State, Attitude, Physiology

[Senin]

Is State a product of Attitude and Physiology? Or is Attitude a product of state?

At the very least, state and physiology is affected by physiology. But which comes first? The chicken or the egg?

[Akashic_Librarian]

What do you mean State?

[Shamou]

Originally Posted by Senin

Is State a product of Attitude and Physiology? Or is Attitude a product of state?

At the very least, state and physiology is affected by physiology. But which comes first? The chicken or the egg?

Attitude, feelings and mindset come first... you don't get depressed because you are slouching... but you slouch because you are depressed...

However by intentionally changing your posture, physiology and breathing pattern... you can alter your mindset and feelings...
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[Shamou]

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

What do you mean State?

"State" is the state of mind... you can be in a paralyzing state... a neutral state or an energizing and empowering state... with slights variations of all of the above...
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[tylerlloyd]

Hmm... I have a feeling that depending on a given person's belief system they will give you a different answer. But regardless of which comes first, what do you plan on doing with the knowledge if you were able to find out? Do you have any practical applications for it or is it more of a just because kind of thing?

[Senin]

Well, if one consciously tries to manage their attitude and physiology, that would be a great lead into managing one's state.

[Shamou]

Originally Posted by Senin

Well, if one consciously tries to manage their attitude and physiology, that would be a great lead into managing one's state.

If you want anymore info on managing your state through your physiology... I suggest that you try some books on NLP... and any one of Anthony Robbins' books... "Awaken the Giant Within" or "Unlimited Power..."

It is quite simple and basic stuff...
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[Sam988]

I think that state of mind indeed shapes physiology/posture.

But the other way around, say, physiology/posture shaping our state of mind i think is uber bullsh*t.

[Shamou]

Originally Posted by Sam988

But the other way around, say, physiology/posture shaping our state of mind i think is uber bullsh*t.

Why do you think that...???
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[Sam988]

Originally Posted by Shamou

Why do you think that...???
.

Because i think that mental state creates posture/physiology, and the other way around isn't possible.


Take as example if someone wants to pretend to cry (with tears), they have to really get into bad/sad memories, and even so it takes a lot of practice. But once the person is crying, she can stop it as soon as she wants, she doesnt get depressed by faking a cry, she just stops it whenever she wants and its all normal again (I tried it many times, figured faking to cry was an unseful skill for reasons im not mentioning here ).

When i tried it, i did actually manage to get some tears going after A LOT, LOT of effort and because i had recent bad memories, but i could break off from it as soon as i wanted and be all back to normal and happy. Also, i tried anchoring when i was actually feeling sad for any reason, i always did the same anchor whenever i felt sad, even if it was for watching a sad movie or something, but then when i'm fine and i use the anchor, it has little to no effect.



The point of my post is, i can't see how our posture can influence our mood/mental state. I also experienced with what the NLP guys tell us to do "Smile a big smile and see how you feel" and after smiling a big smile i still feel the same after and while i'm doing it. Same with changing my posture, it doesnt make any difference in my mental state.

[Senin]

Originally Posted by Sam988

I think that state of mind indeed shapes physiology/posture.

But the other way around, say, physiology/posture shaping our state of mind i think is uber bullsh*t.

Physiology, posture, bodily movements absolutely affect state of mind. Ever feel better after a jog? Ever feel better after a good workout? Ever take a walk and "clear out your mind"?

Actually I think it can go either way. A crappy state of mind will effect your physiology. Crappy physiology will lead to a crappy state of mind.

And, that is why, I was wondering what came first-- the chicken or the egg.

[Buddy]

I don't think it's a either/or situation. When Sam says,"Because i think that mental state creates posture/physiology, and the other way around isn't possible" I'm afriad I have to disagree. In yoga there is a word-mudra, it generally means a particular hand posture but can actually mean the way the shape of the body affects us. Stand on one leg with your thumbs in your nose and bark like a dog. Very difficult to be in a negative state of mind even if only during the time your making a fool of yourself. Slouching is a mudra. Sit straight up heald high breathing deeply and your state will change, even if only breifly. Rinse and repeat.

Buddy

[Sam988]

Yeah even if there is an influence in the state of my by the posture, its minor, wont change us enough to be meanful.


Otherwise people that are depressed would all be told to stand straight or "Stand on one leg with your thumbs in your nose and bark like a dog" as Buddy said above and their problemas would disappear; we all know its nearly not that easy. Someone who is sad and changes his posture to a better one wont have his mood changed.

[MadHyeNa]

It is all about congruence.

I will talk about two terms here: state and physiology. Each of them can influence the other one if and only if its intensity is higher, each of them has the same capabilities and power to alter the another one. This is possible because we, as human beings, are always in congruence.

We all act in congruence with our paradigm, belief system, thoughts and physiology. Consciously changing one of these reinforced with a higher intensity than the another (source of our problem), we can ultimately alter the another. Reaching that kind of intensity so that it affects the another one isn't always easy.

Sam988's example about telling depressed people to stand straight wouldn't work and you know why? Because the intensity of that "standing straight" movement does not equals and nor does it overpowers the powerful force of depression, the mental state of depression that dominates your well being and inner attitude.

You could recommend a depressed person to stand straight, and s/he would try to follow your advice religiously but after a relatively short amount of time, s/he would stop doing it and contemplating about the trustworthiness and effectiveness of your advice. Simple as that. Depression as a mental state is very powerful. It requires willpower and determination to overcome it, regardless of the techniques and methods used.

Originally Posted by Sam988

The point of my post is, i can't see how our posture can influence our mood/mental state. I also experienced with what the NLP guys tell us to do "Smile a big smile and see how you feel" and after smiling a big smile i still feel the same after and while i'm doing it. Same with changing my posture, it doesnt make any difference in my mental state.

This is because of our belief system, paradigm. You are absolutely sure that none of them can influence and the another one, and guess what, they won't work for you. This is a self-limiting belief if you want to benefit of using one of these toward your well-being and/or improving the quality of your life.

You need to realize that yes it is possible and all you need to do is raise the intensity of the action you are doing in case of physiology or raise the intensity of your mental state if you want to affect your psysiology. It is absolutely impossible that for you as a human being these techniques could ever fail. They never fail.

A tried and proven techniques fails only if you aren't applying it the way it should be or you are limiting yourself and consciously trying to convince yourself that they don't work, belittleing their effectiveness and ultimately making it almost impossible to achieve the required intensity to make the technique to work. And yes, in this case, it won't work.

Furthermore, let me exemplify the powerfulness of the mental state. Do you believe in visualization techniques? Sit with a bit slouchy posture and close your eyes. Visualize yourself closing a multi-million dollar deal. Shaking hands, signing contracts, feeling all of that. Emerging yourself into that mental imaginary, include all of your 5 senses. Make it clear, bright and vivid. Enlarge the images. Bring them closer, intensify their brightness. Imagine walking out of a Rolls-Royce, giving a speech to tens of thousands of people that in the end are applauding enthusiastically. Anything like this. Open your eyes, is your posture still slouchy? If yes, you either haven't done the visualization process correctly or you still haven't overcame your self-limiting belief.

Another example, changing your mental state just with psysiology. I will be really extreme here, follow along. Think of a cemetary or funeral. If possible emerge yourself in it. At least until the moment when you feel quite sad, that's enough so that your mood has changed. Now, stand up from your chair. Start doing very intense exercising. Jump out because of your happiness. Cheer all around. Do exactly like you'd do if you were to get a phone-call and be informed that you've just won the lottery. Jump all around in the house being marvelously happy. You may do this while listening to your favorite music, works the best with high beats-per-minute genres like hardcore, NuNRG, techno. Yell all around, jump enthusiastically and cheer! Isn't that cool?

Well, trust me, if you've done right this aforementioned exercise, your mental state will be dominated by happiness, joy and cheerfulness, you will have an positive attitude. Yes, you have contrasted your mental states; you have changed your mood from sad to happy. This was possible because of your intensity of the exercises. It wasn't just a simple 'stand still' or 'erect posture' manifesto. Definitely not. That represents for 3 on a scale from 1 to 10. But this jumping all around enthusiastically qualifies around 9 if not 10, methinks.

Originally Posted by Sam988

Yeah even if there is an influence in the state of my by the posture, its minor, wont change us enough to be meanful.

It's minor because the intensity of your "forced posture" barely equals the "degree of your mental state." A depressed, socially shy, awkward guy with social phobia fearing rejection won't "exude bulletproof confidence and charisma" by forcing an erect posture, open body language and relaxed state. Yes, it will definitely help. Up to a certain degree. After that, he will fall back quickly into his mental state because it was reinforced zillions of times already, those pathways are freaking wide, compared to the "forced confident" pathways which barely exist. Get it? Reinforce, reinforce. Raise their intensity. Combine the techniques and create the life you want!

NLP works. Some of its techniques are poorly presented, explained and taught, and people get the vibe that "it's so easy" and then when they try it-- bummer, it does not works. Therefore, quickly classify as a new agey bullshit, marketing gimmick or whatnot. No, it is a science. But practicing NLP to gain effective results isn't as easy as it seems at first. It requires dedication, motivation and hard work. And, of course, an open mind.

I think that we could blame the marketing of NLP for this. They are using all sort of "quick and simple" headlines on advertisements and such, they try to "dumb down" the science as much as possible, ultimately forget about the dedication it requires to make it works. Furthermore, it all sounds so simple and easy that people try without the required knowledge to apply the specific techniques effectively and fail. Ultimately, failures reinforce their beliefs that NLP is a gimmick.

This is the same with VK/D (Visual/Kinesthetic Dissociation). All they say that you need to reverse your bad memories on a relatively high speed and you're cured, even of phobias. Yeah right. Utter bullshit. While I won't deny its effectiveness, yes the technique indeed works and it works amazingly well, but it isn't that easy. Also, you can't be sure that the people are applying that kind of "short guideline" of the technique either.

Same with anchoring. They work extraordinarily well but people usually quit if they fail to install/set up an anchor right now and right here. Rapport techniques? Yeah, amazing. Let's try it. Mirroring the prospect, matching breathing and all of that sort of stuff, bummer, it does not works and I get too overwhelmed and cannot focus over the conversation. I made silly of myself and looked fake. This won't work.

I've said this already but NLP isn't an overnight science. It works. It works amazingly great but it requires practice just like any other skill.

[Buddy]

It won't work forever if you do it once. But continued changing of posture can have a continued change of state. Consider yoga or tai chi.
For instance I have had sciatica for a while and di everything but with no lasting result. I'm know doing the Egoscue Method which is gentle exercise designed to bring the weight bearing joints back into alignment. My body is changing back to its design function, but it takes a while. Heck it took along time for me to get screwed up in the first place.
BTW if you have some physical issues I cannot reccommend highly enough Pete Egoscue's Pain Free.

Buddy

[Shamou]

Originally Posted by Sam988

The point of my post is, i can't see how our posture can influence our mood/mental state. I also experienced with what the NLP guys tell us to do "Smile a big smile and see how you feel" and after smiling a big smile i still feel the same after and while i'm doing it. Same with changing my posture, it doesnt make any difference in my mental state.

My guess is that the results will depend on the state of mind that you are in when you do make the experiment... (changing the state by changing the breathing pattern and body posture or physiology...)

If you are doing the experiment as a skeptic... it probably will not work... however, if you do the procedure as a believer... it will work...

I know that when I walk into my office to meet patients... I must be in a great mental state as if I never had a problem in my life... so, I use the procedure every day... and, no matter what... it never has failed me...
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[Senin]

MadHyeNa,

That was a great post. Right on the mark.

And, you stated so many of the pluses and minuses of NLP.