Alcohol

[Totga]

I've been giving up booze recently, not because I think I have lost control, but because I thought life could be better without it. I wrote up my experience so far, along with reasons behind it, in a blog post here:

Alcohol « totga

But I'm interested in what you guys all think, so re-publish it here in full and look forward to hearing your thoughts on alcohol - a drug so prevalent in modern society, most of us don't recognise it as we would heroin or niccotine:

-- Article Starts Here --

A few weeks ago, I awoke one morning with a sore, dry throat. I felt sick. I had a headache. I was ill.

The illness didn’t need a doctor to diagnose though. I knew what the problem was, I knew how to fix it, I thought it would be hard (it wasn’t). I had been drinking daily for the previous two weeks, and to excess. Living as I do in Manchester (England), pubs are open until the early hours all over the city and it’s not hard to find enjoyment in the high life. I had been over-doing it though, and had been binge-drinking myself to sleep most nights.

This wasn’t the first time I’d ever “gone on a bender”. It was just the latest episode in a decade of heavy drinking. I certainly didn’t consider myself an alcoholic - I wasn’t drinking before four or five in the afternoon, and rarely alone - I just felt I was drinking heavily at this point. I was fed up of feeling down and wanted to feel better, and started thinking about why I was using alcohol the way I was. I knew, deep down, I needed to get it back into check.

Some years ago when giving up smoking I had read Alan Carr’s “Easyway to give up Smoking” which had helped no end - I gave up almost immediately, and everybody I let have a read of it, also gave up. At the time I made a mental note he had also produced a book on “Controlling Alcohol”. I ordered it from Amazon, it turned up a few days later and I started reading.

After the first few chapters, as it was with the smoking book, I could feel the scales starting to fall from my eyes. I have read half of it so far, and already I know I never really want to drink alcohol again. A new chapter in my life is opening, and I figured I may as well share some of the journey with you.

Firstly, let me explain to you I am not a “lightweight”. I can happily put away a half dozen pints in an afternoon, have some curry and set myself up for a night out of serious drinking. I often didn’t stop drinking before midnight - usually later - and sometimes might have had a bottle of wine on top of it all.

Nor am I “completely out of control”. I can happily put it all down and go sober for weeks at a time - I normally give up booze for a few weeks once in a while anyway. I just sometimes let my occasional bouts of depression and stress get to me, and let the booze have a free run for a couple of weeks.

This is all behind me now though thanks to this rather odd little book. What I now realise is that alcohol isn’t something that helps me relax: it just numbs the pain. It’s not trendy and cool: it’s just peer pressure telling me I should behave a certain way. It’s not something I enjoy the taste of: the other stuff in the glass used to mask the flavour of alcohol is what I’m really enjoying the taste of. I don’t enjoy getting drunk, I actually dislike that bit quite a lot: it’s the friends I’m hanging out with I like. I certainly don’t enjoy the hangover the next morning: my body is reacting to a poison that my liver hates, dehydrates me, and leaves my stomach feeling awful.

Will I say I’ll never drink again? No. Because I’m only half-way through the book, the deal is that I carry on drinking until the book tells me to stop, but I doubt I’ll enjoy the drinks I have this weekend whilst finishing up and moving on to the next - more sober part - of my life. I can’t right now think of a reason as to why I would want to drink alcohol again in future. That doesn’t mean I never will drink again, just that I can’t see the point. It’s not about ‘giving up’ or ‘I’m one drink away from oblivion’ - I just now think alcohol is a trap, propped up by views of most of Western society.

-- End of Article Here --

Thoughts/comments most welcome...

[Lotus]

Main point, you know you best, but read the following with an open mind.

There is a myth about alcoholism that implies that you need to be drinking from sun-up to sundown everyday and getting DTs when you stop before you might consider yourself alcoholic.

This myth is dangerous. I know because I've toed the alcoholic waters. I don't drink now because I know I'm the sort of person who would easily become alcoholic if I kept up the habit that I engaged in from the time I was 22 until I was 25. Maybe I *am* an alcoholic, based on those years.

These were the signs that told me that I was using alcohol to medicate depression, rather than drinking for recreation. They are all signs of alcoholism:
-When I'd start drinking (on a given day, always after 5:00), I wouldn't stop until I'd become seriously drunk. This is binge drinking, even you only do it once a month.
-I could consume very large quantities of alcohol for a 130lb female. I could drink some of my male friends under the table, and my best friend, who is Irish and proud of it.
-I would usually go for drinks that would get me screwed up quicker. No girly drinks for me: pass me the vodka, straight up.
-I had occasional blackouts -- where I was still functional, but I have no memory of what happened. My friends assured me that I was "the life of the party" during these times. Mostly I managed not to make a whore of myself.
-I'd wake up saying "I'm not going to that again!" Then a couple of weeks later... I'd do it again.
-One drink is enough to make me give up a lot of rational thought in favor of getting smashed. (Example, I'm a careful eater; I don't eat junk. After 3 drinks... pass the cheetos and cookie dough, ladies, we're having an estrogen fest.)

On top of this, I was having problems with depression at the time. Alcohol is a depressant; while it numbs the pain, it also further depresses brain function, so when it wears off, you're on a lower rung than you were to begin with.

So, my advice? Stop using alcohol altogether. Don't keep any at your house, don't drink any while you're out. If your friends go out to drink, be their DD. I'm the group "mom" now: I keep my girls from going home with strangers or drinking too much. Make a conscious descision to stop drinking and tell your friends. Be straight up with them: "I think I'm getting a problem with alcohol, and I'm quitting. Please help me with this. Don't offer to buy me drinks, don't bring booze over. I still want to hang out, but I want to be the DD from now on." People who are your friends will respect your decision.

[Totga]

Lotus,

Thanks for the reply, and for sharing. It's an interesting set of points you make.

One of the interesting points this book makes is that what most people define as being "alcoholic" is completely wrong - rather than defining it as somebody who is dependent on alcohol - i.e. somebody who has lost control - but rather it is somebody who has come to know that they have lost control. The reasoning is simple: all people who drink lose control, alcoholics are just the ones who know it.

He asserts that alcohol is a bit like a trap. You get drawn in, like a mouse to a mousetrap lured with the smell of cheese, but you don't realise the cheese is poisoned and the trap will spring and next thing you know you'll wish you hadn't gone near it. He doesn't, however, agree with Alcoholics Anonymous who believe that alcoholics are physically or chemically flawed in themselves - he believes we are all capable of walking into the trap, and we force ourselves into it through peer-group pressure: the lie that drinking alcohol is actually pleasurable. Instead, he points out that we suffer the taste for a while until we acquire the taste, and then we get into numbing the senses, and then we need more, and then we acquire the taste of stronger stuff, and then we need more, and then... so the cycle continues.

It's also not the case that I think if I had one single drink I'd end up getting wrecked again almost immediately: alcohol isn't that addictive. I think I'm now at the point where I know how I use it, why I use it, how futile that is, and how much more sane and rational it is to just not drink.

In the same way that Carr's earlier book made a big impression on how people think about nicotine addiction, I think this could have the potential to tip the balance with alcohol in some parts, however I don't hold too much hope given that we are a society where 90% of adults drink this stuff.

If somebody had tried telling me all this a year ago, I know I wouldn't have listened, so hey-ho.

[Matthew Shea]

First, let me say that Lotus has a lot of good wisdom in her post. (Very funny sig, BTW, Lotus).

Second, I should start by saying that I'm the son of a reformed alcoholic and long-term AA member who has helped many-a-person straighten their life out. I've seen cases much worse than anyone in this thread so far seems to be.

To me, the essence of alcoholism is not losing control, having a disease, having a pre-disposition or anything else like that. The essence of the problem is that the logical part of your brain KNOWS what you're doing is destructive, yet you continue drinking to excess despite the damage it causes. In that way, it's the same as any other addiction. Those who are truly not alcoholics but still drink do so in a controlled way that has no negative impact on the rest of their life. I disagree that someone has to know they have a problem to be an alcoholic. "Denial ain't just a river in Egypt" as they say.

From what I've seen, the key to controlling alcoholism is to truly realize at the deepest level that you cannot keep doing what you've been doing. You have to come to an epiphany. This happens to each person in a different way. For my dad, it was the threat of divorce and losing his children. For others, it's hitting rock bottom in some other way, perhaps after a severe bender that puts you in the hospital with alcohol poisoning. Some may never truly recover. One person I know shot himself after a bender. They found him dead behind an abandoned store. The really sad part was that he was recovering very well and had a promising future (good fiance, good job, went to church every week, etc).

I hope this helps in some way. I certainly wish you the best of luck dealing with your problem. Let me end by saying that most people will require social support to maintain a state of sobriety, which is why groups like AA are so valuable. Everyone is different, though. Someone with only a mild problem, as you seem to have, may be able to simply decide to stop. During my college days I was headed down the path to alcoholism myself. My epiphany was when my dad waited up for me one night after I had been drinking to the point of puking and passing out. He told me he loved me, walked me to bed and never said another thing. That was more powerful than any lecture he could have come up with and stopped me dead in my tracks. I didn't drink for a year or more after that and, when I did drink again, took it much more carefully. To this day, I feel I truly don't have a problem. I'm sure even my dad would vouch for that.

[Totga]

Matthew, I hope you don't mind, but I'm going to have to disagree with you in the strongest possible - but polite - terms I can.

Originally Posted by Matthew Shea

I've seen cases much worse than anyone in this thread so far seems to be.

I doubt it - I've seen alcoholism do its thing to a wide range of people. I've known my share of people who needed to drink first thing in the morning and stay permanently drunk. They even hid it from us for years by drinking fruit-based cocktails so we wouldn't smell it on their breath.

Originally Posted by Matthew Shea

To me, the essence of alcoholism is not losing control, having a disease, having a pre-disposition or anything else like that.

An alcoholic is somebody who has REALISED that they have lost control.

Everybody who drinks has lost control - that's the nature of the beast, it's why we fall over, throw up, "have just one more". Those who realise this is happening and carries on, is an alcoholic. Those who don't know it's going on are just lying to themselves, IMHO.

The biggest lie prevalent in our society today concerning alcohol is that there is such a thing as an "in control" and "normal" drinker. There just isn't. It's a lie.

Originally Posted by Matthew Shea

Those who are truly not alcoholics but still drink do so in a controlled way that has no negative impact on the rest of their life.

I'm afraid Matthew that is - IMHO, of course - completely, totally, and utterly wrong, but I suspect that most people are too close-minded to consider in a fair-minded way what I'm repeating here, written originally by Carr.

There is no way to drink alcohol in a controlled way completely of free will, in the same way there is no way to smoke nicotine or use heroin in a 'controlled way'. It's a trap. If you don't drink booze, and you take a sip, you realise it tastes disgusting: this is nature's warning that it's not good for you - it is literally a poison. When you acquire the taste - which your body does, as it assumes you have to take this drug and you don't have a choice in the matter - you are effectively caught in the trap. That's the main point of Carr's book.

Originally Posted by Matthew Shea

I disagree that someone has to know they have a problem to be an alcoholic. "Denial ain't just a river in Egypt" as they say.

I'm happy to revise my definition it to "anybody who has adjusted their taste so as to not be disgusted by the taste of alcohol, and so carries on drinking" if you prefer. If you doubt me, think back to the first two or three drinks you had when you were younger and whether you really, genuinely, liked the taste? Or did you just fit in with the people around you because you thought that's what grown-ups did?

Another point of Carr's book addresses the brainwashing prevalent in society about alcohol, and it is this brainwashing that makes us all start in the first place. The fact people think alcohol is any less a drug than nicotine completely baffles me. I used to be a very, very heavy drinker, and now I can't help but think I was basically being conned by the whole of society for years on end.

Originally Posted by Matthew Shea

Some may never truly recover.

In my opinion, this only happens because AA teaches that the 'victim' as an individual is at fault for drinking. They just absolutely point-blank refuse to accept the true nature of alcohol.

Think of it like this (an analogy from the book):

There are a load of healthy, able-bodied young people standing on a beach. Some of them, after a few minutes get stuck and can't lift their feet out of the sand, even when the tide comes in. Which one of the following is the most likely explanation for this anomaly?

a) They were probably standing in Quicksand
b) They probably have a physical/chemical defect
c) They probably have a mental health issue or personality disorder

You would be an idiot to answer anything other than a), yet AA refuse to accept the answer can be anything other than b) or c) and counsel people into thinking it's their fault they're sinking on the beach. Some people will take just a few minutes to sink into the sand of alcohol, others might take decades, but alcohol is quicksand: eventually everybody who drinks is going to have to realise that the drug is abusing them. AA themselves accept that it can take "between 2 and 60 years to become an alcoholic" - i.e. at any point in your adult life, no matter how long you drink "responsibly". Anybody who tells you that alcoholism is something to do with the person concerned is just ignorant, in my opinion.

Originally Posted by Matthew Shea

Let me end by saying that most people will require social support to maintain a state of sobriety, which is why groups like AA are so valuable.

I'm afraid, I really couldn't disagree with you more. People will require social support to stay stable whilst they are told that it is their problem they drink, and nobody points out that is the alcohol doing this to them.

If instead, people were told it was the alcohol that was doing this to them, why it was doing it to them, and how to deal with giving up, they wouldn't need social support in the same way that people who give up smoking don't spend the rest of their lives 'one smoke away from disaster'. AA requires people to turn up to meetings for years after quitting alcohol, because they make them think they are flawed people. When was the last time you saw people needing to do that with nicotine? I haven't smoked my usual 20/day for years now, but I don't think "oh, but I'm so flawed, I could be taken in at any moment".

I'm sorry you knew somebody who felt they were so flawed they needed to end it all and shot themselves. That's incredibly sad. However, it just goes to show the damage AA is doing to people: if we just admitted what alcohol is, we'd be a happier society, and people who wanted to stop drinking would be able to do so without feeling that it was impossible for them to give up.

I really, really, REALLY STRONGLY urge people interested in alcoholism to read Carr's book. I can't stress it enough. I know that I will never want to drink alcohol again and will not require social support to do it, because I now see it in exactly the same terms as nicotine and heroin: they are absolutely no different in how they abuse us.

Originally Posted by Matthew Shea

Someone with only a mild problem, as you seem to have, may be able to simply decide to stop.

I was getting to the point where stealing was looking like an option to fund it. I was permanently hung over. I was starting at midday, and my work was suffering. I don't remember many of the evenings of the last few years of my life. I don't remember the names of most of the people I drink with. I once spent an evening rolling around in my own vomit because I was too drunk to stand up.

It wasn't a mild problem.

What is extraordinary, is to many people - the thought of stealing aside - that this was "normal" drinking behaviour. Most of my friends think this is acceptable and a normal lifestyle!

Please don't take this harshly, but I feel you're patronising me: "oh, well, for you it might have been easy". But the ease with which I am giving up booze has nothing to do with the extent of my drinking: it was thanks to the way that I gave up drinking.

I stopped listening to the lie that there is such a thing as a "normal" drinker. I refused to listen to the lies AA spread that alcoholism is a fault of the individual. I accepted what alcohol is: an addictive poison like nicotine. In the same way I think I would be mad to smoke, I now think I would be mad to drink.

The fact I got here from where I was without counseling is not, I repeat NOT, anything to do with me "just deciding to stop" because I had "a mild problem". It was everything to do with that book.

If you've ever given up smoking, you'd know Carr's book on smoking, which is now infamous. The alcohol book will get it's reputation one day, as it deserves to. Even people who drink a bottle of wine once in a while don't realise the damage they're doing to themselves, but when public health programmes move to focus on alcohol, maybe we'll be able to save a few of the thousands of deaths a year caused by even "mild" drinking.

Originally Posted by Matthew Shea

During my college days I was headed down the path to alcoholism myself. My epiphany was when my dad waited up for me one night after I had been drinking to the point of puking and passing out. He told me he loved me, walked me to bed and never said another thing. That was more powerful than any lecture he could have come up with and stopped me dead in my tracks. I didn't drink for a year or more after that and, when I did drink again, took it much more carefully. To this day, I feel I truly don't have a problem. I'm sure even my dad would vouch for that.

I'm glad to hear it, and maybe the abuse you put yourself through was enough to keep a check on it for now, but I promise you that the nature of alcohol as a chemical and as a drug is that you will find yourself over coming decades increasing your intake. All I'd say is when your mind is open to it, go hunt down Alan Carr's book - he's not paying me to say this, but I really do think it's the most important book I've ever read in my life.

Also, please remember that the majority of people who present themselves with cirrhosis of the liver do so with only a "mild" drink habit - it really is a toxin that is doing all sorts of damage to you. Consider quitting. You'll feel like a new man, I promise you.

Thanks for your thoughts anyway, and sorry if you think I'm being argumentative.

[SamBeaven]

Hey Totga,

What's the title of the Carr book you refer to? I couldn't find the title in any of your posts, is it the easy way to give up drinking, or no more hangovers?

I'm what society calls a 'normal' drinker myself, and I'm interested in what you talk about with Carr's work.

[Wanderer]

I gave up drinking about this time last year after getting drunk several times during the year. Ive not found it particularly hard, although sometimes you can feel a little left out when everyone but you is happily drunk and laughing at very little things which arent in the least bit funny. As far as I can tell drinking has very few if any positive aspects, and a great deal more negative ones (health wise and behavior wise). I have been sober for about a year now (with only one beer in the middle on St Patricks night), and I believe the benifits greatly outweight the costs. Hopefully Ill be able to continue been sober at university and use the money for something worthwhile (shares anyone)
Best of luck

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by Totga

If you doubt me, think back to the first two or three drinks you had when you were younger and whether you really, genuinely, liked the taste? Or did you just fit in with the people around you because you thought that's what grown-ups did?

I feel I should insert a point of dissent here. I want to start by stating that I personally have yet to be able to stand the taste of alcohol; I've tried it a number of times, but I've never been able to get past two or three sips. It's repulsive.

That said, I... associate... with people who self-label themselves connoisseurs of beer, and a good friend of mine says Guinness is a wonderful thing, but dislikes all other beers. I think this is interesting, and a point: alcoholic drinks can certainly taste quite good, and people may in fact drink them for that. The latter, Guinness-advocate, is not the sort of person who would even permit peer pressure upon himself, let alone listen to it. And then there is the whole panoply of wine tasters and the art of matching wines to dinners.

So, I'd argue that yes, you really can like the taste, even if it's an acquired one. The same is true for the other bacteria-infested French forte: cheese. And that doesn't even have alcohol to blame.

[kfcallahan]

I agree with totga's statements that alcohol is truly an addictive poison. If you get a chance, read the first few chapters of a book called Beyond The Influence, which describes in great detail what alcohol does to your body, organ by organ. You'll never want to drink to excess again.

Having said that, I think that there is great value in using a social support system when you're trying to quit drinking, smoking, overeating or whatever. It provides one with an opportunity to share one's feelings and to know that you're not alone. There's also a lot of benefit in learning from others how they were able to beat or at least rein in the demon that they were trying to tame.

IMHO, whatever methodology that someone uses to quit an addictive or harmful behavior or deal with a mental illness (as long as it doesn't hurt others) is valid if it is effective for that person. We're all unique individuals and different tactics will have different effects on different people. I think that it's a case where the end is much more important than the means.

[Totga]

Originally Posted by SamBeaven

What's the title of the Carr book you refer to? I couldn't find the title in any of your posts, is it the easy way to give up drinking, or no more hangovers?

The book I have is Allen Carr's Easy Way to Control Alcohol which is ISBN 0572028504. I didn't realise he'd produced more books, but I'm guessing the other book is much like this one - he has a habit of rehashing a few bits and pieces in a book and releasing it as a "new" title. He did it with smoking: my friend has "Easyway to give up smoking" and "Easyway to give up smoking permanently" which appear to be effectively the same book.

Just to cover a few things other people have mentioned:

Wanderer: last night I got to the point in this book where Carr talks about willpower. I've given up in the past using willpower, and always thought about why it felt so hard. It wasn't until last night that I realised how stupid I was being. The internal conversation goes like this:

"I shouldn't have a beer. But I want one. But I know really, I don't. But one drink can't hurt me. But if I drink, I'll fail! Really? One drink?... "

It's almost schizophrenic! Carr's point is not that it takes willpower to stop drinking, but if you think about it, your rational, sensible, sane part of the brain is quite normally saying "you don't want a drink", and you're urging yourself on with willpower to START drinking again, not give up! It sounds weird at first, and then you think about it, and it kind of makes sense: the logic is actually the other way around to the way we think it is: it actually takes a kind of willpower to drink, not to give up.

Michael Chui: I understand what you mean, and this is something this book deals with at length. I think now, the taste people enjoy is actually the stuff around the alcohol - your body adjusts to mask the taste of the alcohol itself, because it assumes you have no choice but to carry on consuming it. As you know yourself, the taste is pretty horrendous unless you've spent some time building up an appreciation, and that's nature's warning: this stuff isn't good for you, please stop. We don't listen, we carry on, nature adjusts our senses so we don't suffer. Wonderful thing, the human body.

For years, I too wouldn't drink anything but Guinness, then my stomach couldn't handle it, and it wasn't getting me drunk enough, so I 'upgraded' to stronger stuff. Eventually I was able to drink neat scotch, but stopped for a few years and drank lager instead (fiscal and health reasons stopped me then). Now I go back and try drinking neat scotch and ask myself "what the heck did I see in this that I liked so much?" because it tastes foul to me now. My body has already started to recover and my senses are restored.

Like I said, wonderful thing, the human body.

kfcallahan: I think I'll check that book out, thanks for the tip!

As for social support networks, I think I should clarify something about Carr's network. He argued once with the UK's Advertising Standards Authority about his adverts for his 'giving up smoking' books. The ASA requires all adverts for such products in the UK to carry a warning "requires willpower to give up". He argued his system didn't, but the ASA argued it was "obvious" that you need willpower - and perhaps support - to give up an addiction, and all doctors agreed.

The thing with Carr's setup though is that it changes your attitude to how you perceive the thing you're addicted to. His response was "does it take willpower to not catch a number 9 bus, when you had no intention or need of getting a number 9 bus?" to which of course the answer is "no, don't be stupid".

The trick with this is that at the end it's not willpower keeping you away, you just don't see the point. You think "why on earth would I want a drink/cigarette, right now?" and you enjoy not having one.

In such a scenario, you can probably imagine that in the same way you don't need a support network to not catch a bus, you don't need one to give up smoking or alcohol. It's hard to explain, and most people are understandably skeptical.

All I'd say is, give it a go and if you find yourself needing a social support network afterwards, give it a whirl. For my money, it's just another way of saying "you're flawed, this is your fault" rather than saying "this stuff is poison", but if it helps you where other systems fail, that's got to be a good thing.

Thank you all for your interesting comments - really interesting stuff in here!

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by Totga

As you know yourself, the taste is pretty horrendous unless you've spent some time building up an appreciation, and that's nature's warning: this stuff isn't good for you, please stop. We don't listen, we carry on, nature adjusts our senses so we don't suffer. Wonderful thing, the human body.

Issue: I get the same warning when I eat broccoli. In fact, I get that kind of response from my body from a host of mostly indisputably good substances. A friend of a friend is a vegetarian, and from her I've been treated to some... interesting salads. The stuff is good for me, I'm almost positive, but eh. Of course, there's that old adage, "If it's tastes good, it's not good for you."

Another of my friends, who I didn't recall during the other post, was cautioned by his father never to drink alcohol. The reason was interesting: apparently, when he was younger, he was given some and he liked it. Most people, his father told him, don't actually like the taste of alcohol, so they're not as likely to become alcoholic. You, his father continued, like it, so it's much easier for you.

Friend #3: he's Irish/German, former military, and only got drunk once because his tolerance is, well, through the roof. That single moment of being drunk caused him to drop alcohol completely. He's quite a remarkable person, but I thought I'd share the story, though not the details, since I'm disinclined to give the people reading something to dare at.

[Totga]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

Issue: I get the same warning when I eat broccoli. In fact, I get that kind of response from my body from a host of mostly indisputably good substances. A friend of a friend is a vegetarian, and from her I've been treated to some... interesting salads. The stuff is good for me, I'm almost positive, but eh. Of course, there's that old adage, "If it's tastes good, it's not good for you."

Ah, but broccoli contains glucosinolates which can be harmful if you don't have enough iodine in your diet - the fact some people hate it, is because from an evolutionary stand-point, it is in your interest not to take it:

Quirks & Quarks: Excuses from Evolution

See, I told you the human body is an incredible thing. Go on, admit it, that's an incredible thing to read: humanity has evolved a taste of certain foods based on how much iodine there is in the local environment.

I can see that the taste for alcohol might have developed in a similar way, but I don't understand why some groups might have evolved a liking for the taste of it, because it basically turns your insides to gunk. I don't see the upside in it from the body's point of view.

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

Another of my friends, who I didn't recall during the other post, was cautioned by his father never to drink alcohol. The reason was interesting: apparently, when he was younger, he was given some and he liked it. Most people, his father told him, don't actually like the taste of alcohol, so they're not as likely to become alcoholic. You, his father continued, like it, so it's much easier for you.

I can believe that might be the case - for me I think I enjoy other drinks' tastes a lot more. Given the choice between a cranberry juice and a glass of wine, based on taste alone, I'd go for the cranberry juice. I expect most people, if they were honest, are probably similar but we live in a society where to not drink is considered 'cissy-ish' or for younger adults perhaps even 'childish'.

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

Friend #3: he's Irish/German, former military, and only got drunk once because his tolerance is, well, through the roof. That single moment of being drunk caused him to drop alcohol completely. He's quite a remarkable person, but I thought I'd share the story, though not the details, since I'm disinclined to give the people reading something to dare at.

Yeah, I remember the first time I drank so much I lost control, and the next morning I swore off alcohol. It didn't work though. I'm glad I'm at a point now where I just don't see the advantage of it any more. I'm never going to think "I want to, but I can't", just simply "ooh, they've got cranberry juice... nice..." :-)

[SamBeaven]

Originally Posted by Totga

Ah, but broccoli contains glucosinolates which can be harmful if you don't have enough iodine in your diet - the fact some people hate it, is because from an evolutionary stand-point, it is in your interest not to take it:

Quirks & Quarks: Excuses from Evolution

See, I told you the human body is an incredible thing. Go on, admit it, that's an incredible thing to read: humanity has evolved a taste of certain foods based on how much iodine there is in the local environment.

I can see that the taste for alcohol might have developed in a similar way, but I don't understand why some groups might have evolved a liking for the taste of it, because it basically turns your insides to gunk. I don't see the upside in it from the body's point of view.

Actually, the taste for alcohol is a cultural throwback to the middle ages - the vast majority of water was unsafe to drink due to contaminants (dead animals, sewage, etc), while the fermentation process sterilizes (at least partially) the water in beer. So everyone drank beer, from the moment they were off the teat until they died, all the time. Quite interesting to have a society where everyone was constantly drunk.

It was strong stuff as well, much stronger than the ales or largers we have today - 15% volume on average.

[demk]

I quit recently too.

I was always wondering why I was depressed all the time and it never occurred to me that it might be the two drinking binges a week that were wearing me down. It had to go because I wasnt in control of it. I couldnt go out and enjoy myself without it which counts as a problem.

Its so much better now though because I enjoy the week so much more. I used to literally live for the weekend. I thought that it was all about just going out and getting wasted.

[Matthew Shea]

Totga,

Skimming through your post, I can come only to the conclusion that you've completely closed your mind to this issue and are not open to intelligent debate. This is scary IMO and makes me wonder why you're inquiring about people's thoughts if you only intend to refute them. If alcohol is a trap for you, I definitely commend you for staying away from it. As for me, I'll continue to drink occasionally knowing that I'm the one maintaining control over the beverage, not the other way around. Finally, I've seen alcohol do the ultimate damage: lead people to suicide. I've seen two cases of this personally. How can you have seen worse?

Sincerely,

Matt

[dECLAN]

Originally Posted by Lotus

I could drink some of my male friends under the table, and my best friend, who is Irish and proud of it.

This is a form of ethnic stereotyping and one which will offend a lot of people. Please refrain from these kinds of prejudicial comments or you will be reported.

[smallstar]

I used to love drinking because of the atmosphere it created - you can instantly feel a closeness with strangers, you can dance and flirt all night long. I also met my current fianceé at the club scene. Anyway, one day last spring, after me vomiting at her apartment, she was complaining that I drunk too much, so I began to think. I was not so happy myself with the situation (too much time wasted on hangover; morning fatigue after staying up too long), so I decided to replace my drinking habit with having sports.

It took a few discussions with my friends, which went like: "You up for beer?" "Sure!" "What did you just order - orange juice?" "Yep - I'm going swimming/bicycling/running today, and even one beer would screw up my metabolism completely". "Come on, it's just one beer." "No I can't, and you know it." Sometimes, I told that I was going to have sport the following day, or even invented imaginary sports that I would be doing. When hosting drinking parties, I was a very aggressive when pouring booze to my guests. I drank booze with every guest (of course, as host, I was usually able to pour water into my shot, so that I could drink 2-3 people under the table during the same evening without anyone ever noticing).

Then I discovered aerobics. Music, dance, scantily clad sporty girls (sex ratio from 3:1 to 9:1) to flirt with (some instructors are very skilled on that, since they can make men work out harder that way), a very good feeling afterwards, no hangover, and my fianceé isn't angry or jealous. The best of all, they today also have such easy classes that even such a coordinational disaster like me can attend.

Nowadays, I drink 25% of what I used to drink a year ago, and the number is getting less and less all the time without me putting any conscious thought to it.

OK, what's the moral of the story? Use creativity. Think of something you'd rather do than drinking alcohol, with similar upsides but less downsides. Switch your point of view. Note that I was not taking the alcohol viewpoint ("But, I promised to drink less") but the sport viewpoint ("If I do this, I cannot do sport tonight"). Someone said that the mind does not understand the word 'no' - so if you try to concentrate in cutting down alcohol - repeat 100 times in your mind 'no alcohol' and your mind only hears 'alcohol', or the old Zen koan "do not think of a monkey." Be creative when turning down your friends. Recruit them to help you (I never even told anyone but my fianceé that I was cutting down drinking, but I told everyone I was doing more sports, I think it's easier to get people to support you in the latter case.) Finally, you don't have to feel the shame that is often related to the "I should quit X" programs - you are not a bad person that is correcting his behavior, but a good one who wants to be even better.

One disclaimer: I think my addiction to have been a purely mental one, and I have absolutely no experience on physical addictions except food, warmth, sex, and other similar things. Curing physical addictions may require measures of different type, or scale.

--SS (Mood meter: -1 in the scale of -5 to +5)

[Matthew Shea]

Originally Posted by dECLAN

This is a form of ethnic stereotyping and one which will offend a lot of people. Please refrain from these kinds of prejudicial comments or you will be reported.

It doesn't offend me (look at my last name).

The fact is the Irish have a well deserved reputation for drinking to excess. Alcoholism is a big problem there and has been for a long time. The previous generations of my father's family (my father included) all had issues with it. If that's offensive, perhaps it's only because it hits home a little too hard.

[Lotus]

Originally Posted by dECLAN

This is a form of ethnic stereotyping and one which will offend a lot of people. Please refrain from these kinds of prejudicial comments or you will be reported.

Erk, I think I came across wrong there; she's the one who goes around boasting about her drinking abilities being a result of her Irish birth. She's since immigrated to the US, but constantly tells everyone how "nobody drinks like the Irish". That's a label she stuck to herself; not one I put on her.

She's also a cop, how's that for stereotypical?

Personally, I don't think that the Irish are all "drinkers," and I do apologize if anyone is feeling ethnically stereotyped. I didn't mean it that way.

p.s. My mom's maiden name is "Casey."

[dECLAN]

Thanks for that Lotus.

My intention wasn't to have a go at you personally but to just to send out a general message that stereotyping (which was starting to creep in) would not go unchallenged.

I was born in Ireland and have lived in the United States, England, Holland and Australia for most of my adult life. I have encountered a fair degree of prejudice towards towards Irish people and the usual misconception that the Irish people are a nation of alcoholics. Sure there is a definite problem with alcohol in Ireland. You only need to walk down a city street in Dublin on a Friday or Saturday night to see this.

I have also met a lot of Irish people (who hasn't!) who DO drink in huge quantities and actually boast about this fact. BUT maybe behind all this bar-room bravado there is something missing. Some people have suggested that it could be the result of colonialism whose aftermath is often addiction, violence and alcoholism in those affected. Even though those people suffering from this are in denial it does not make this any the less of an insidious problem with far reaching affects. This phenomenon can also be seen the United States and Australia amongst the indigenous populations who have a higher rate of alcoholism and addiction to the rest of the community.

The theory I go along with most is by a transpersonal psychologist by the name of Christina Grof, who argues in her book The Thirst for Wholeness that addiction is a manifestation of profound spiritual yearning--the "thirst for wholeness" which Jung defined as a fundamental dilemma of being human. To escape the pain of this craving and fill the emptiness it implies, Grof suggests, many people adopt addictive behaviors, which only further parch the soul. The thirst can be quelled, she advises, only by moving through the emptiness to spiritual understanding.

Thoughts?

[Stephen]

I finsihed reading Allen Carr's book on November 19th 2006, where I seen it was recommended by Totga, and have never drank alcohol since.

Its an excellent eye opener.

[emf]

Allen Carr died from lung cancer on November 29, 2006. His obituary in the British Medical Journal says "Carr blamed his illness on the decades spent in smoke filled rooms helping others quit." Carr claimed to have helped 25 million smokers to quit and said that if his "illness is the price for that, it’s worth it."

[smrtpants]

Originally Posted by emf

Allen Carr died from lung cancer on November 29, 2006. His obituary in the British Medical Journal says "Carr blamed his illness on the decades spent in smoke filled rooms helping others quit." Carr claimed to have helped 25 million smokers to quit and said that if his "illness is the price for that, it’s worth it."

I'm a bit disappointed that such an altruistic, generous, hu-man [and would-be savior for my own self*] would play the 'blame game' card at the end of an obviously successful [with regard to leading others out of the 'shaken and stirred' depths of alcoholism and addiction].

* in the last year i ventured from the land of beer and wine > vanilla vodka [with milk, like a milkshake] > absinthe [with milk, like a green milkshake], as my libation of choice & at least doubled the frequency of imbibition...

"Are you sure that this is a semantically accurate quote", said the pedantic doryphor as she taped the 'dog-eared' pages of her 'diction-book', again...]

[dor]

Originally Posted by Lotus

Personally, I don't think that the Irish are all "drinkers," and I do apologize if anyone is feeling ethnically stereotyped. I didn't mean it that way.

north european peoples have higher alcoholism rates than southern european - probably genetic- american indians have shockingly high rates too. It's no accident that temperance movements, often tied into religion, are common among northern european peoples, rare in the south

Allen Carr: I read his book and found it very helpful. I didn't have an 'alcoholic' drinking problem but wanted to get out of the common social drinking lifestyle. I still have an occasional glass of wine, but now see intoxication as repulsive.

Totga: carr's ponit on taste taste is one thing i disagree with plenty of bitter things like spices are used to flavor good foods though he does make a good point that most people drink drinks that hide the taste of alcohol

michael Chui:: good for you, don't waste time trying to obtain that taste you'll save yourself a lot of time, money and embarassment.

matthew shea::concerning moderation, its and extremely hard thing to do harder than abstinance.... so a lot of people adapt an either or...its a way of framing things..

dclean: interesting...i think it's and attempt to experience life (releases inhibitions) more but what it really does is numb you to it.

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by dor

michael Chui:: good for you, don't waste time trying to obtain that taste you'll save yourself a lot of time, money and embarassment.

You really don't ever read what I say, do you? Thank you for your holier-than-thou advice, O Preacher to the Choir.

[marktb]

very interesting thread. I love beer myself and tend to overdo things. I just love the taste but never drink "in excess" but drink daily. I am very interested in learning more about Moderation Management b/c I dont WANT to give it up entirely but need to cut back and stop drinking nightly. my main problem is the inability to sip and enjoy the beer. Its like drinking pop I guess. I chug it very fast. Maybe I am kidding myself here but I dont "think" I have a problem but I may have.

I would love to find a "moderation managment buddy" who will join me in this cutting back. I know 12-14 beers per week sounds like alot to most people but I would be thrilled to be able to achieve this amount. The funny thing is I am a health/fitness guru. I am 38 years old, 6'0 190 lbs with 8% bodyfat who doesn't put crap in his body. I stick to microbeers because I feel its the best of the worst.

Mark

[dor]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

You really don't ever read what I say, do you? Thank you for your holier-than-thou advice, O Preacher to the Choir.

a little over sensitive today, aren't we?
you wrote:
I want to start by stating that I personally have yet to be able to stand the taste of alcohol; I've tried it a number of times, but I've never been able to get past two or three sips. It's repulsive.
i assume you don't drink.
I didn't mean you personally - that you would not be able to handle it... I was simply speaking from personal experience, from what I saw in college and even see with friends now - and myself on occasion. Nothing holier than thou about it. I don't think anyone here who 'drinks' - or has gotten drunk will disagree with that advice.

marktb trying drinking a lot of water first - alcohol is a tricky bugger because you think it's quenching your thirst but it actually dehydrates you...

[marktb]

yeh, good points. I should try that. I drink 1 gallon of cold water a day though for cleansing and fat loss.

[Michael Chui]

Well, thank you for the advice. I'm sure I demonstrated a very distinct need for it.

[dor]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

Well, thank you for the advice. I'm sure I demonstrated a very distinct need for it.

I wrote: I didn't mean you personally - that you would not be able to handle it... I was simply speaking from personal experience, from what I saw in college and even see with friends now - and myself on occasion. Nothing holier than thou about it. I don't think anyone here who 'drinks' - or has gotten drunk will disagree with that advice.
It was meant as general advice about drinking in, fancy that, a thread about alcohol. I can remember the pressure to drink that if you' (not you) couldn't handle it you were a 'light weight' or a 'two beer' ...and I am sure the same pressure exists today for many high school and college students. Thus, silly me I thought I might offer my experience using your statement - because there are many people as with smoking who force themselves to like it.

So please, don't take it personally, and look at it for what it is.

as i said i think anyone older (as in over 25) here who drinks/did drink would probably agree with me.