Existential Depression

[mattp]

Has anybody been diagnosed with or had this issue? How did you learn to cope with it?

I recently figured out what has been bothering me for many years. When I was 18 I had a severe car accident and then was diagnosed with a disease that can make you paralyzed at times. I have had my heart stop 3 different times. I struggled with the meaning of life/purpose question for years. I am now 36 and still haven't really figured it out. This really bothered me and I would eventually just shutdown trying to figure everything out. Recently, I ran upon an article about Existential Depression and it fit everything I have been feeling. It has helped me tremendously, just knowing other people struggle with this issue. Everyone else in my family or friends do not think in the same way I do.

Any comments are welcome.

MAtt

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

I had not heard that particular term before. I did struggle a lot with the whole "what does it all mean" question throughout my life. I can't say I have found a definitive answer, but it no longer haunts me like it used to either.

I am sorry to hear you are feeling this way. I just wanted to send you some love and let you know someone is listening. I hope you are able to find what you are looking for.

[Shamou]

On existential depression... see here...

Existential Depression

A specific kind of depression, known as existential depression, is brought on by a crisis of meaning or purpose in one's life.

Any significant transition, especially a change of roles in family or work, can trigger this crisis in meaning. The importance of dealing with existential issues should not be underestimated.

A number of clinicians have reported that depression (as well as Chronic Fatigue Syndrome) has a strong connection with a person's lack of success in finding his passion-i.e., not being involved in work/activities that feed the core self.

When one does not feel passionate about his or her life, work, or loves, he or she has the potential to experience existential depression. Sometimes, treating existential depression may require major life changes.

.

[ZHereford]

Existentialism is a term used in philosophy which in its most basic definition means "existence precedes essence".

Philosophers who are known as existentialists include Kierkegaard, Nietzsche, Sartre and Camus. They all put forth (and I agree with them) that we as humans are responsible for making our lives meaningful, in other words life has whatever meaning we give it. There are both Christian and atheistic existentialists.

The dilemma for many people is that they have a hard time figuring out and deciding what is meaningful and that could lead to depression and meaninglessness.

Here's how I find philosophy contributes to personal development.

[ethereal]

My suggestion is to look into spirituality, helped me with my existential crises

[mattp]

I think that my problem for a long time is defining a purpose for my life. Also, spirituality has been difficult because of the uncertainity of the correct path. Most religions seem to be an invention of humanity and not always true to observable facts.

[ZHereford]

Originally Posted by mattp

I think that my problem for a long time is defining a purpose for my life.

I would say that "to be the best you can be", and making the most of your abilities is a good place to start.

We all question our purpose at different times in our lives and that's a good thing because we need to be able to define it for ourselves.

I feel that collectively we are here to develop and evolve. As individuals we have different talents and abilities which first of all, we inherently need to express, and secondly are able to contribute to others. We all have something to offer ourselves and each other, and that's what I think we're here to do. We're here to evolve, express, experience and share.

[Keith]

If you can't see what the point of life is, pursue some things that even vaguely seem like they might contain hints. Volunteer to help at a homeless shelter. Hike through the wilderness. Whatever seems like it might contain hints as to Truth.

Sometimes we can't see a way forward from where we are. But if we move - even if the direction turns out completely wrong - we may have a much better idea view of where we are.

I reckon, anyway.

P.S. ZHereford, your philosophy page seems awefully focussed on western (specifically ancient Greek) philosophy. Do you intend to cover eastern philosophy as well?

[m0vingon]

If you haven't read Man's Search for Meaning by Frankl, it's a memoir of his observations during his time in Auschwitz. Frankl is thought of as a significant contributor to the movement of existential psychology. The book is short, but moving and while it won't help you determine your purpose in life, it will very poignantly point out the importance of having determined your purpose.

Issues of mortality- which you refer to in your post, are key in existential psychology and in life. Everyone comes to that point at some time though most don't get there until they are progressing in age.

I guess if you were my client and I was sitting across from you, my first question would be "Why is it so important to you to know or understand the purpose/meaning of life? And what would you do with your life if you realized that there really is no answer to that query?" Challenging the thought pattern may lead you to new insight.

[Shamou]

Excellent post and very well said m0vingon... very profound insight there...

Man's Search for Meaning by Frankl is one of the most powerful book that I have read... and I think a must read for everyone here...

Thank you for that post...

.

[ZHereford]

Originally Posted by Keith

.....P.S. ZHereford, your philosophy page seems awefully focussed on western (specifically ancient Greek) philosophy. Do you intend to cover eastern philosophy as well?

Western philosophy and civilization pretty much started with the Greeks and I've just begun to write about it on my site. So far I've just covered the big guns - Socrates, Plato and Aristotle but I don't intend on stopping there. I'm working my way down the line throughout the history of philosophy. Down the road I expect to cover some eastern philosophy as well. It's a work in progress and one that's going to take a while.

Thanks for asking.

[Enlightenment]

Hi Mattp,

I can relate to what you are saying.Sometimes things happen to us and we don't know why. You sound intelligent, so I think it is worse for intellectual people because we try to find out why. However, this can be a blessing in disguise. I am sure there are so many people in your situation, or trying to come to grips with whatever tragedy that has happened to them -- for example, people who are permenantly paralysed. Maybe you can help them in some way.

I suggest you read Victor Frankl's 'Man's Search for Meaning'. It is his story of what he went through as a Jew in Auschwitz. His basic premise is that you can survive anything if you can find meaning in it. Not necessarily a positive twist on it, but some reason why it happened. Millions have read his book and benefited from it and because of this, his suffering made a difference... that was the meaning of it all.

Anyway, I wish you luck and God Bless.

[september]

I have a non-Man's Search for Meaning book to recommend. I just finished reading Buddhism Without Beliefs, by Stephen Batchelor. It is short, but powerful, and in the end, uplifting. He redescribes dharma practice not as an orthodoxy, but as a powerful process through which to conduct your life and express/release your anguish. His thoughts on the mystery and wonder of life are indispensible.

He describes a culture of awakening at the end which I see in this community in many ways (albeit imperfect ones).

I am an agnostic atheist or according to (or according to Nica Lalli, I am just nothing), and this book is probably best primed for someone in that position. However, if your spiritual journey is leading you elsewhere, don't be afraid to peruse this book, either. It is very grounded, and no matter what religion you hail from, it will make you consider its purpose further.

Happy seeking.

[ThoughtAddict]

Hey MattP.

The place you are is tough. I've lived there, too. Still go for the occasional vacation. It isn't easy, because there is no pat answer anybody can give you... at least none that feel truly authentic to you. The first step for me to getting out of that place was realizing that nobody can give me the answer. No matter how much I might like to cede control, it was my responsibility and burden to answer it for myself. The realization is similar to something Steve talks about in his first podcast. Though it may seem impossible now, you can get yourself to a place where you can find meaning.

Now, because of that, nothing I say is an answer. The only thing I can give you and the thing so many truly intelligent and thoughtful people have given you on these forums is another way of looking at it. It is your choice to take it or leave it. There may be part of you that wants to hold on to meaninglessness. I understand if you do, though it is a painful path to walk. Some people just find that more authentic. Let me recommend, though, that you make an effort to explore other ways of looking at the world. If they are lacking, then you can take on another. Remember, it is your choice. As Sartre and many other existentialists have said, everyone is "doomed to be free". That freedom is a great burden, but also your largest gift. You are free even to reject that you are free, free to take on another perspective, free to change your life, or free to stay the same.

So, if you want to change (which it sounds like you do) and you're willing to explore different perspectives (it sounds like you are), start looking for new perspectives on meaning. Could the world be a meaningless place with meaninglessness being its most admirable condition? If there is no overarching purpose imposing itself upon us, then we are absolutely free to do whatever we want. We can spend our lives making beautiful cheese sculptures... and that would be perfectly alright. Perhaps personal meaning is what is important. You may feel that there is a certain role a human being ought to fulfill, a way of acting toward other people that you should spend your life fostering and working to encourage. This way of acting doesn't need to be important for another purpose... it may be important just because it is right.

My overarching point is to explore. You might hit on something that works for you. Even if you don't, your understanding will be much richer. And let me recommend a reading that helped me. William James is a pragmatist... pragmatism being a sort of positive existentialism that deals less with the big questions and more with everyday experience. My brother called it "nonalcoholic existentialism", to which a brilliant friend quipped, "You'd rather a drunken philosophy guide your life?" Consider it a new way of looking at the same conclusions. James' "The Will to Believe" confronts the issue you're dealing with. It can be found here: http://falcon.jmu.edu/~omearawm/ph101willtobelieve.html

The best of luck to you in this. Please don't hesitate to reply or PM me if you'd like to discuss this further. It's a tough thing to experience, especially alone.

[Smarky]

Hmm This thread could not have come at a more timely time.

I'm aperson that things a lot about life, I can be pretty deep. A few years back I shared a few thoughts with some people on a forum more as a complete rant at how upset I was and having nowhere else to vent this. Someone refered me to an article on Existential depression, I read about it and It was like a breath of fresh air, finally someone understood!

One of my favorite bands, the lead singer I belive suffers for the same problems, Just from reading things that they have said and as this person is a big inspration for me, I know there soultion is to find a bigger purpose and do something great, to create that meaning. Reading interviews they have given, I can see that now they are much more happy, yet they still have the same ideas and thoughts, they just look at life in a more positive way.

So to me I don't think it's a matter of arguing these points, it's a way of finding higher purpose in life. I suffer greatly still (boy do i, self harm, sucidial etc), so I'm still really struggling with this.

So you really have to find your own purpose and meaning, that is hard because then you have to make that your whole world, when the rest of the world really appears so shallow and will constantly want to drag you into that end of the pool!

To me, personally. I think I find a lot of meaning from others too, My meaning comes from wanting to create something really great and great relationships with others.

Although others are a great huge problem, the world is full of complete idiots and people detirminded to rid the world of any purpose or meaning that I'm searching for. The trouble is you can't trust other people, because you can't control them (and i'm really not saying this because I think we should be able too). But this leaves you with a really big problem if this is how you find a lot of meaning. I really have a big problem knowing or finding how excatly I relate to other people and where I fit in.

I welcome this discussion because these issues are killing me!

[Lychee]

Originally Posted by Smarky

Hmm This thread could not have come at a more timely time.

I'm aperson that things a lot about life, I can be pretty deep. A few years back I shared a few thoughts with some people on a forum more as a complete rant at how upset I was and having nowhere else to vent this. Someone refered me to an article on Existential depression, I read about it and It was like a breath of fresh air, finally someone understood!

One of my favorite bands, the lead singer I belive suffers for the same problems, Just from reading things that they have said and as this person is a big inspration for me, I know there soultion is to find a bigger purpose and do something great, to create that meaning. Reading interviews they have given, I can see that now they are much more happy, yet they still have the same ideas and thoughts, they just look at life in a more positive way.

So to me I don't think it's a matter of arguing these points, it's a way of finding higher purpose in life. I suffer greatly still (boy do i, self harm, sucidial etc), so I'm still really struggling with this.

So you really have to find your own purpose and meaning, that is hard because then you have to make that your whole world, when the rest of the world really appears so shallow and will constantly want to drag you into that end of the pool!

To me, personally. I think I find a lot of meaning from others too, My meaning comes from wanting to create something really great and great relationships with others.

Although others are a great huge problem, the world is full of complete idiots and people detirminded to rid the world of any purpose or meaning that I'm searching for. The trouble is you can't trust other people, because you can't control them (and i'm really not saying this because I think we should be able too). But this leaves you with a really big problem if this is how you find a lot of meaning. I really have a big problem knowing or finding how excatly I relate to other people and where I fit in.

I welcome this discussion because these issues are killing me!

Right on I completely understand.

[beautyscientist]

I don't know what the meaning of life is, but Camus is a good read. I particularly recommend The Foreigner (or the Outsider as it is sometimes translated). I

[Dharma]

Matt,

You have a serious disease, which many people also have.... it's called the mind.

You're searching for purpose in a reality where only the moment exists. You can only experience past and future as mind projections from the present moment.

You want purpose to your life. Purpose, typically, is about the future, not about the present moment.

Definition of purpose: (1) something set up as an object or end to be attained. (You could also call it a goal.)

"To be attained" implies future. You don't have a future, just a present moment. So, in thinking you need a purpose other than what you're doing right now can, yes, can get you depressed. Always looking ahead thinking you should be more than you are.... Everyone else has a purpose and not me... I should be doing great things with my life....

m0vingon is right on with his response:

"Why is it so important to you to know or understand the purpose/meaning of life? And what would you do with your life if you realized that there really is no answer to that query?" Challenging the thought pattern may lead you to new insight.

The mind will get so worried that it feels it doesn't have a direction to flow in. And, by Gods it better be the right direction to flow in too! Because we can do some great self-abuse if we pick the wrong one. So we might as well pick none.

Right now my purpose is to communicate, teach, and see you as a reflection of me. Later today I know it's going to shift to my photographer flow, and tomorrow I get to be a student in a GIS/geospatial technology class. Those last two things are future and they might or might not happen.

If I had a purpose for the moment, what would it be? Something like: I choose to experience more of me and experience flow, ease, space, fire, and joy.

Now I can do that anywhere and anytime in anything I do. Be it healing work, firefighting, photography, backpacking, counseling, or even geospatial technology class.

Eckhart Tolle's "Power of Now" is a good primer for spending more time in the moment and out of the mind. You might want to check it out.

[mattp]

Wow, some really good replies. I have been doing better at just living life since I figured out what has been bothering me. I still get aggravated if something sets me back or seems too much, but I don't dwell on it for days at a time(only hours). So far so good.

Sometimes it is amazing when you look at it how complex the world is. I used to think I wanted to learn everything, but I now know that it isn't necessary. There will always be someone to go to that knows a little more about something or has a different viewpoint that you never thought of.

[Brendon Colby]

Yeah that's pretty much how my life is. I still don't understand it and I still don't feel at peace even though I've read nearly every book mentioned here, spent a lot of time in therapy, done a lot of thinking about it, etc... I seem to spend most of my life in a state of complete unhappiness, dissatisfaction, unrest, anxiety, dread, restlessness. It's like a blow horn in my hears that mostly only I can hear (I know I'm not the only one!). It like an existential funk or black cloud. It follows me everywhere. I don't seem to have a footing in life (but somehow life does seem to work!). Sometimes it feels like I'm trapped in the matrix or a holodeck gone haywire. Life doesn't feel real but where's the exit!? That's what I want to know. Certainly one exit is death, OK, but that seems too obvious, and honestly I have no idea what, if anything, exists after death! So what is REAL? How to I "get out"? Am I just trapped in my mind? Is it a matter of daily meditation practice? I feel that I have so much potential, but this existential business just saps most of it!

[ZHereford]

The only thing existentialism states is that you're responsible for finding meaning and purpose to your life. Is that the part you find difficult?

I know that we all go through questioning times and I think that's part of maturing and coming to terms with who we are. For the most part it's usually a temporary state.

[ThoughtAddict]

Do a thought experiment. Imagine the world is all just an illusion--a dream. However, you can't wake up until you naturally wake up and you can't control exactly when that is. Nothing you do has any meaning outside the dream, since it all vanishes when you wake up. You can spend your time in the dream doing anything you'd like. My ultimate question to you is whether this situation is frustrating or invigorating.

You have a brilliant opportunity in the dream to do whatever you like. Nobody (besides the dream-people, who will vanish when you wake anyway) can tell you that you're wrong to become a world-famous cheese sculptor. Only those transient dream-people can judge you for living how you'd like. You could build a multi-million dollar dream empire or have a sizzling romance. You can fall in love, have kids, go to school, learn a million tiny, beautiful things about the dream world, explore, write great poetry, see beautiful places, live an amazing dream-life...

Or you can be bored and wait to wake up, watching whatever is on dream-TV. You can spend your time worrying about what's happening in this dream-world, or you can live it.

In my experience, boredom, fear, laziness, and depression all have the same solution: action.

[Enlightenment]

Originally Posted by ThoughtAddict

Do a thought experiment. Imagine the world is all just an illusion--a dream. However, you can't wake up until you naturally wake up and you can't control exactly when that is. Nothing you do has any meaning outside the dream, since it all vanishes when you wake up. You can spend your time in the dream doing anything you'd like. My ultimate question to you is whether this situation is frustrating or invigorating.

You have a brilliant opportunity in the dream to do whatever you like. Nobody (besides the dream-people, who will vanish when you wake anyway) can tell you that you're wrong to become a world-famous cheese sculptor. Only those transient dream-people can judge you for living how you'd like. You could build a multi-million dollar dream empire or have a sizzling romance. You can fall in love, have kids, go to school, learn a million tiny, beautiful things about the dream world, explore, write great poetry, see beautiful places, live an amazing dream-life...

Or you can be bored and wait to wake up, watching whatever is on dream-TV. You can spend your time worrying about what's happening in this dream-world, or you can live it.

In my experience, boredom, fear, laziness, and depression all have the same solution: action.

I have never heard it put that way. What a great outlook!

[SeriousKidding.com]

Existential depression: my first bout with it came in college some decades ago. In an English class, we read Satre's Nausea. God, it was absolutely horrible. It did make me naseous. That's about as depressing as it got for me. And, I was already depressed before I read it. Not a good combo. I DO agree that ACTION is the SOLUTION. Get help from a professional. ASK your Higher Power, if you have one, for help. Decide what you want, and go get it. That is my mantra. I've been a sufferer of depression for years. But, jumping on my mountain bike, thinking, writing, and NEVER EVER GIVING UP, plus the right medication and therapist, has made a world of difference. Did I mention getting sober was a huge help?! Good luck, my friend. --grant "brad"

[Shamou]

The theory has been put forth that depression is a form of self-hate... the ultimate expression of which being suicide...

Now, it is not a theory that has universal acceptance... but it could be an avenue to be explored by those who do suffer from depression...

.

[brand3n]

There's a lot of good thoughts and suggestions here. The truth is that existential depression is fairly common among, though not exclusive to, highly gifted people. In fact history is littered with them, from Picasso to Kurt Cobain. There's many reasons for this, but the most common is likely the higher brain functions common in highly gifted people. Many people deal with it in different ways, many of which have already been suggested. Some find comfort in reading philosophy or finding religion. Others work through their pain by taking on a creative, musical or even athletic endeavor that challenges them. Others still, maintain that the entire belief system of existentialism itself is flawed, turning to other belief systems, such as Ken Wilber's integral theory. I haven't personally read any of his books, though I disagree with his stance that existentialism offers no solutions.

I have suffered from existential depression for most of my life. It came on fairly early in my life, when I was roughly 8 - 10 years old. I've struggled through it's various forms and reincarnations ever since. From 'the fear of mediocrity' to the classic 'Adolescent Alienation', the ' search for identity' to the hyper-critical and self damaging behaviors it often leads to, I have lived existentialism in all of it's forsaken glory.

There is one great insight I can share from my experiences and Shakespeare said it best: "To Thine Own Self Be True." Simple, and yet not simple at all. When I said that I disagreed with the idea that existentialism offers no answers, that's because I believe it offers only answers, just not the simple one that we all want to hear. We all make our own meaning. That is it, and yet it is everything. It offers nothing and yet everything that we could ever desire. The freedom to truly be. The freedom to find our own true passion. The freedom to think for ourselves and make our own decisions and create our own personal philosophies. The freedom to walk away from the crowd and go our own way. The freedom to live authentically. The freedom to change. Just find what you love to do and do it. no pretense. no buts, no what-ifs. Just do it. Invest your whole self into it. Let it become you. As an artist, this is the only way I've ever known anyone to truly be. So be. Good Luck to you my friend.

[Tigerlilly]

I love your post brand3n, and you're perfectly right. Still I think to be true to yourself is probably the greatest challenge of all, and only few of us have the privilege to grow up in an environment that encourages us to be ourselves, so usually we struggle against years of being anyone but ourselves.

This thread contains some really inspiring ideas. I've read Man's Search For Meaning, but didn't like the idea of a self-imposed meaning, though this is a personal preference cause I guess I like to believe in a purpose that roots in something more reliable than myself.

And I think this attitude mainly comes from the fact that I still have trouble in saying this is ego, this is others, and this is my true self speaking, and that for someone living in tune with his true self the purpose he chooses and his soul's purpose are indeed the same thing.

I had some difficulty reading through The Will to Believe, but some parts of it I found truly inspiring, for they deal with the problems I'm facing a lot in believing something, myself being born into a society where truth is treated like a Godess and it's a matter of pride for her sake to be reasonable, to be logical, in other words sceptical, weighing evidence and ending up doubting things to death.

To hear that „We have the right to believe at our own risk any hypothesis that is live enough to tempt our will.“ for me sounds like the call of a herald to move out of doubt and into action. At my own peril, but then I can't really imagine anything much worse than this self-devouring, excruciating suffering that comes from being eaten up alive by doubts, by being caught up in endless arguments with your own mind turned into a whole committee.

Caught up in this endless merrygoaround of maybe it sometimes truly is a blessing that sets you free to simply stand up and say "This is it. This is what I believe in, with best intentions this is what I'll live by and die by, and in this I'm done with doubt."

And it's better to believe in something that lifts up your spirit and act upon it with best intentions than to be caught up in internal arguments, to be paralyzed by this fear, Williams so keenly sees, of being duped. I agree with him that it is better to run the risk of being duped than to be a slave to the fear of it. I loved the following quote from The Will to Believe so I'll post it here.

"Biologically considered, our minds are as ready to grind out falsehood as veracity, and he who says, " Better go without belief forever than believe a lie!" merely shows his own preponderant private horror of becoming a dupe. He may be critical of many of his desires and fears, but this fear he slavishly obeys. He cannot imagine any one questioning its binding force. For my own part, I have also a horror of being duped; but I can believe tbat worse things tban being doped may happen to a man in this world: so Clifford's exhortation has to my ears a thoroughly fantastic sonnd. It is like a general informing his soldiers that it is better to keep out of battle forever than to risk a single wound. Not so are victories either over enemies or over nature gained.“

Amen.

[The Cloud]

I am currently in rather a state that I think can be characterized as existential depression. I was very strongly into finding a purpose for my life, finding a purpose for everything I did. Then, one day, I had a realization that I don't think I can put into words, but I'll try. I realized that there is no "I", that there is no "you", that there is no physical representation of "me" and so therefore "I" do not exist, strictly speaking. This was an extraordinary realization, but then I tried to fit it into the frame of what I currently believed, I tried to understand it all in terms of my life purpose and goals. And I lost it, I lost the realization. And I have recently figured out that the reason I lost it was because the idea of self-improvement and life purpose are useless without an "I" to apply them to. I was trying to fit a more comprehensive and accurate view of the universe into a frame that it could not fit in. So now, after much thought, I have realized that there is no me or you, there just is. The universe just is, there is no improvement, and if I just allow myself to be, just be, no work, no effort, to just be then the purpose of my life will be fulfilled. The problem being that trying to just be when there is a "you" that is not willing to accept that he doesn't exist is, well, depressing. I know that this is probably way beyond anything that you can understand at this point, I know that it is beyond anything I could have comprehended before my realization, but think on it. Don't worry about purpose or improvement, you're already perfect, you just have to be now.

[ThoughtAddict]

Tigerlily,

I'm glad you found James to be inspiring. His work, though difficult at times, is inspiring and offers a very relaxed, constructive way of looking at the world. His thought isn't perfect, but he doesn't really care. It helps. That's what matters... I've read more and more of him and enjoy it, even when he gets overly scholastic.

Cloud,

I thought I was understanding you until you wrote, "There is no physical representation of 'me'". My body seems very actually "me". It represents me to the outside world, I think. Do I misunderstand your point?
Perhaps rather than trying to improve, you should explore reality in whatever ways you can. If a way is better than another then we should definitely use it. Guess and check, let it flow. There's nothing wrong, and lightness of heart is better than such painful seriousness.

[The Cloud]

Sounds to me like you mostly got my point, I agree with you that self-improvement is pointless, because it assumes imperfection. As for the "me" thing, is your body really you? So if your body loses an arm, you are less? Of course not, I think we can both agree on that. So, is your mind you? Your thoughts and feelings? But what are thoughts and feelings, is there any objective way to measure them? So the only logical conclusion I can come to is that "I" don't exist, at least in an objective sense, because "I" am just a concept, an idea used to represent a conglomerate of ideas that is perceived as "me." So, if that is a correct evaluation, then there is no I to do things, and therefore everything that the body and brain does just happens, no different than how a rock happens to fall when left unsupported, or the wind happens to blow. This body and brain is just something that is part of how the universe unfolds, of how it happens. I hope this clarifies things.