Alcohol

[Stephen]

Well it's almost 2 years now since I read the initial post and have been off the booze for those two years.

I just wanted to say, I have achieved so much in these two years: achievement in the sense of the little things that make life so much better.
For instance, not having to wake up in the morning feeling like sheet. Reading loads of books I have only dreamed of reading before, because it's almost impossible to read and drink at the same time.

It just feels so much better being alcohol free.

I highly recommend it.

The OP hasn't been around here for since 2006 either it seems. I hope he is well and I publicly thank him for the inspiration and StevePavlina for hosting that inspiration

Peace & Love Folks

[Eisho]

Originally Posted by Totga

Thoughts/comments most welcome...

To me, alcohol is just one of several different ways that I use to stay relaxed. It offers something different and a chance to socialize. Moderation is the key point. Excessive consumption is obviously bad and not at all a healthy choice.

Eisho

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by Eisho

To me, alcohol is just one of several different ways that I use to stay relaxed.

Yes, alcohol is a powerful drug that we perceive as something which is NOT a drug. Many people drink (take an alcoholic hit) to 'relax'.

Originally Posted by Eisho

It offers something different

From reality?

Originally Posted by Eisho

and a chance to socialize.

Many people with alcohol dependence cannot socialize without drinking alcohol....it's like they need it to be able to have fun. That is a warning sign.

Originally Posted by Eisho

Moderation is the key point. Excessive consumption is obviously bad and not at all a healthy choice.

Stimulants aren't meant to be moderated. Think about it. The body adapts to the dose of alcohol and other drugs so the amount which you think is moderate is normally, over time, far too much. People start drinking the odd beer or glass of wine during the week, which leads to every night after work. They end up consuming more and more 'to feel relaxed'.

This is addiction. Whether that sounds uncomfortable or crazy to people, it's the true measure of things.

[Dev]

I'm curious to know if it is OK to drink occasionaly, say at a get-together or party maybe once or twice a month? I am expecting honest answers here as I am grappling with this question.

[Gene]

Originally Posted by Dev

I'm curious to know if it is OK to drink occasionally, say at a get-together or party maybe once or twice a month? I am expecting honest answers here as I am grappling with this question.

Can you drink occasionally? when you take the first drink do you drink to excess? Do you have negative consequences when you drink that would not occur if you did not drink?

If you answer yes to any of the above questions the answer is that you might want to avoid alcohol entirely.

Try a thirty day trial!

[pharmboy]

I quit after reading Allen Carr's book. I didn't have any cravings for nearly 3 months. What has me taking a drink, again, is the social aspect. I know that Carr states that there is no such thing as a social drinker, but my experience tells me otherwise. People like to socialize with alcohol, and a non-drinker in the group makes them uncomfortable. A friend of mine doesn't like to drink at all, but will have one at social gatherings just to put others at ease. There is a benefit of alcohol lifting the mood and easing pain with the first few drinks. If you can stop there, the quality of conversation doesn't deteriorate. The problem is that even most "normal drinkers" fall into "the just one more trap". I believe, now, that alcohol should be treated like medicine- take 2 to 3 drinks as prescribed and quit there. The side effects of alcohol overdose (meaning anything over 4 drinks) are just too harmful. Now, if I can only take my own advice.

[carenkh]

How interesting this thread was revived!

I haven't read Carr's book. I was in recovery for almost 17 years, and was alcohol- and drug-free that entire time. About 2 years ago, I stopped feeling at home in 12-step meetings, and I guess it was about a year ago that I accepted that that was OK, it wasn't a failing on my part (or theirs!). A few months ago, I had a drink with a friend who was in town. It was an experiment... what will this be like? I enjoyed the high kind of feeling I got, but was TIRED the next few days, I mean just dragging. From one drink! My sleep pattern didn't change at all. Then, a few weeks ago, I had a glass of wine with dinner - that was one thing I missed most of all those 17 years, really good wine with really good food. I wasn't super-tired the next day. I thought - hmmm... this might be something I want to do. Not often, or even regularly, but once or twice a year? Why not? In those next few weeks, though, I realized I was feeling... lackluster. I wasn't so interested in setting goals, or furthering myself on my path. I was just - meh. Living. Not thriving. It's only in the last few days that I realized, I think it was the alcohol! I knew I needed to watch for depression - I've been prone to that in the past, and alcohol is a depressant. This didn't feel like depression, it was more... not caring. Yeah, I'm working a job I know isn't my true path. So what? Maybe it's what I'm meant to do; maybe I'm never supposed to go beyond this in my life.

I know that attitude can be attributed to lots of things, but alcohol is the only different thing I had done... and as it's cleared away, that feeling has cleared away. It was more a spiritual effect, than anything physical.

I'm choosing to stay away from alcohol - I want to THRIVE!

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by Dev

I'm curious to know if it is OK to drink occasionaly, say at a get-together or party maybe once or twice a month? I am expecting honest answers here as I am grappling with this question.

Ask yourself an honest question - Why do I need to drink to socialize? If you can't have fun without alcohol then you need to look for the reason within.
If people have a problem with you not drinking then they need to look closely at themselves and you have to question whether your friendships are built on alcohol.

Honest answer.

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by pharmboy

I quit after reading Allen Carr's book. I didn't have any cravings for nearly 3 months. What has me taking a drink, again, is the social aspect. I know that Carr states that there is no such thing as a social drinker, but my experience tells me otherwise. People like to socialize with alcohol, and a non-drinker in the group makes them uncomfortable. A friend of mine doesn't like to drink at all, but will have one at social gatherings just to put others at ease. There is a benefit of alcohol lifting the mood and easing pain with the first few drinks. If you can stop there, the quality of conversation doesn't deteriorate. The problem is that even most "normal drinkers" fall into "the just one more trap". I believe, now, that alcohol should be treated like medicine- take 2 to 3 drinks as prescribed and quit there. The side effects of alcohol overdose (meaning anything over 4 drinks) are just too harmful. Now, if I can only take my own advice.

Please don't feel offended, but you are just making excuses.

If social occasions can't thrive without alcohol then they arent social ocassions - they are gatherings to get drunk _ drugged - whatever you like - people try and kid themselves on that alcohol is different from speed or hash or e's - it's not - it might be branded differently and socially accepted but the reality is it's a strong dangerous drug that creeps up on people.

Putting others at ease?

Did you flunk your exams at school to fit in with the also-ran's?

Seriously. I know what your saying, but are you a strong independent person in control of your life or something weak and at the hands of vogue and vagaries?

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by carenkh

How interesting this thread was revived!

I haven't read Carr's book. I was in recovery for almost 17 years, and was alcohol- and drug-free that entire time. About 2 years ago, I stopped feeling at home in 12-step meetings, and I guess it was about a year ago that I accepted that that was OK, it wasn't a failing on my part (or theirs!). A few months ago, I had a drink with a friend who was in town. It was an experiment... what will this be like? I enjoyed the high kind of feeling I got, but was TIRED the next few days, I mean just dragging. From one drink! My sleep pattern didn't change at all. Then, a few weeks ago, I had a glass of wine with dinner - that was one thing I missed most of all those 17 years, really good wine with really good food. I wasn't super-tired the next day. I thought - hmmm... this might be something I want to do. Not often, or even regularly, but once or twice a year? Why not? In those next few weeks, though, I realized I was feeling... lackluster. I wasn't so interested in setting goals, or furthering myself on my path. I was just - meh. Living. Not thriving. It's only in the last few days that I realized, I think it was the alcohol! I knew I needed to watch for depression - I've been prone to that in the past, and alcohol is a depressant. This didn't feel like depression, it was more... not caring. Yeah, I'm working a job I know isn't my true path. So what? Maybe it's what I'm meant to do; maybe I'm never supposed to go beyond this in my life.

I know that attitude can be attributed to lots of things, but alcohol is the only different thing I had done... and as it's cleared away, that feeling has cleared away. It was more a spiritual effect, than anything physical.

I'm choosing to stay away from alcohol - I want to THRIVE!

And I guess you noticed after you 'tried it' - you 'tried it' again and again, and again.........

People fall into this trap and never get out.

[Dev]

Thanks for you input Stephen. You are right. Why can't I enjoy a social-do without alcohol and do I really need friendship built on alcohol. Definetly not. I give up alcohol this moment. I have half a bottle of whisky at home(meant for party) which will go down the drain today.

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by Dev

Thanks for you input Stephen. You are right. Why can't I enjoy a social-do without alcohol and do I really need friendship built on alcohol. Definetly not. I give up alcohol this moment. I have half a bottle of whisky at home(meant for party) which will go down the drain today.

Good on ya mate.

Dye know what I do at parties? I drink tea! In a cup!

I don't try and fake it with non-alcoholic beer or a soft drink.

I drink hot black tea and grin widely, chuckling inside as I see the madness unfurl slowly before my very eyes.

[Stephen]

I also have come subsequently to find harmony with the original teachings of the Buddha of late which strenthens my resove as a vegan and non drinker....

1. I undertake the training rule to abstain from taking life;
2. I undertake the training rule to abstain from taking what is not given;
3. I undertake the training rule to abstain from sexual misconduct;
4. I undertake the training rule to abstain from false speech; and
5. I undertake the training rule to abstain from liquors, wines, and other intoxicants, which are the basis for heedlessness.


Oh yes!

[carenkh]

Originally Posted by Stephen

And I guess you noticed after you 'tried it' - you 'tried it' again and again, and again.........

People fall into this trap and never get out.

No, that's not true. Each time was a conscious choice to drink. I'm not afraid of alcohol.

I don't think there's any *one* way of being with alcohol, that's the right way for everyone. People are vibrating at different levels. Because it affects me the way it does, doesn't mean it's wrong for someone else to drink occasionally.

[Gene]

Originally Posted by carenkh

How interesting this thread was revived!


I'm choosing to stay away from alcohol - I want to THRIVE!

I came to the 12 step programs and sobriety through another program which changed my life in 1986. For some time my attendance at meetings was what my life revolved around. Later I found myself not getting what I needed to progress in my life there.

I have remained sober since 1986 but find my experience, strength and hope in other settings today.

I think a lot of people outgrow the level of support in traditional meetings and I believe that is part of the process as we seek out other like minded, conscious people as our circle of support.

Would I recommend 12 step programs to people seeking help with an addiction? The answer is a qualified yes. I think the rigidity of the rooms sometimes (often) gets in the way of further recovery and is also often a substitute for the original compulsive behavior.

If I stop progressing I fall back into other behavior that is not really in my best interest. I think it is wonderful that you have discovered that drinking is still not in your best interest. Congratulations!

[Ravi Jaya]

Totga - If you honestly want to stop drinking (which it sounds like you do) and you can't stop, then you have a problem. It's that simple. Please do not let all of the other thoughts in your mind and what others tell you confuse the issue.

"After the first few chapters, as it was with the smoking book, I could feel the scales starting to fall from my eyes. I have read half of it so far, and already I know I never really want to drink alcohol again. A new chapter in my life is opening, and I figured I may as well share some of the journey with you."

This quote here from you illustrates my point. You already know that you never want to drink alcohol again, and yet, you keep drinking. This is not the behavior of a normal drinker. People who don't have a problem with alcohol do not contemplate over and over how they are going quit, they just quit.

"This is all behind me now though thanks to this rather odd little book. What I now realise is that alcohol isn’t something that helps me relax: it just numbs the pain. It’s not trendy and cool: it’s just peer pressure telling me I should behave a certain way. It’s not something I enjoy the taste of: the other stuff in the glass used to mask the flavour of alcohol is what I’m really enjoying the taste of. I don’t enjoy getting drunk, I actually dislike that bit quite a lot: it’s the friends I’m hanging out with I like. I certainly don’t enjoy the hangover the next morning: my body is reacting to a poison that my liver hates, dehydrates me, and leaves my stomach feeling awful."

This paragraph is full of things that you said that point to you most likely being an alcoholic. First, normal drinkers do not drink alcohol on a regular basis to "numb the pain." Second, you make excuses basically convincing yourself that what you are doing is OK such as, telling yourself, "you don't really like the taste." (Then why do you keep drinking?) Third, you don't like waking up dehydrated, stomach aching and in a hellish hungover state, yet, it keeps happening to you over and over again.

Normal drinkers get 1, maybe 2 times of being extremely hung over before they tell themselves, "I'm never doing this again!" And then guess what they do? They never do it again.

Your story has tons of other examples that point to you being an alcoholic, however; I will not get into all of them now. Also, only you can decide for yourself with 100% surety that you are an alcoholic. Although, it is good to discuss this with a sponsor to help you figure this out.

Please do not take my directness offensively. I've been there brother - I am both an addict and an alcoholic who abused alcohol and drugs for about 11 years. And today, I have about 4 years of sobriety, however, I needed to do a lot of work to get to where I am today.

[coy smile]

Originally Posted by Totga

it is literally a poison

yes that is right

Totga
all the best for you

[aggie]

i find this all at once interesting and confusing...this dance with alcohol that so many of us do...it can be so intoxicating in more than just the literal way....it is a social medium...it can relax you, it can put you to sleep...after work it can give you that ahhhhh that you need....if you are sad or depressed it can make you a little numb to the pain that you feel...it can make you a little less uptight and take the edge off, but not too much if taken in moderation....a little bit of red wine each day can even be healthy for you...wine can sometimes enhance a meal...maybe it is something that is almost cultural with you...it is a little bit of all of the above with me...plus being of italian and french heritage...a love affair indeed...sometimes wondering if there was a chance one could border on an abuser of alcohol...what makes one actually an alcoholic...if i enjoy a glass or two of wine almost ever day...if i look forward to it...could i be?...there i days i would like to get blitzed but i don't for functional reasons for health reasons, there is always that check...years ago there were times when i intentioanally got very drunk..i am a small woman...when i was really down...and almost hope something would accidently happen..but i am also blessed with a fast metabolislism...so it was not my time...and i would never do that again...do not feel the need to...now to be honest...i like the taste of wine, a lot...and pretty much only drink it with a meal....but other times...but my health, my life always holds me back from really letting go and getting wasted...not that some evenings i don't have a tad more than i should...but still it is a strange relationship....we are all vulnerable. we all have that potential given the right set of circumstances and a lapse in our checks and balances.....

[Ravi Jaya]

Totga - If you do really want to become sober, and you want to stop drinking, listen to people who have experience abusing alcohol, and have been able to obtain substantial clean-time, and now live happy lives.

I can tell you from experience, that there's a lot of fake advice out there. If someone who is not an alcoholic is trying to give you advice on how to stop drinking, the chances are that their advice is probably no good. There are many counselors out there who have book knowledge (masters degrees in psychology etc.), but have no life experience in being an alcoholic. And, their book knowledge will probably point you in the wrong direction.

If you want to stop drinking (which it sounds like you do), hook up with someone who abused alcohol in the past, and now is able to live clean and sober. There are plenty of people out there who would be willing to help you out for free. I was able to find these people through 12-step meetings and I would suggest that you check out some of these meetings as well.

[aggie]

not an abuser...but i still recognize that as good advice to anyone who needs...did not mean to sound as though i was given advice...just observation of the power and draw of alcohol in our society...and i wish anyone the very best of luck in their quest to overcome their dependency...those of us do not know what it is to really have that need...cannot fully understand how hard it can be to give up and conquer something...thank you ravi jaya

[joelr]

So there are actual people out there who find alcohol works as an anti-depressant?

After a divorce I spent 1 year on different combinations of prescribed meds but due to their low effectiveness I tried a phase of self-med. I was drinking beer and wine as a trial experiment and was drunk and MORE depressed.
I never drank again in that manner. Does anyone really believe it helps with depression or is that really just an excuse to drink?

As a warning to anyone struggling with depression, alcohol may lead to further depression or suicidal behavior.

[aggie]

i was told once that alcohol (and pot) would merely enhance or exacerbate what ever mood or emotion you were in...also told that alcohol would bring out one's true feelings...actually i think that just ends up being lack of discretion...but anyway...i consider myself a clinically depressed person...i currently take medication...and i drink mostly because i like the taste of wine with a meal or to relax...the only time i think it ever really depressed me more was when i was really, really down and drank because i was miserable and basically wanted to pass out and did not care if i ever woke up...i am not there anymore, so it does not affect me like that...

[Ravi Jaya]

Aggie - No problem, everyone on here has the best of intentions - we all just want to help.

Joelr - If someone is using alcohol as an anti-depressant, chances are they are probably an alcoholic. Normal drinkers probably do enjoy the effects of alcohol - Having a couple of drinks or beers on occasion probably lightens their mood and is enjoyable, but they don't drink to get rid of their depression.

For an alcoholic, an anti-depressant is exactly what alcohol is. In fact, alcoholics must have a drink to not feel depressed. Often times, when an alcoholic goes to a therapist trying to figure out what is wrong, the therapist will mistakenly diagnose the alcoholic with depression, when in fact, they actually have alcoholism. Therapists will commonly give alcoholics anti-depressants, and most of the time the alcoholic will simply drink on top of taking the newly prescribed anti-depressants. I know, this sounds crazy, but I have seen this happen many times with alcoholics I know and work with.

[openeyes]

I have no experience in trying to get over an addictive substance, but for my experience with alcohol:

I make a point of only drinking when in already in a good mood, and I mostly drink with meals unless it's a special occasion with friends. My usual intake is a shot glass of pinot noir with a meal. ~ three glasses would add up to one usual wine glass, so I average about half a glass of wine per day, which is the current ideal in the health press. Nowhere near enough to get me drunk, but enjoyable. To drink such a small amount and not have the rest of the wine go bad, I either get high end box wine or spray nitrogen into the bottle to reduce oxidation.

Half a Glass of Wine for Longer Life

"light, long-term consumption of all types of alcohol, up to 20 grams a day, extended life by about two years, compared to men who drank no alcohol. But wine was best, according to the researchers.

Men who drank only wine, and less than half a glass, lived 2 1/2 years longer than those who drank beer or spirits, and nearly five years longer than men who drank no booze at all."

If I ever find that even the small amount that I drink is detrimental, I'll be fine with dropping it and focusing on hot cocoa