Pesky Logic (Blog)

[Erin Pavlina]

Use this thread to discuss the following entry from Erin Pavlina's blog:

Pesky Logic

[Calculusaurus]

There were at least a dozen incidences that I could point to during that 30 day intuition binge where listening to my intuition instead of my logic was the right thing to do.

I'd be interested in hearing more of these cases.

It was a very interesting post.

Logic and intuition don't feel entirely disparate for me. Maybe someday

[Bitsy]

How do you distinguish the difference between logic and intuition, and then either one of those that has been tainted by emotion?

[Rose of Cairo]

Thanks a lot Erin, that's what I needed!

But how do I recognize my intuition?? It happens often that I have two different feelings, and I would listen to my intuition without a second of hesitation, if I only knew which one it is... Both feelings feel too similar! So I wonder which one is intuition and end up so confused that I just do something - and most of the time I make exactly the wrong choice. But when I think "ok, this is what I would have chosen now, so it's probably the wrong one, thus I will choose the other one!", this other is the wrong one too....

[Mew3692002]

I can agree with that one! My intuition has helped me sooo much since I started to listen to it, but I don't know what would have happened if I didn't take its advice, good trade off though. I can relate to strong feelings of intuition (like this person will be bad for you), which as it turns out, was the strongest feeling of intuition I ever had (and it was right and I did listen to it thank goodness! ).

[Jeff Lilly]

Your post was so well-timed!

Just Friday, I had a very specific intuition (that I should gingerly get out from underneath my sleeping, sick 3-year-old because the Jehovah's Witnesses were going to come ring the doorbell), which I argued myself out of believing (they only come every couple of months; why should it be during this nap! Besides, she is so beautiful to watch, just sleeping there...). And half an hour later, the doorbell rings (multiple times), and it was the Jehovah's Witnesses!!! Of course, I was not able to sneak out of bed without waking her up--she was grumpy for hours afterwards.

I don't recall having an episode of intuition-versus-logic that was that clear-cut before.

But I did manage to notice the difference between the two arguers in my head. The intuition was just a pure, nonjudgemental statement of fact. The logic was snide, and defensive in tone--there were many reasons given why I should in fact ignore my feeling about the forthcoming interruption. It was frenzied. The intuitive side never defended itself other than to calmly repeat the original statement.

At the time I did not have labels for these two arguing personas, but now I do, thanks to Erin's post! I hope my story helps others to figure out which is which when intuition battles logic in our heads.

--Jeff's wife, Emily

[Erin Pavlina]

Yes exactly. When it's my intuition it speaks calmly and succintly. It tells me what to do but never why. It's like having a little imp that has scampered on ahead and can see waht's coming and it comes back and says, "Turn left. Go this way, not that way." And I just have to trust that it knows what it's doing.

But logic, yeah logic, it gets defensive and pushy and will tell me all the reasons why I shouldn't listen to intuition.

[Bitsy]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lilly

I don't recall having an episode of intuition-versus-logic that was that clear-cut before.

But I did manage to notice the difference between the two arguers in my head. The intuition was just a pure, nonjudgemental statement of fact. The logic was snide, and defensive in tone--there were many reasons given why I should in fact ignore my feeling about the forthcoming interruption. It was frenzied. The intuitive side never defended itself other than to calmly repeat the original statement.
--Jeff's wife, Emily

Thanks, this and Erin's clarification helped. Now just to pay attention...

I wonder though, I have such "intuitions" about people almost all the time too, but by that description, I don't really know if it's intuition or something else. The easiest and clearest example I can think of is once when I went to a friend's home and there I saw the guy she was dating--I had only heard about him, but there he was in her living room. When I saw him across the room, I was shocked and I felt he was creepy and I neither needed to get closer to see him at a closer distance, nor did I want to. I thought if I passed him on the sidewalk, I would leave a 10-foot distance between us. After he left I asked her if he was an alcoholic or something and told her I got a bad feeling from him. In the end, it turned out that he beat her (he wasn't an alcoholic). This was not an "intuition" without emotion, I felt a fear of him when I looked at him, it wasn't just some pure and non-judgmental voice in my head telling me something, on the contrary, this is a very judgmental feeling, isn't it? What is it, then, if the voice of intuition is not judgmental?

P.S. Btw, when I see those things about people, despite the fact that what I see is nearly always right (the cases in which it is verified), I don't tell anyone anymore what I see, because they think I am racist, sexist, prejudiced...people just argue with me and think I'm mean or stupid for saying things about people I don't really know...and even ones I know more or less. "You can never know a person just from looking at them." and "You can't judge a book by its cover." etc.

It's a very politically incorrect thing to do, no matter what skin color, nationality, gender or religion the person in question is. Whatever category they fit into, that is the group of people whom I have wronged.

[Erin Pavlina]

Bitsy, you were getting the gut feeling, not hearing the voice in the head. The gut feeling doesn't speak (obviously). It just sends a feeling of unease through your body. Like I mentioned in the article, you can feel it both ways (voice in your head or gut feeling).

[Rose of Cairo]

Erin, sorry, I still don't get it
When I have two different (or contradictory) gut feelings, how do I know which one is intuition and which one is logic? I don't hear or see anything, I'm a person who feels. When I consciously think I have words in my head, but I don't hear. Often I have no words in my head at all, just feelings, or impulses to move in a direction or in a special way. But often two of them... It's not one gut feeling and one voice in the head, it's two feelings. Has anyone an idea how I can know which one to listen to...?

[Erin Pavlina]

You're saying you get two contradictory gut feelings? Like, "Wow, that's the man I'm going to marry!" and "That guy would rape me if I was alone with him."

Do your gut feelings ever manifest as true? And if so, do you detect a pattern?

[Rose of Cairo]

About people most of the time I have precise and unambiguous gut feelings that manifest to be true afterwards, even if totally irrational at the first sight. But my feeling is not about how trustworthy or dangerous they are. It's more about how healthy / happy they generally are, which problems they have and how they do feel right now. I always trust these feelings.

The problem is about situations where I have to decide what to do. Like you taking the freeway or surface streets. For example I am sitting in my room and have just finished something. Now I have two impulses: one physical impulse is to stand up and I feel as if I am sitting on my bike. At the same time I have an impulse of turning to the monitor and I feel the keyboard under my hands. So I don't know what to do. You can interpret it as "intuition says, jump on your bike immediately, and logic says work on your computer because you have a lot to do". And you can interpret it as "intuition says stay at the computer and logic says go out and bike because you want to be fit and you know you need to move a lot and so on". As I don't hear any words it's difficult to know which impulse is what. In your example, I would have one impulse towards the freeway and one towards the surface streets, so I wouldn't know what to do, and seeing the traffic jam I would decide to take the surface streets just like you did.

I'm afraid of not listening enough to my intuition for that reason and the universe having a hard time guiding me...

[MsQ]

Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina

When it's my intuition it speaks calmly and succintly.

I usually follow my intuition when it comes to people and then logic when it comes to things like business or planning.

I haven't kept score, though! I rarely get a "clear voice" type of intuition usually I just get a bad or good feeling about someone. However, just the other day, as I was beginning to wake up (it was probably almost lucid dreaming as I became aware that I was waking up but wasn't quite awake yet) I heard a voice in my head say, "He is not the one."

Very clear. Just those words. I became alert right away and thought...dang!

I've been sending out the intention to meet the man of my dreams and have been getting those "alpha reflections" I think Steve P calls them. That is, I've been meeting more men who match up to what I want. I'm using online dating and this guy (who "is not the one!") had emailed me. He seemed quite the match (if not my usual physical "type") but everything else just well, beamed about him. Big smile, joyous look, positive. In case you're wondering about his physical type, his photos show a very athletic build - bigger upper body, biceps. Not just buff but muscular.

Anyway, I'm thinking, well, not quite the lean look I prefer but what a shining personality is coming through! Then I get the "He's not the one" message.

Based on what I am reading here, I should just forget it. I have had those logical "Yes/No" type of internal arguments ("But he's so nice!", "He's not your type.", "You've dated all sorts of types."..blah, blah) but this clear voice was a new one on me.

Now, my logic is saying, "But it's just a date..what harm is there to learn more?"

This is where it gets a bit confusing. My logic is ALSO saying (or maybe it's intuition), "Well, intuition is saying 'He's not the one' so why bother?"

But logic is also saying, "Maybe it's fear and not intuition speaking.."

Arrrgh. However, I do admit my gut is saying, "Fuhgettaboutit. Pointless to continue the process."

I really dislike internal "girl talk!"

I'm curious about what you all think about this. I am tending towards fuhgettaboutit myself.

[Rose of Cairo]

Originally Posted by MsQ

But logic is also saying, "Maybe it's fear and not intuition speaking.."

Yes!! The same for me too...

I want to face my fears without fail, so when I get an impulse to leave or not to go into a situation in which I feel uncomfortable, I often think something like "ah, it's just fear speaking! let's go/stay all the same". How do I know when it's fear and when it's intuition..?

MsQ, I guess we just think too much

edit: btw, did you forget about this guy or date him? curious...

[MsQ]

Originally Posted by Rose of Cairo

btw, did you forget about this guy or date him? curious...

I fuhgottabout him! I felt a bit rude since I first said I was interested and then he sent me more info and then I didn't reply.

I've been on the receiving end of this type of thing as well, where I email someone and he responds favorably and then...nothing. I don't like to do this to people but it's a bit of the name of the online dating game.

Now that it's over, it does feel right.

[Foolish1]

Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina

Use this thread to discuss the following entry from Erin Pavlina's blog:

Pesky Logic

I think we should be careful: This is not a scientific or controlled study, what would have happened if you took the back roads and got their early?

Our intuition is a GUIDE and it can be wrong just as much as it is right, for instance sometimes I feel I should intuitively ask a person straight out to have sex with me, but that doesn't mean it's RIGHT.

Our logic circuits would work properly if they had enough information to make a correct judgment, some decisions are very complex and we have limited resources and time available to think things through.

There's a difference between logic, understanding, time constrained thinking, and learned pessimism.

[Rani]

Oh I loved that blog post Erin! Your story about the atm made me laugh because the same thing happened to me last week.

I long ago realised that little reminder (like "go down that aisle in the supermarket"!) was worth listening to. Sometimes it makes me laugh how seemingly trivial it can be, but its like a little secret compass that nudges me in the right direction.

It even happens to me when I'm adding salt to dishes when cooking (always sounds like my grandma) "THAT'S ENOUGH!" And when I pay attention, its always seasoned perfectly...

Gotta love it!

[Red Willow]

This is really so true! Thanks Erin.

This happened to me at a party a couple months ago. My friend and I began chatting with a pregnant woman who neither of us had ever met before. My friend asked her if this was her first and she replied "no." She said this totally neutrally, but I got this feeling that this woman doesn't have any children. Still, we were making conversation, and the usual banter would require someone ask, "oh, how old are your other children?" My intuition said "just drop it, change the subject." But logic said, "Jeez, just make small talk, will ya?"

So I asked her about her other kids. And I was so NOT surprised when she told me her daughter had died. I stuck my foot in my mouth and totally vowed to listen to my intuition next time.

[Rose of Cairo]

Now I got it!

I have no words but physical impulses so it was difficult for me to know which one is intuition and which one logic. But I noticed that what Erin and Emily said about it (one is calm and succint, the other one pushy and argumentative) can be applied to my impulses too. One is a soft pulling ("come this way."), the other one is more a nervous pushing ("move immediately in this direction, or you will miss something important"). I decided the latter is logic and the former intuition. Thus, I will follow the soft pulling and ignore the nervous pushing. I'm looking forward to seeing if it's better this way!

Thank you very much!

[skimmy]

I had a very clear example of logic vs. intuition happen to me these past couple of months.

I started a temp assignment late October of 2007, and I was told this assignment would involve heavy payroll assistance, which perked my ears since I wanted to get into accounting. Once I got there, I was told I would be the operations administrative assistant, and I felt the first *plunk* in my gut. Another admin job?? I had enough of those. Well, I decided to make the best of it and do the job they hired me for. After a week, I started getting into it, and found it did involved a lot of payroll duties, so I was satisfied for the time being.

Then the girl who I was temping for came back, but instead of ending my assignment, they told me to stay around because they loved my work and "in case she left for another job." *Plunk* number two. They were working on creating a position for me, which logically should make anyone excited, but I wasn't really jumping for joy. They told me about a project they wanted me to head up, which they said would involve some accounts payable work but to me it sounded more like cleaning up someone else's mess, so that was another *plunk*. I started looking for another temp assignment. A couple of weeks later, I got a phone call from a different temp agency and they said they had a company that wanted me to start the following monday, working directly for the accounting department, and starting at a higher pay rate. I got excited, and told her I'd get back to her.

I wanted to compare my options, so I went to talk to the Director of Finance about my future at the company. I told her about the other company's offer, and she tried to talk me out of it. She gave some compelling logic for staying.

"What if I told you that tomorrow, you'll report to me and be considered part of the accounting department?" Logically appealing.

I told her the project they wanted me to work on wasn't that appealing because of the "cleaning up" part.

"What if I got in a file clerk to organize those files, then all you'd have to do is see how the process flows now and make your recommendations for better efficiency?" Again, logically appealing.

Other logically appealing details she told me was that under her, I'd get a broad range of accounting experience and she also has connections in the CPA licensing world and she could sort of "mentor" me in my accounting goals. All very appealing. Logically.

But when I got home, I couldn't shake the feeling in my gut that I needed to get out of that company. I spent an entire 24 hours thinking and mulling this over. I weighed the pros and cons of staying vs. leaving, and for all the logical reasons I could come up with to stay, my gut kept sinking at the thought of staying. I just could not work up any excitement at the prospect of going back to that company. All I got was a feeling of dread. So, I told them I decided to accept the other offer. They understood and wished me the best of luck.

Fast forward to Monday at my new temp assignment: Already I was being given multiple accounting tasks that were completely new to me, and I felt that I was growing and learning already. The first week I had already learned enough to add a half page to my resume. I'm very happy here and I can already see potential for more learning and growth. I'm convinced I made the right decision, and that was based just on a gut feeling.

[Kaspian]

Skimmy,

As I read through your post, I became more and more convinced that you were going to go with logic. So great to hear you followed your intuition! <cheer>

[Erin Pavlina]

Awesome! Way to listen to the gut.

[Lola]

Yay for Skimmy's intuition!

I'm learning that one of the reasons it's been difficult for me to distinguish my intuitive voice is because it's always been present. It's always been a part of me. When I started consciously learning more about how to listen to and trust my intuition, I started seeking it and couldn't seem to find any new, earth-shattering thing. Well, duh. That's because it's always been here, I just wasn't paying attention.

[eternomi]

It is hard to follow intuition sometimes because the outcomes are not always affirming as to what would or wouldn't have happened if you picked what you didn't pick.

For example, Erin, if you did indeed stay on the highway, would you have known what you dodged? Without that confirmation, would you have felt good about your choice? On the other hand, when you take out the $40 from the ATM by going against your logic and then later seeing that Safe Key lady was going to ask for it anyway, the validity of your intuition is confirmed and logic is put to rest.

Not taking a path and not knowing how it would have turned out is the biggest obstacle in the practice of intuition following.

[Erin Pavlina]

This happened to me recently. I wanted to go to the lab to pick up some test results one morning. But my intuition said, "Don't do it. It's not a good time." I heard it loud and clear and even acknowledged that it was probably right. But logically it seemed like no biggie. It usually only takes 10 minutes to pick up my lab results. But I trusted my intuition and knew it was right. However, I wanted to know how it was right, or in what way. So I went anyway.

I walked in the door to the lab and it was overflowing with people. So many people that some didn't even have a chair. Probalby 40 people in there. Usually there is 2-5 people. I realized then that it was after a 3 day weekend and early morning so people were there to get a fasting blood test. I went to the lady at the counter and asked how long it would take to just pick up results and she said it would be at least an hour if not longer because they were so busy that no one would have time to look in the computer and get them printed out. she told me to come back a different day.

so there you have it. Intuition was right but I went to see why it was right.