Can i get a hardball answer to this dilemma please?

[thethinkingboy]

hello there, i just joined yesterday and i love this website! i couldn't go much longer without putting up a post about an issue that has been weighing on my conscience; keep in mind, you are only hearing my side of the argument and i will try to represent only the fact.... i said try

a few months back i was sitting down to lunch with my mother and her boyfriend. they have been "dating" on and off for three years and unlike the rest of my family, i have accepted him and we got along great the whole time. my sister is about to have a son so i brought up the topic and told my mother it was time to quit smoking. he is a chain smoker and drinker (he was drinking wine at the table) and quickly interupted saying that my sister was using the "baby as a weapon" to get what she wants (our mother to quit smoking). anyways, for the first time in three years i told him something wasn't his business and i am talking to my mother. he quickly got out of control and the situation escalated. my mother threw ME out.

i came back that night to get some stuff and he was there again, and made threats and tried to fist fight me. i reacted but resisted in the end. she went out to a bar with him and made her choice very clear to me as i had posed the "him or me" challenge to her and lost.

now it's months later and my mother and i have brushed this issue under the rug until we were supposed to meet for lunch last week. i came to her house to pick her up just as i saw him dropping her off. i was very disappointed to see that she was still dealing with this man, and even more so because she had lied and said she was looking at some real estate. as she came in the house stinking of cigarettes, i lost my appetite and left. we had a falling out on the telephone because of our positions. hers being that her personal life is none of my business. mine being that she is a depressed alcoholic who fake-attemped suicide three months ago and should stay away from people who encourage her to smoke and drink.

obviously, there are many more layers to this story but i digress. the last thing i told her was that i couldn't talk to her and i will call her when i am ready. this was after i gave her the "him or me" challenge again, and again, i lost. i came to the house twice since and both mornings the lights were left on from the night before and no one was home so i know she spent the night with this man. it seems i pushed her in the opposite direction as she is spending more time with him now than ever. needless to say, it has taken quite a pounding on my self esteem, but also of my opinion of her.

what should i do? and, who is right?

[Shamou]

Originally Posted by thethinkingboy

what should i do? and, who is right?

You are 25 years old... time to cut the umbilical cord...

You do not own your mom... and she does not own you... you are now two adults who have to take responsibility for their lives... and should not have to be held accountable to anyone but to yourselves...

If I were you... I would try to be as loving as possible... while keeping my distances... and I would go on with my life... and let her go on with hers...

I do wish you the very best...

PS. In my book... there is no right person and no wrong person in this situation... simply two persons with different points of view...

.

[sadavis00]

Your mother sounds horrible (no offense, sorry). She seems to be a slave to her addictions, cigarettes and whatever love this guy seems to be giving her. Choosing him over you indicates that she does not understand the value of the deep, unconditional bonds that form a family. Now, if you are trying to do what seems best for your mother, I would try to be more diplomatic from now on. Rebuild the relationship with your mother, but be sure to also keep on the good side of her guy. Meanwhile, keep trying to break her addictions, continuing to gently prod her. You may not succeed, but at least you won't feel guilty for not doing anything.

[Dharma]

The story you gave is not about your mother, her BF, or your sister. It is about you.

Here, I rewrote it like you are talking to yourself:

I was sitting with myself and the reflections of my mother/feminine and father/masculine aspects of myself. I told me I was bringing new life into me (baby) and I want the mother aspect of me to let go of my addiction to denial (cigarettes).

When I try to change my habits I have to put one part of myself against the other. I believe I cannot just choose to change myself; I need to have a ‘reason’ to change (baby) and prepare to battle with myself over the reasons. I fear the old habits I have and my addiction to denial will spoil the new life that is moving within me. I feel I must get rid of the denial first, before attempting to bring in the new part of self (baby).

When I have this battle within myself I cannot stay present (I throw myself out). I see the world in absolutes and polarities. It’s my way or the highway. This is how I deal with myself inside.

Much of the wall I put up against my feminine side has faded away now and I can talk with her again. I was sad to see my mother/father relationship has not changed. I have an expectation that it will change. My emotional body is depressed and is crying for attention (mother’s fake suicide) but I continue to live as I have before and actually do things to encourage the game of denial I play.

I told my feminine/emotional body I wasn’t going to talk until I am ready. When I talk to myself in polarity (him or me) I always get denial back (I lose).

-comments-

Ok, so you’re trying to bring something new into your life, into your consciousness (and what it is might be totally unconscious right now). You want to make a change. Since your mother is the main focus, the story is about the feminine aspect of yourself; and to me it feels specifically like your emotional body. People are reconnecting to their emotional bodies a lot these days and it causes a lot of suffering. Especially when you approach it with logic.

If you’re going to change an angry woman’s mind, who’s already thrown you out multiple times, you don’t reason with her, especially if you’ve already been down that road before. (Logic is masculine BTW) You appeal to her feelings. More on this later.

When you think of personal change you think of battle. How about associating change with ease? “Change is easy for me. I don’t need to fight with myself now.”

You also think that all your personal s**t has to be cleared up before you make the change. That’s why I wrote: I feel I must get rid of the denial first, before attempting to bring in the new part of self (baby). You can be dysfunctional and functional at the same time. They are not in polarity even though they seem to be. Trust me, they’re not. You are stalling the change you want to make in yourself by thinking you have to have things in a certain way first. Just do it! It will all work out.

Stop seeing the world in absolutes, black and white, my way or the highway. Catch yourself doing that and say, “wait maybe there’s other options here I’m not seeing”, and disconnect you mind from the problem, give it some space and see what happens.

Ok, you need to get the mother aspect moving. That means emotional body. Find what opens you up emotionally and do that. For me it’s being in nature and shutting up the mind for a bit. Watching films that inspire me. Laughing. Being around young people. Playing my guitar. Singing. Photography. Actually resting when I feel tired. Getting a massage, getting nurtured.

Try to meditate and pull the breath way down into the belly. See if you can get the belly vibrating with each breath. Find what works for you.

I hope this gets you started in understanding the reflection that you have given yourself through this situation.

[thethinkingboy]

these are the harball responses i was scared of. i took some comfort in feeling "right" in the situation but that is an over-simplification. as for the umbilical cord, it's cut. believe me, you will be hard pressed to find a more independent 25 year old man in almost every respect. but this is a person whom with i have been good friends for the last 5 years. i walked her through her divorce, her first house, her bouts with depression and so much more. i feel like she is my child making silly decisions and i am powerless over her. my family is extremely disfunctional and abusive to each other and to outsiders and i was the first to "get-out" in a manner of speaking; therefore i have no allies there to help me intervene. frankly, a large part of me wants to move on and forget them all but there is a heavy sense of guilt that comes with that. last time i just let things sit, she over did it on the pills and alcohol and the police had to call me. this is why the issue got swept under the rug the first time. i know her personal life is her business but if she is going to be with an abusive chain smoking alcoholic against my strongest warnings, then when she makes an attempt on her life, the police should be calling him, not me; otherwise it becomes my business. it's like this jerk is getting a free ride and i am stuck cleaning the mess. i try to be as loving as possible but i can't pretend i don't see the purple elephant in the middle of the room. what kind of a b.s. relationship is that to have with someone close? it's easier not to be judgemental when it's a friend or stranger, but how can you not judge the actions taken by a close loved one, just out of bare concern for their wellfare? at what point to you put up all of the lessons they teach in therapy to make yourself happier in exchange for the tough love a close person may need to avoid self-destruction?

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

The truth is, there is nothing you can do to fix this for her...nothing you can do to change her behavior. She has to do that for herself and it will only happen when she is good and ready. When she's had enough. Some people take more crap than others to see the light.

You can be there for her if and when she wants to make a change, to help in any way possible. But until that time, you have to focus on yourself. I don't mean that in a selfish way like you don't care about her or want her to get better. The only person you can change is you.

I think this is the point...right now you are just spinning your wheels and going nowhere.

[Ree]

ThinkingBoy, it is time to move on. You're the enabler in this relationship. Your mom messes up and you come along and pick up the pieces. If what you say is true, that you walked her through her divorce, first house, etc., then it's way past time she grows up. And it's time for you to be having the carefree, happy days that 20 somethings are supposed to have that make great memories when you're older and carrying the weight of the world

Someone told me this about teenagers and I think it's applicable in this situation:

"Don't do battle with a teenager. It's like doing battle with a pig. You both get dirty and the pig loves it."

Could be your mom enjoys the drama and the upheaval and the attention she gets from you in the midst of it all, which is not healthy. Stop being the enabler.

[Rose of Cairo]

needless to say, it has taken quite a pounding on my self esteem, but also of my opinion of her.

what should i do? and, who is right?

I would say : stop judging both yourself and her. There is no "right" and "wrong" in this thing.

My heart goes with you. I know what you are talking about very well... My family is extremly dysfunctional and abusive too. All of them are alcoholics or "dry" alcoholics (don't know how to say that in english : alcoholics that don't drink alcohol any more). I cared for my mom since I was a child, she was depressive too.

I'd like to tell you, you are not responsible for her. It's her life, she's an adult (even if she doesn't behave according to that evidence). She has to go through this alone. You have to let her go and focus on yourself. I know you are feeling responsible and would feel very guilty if you stop helping her. but 1) it's a too big charge for you to help her now. It's steeling the energy you need for your own life. 2) And : it's not your job! You are her son, not her father and not a psychologist. What you told us I would not call "being friends". I know how this is, I was my mom's "best friend" for years too, but that isn't friendship. 3) You're not trained to do it. so even if you really wish to help her, you'll likely to fail anyway. Let this job to a professional. you may think you're helping her that way, but you're not really helping her. 4) It would be better for her too, you know. It's not only about you and your energy. As I stopped supporting my mom, she first was very down. But soon she started a big change in her life. She began socializing, growing, she overcame her depression and has now friends (real friends!) with whom she can talk. And I am her (real!) daughter now. As long as I was always listening to her and trying to help her, she would never have done that. So I was holding her back.

"him or me" doesn't make sense. you cannot force her "on the right path". It's her life, she has the right to do what she wants. And you have the right to go on secure distance. No, actually I think it's your duty. That's the best thing you can do if you love her.

I hope my post isn't offending you... I know how hard my words may sound to you. I needed a lot of time to make this decision too, so I know how you're feeling.

Best wishes to you!

[Brutha]

believe me, you will be hard pressed to find a more independent 25 year old man in almost every respect. [...] therefore i have no allies there to help me intervene.

It seems that you are so independent to other people that you have nobody to help you.

i know her personal life is her business but if she is going to be with an abusive chain smoking alcoholic against my strongest warnings

That isn't the point. It isn't about whether you are right to interfere it is about whether your attempt to interfere helps her, with it doesn't do.

it's easier not to be judgemental when it's a friend or stranger, but how can you not judge the actions taken by a close loved one, just out of bare concern for their wellfare?

You fought a battle that you couldn't win, in result you damaged one of the only supporting relationships that she has (with you).
It might have been easy to act that way but it isn't effective.
You can't get a smoker with forceful arguments to stop smoking, especially someone who don't has the will power to fight his addictions.

at what point to you put up all of the lessons they teach in therapy to make yourself happier in exchange for the tough love a close person may need to avoid self-destruction?

You can't overpower her feelings

[Gary]

Your mother is a grown woman. Whether she makes decisions for he own best interest according to your beliefs or not is her business. You would not want her dictating your life when you are an adult. Also you probably wouldn't appreciate her threatening you with ultimatums of "him or me".

Apologize and show her the same respect that you would like to have.

If you really love her and care about her you will spend a bit more time with her working through making her life better instead of threatening her into it.

All of this does not mean that some boundaries, particularly with the boyfriend who wants to throw fists, wouldn't be appropriate.

Good Luck

[Love]

I would like to respond to you because I feel your desire to help your mom, though I have no idea what to do. It seems like you tried so much and taking a strong directive with your mom without any lasting effects. I'd advocating cooling it for awhile, but how could you leave your family like that? It seems so unhelpful. But maybe the best thing for your mom really is some space.
With time, I hope things become illuminated.

[unwiser]

your mother is with a chain smoking alcoholic because on some level she wants to be with a chain smoking alcoholic.


At some point it is healthy to free youself. dont be the victim, the persecutor, or the enabler

[LifeProCoach]

Originally Posted by thethinkingboy

at what point to you put up all of the lessons they teach in therapy to make yourself happier in exchange for the tough love a close person may need to avoid self-destruction?

Hello thinkingboy,

The point is now. Tough love is what is needed now. Not just for your mom but for your own health's sake.

I send my loving greetings to you, you must be going through a rough ride with your mom. She is not only self-destructing but in her doing this you are not letting go, so she affects you an in such a way that you won't be able to focus on your responsibility, which is making your own life functional and yourself happy with positive people that you let in your life.

There is nothing you can do for your mom and the only person who can help her is herself by cleaning up her act, stop the smoking and drinking and start to have the self-respect that she ought to have as a human being that has without a doubt many qualities but which, at present, are dormant and set to inactive during her dependency and addiction. Unfortunately, it's a sickness and should be regarded as such.

Do not get dragged down and make sure you are getting enough positive input in your life, surround yourself with people who are nurturing you and who give you the loving and respectful relationship you deserve. You cannot find it in a woman who has let go of herself and who chooses this destructive life style for herself at the risk of loosing her own loved ones.

You love her, now be tough! Let go.

If you get a chance to read find this book:

Amazon.com: Codependent No More: How to Stop Controlling Others and Start Caring for Yourself: Books: Melody Beattie

If you can afford one, find a mentor who will be able to help you set emotional barriers, and if necessary take action and move so that the geographical aspect makes it hard for you to be reachable.


All the best.

[ZHereford]

Hi thethinkingboy,

It's obvious that you are a responsible, caring and good son. How unfortunate that your mother can't see that you are acting in her best interests. You are 'right' in that her behavior is irrational and unacceptable. As you experienced, however, there is not much you can do about it. She doesn't want to change. She is stuck in a rut and she's not about to listen to what you have to say.

As others have suggested, it would be a good idea for you to back off for a while but let her know that you love her no matter what and will help her when she is willing to help herself.

Beyond that you have no control over the situation. You deserve to live your life and not have to worry about what she will do. She has demonstrated she doesn't want your help right now. It is evident that you are a good, caring person.

[thethinkingboy]

Thank you guys for all of the input; it's really inspiring to see that there are so many good people out in the world. I connected with everything you guys had to say and especially what was said about maintaining a certain level of positive input to stay balanced. These last few weeks have been really depressing and I have isolated myself from good energy for many reasons (not just this situation). I have a tendency to dwell on my problems at times because it occupies my never quiet mind. My family is just not as healthy for me as I would like. Everyone in my house is hot-headed and looking for their next fight. I have become self doubting and self critical as it relates to my family to compensate for the havoc I wreaked as a teenager. I have this apologetic complex because I was an aggressive teen with rage issues, and now I'm this 25 year old man who's been in therapy for 5 years on and off really trying to be the best person I can be. My father and my two sisters have serious rage issues and I'm the only one that has ever worked at it and this has made me the punching bag; that is why I have no allies in that house. I keep thinking about what I should do and after a long talk with my life coach, I agree with the general message from everyone here. Let her come to me, and the same goes for the rest of my family. I think I spend about 4 months out of a typical year in communication with my sisters. My younger sister lost it when I popped in to pick up some legal docs and made a fax which cut out her DSL, she hasn't talked to me in months. My older sister hasn't spoken to me in a month because I left our mothers front door unlocked, and would not let her finish her rant about security in Beverly Hills. What I'm getting at is, is it possible that everyone with my last name is nuts but me?? This family is not even operating at minimal sanity and frankly, I have enough business, social, and interpersonal work that should be a higher priority.

[Rose of Cairo]

MOVE OUT!!!!!!!

I send you lots of love!

[thethinkingboy]

I moved out ages ago. I own a house in las vegas and in beverly hills with no one to thank but myself. Like I said, I am one of the most independent self made men of my age and damn proud of it.

[LifeProCoach]

Congratulations on both, your wise decision to move out and your ability to get help when you need it.
You're deserving of positive feedback and you need to find yourself the right people for it. Don't dwell over your problems. Take distance from them and use them as a good reason to seek out motivational material that helps you maintain a stable mind. Perhaps you can find some relief in learning meditation.

Please listen to this call as it gives very good guidance and perhaps it can motivate you to focus more on your goals rather than on our problems.

Having It All