Pre-marital sex and religion

[marktb]

I am in a real quandry here folks and need some "advice". My girlfriend of 1 year JUST TOLD ME that she doesn't believe in ANY FORM of sexual contact until marriage. Up until now we engaged in foreplay but didn't have intercourse due to her religious beliefs(after becoming a reborn Christian). I ask her why she was all of sudden feeling this way and she said, "I've been reading things in the Bible". She feels that sexual foreplay will hinder "her walk with God"-as she says it.


I have respected her beliefs and not pushed the issue,partly because of at least we could play around and be close in some manner but now, I am confused. Make no mistake, I do love her very much but feel this isn't fair to me and is sort of emotional abuse. Maybe I am wrong.

Being that I am not that familiar with the Bible or the specific meanings behind the verses, my heart tells me as long as there's a commitment there sex isn't wrong.

Help please. I don't want to lose her but I can't live with masturbation alone.

Mark

[Akashic_Librarian]

It is abuse really...

She is obviously a little delusional...confront her by saying that if commitment is there...then why should it matter if there is sex going on. Sex is natural, its what we are genetically predisposed to do as one of our major modus operandi...

And if you want to get a bit risky...confront her beliefs themselves...I mean the denial of carnal pleasure...why would you do that? because a book tells you? Because some suspect man in the clouds tells you?

If I told her that the Celestial teapot demands she has sex before marriage...would she?

[Angela]

Ahhh, you fell for the old, "I've been reading things in the bible" routine .

Chances are any "reading" she's been doing has been at the behest of a person -- like a religious teacher-type. If that's the case, maybe you could make an appointment with that person and get the straight scoop. If what he says jibes with your beliefs, maybe you can build a relationship on it. If not, you should let her go so she can find someone whose values are a better fit.

If I were you, I would ask her for specific bible references so that I could:
a) see if she's telling the truth
b) see how her mind works in interpreting the bible (because it's likely that that's how her mind will work in dealing with other aspects of her life, including your relationship.) Is she making huge illogical leaps? Is she interpreting literally and inflexibly? Does how she thinks make sense in terms of fitting with your life?
c) open a dialogue that may be mutually beneficial, instead of vague, guarded, and full of bad feelings.

Mark, is it possible that she is trying to manipulate you into proposing marriage? That sounds like the likeliest possibility to me.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Abstaining from sex before marriage is Biblical, so she's not just making it up. While your heart tells you there's nothing wrong with it, it seems hers is beginning to lean in that direction. This is not to say one of you is right or wrong, but everyone has their own beliefs. I don't think it is emotional abuse, though I understand how it can feel that way. I mean, she doesn't seem to be doing this with the intent to hurt you. I could almost equate this with one partner becoming vegan after spending the entire beginning of the relationship eating meat. It comes as a big shock, it means the loss of some things you previously shared in a very fundamental part of life. You can't understand why because to you eating meat is a normal, natural part of life to be enjoyed, not something to restrict yourself from.

Do you plan on marrying her in the future? If you are already to the point where marriage is imminent, then I think the goodwill created by waiting out of respect for her new beliefs will serve the relationship well. On the other hand, if the idea of marriage is the furthest thing from your mind and she is truly committed to this religious choice, I can see things getting very frustrating and hurtful for both of you.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Now that I've seen the other replies, I wanted to add something. I know people have a strong dislike for all the rules and regulations tied to religion, but really we all have some kind of morals and values that guide our everyday lives. Having been on both sides (I have a Promise Ring and a boyfriend I have sex with) I can see both arguments. I don't think that it is really fair to say, "That's riduculous! There is no god anyway, let's get it on."

I for one never used my commitment to abstinence as a ploy to induce marriage proposals. Once I was a little older and began to question a lot of things, I let go of that restriction along with many other things. But, I still think it's a valid choice that should be respected as long as it's truly from the heart and not some kind of game. Just like not eating a cookie before dinner, there is a reason for the rule. It's not like all religious teachings are meant to leech joy from your life. It may seem like some of them are, but there's a practical reason for it.

Where's Matthew? I want to hear what he says.

ETA: I think it's kinda funny because I am kinda getting uppity at people who don't like crazy Christian rules, but those Catholics aren't even allowed to use birth control. Now that's crazy. So, yes, I am a hypocrite! In so many ways!

[Angela]

Originally Posted by marktb

My girlfriend of 1 year JUST TOLD ME that she doesn't believe in ANY FORM of sexual contact until marriage.

Hey there, Aspiring. It is this particular case that sounds like manipulation to me, not the whole "I'm saving it for marriage" across-the-board approach.

The reason it sounds fishy to me is that they've been together for an entire year and suddenly her game plan changes. Sure, it's very possible that she's had some sort of religious epiphany. But wouldn't you share the process of such an important breakthrough with the guy you've been seeing for a year as you are going through it? That would seem to me to be a huge part of your inner life, and she left him completely out of her whole process of working through it, shocking the poor guy with her done-deal decision without ever taking his thoughts or feelings into account. That does not sound like a very spiritual approach to relationship, if you ask me.

But let's say it was a blinding-light, instantaneous epiphany. In that case, wouldn't you tell your lover, "look, here's the realization I've had, here are the readings and discussions that led me to it, here's why I think it will help us to both walk with god. I understand that it's a tremendous change to our relationship; I'm really sorry if this causes you pain. I am really hoping you will work together with me so that we're both satisfied and fulfilled."

Instead, this woman simply unilaterally laid (so to speak!) down the law to Mark: "here's what I believe; deal with it." Like it's completely up to him to solve this problem.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Thank you for your reply. I can see I am jumping to conclusions and getting snarky...I think it may be something I ate.

The reason I didn't take it the way you have is that he said they have not had intercourse because of her religious beliefs. So he already knew she leaned that way. My take on it was that she may have gone a little farther than she intended and is backtracking out of guilt or something. I completely agree she could have handled it better, I guess I just sympathize with her. I think it's one of the most difficult things about being a devout Christian...most people probably agree with Akashic that abstaining is delusional. I think that's a little harsh. Like I said, it's not some arbitrary rule, it has a purpose...at least the way I was taught.

I do think that if she's sincere and he's not into it that they should both look for partners with values more in line with their own.

ETA: It might be hard for me to share it knowing the reaction I would get. I am saying fear is a reason, not an excuse.

[Tuumble]

I had one girlfriend who was saving herself but that didn't seem a problem to me [most of the time ]. I respected that as her wish and as were both virgins at the time it was OK.

Me and my now-wife had our first child five months before we were married and there was some pressure from my side of the family to bring the wedding forward so that our daughter was born in wedlock.

I think that would've been totally hypocritical so we refused. Who would we be fooling?

I remember a very strange discussion with my dad when we talking about names for our girl and I automatically said we were using my surname. He couldn't see why we would as we weren't married but as we were already engaged it would've been silly not to.

[John P]

First off, let me echo what aspiring said in that abstinence before marriage is Biblical. If you would like specific verses I can supply those, but suffice it to say that, according to the Bible, sex outside of marriage = adultery and adultery = sin. Additionally, although there are some gray areas that are up for discussion, it is generally believed by Christians that certain activities that usually lead up to sex are wrong as well, e.g., oral sex, mutual masturbation etc.

That said, I'm surprised by the seemingly automatic assumption that Mark's girlfriend is doing this to abuse or manipulate him in some way. Clearly we don't know all of the details in this situation, but it appears that his GF has made a conscious decision to live more congruently with her values. Shouldn't we support that?

Mark, if you love this girl, then I think you need to honor her beliefs. If it's not a serious relationship, then break up with her so that both of you can find someone more compatible value-wise.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by John P

it appears that his GF has made a conscious decision to live more congruently with her values. Shouldn't we support that?.

Sure, we can support the woman's aim to live congruently with her values. But as I said earlier, she made a unilateral decision that greatly affects Mark without consulting him at all during the process of reaching that decision, and apparently bluntly informed him of the way it's gotta be with no evident concern for his feelings or desires.

Are you saying that traditional "christian" values utterly override the value of being compassionate, caring, and communicative in your romantic relationship?

[absvan]

Originally Posted by Angela

Are you saying that traditional "christian" values utterly override the value of being compassionate, caring, and communicative in your romantic relationship?

I am speaking here from personal experience. People change their beliefs with time. Thats human nature. Sometimes it may not be congruent with what their partner believes. Eg: As Aspiring mentioned the case of one person turning vegan. There have also been cases where one person completely change their life from a materialistic perspective to a spiritual perspective. What do you do in such situations? Its either - or case. In such cases you have to go by what you truly want.

You think she is manipulating and so everything comes across as that way. Some people find spiritual/religious beliefs more important than relationships and vice versa. Its hard to say what is right and wrong. Also if you are talking about relationships, then Mark has to accept her for what she believes if he really wants to be with her. If not as mentioned in other posts, they should break up.

[John P]

Originally Posted by Angela

Sure, we can support the woman's aim to live congruently with her values. But as I said earlier, she made a unilateral decision that greatly affects Mark without consulting him at all during the process of reaching that decision, and apparently bluntly informed him of the way it's gotta be with no evident concern for his feelings or desires.

First off, we don't know how this new situation came about. From Mark's perspective, it certainly seems abrupt and sudden and I don't dispute that at all. From her perspective however, I bet it doesn't seem so sudden. If she's telling the truth and this is not an attempt to manipulate Mark, then I bet she's been thinking about this for some time. Maybe she even feels like she brought this up before and got no response, so she had to just come out and bluntly say what she was thinking. (I know that I am certainly guilty of not really listening to what my wife is saying at times.)

Perhaps my opinion is rooted in having grown up with a Christian background and that I don't see sex as a given in any relationship other than marriage. If you see sex in a year-long relationship as not only normal but expected, then I can see how this would be a much bigger deal. But Mark already knew that she did not want sex before marriage, so I don't see how drawing the lines (of what's ok to do) back a little would be such a big deal. It's totally possible that I'm wrong.

Are you saying that traditional "christian" values utterly override the value of being compassionate, caring, and communicative in your romantic relationship?

Of course not. True Christian values are founded on being compassionate, caring and communicative in all of our relationships. Perhaps she did handle the situation poorly. Maybe she was nervous about bringing the subject up and came across as blunt and insensitive when she didn't mean to be. If she feels for him the way he seems to feel for her though, I don't think she'd be mean and insensitive on purpose.

With all that said though, my point was not to debate whether or not her new belief is genuine or whether she handled the situation well. It was merely to voice my surprise that most people seemed to jump to the conclusion that she was in the wrong simply for sharing her beliefs with her boyfriend. AL said it was "abuse," that she was "obviously a little delusional," and that if Mark pressed her on the subject, then she'd fold because clearly she's just making this up. No one seemed willing to believe that she might actually be sincere about this. That surprised me.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by John P

No one seemed willing to believe that she might actually be sincere about this. That surprised me.

John P, you might be right about any of your points, and it will be interesting to see what Mark has to say about all this.

[John P]

Originally Posted by Angela

... it will be interesting to see what Mark has to say about all this.

Agreed. I hope he responds and lets us know what he's thinking.

[geekchic9]

I'm curious. Where does it say in the Bible that fornication is a sin? Sex between two unmarried people is by definition fornication and not adultery.

[Matthew Shea]

I'm a little late to the ballgame, but here's my take: the girlfriend is conflicted between her religious belief that sex before marriage is wrong and her natural curiosity about sex and her desire to have that first real sexual experience. She was conflicted at the beginning of the relationship, as evidenced by the willingness to engage in foreplay combined with the strict limits on taking it all the way, and she's probably still conflicted now. However someone or something unknown to us, probably a pastor, youth minister or someone at her church, maybe a parent, sibling or friend, recently influenced her and appealed to her conscience/sense of guilt and convinced her that even the foreplay is wrong and that it will inevitably lead to actual sex, as foreplay is designed to do, and is to be avoided. I've seen that same argument extended to kissing, believe it or not, resulting in a friend of ours trying to save his first kiss for his wedding day. (They're broken up now obviously).

As for the question of whether or not the girlfriend is genuine, I have no doubt that she is being genuine, at least in her own mind. Judging by the sudden "no foreplay" decision, though, it's pretty clear that she allowed her moral sensibilities to completely override any compassion for how Mark feels. That was wrong of her to do. I'd say that's mostly a maturity issue, though. After this all plays out, which hopefully will include Mark clearly communicating his feelings about the matter, especially about not being consulted, she'll learn from it.

At this point, the way I see it, Mark needs to confront her about why she made a decision affecting their relationship without consulting him. That's the root of the problem. Relationships can't work when the two people are on a different page regarding decisions that affect the both of them. Now, putting my fortune telling hat on, the first thing she'll say is "Well, I was talking to so-and-so and he/she said that blah blah sex is wrong blah blah avoid anything that will lead to it blah blah" (as she pretty much already has). The right way to come back from that is not to contest it, but redirect back to the original question: "Yes, that's fine, and I fully support you in your beliefs, but this issue affects the both of us and I should have been given some input. If you felt this way, why couldn't we have discussed this a lot sooner?" That'll completely negate the religious argument (which you can NEVER, EVER, EVER possibly hope to win, please trust me), force her to think deeper and focus the conversation back on the relationship (where it belongs).

So that's my $.02. In short, don't debate the religious issue, it's pointless to do so. That's a sensibility that a boyfriend can never hope to appeal to, regardless of how right or wrong he may be. Talk to her about your relationship and keep the conversation focused there.

Aspiring, thanks for the compliment. Reps coming your way!

[The David]

Just reading about this is kind a shift for me, because I was also raised to consider sex a given only in marriage. I've gotten a little more liberal but not extremely so.

[Shamou]

Originally Posted by The David

Just reading about this is kind a shift for me, because I was also raised to consider sex a given only in marriage. I've gotten a little more liberal but not extremely so.

Would you be willing to tie the rest of your life to someone without knowing if you are compatible with that person in the sack...???

As far as I'm concerned... that would be unthinkable...
.

[Bitsy]

Originally Posted by Shamou

Would you be willing to tie the rest of your life to someone without knowing if you are compatible with that person in the sack...???
.

YESSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!

And how can people be accusing this girl of making up premarital sex as a sin in Christianity after more than 2 thousand years and the fact that it exists in all the major religions? Of course it's in the Bible!

"2: For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
3: For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
4: That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
5: Not in the lust of concupiscence..."

- 1 Thessalonians, chapter 4

I have been in a version of the girl's situation and I know the feeling of regret, if that's why she changed her mind. I never changed my mind while I was with the guy, but after it was over, I felt bad, realized he took advantage of my love and affections for him to coax me to let him touch me and for the next guy, I said, he will not touch me unless we are married.

In response to Angela's post:

This is not a "unilateral decision" made by a girl and her boyfriend has no say in what principles she chooses to live by. Compassion for a guy who is suffering from horniness is laughable. Since when does a girl have to ask her boyfriend for permission to enforce life values and principles, or even get his input before she decides to enforce a principle, even if she had been failing to enforce it well prior to that time?

The fact is, if a girl loves her man, he can use that love to coax her to do things that go against her principles, things she feels wrong and bad about doing, things she doesn't really want to do and feels she betrayed herself afterwards. She doesn't want to lose him, she wants to please him, so she does what he wants. When someone loves and trusts you, you can get them to do a lot of things, and many that are against their values.

Why should a girl care about her boyfriend's sexual issues when he has no respect for her or her principles and is using her love for him to get what he wants out of her, which is really just sex? Let him find a girl who will sleep with him, one who thinks like he does, he doesn't need this girl in particular, let her be and let a man who can love her for who she is, including her values, find her.

The situation is black and white - if the man cannot live with the principles and values of his girlfriend, if he even has an ounce of respect for her as a human being, he must break up with her and find a girl who will sleep with him. And likewise if the roles are reversed.

You have to find a partner who shares your values.

[Erki]

Maybe she waited so long because she was afraid(of your possible reaction)?

[Akashic_Librarian]

Bitsy you obivously have serious issues with this. My PM I just sent you should help you identify them, I won't say them publically on the forum though.

And I am guessing your a female, so I will just say this:

Men have feelings too. Sexual desire is different in men, its a more physical thing. Its not so easily controlled. Sex is a far more powerful thing to a man. Don't forget that.

[John P]

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

Bitsy you obivously have serious issues with this. My PM I just sent you should help you identify them, I won't say them publically on the forum though.

I lol'ed. What, because anyone disagreeing with you has issues? Well, I hope you straightened her out.

And I am guessing your a female, so I will just say this:

Men have feelings too. Sexual desire is different in men, its a more physical thing. Its not so easily controlled. Sex is a far more powerful thing to a man. Don't forget that.

So, what are you saying here? That sex is such a powerful drive in men that we shouldn't have to control it? That Mark's GF should give in and have sex with him simply because he wants her to? Ultimately that is what this comes down to. Either we respect this woman's right to choose with whom and when she will have sex, or we don't. Is that really a road that you want to go down?

Would you be willing to tie the rest of your life to someone without knowing if you are compatible with that person in the sack...???

As far as I'm concerned... that would be unthinkable...

Compatibility in marriage is a choice. Just like love in a marriage. At the beginning of a new relationship, you have that "high", that feeling of being in love. That feeling fades. (Psychiatrists have found that it is a remnant of the mating ritual and lasts an average of two years in most relationships.) Once that feeling fades, it is up to you to choose to love your spouse/partner. If your feelings continue past that point, it's because you've chosen to work for that. Shamou, I think you said recently that you've been with your partner for 23 years now? I'm sure that you've seen what I'm talking about.

Sex in marriage is the same way. I'm sure that there are people that are pre-disposed to have good sex with other people, but ultimately good sex comes down to a conscious decision to have good sex.

I would write more but I must get going. Interesting discussion so far =)

[Bitsy]

Originally Posted by John P

I lol'ed. What, because anyone disagreeing with you has issues?

No, he wrote that because I told him in a pm I had "issues", I don't know why he felt the need to put it on here though and also left the topic of his own issues out of his post. You can easily see if a person's issues come out in their posts anyway.

Originally Posted by John P

Well, I hope you straightened her out.

Actually, I was hoping for some help and that's why I wrote to him .

I like what you wrote John P

[Akashic_Librarian]

Sometimes your angels come in the guise of demons.

[Erki]

Originally Posted by Bitsy

Actually, I was hoping for some help and that's why I wrote to him .

You can always PM me, I'd gladly help. Although yes, I'm not so very loud on this forum so people probably don't know as much about me as they do about A_L. But an issue exchange would be interesting - I've grown a bit tired of my own.

[geekchic9]

Originally Posted by Bitsy

YESSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!

And how can people be accusing this girl of making up premarital sex as a sin in Christianity after more than 2 thousand years and the fact that it exists in all the major religions? Of course it's in the Bible!

"2: For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
3: For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
4: That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
5: Not in the lust of concupiscence..."

- 1 Thessalonians, chapter 4

I looked this up in my New American Bible, and it didn't say that. It says "refrain from immorality." I'll type in the rest later, as I have to go to work now. It's interesting how some bibles say "no fornication" and others don't.

[ZHereford]

Originally Posted by geekchic9

It's interesting how some bibles say "no fornication" and others don't.

The Bible is after all a translation of someone's interpretation. There has been disagreement on these two points throughout history so we should take it all with a grain of salt.

There's a big difference in meaning between fornication and immorality.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Bitsy

Compassion for a guy who is suffering from horniness is laughable. Since when does a girl have to ask her boyfriend for permission to enforce life values and principles, or even get his input before she decides to enforce a principle, even if she had been failing to enforce it well prior to that time? ...Why should a girl care about her boyfriend's sexual issues when he has no respect for her or her principles and is using her love for him to get what he wants out of her, which is really just sex?

Why should a woman feel compassion for her man? Why should she care about his issues? Same reason he should do the same for her. Because they've chosen each other, as evidenced by being in a romantic relationship for a year. And aside from that? Because they're both human beings. (I hate "shoulds"; what I mean here is that it works better.)

In this case, I think you have misunderstood Mark -- he seems to really love this girl and wants to make his relationship work with respect and understanding. He does not seem to be pushing her to throw out her principles, rather, he appears to be looking for a way to mesh his with hers. It doesn't appear, though, that she is doing the same for him. Like we were saying, it will be interesting to hear more from Mark. You have really touched something off, Mark!

[Angela]

Don't we have a "Luke" around here?

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Wow, I left work right as the discussion was getting heated up.

Matthew, I always appreciate how you are able to voice the religious side of things much more eloquently than I. I agree with what you've said here very much.

Akashic - Having never been a man, I can't say with 100% certainty that you're wrong, but women have strong physical desires related to sex as well. It can be just as difficult to abstain for women as for men in my opinion. I would imagine this is part of the reason she went as far as she did to begin with.

John P and Angela, you've continued to make some excellent points. I do think that not only is there more to this story, but also that the participants need to learn how to communicate a little better. I know how difficult it can be to talk about some of this stuff.

Shamou - I've heard that arguement many times, but I think that you can feel chemistry without sex. That chemistry seems to be the important factor in good sex along with a willingness of both parties to communicate their preferences and work hard at mutual enjoyment. Practice makes perfect!

Bitsy - Guilt sucks! Do be clear with yourself and any partners about your boundaries, but don't beat yourself up if you don't always stay true to them. If you are looking to God to tell you you are bad, look elsewhere. There is no condemnation.

Phew! Don't know if I got it all, but I am enjoying the discussion.