proof of astral travel

[Rosie]

Howcome people who astral travel are not able to prove it to scientists?

[Joeschmoe]

What is there to prove?

[Erin Pavlina]

What makes you think people who astral travel have not been able to prove it to scientists? I think what you're really asking is that if astral travel was real, it would be easy to test scientifically and therefore the whole world would know about it and be easily able to believe in it since it's been scientifically proven. Right?

Let's pretend it's the year 1149 and someone is going on about atoms and quarks and stuff like that. And let's pretend there is a message board. Humor me. And someone comes on and asks, "how come people who claim that atoms exist are not able to prove it to scientists?" The answer: Because no one has invented a device or tool capable of detecting them. Doesn't mean they aren't there.

We're all waiting for "science" to catch up with those of us experiencing this phenomenon.

[cdn2wheeler]

Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina

We're all waiting for "science" to catch up with those of us experiencing this phenomenon.

Then take it to the next level. Don't wait; conduct your own experiment and have it properly monitored and supervised by legitimate researchers.

Astral traveller is in a closed, locked room. Two rooms away is a sign that flashes random nonsensical messages. Beside the sign is a clock. A video camera tapes the clock and the sign.

Neither the astral traveller nor the investigator knows what messages are going to be displayed at what time.

The astral traveller will travel to that room, see the message and the time, then return to his/her body and report to the investigator. The traveller will do this no fewer than 6 times in a 6 hour period.

After the experiment is over and the investigator has recorded the traveller's responses, a second investigator watches the video with the report in hand and notes which answers are correct and which are not.

Conduct this experiment using different travellers, different investigators and at different times. Then quantify the results.

If you can pull this off, you could change the way that science views the paranormal, and that would be all to the good.

[Erin Pavlina]

these experiments have been done. Lots of experiments to test astral travel are done. Someone who has researched them should probably post on the results. I have not delved into the research since no proof is required to someone already experiencing the phenomenon. But if someone is interested in the research, believe me, it's out there.

[Dan.Linehan]

Here's a pretty interesting test if anyone wants to try it.

ESP Test #4: William Briggs

[Erin Pavlina]

That isn't a good test of astral projection but it could be a good test of telepathy. He knows the word, so someone with telepathic ability could pick it out of his brain without ever leaving their body.

Also, astral projection and remote viewing are not the same thing. There is some overlap. In remote viewing you stay in your body but are sending your mind's eye out looking. mental projection I've heard it called in some books.

With astral projection you leave your body. It's like the peanut leaving the shell and when you look behind you, there it lays.

[cdn2wheeler]

Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina

That isn't a good test of astral projection but it could be a good test of telepathy. He knows the word, so someone with telepathic ability could pick it out of his brain without ever leaving their body.

Either way, one who could project or use their telepathic abilities should be able to deduce the answer.

I don't claim to have either ability. But those of us on the board that claim such abilities should be able to do this in a heartbeat.

Anyone?

(by the way, I tried a word and came up incorrect)

[Mr.Mustache]

Scientists have done tests on OBErs. I believe the scientist Robert Morris did an experiment that had positive results. Very few have been done and any aspect of parapsychology has been ignored by mainstream science for a long time because it conflicts with there basic assumptions. That the brain creates consciousness.

OBEs takes skill and doing it in a lab probably takes more so you can't expect an obvious amount of research to be done in that area. NDEs (near-death experiences), which are very similar to OBEs, have occurred when there was no brain activity picked up by EEGs and what not. If NDEs are created in the brain then it is likely that when an individual has an NDE there would be at least some gamma brain waves which are always present in conscious experience. Not to mention the fact the integrated and organized experience almost requires at least some frontal lobe activity. None was detectable in most NDEs.

Also look up the case of Pam Reynolds, which is like the smoking gun of documented NDEs. Michael Prescott's Blog: Irreducible Mind and the NDE

There is also reports of veridical OBEs (if I spelled that right google search it) which are cases when people see another person out of body.

So, is there evidence? Yes. Do most scientists care? No.

link: Skeptiko - Science at the Tipping Point Scroll down a bit to find a podcast on NDE.

[Sam988]

Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina

What makes you think people who astral travel have not been able to prove it to scientists? I think what you're really asking is that if astral travel was real, it would be easy to test scientifically and therefore the whole world would know about it and be easily able to believe in it since it's been scientifically proven. Right?

Let's pretend it's the year 1149 and someone is going on about atoms and quarks and stuff like that. And let's pretend there is a message board. Humor me. And someone comes on and asks, "how come people who claim that atoms exist are not able to prove it to scientists?" The answer: Because no one has invented a device or tool capable of detecting them. Doesn't mean they aren't there.

We're all waiting for "science" to catch up with those of us experiencing this phenomenon.

Erin, this is your lucky day. Scientists recreate out-of-body experience - CNN.com
Science has been able to induce people to have these so called "OBEs". It already catched up with you advanced people that experience this phenomenon. And, not surprisingly to me, the result is always the same. A trick played by our minds.

It's not the first time that as soon as science "catches up" with unexplainable phenomenons, it dismitifies it. The one example that comes to my mind is the epileptic, in the times of Jesus, whom the bible told us was "possessed by demons".

I'm sure, Erin, you can come up with some more examples of phenomenons that are "too advanced" for science to catch up with. Of course, just because science hasn't been able to dismistify or test or measure these phenomenons, doesn't mean that they are real (neither that they're unreal, but until now, every single phenomenon that science "catched up" with, has been dismistified).


I would like to know about those experiments that Erin said to have happened, if someone who actually studied OBEs, before believing it without any proof, could share some links with me about successful experiments, i'd enjoy that.


I also would like to know why no "astral traveller" (at least they have a nice name) has yet been able to claim Randi's 1 Million Challenge (James Randi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). As cdn2wheeler said, it's easy to prove it, just make the experiment that cdn2wheeler suggested, and no scientist and no James Randi could deny it. Something so simple, but appearently complicated to the so called "paranormals".

[Erin Pavlina]

I've read the studies that claim they can induce an out of body experience, several times. From what I've read, the experiences people have under this inducement are not the same as the experiences of people who actually have had out of body experiences. It boggles my mind actually. When I read what people have experienced under the induced OBE it is not remotely the same as what I have experienced.

What they really need to do is induce these experiences in people who claim to have had them before so that a comparison might be made. As far as I'm aware, the people in the study are not claiming they can astral project. It's not a valid test. It is interesting though. I would willingly submit to having an OBE induced in me. If I felt the same way during the induction as I have during astral projection I would be very willing to agree that it's possible that OBE's are a trick of the mind. But until that happens, I stand by my experiences, as I'm sure other experiencers will stand by theirs.

[cdn2wheeler]

Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina

I would willingly submit to having an OBE induced in me. If I felt the same way during the induction as I have during astral projection I would be very willing to agree that it's possible that OBE's are a trick of the mind. But until that happens, I stand by my experiences, as I'm sure other experiencers will stand by theirs.

Erin, as much as I respect what you stand for, you're talking through your hat here.

First of all, you wouldn't need to submit to having an OBE induced, because apparently you can do that on your own without outside influence.

But more importantly, since you already have this ability to astral project, you could easily arrange an experiment similar to the one I described above and prove conclusively that, at least in your specific case, your astral abilities are real and true.

A repeated, verified experiment like this could turn science on its proverbial head, and create that long sought-after bridge between the "normal" and the "supernatural." Your name could go down in history as the first confirmed and unequivocal link between worlds. There's probably money to be made in the process too.

[The David]

How would they know that she was out of body?

[Rosie]

"I also would like to know why no "astral traveller" (at least they have a nice name) has yet been able to claim Randi's 1 Million Challenge (James Randi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)."

I would like to know the same thing. Howcome you haven't tried this Erin?

[Erin Pavlina]

We've discussed Randi a lot in another thread. You can read through it for more information on that. Randi isn't offering the 1 million dollar challenge to random people anymore. He picks who he wants to test and goes after them. I'm not popular enough to be on his radar.

"First of all, you wouldn't need to submit to having an OBE induced, because apparently you can do that on your own without outside influence." I was speaking to the point that the investigators in that study should not be testing random people, they should be testing people who have had OBEs. Of course I wouldn't need an OBE to be induced.

Astral projection and out of body experiences are not as easily controlled as you might imagine. it's not a matter of leaving your body and going to some prearranged place. If you're sincerely interested in understanding more about astral projection, this is a free ebook that is very accurate in its descriptions of astral projection and the limitations of it:

Out of Body Experiences: Keywords: OOBE, Astral Projection

There are a lot of people out there working with unbiased scientists to prove paranormal phenomenon. If you wanted to, I'm sure you could easily find them with a google search.

[Rosie]

I'll check it out

[Sam988]

Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina

If you're sincerely interested in understanding more about astral projection, this is a free ebook that is very accurate in its descriptions of astral projection and the limitations of it:

Out of Body Experiences: Keywords: OOBE, Astral Projection

I'll check it out. I'm curious, because i'm sure someone as smart as you, Erin, wouldn't fall for any simple trick that the mind plays on us. So either OBEs are real, or our mind is very extraordinary in creating these experiences.

[Dive Bomb]

Originally Posted by The David

How would they know that she was out of body?

Good question, I didn't read anything about a heat sensor or something to detect that there was an out of body presence. I don't see how this study proves OBE's are just an illusion of the mind. If anything, it shows that our minds are capable of more then we know, especially when it comes to esoteric matters like this.

I think the mind only plays a tool in separating both of our bodies. With electric stimulation, I guess it is possible to manipulate it externally but the study shoul go more in depth.

[cdn2wheeler]

Here's the page with Randi's Million Dollar Challenge information: Million Dollar Challenge Application

Not sure when you saw this document originally, but according to the page here, some data has changed as of April '07.

Nowhere in the document, at least as far as I saw, specifies that the Randi foundation will only study certain people for certain phenomena based on their popularity.

Erin, even if you're not interested in the million dollar prize, then take the test, pass it and give the million bucks to your favourite charity. That way, everybody wins. Randi and his crew will finally have some sort of proof of paranormal activity under properly controlled conditions, your favourite charity will have a million-dollar windfall for, say, a home for abused women or children rescued from slavery in South America or Africa or the fight against AIDS... the list is endless... and you will be the one whose name goes down in the history books as proving, once and for all, that there actually is something to this paranormal thing.

Are those reasons not enough to try?

[The David]

Originally Posted by cdn2wheeler

Are those reasons not enough to try?

She may not want to be ridiculed for nothing.

[Erin Pavlina]

Cdn2Wheeler,

I've made all the comments I"m going to make about the Randi challenge on the Randi challenge thread. Go search for it in the archives. If I were to do any challenge, however, it would be in the area of psychic/medium skills. Astral projection is not really my thing nowadays. My days of astral vampire slaying are long gone. My focus now is on helping others, empowering them to learn how to connect with their own intuition, guides, higher self, etc. I spend more time connecting with the deceased than being out of body.

All I really wanted to say, getting back to the initial proof of astral projection thing, is that it's really hard to prove something that is very subjective.

Take dreaming for example. How do we actually know anyone has dreams? Just because a lot of people report them doesn't mean they are really happening. Could just be a trick of the mind or a false memory or something. Sure, we can detect stages of sleep and different brain waves during sleep but has anyone been able to view someone's dream while they are having it? Imagine trying to prove you had dreams. In order to do that, scientists would have to plug into our brains and put what we are experiencing on a big screen somewhere so we could all see this so called dream.

Yet so many people have dreams. If anyone were to tell me I had to prove that I had dreams (not just REM sleep) but actual video images that play in my head while i"m asleep, I'm not sure I could prove that. Nor would I spend much of my time trying. It's not my life's work to prove things like astral projection or lucid dreams, etc.

There's that saying...

To those who believe no proof is necessary
To those who do not believe, no proof is possible.

My advice to everyone is to experience it on your own. If you want to know more about astral projection, study it and try it. If you don't believe in it, move on and leave the people who are experiencing it alone. You won't be able to change their minds any more than they can change yours.

[Sam988]

Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina

To those who do not believe, no proof is possible.

I disagree. There were many things that i didn't believe to be true and after i saw some proofs (or the lack of proofs), i couldn't help but change my beliefs, and that's what i did numerous times on numerous subjects.

[cdn2wheeler]

Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina

To those who believe no proof is necessary
To those who do not believe, no proof is possible.

Erin, I respectfully disagree.

If I were to make a claim that, for instance, I could lift 1,000 pounds with one arm but refused to demonstrate that in front of people in a controlled environment and made excuses about why I couldn't do so, you could be forgiven for finding my claim a bit incredulous.

But forget the Randi challenge. Yes, he's pompous and arrogant and maybe that puts you off. (It sure puts me off too, but that's another story altogether.) Develop your own useful, unbiased experiment, properly controlled and witnessed by legitimate researchers and statisticians.

Not for me. Forget about me, it's got nothing to do with me. Do it for yourself, and the legion of people that look up to you.

If you find that your psychic/medium skills can be quantified in a controlled, legitimate environment, that's tremendously good news!

If you find that maybe your psychic/medium skills have more to do with other people's interpretations of your readings, that's good news too... because it goes to the heart of how we make sense of our world as human beings.

Either way, you win, and so do those that look up to you.

[Dive Bomb]

Originally Posted by cdn2wheeler

Nowhere in the document, at least as far as I saw, specifies that the Randi foundation will only study certain people for certain phenomena based on their popularity.

I'll help you out.

Read rule #12. It states that the person must satisfy two conditions. One is to have a media presence, and other is to have an academic sign a document stating they have witnessed your power.

Having a media presence means you have a degree of popularity, and not everybody can have an academic witness there power too.

[Mr.Mustache]

Originally Posted by Sam988

Erin, this is your lucky day. Scientists recreate out-of-body experience - CNN.com
Science has been able to induce people to have these so called "OBEs". It already catched up with you advanced people that experience this phenomenon. And, not surprisingly to me, the result is always the same. A trick played by our minds.

It's not the first time that as soon as science "catches up" with unexplainable phenomenons, it dismitifies it. The one example that comes to my mind is the epileptic, in the times of Jesus, whom the bible told us was "possessed by demons".

I'm sure, Erin, you can come up with some more examples of phenomenons that are "too advanced" for science to catch up with. Of course, just because science hasn't been able to dismistify or test or measure these phenomenons, doesn't mean that they are real (neither that they're unreal, but until now, every single phenomenon that science "catched up" with, has been dismistified).


I would like to know about those experiments that Erin said to have happened, if someone who actually studied OBEs, before believing it without any proof, could share some links with me about successful experiments, i'd enjoy that.


I also would like to know why no "astral traveller" (at least they have a nice name) has yet been able to claim Randi's 1 Million Challenge (James Randi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). As cdn2wheeler said, it's easy to prove it, just make the experiment that cdn2wheeler suggested, and no scientist and no James Randi could deny it. Something so simple, but appearently complicated to the so called "paranormals".

The "recreation of the OBE" wasn't a complete recreation. The illusion was obvious to the people who took part. This is not so in reported OBEs. The effects were simply a mild feeling of being disembodied. OBErs report seeing their bodies, experiencing a "second" body and a strong awareness of being separate from their bodies. Also, people have had OBEs and NDEs in which they've seen things they could not have seen were it "created in the brain". OBEs are powerful experiences that change peoples lives.

This "recreation" of the experience is something that skeptics will of course jump on as an explaination. Thats not science. Science opines while withholding conclusive judgment. I would also like to note that the techniques used in that experiment were a lot like the usual OBE techniques so its not surprising that they had somewhat similar sensations.

About James Randi: his contest is a scam. Nuff' said. It has nothing to do with science.

I also noticed you ignored my previous post in this thread. Maybe you should take a look.

[Mr.Mustache]

Originally Posted by cdn2wheeler

A repeated, verified experiment like this could turn science on its proverbial head, and create that long sought-after bridge between the "normal" and the "supernatural." Your name could go down in history as the first confirmed and unequivocal link between worlds. There's probably money to be made in the process too.

Not true. There have been many ESP experiments that show evidence that such phenomena exists. Examples: The Ganzfeild Experiment, Clairvoyant Dream experiments, Pearce-Pratt experiments, Sense of Being Stared at experiments and others.

These experiments alone show something weird is going. Does mainstream science care? No. It conflicts with there basic assumptions.

So, even if Erin did those experiments and they actually gained recognition (not likely) she and the scientists involved would be harshly criticized. Not lifted up on the shoulders of objective scientific research.

[VetTechJess]

Originally Posted by Sam988

It's not the first time that as soon as science "catches up" with unexplainable phenomenons, it dismitifies it. The one example that comes to my mind is the epileptic, in the times of Jesus, whom the bible told us was "possessed by demons".

well Hell that must mean I am possessed by demons!!! (I have petit mal epilepsy since 1999)...

Its nothing that a good Excorcist called Depakote 250 mg twice per day won't cure.....

BTW that exorcist is made by Abbott Laboratories!!!!!

[VetTechJess]

Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina

We've discussed Randi a lot in another thread. You can read through it for more information on that. Randi isn't offering the 1 million dollar challenge to random people anymore. He picks who he wants to test and goes after them. I'm not popular enough to be on his radar.

"First of all, you wouldn't need to submit to having an OBE induced, because apparently you can do that on your own without outside influence." I was speaking to the point that the investigators in that study should not be testing random people, they should be testing people who have had OBEs. Of course I wouldn't need an OBE to be induced.

Astral projection and out of body experiences are not as easily controlled as you might imagine. it's not a matter of leaving your body and going to some prearranged place. If you're sincerely interested in understanding more about astral projection, this is a free ebook that is very accurate in its descriptions of astral projection and the limitations of it:

Out of Body Experiences: Keywords: OOBE, Astral Projection

There are a lot of people out there working with unbiased scientists to prove paranormal phenomenon. If you wanted to, I'm sure you could easily find them with a google search.

I HAVE THAT BOOK!!! ITS AN EXCELLENT READ!!! ALSO RECOMMENDED ARE WILLIAM BUHLMANS ADVENTURES BEYOND THE BODY HOW TO EXPERIENCE OUT OF BODY TRAVEL, SOUL TRAVELER BY DR ALBERT TAYLOR, AND JOURNEYS OUT OF THE BODY BY ROBERT MONROE!!!

sorry about the caps but those books alone get me really excited about the subject.

[Mr.Mustache]

I have to admit to reading Peterson's, Buhlman's and Monroe's books. That doesn't mean I believe everything they wrote automatically. They were just really interesting. I liked Buhlman's the most.

[VetTechJess]

Originally Posted by Mr.Mustache

I have to admit to reading Peterson's, Buhlman's and Monroe's books. That doesn't mean I believe everything they wrote automatically. They were just really interesting. I liked Buhlman's the most.

it gets even more interesting and exciting when you actually experience what they talk about in their books firsthand for yourself when you try the techniques mentioned in their books!!! :-)