads into a wave movement that from our current perspective may best be described as a chaos of divinely guided anarchy lasting for three-and-a-half tun, 1260 days. This time period is also mentioned in the Bible that recognizes the Mayan tun period of 360 days as a prophetic year.

Hand Clow 2012: Mayan Calendar Updates

Ducking for incoming.

[suicidaldude]

I have problems with the Mayans calendar as well as with the Rapture or any other form of eschatlolgy, be them Christian, Muslim, esoteric or otherwise.

Not that they don't seem to come in handy and the moment of the energy, food, water, climate and population crises. If you ask me, the timing of these prophecies is VERY troublesome and would have me scratch my head for hours trying to figure "how the hell did they know ?".

My main problem with the Long Count is that it appears at first to be just that : a "Long Count", i.e. a clock based on astronomical alignment from a spatial POW.

I mean, saying that some form of "Apocalypse" must happen every time the clock goes back to 0 is the same as saying 'Oops, my alarm clock is nearing mignight again, the house is going to be burn/collapse/blow up". But when your clock clicks midnight, nothing else happens, it just so happens that it is... midnight.

I don't understand why the Long Count should be any different, but I admit that all these theories seem to really fit in today's worlds events.

But damn, give me your chaos and mass deaths and doomsday, after all that'll solve my problem!

[Megan]

The Calleman take on the Mayan Calendar is interesting to me, at least, in that he thinks the entire calendar tracks evolution, which, he believes, goes in cycles that the Mayans somehow intuited.

IOW, the Mayan Calendar is not a doomsday scenario, in his view, but rather, tracks evolution from the physical beginnings to the 'maturing' of human consciousness.

He believes that at each repeat of a cycle, more events are crowded into the same time frame, so, at the very end, time seems to speed up exponentially, and hierarchical institutions will not be able to keep pace and will crumble (which jibes somewhat with Peak Oil, it would seems to me).

AND, he says...we will move into a state of pure consciousness BEYOND TIME.

I don't know, though...maybe he's just a crank.

Anyway, happy Fifth Night!

Meg

[suicidaldude]

On another point, Meg, you raised the point that mothers around the world didn't really realized how selfish they were by bringing another being to this world, and that as such they could not really be accused of it.

Fair point, but I'll have to add two thoughts : First, in our legal systems, murder by accident or lack of care is still considered murder. Granted, punishment is less harsh for it than for murders made on purpose, but it is still considered a crime and still is punished. The same logic should be applied to motherhood : most of them didn't "mean'" for their offspring to suffer all their lives, but it happened anyway, and not meaning for it is no excuse.

Secondly, I know that quite a few people, including many women, decided, given the state of the world we live in, not to have kids. Now, these women need love too, and many of them would have loved to have kids, but, out of humanity, decided to abstain. So some people do think about their actions or inactions beforehand, which makes birthgiving even less excusable.

Not to blame anybody, but the lack of second thoughts is no excuse, especially now that contraception and abortion techniques are widespread (at least in the First World), making it easy to make the right decision and to avoid bringing the pain of living to yet another human being, even before life has started.

[Megan]

Well, I have a preference for democratic government over despotic rule, so I think education is the answer for the overpopulation miseries.

EDIT: How shall we punish mothers for having babies--put them in jail and build huge orphanages? Or...?

Religion is a very difficult hurdle because it holds people in chains of fear.

Sure, it would be great if everyone were really, really conscious, but you can't get blood out of a turnip, and many, if not most, of us have come up in abusive situations and it takes years, decades really, to even figure out what hit us, much less get on solid footing. Lots of unfortunate babies get born meanwhile.

So yeah, we can pin moral labels on things, and yeah, people are responsible for their actions, but people need to live their way in to consciousness, they can't really take quantum leaps.

Being around people who are conscious does help people to make quantum leaps, but how many people like that are there, really?

Back to education....

[Megan]

Enjoy!

Warning - Comet Holmes transition with malefic star Algol. , page 1