Button pushing and pushees

[wolfgang]

Some say button pushing is a good way to help someone else see something that can be addressed.

That if you get a button pushed it is an opportunity for growth and so then we should welcome those that do push buttons.

I would say the pushers are as much attached to something to look at as the receiver. Or even more so.

If a button pusher is actively operating to antagonize someone else, that is their behavior pattern that they learned and thought was valuable to use in interactions. The motivation is often not for trying to help someone else grow.

[Prinie]

My mom pushes my buttons all the time. She's the only person who pushes my buttons in that way so I know it's because she has quite a bit of power over me. It's minimized over the years as I've become more self-reliant. When confronted, she says it's her way of showing she cares but now I know she's projecting her own insecurities onto me and I've told her so. I have been examining different ways of relating to her now because despite our conversations on her behavior (we've been having the same conversation for many years) she hasn't changed and won't until she realizes the real reason for her behavior and decides to change it. So...in the meantime, I'll be disengaging. lol

Hope I stayed on topic...not sure if I did.

[cacheborn]

Button pushing goes against the very first of the forum rules.

Exercise good judgment, reasonableness, and mutual respect - This is a community for smart people who share an interest in personal growth, so please treat it as such. Personal attacks and name-calling as well as profane, pornographic, racist, sexist, or otherwise demeaning or offensive messages will not be tolerated. Recognize that there's a human being behind every post, and behave accordingly.

If anyone is of the opinion that it's a way towards growth, this is not the place to try it.

[ssandra]

From my own point of view:

If someone pushes a button for me, it is powerful and empowering for me to examine that button and disconnect that.

If someone continuously pushes (or attempts to push) buttons, they clearly do not prefer for me to feel good and wonderful in my life, and therefor they will not be in my life (at least, minimize the time I spend with them).

There are ways that are way more empowering to help people move along and grow then purposefully push their buttons.

However, if and when buttons accidentally get pushed, the best thing to do is to examine that button and disconnect it so it won't be a problem anymore in the future.

If I accidentally push someones button I would suggest that that is what they do. However, I will always allow them the freedom to do so or not, and take care (as much as possible) to not push that button for them again in the future.

(this last bit only when it is reasonable. If someone has a button about me using swear words, I'll be careful with that. If someone has a button about me saying the word "I" I won't be so careful).

[Cado]

Originally Posted by cacheborn

Button pushing goes against the very first of the forum rules.



If anyone is of the opinion that it's a way towards growth, this is not the place to try it.

Here's the thing: what is button pushing? Is it inherently disrespectful or is it anything that sets someone off, be it intentional or otherwise?

Steve himself has done quite a bit of button pushing through his various articles, like "10 reasons you should never have a religion" and the whole nazi-eggs thing. Of course, none of those were directed at any one person, so while they set off a flurry of responses and they were clearly meant to push buttons they're a tad different than what we're talking about here. Still, it reveals a key principle: don't make things personal.

So what kind of button pushing can we do within those bounds? Quite a bit, depending on who you're dealing with. That can be either good or bad; it depends largely on the context. If it's happening in relation to controversial topic it's unlikely to do more than add fuel to the fire.

Button pushing is going to happen in human interactions, the question is how each individual will deal with it and whether or not anyone involved meant to do it. There's a big difference between repeatedly poking at someone when there's no intent to communicate and, say, getting on someone's nerves for being you, thoroughly deconstructing their arguments, getting intense (without going into what I'd call "attack mode"), etc.

In short, if someone says something about an idea and it's taken personally, ie it pushes someone's buttons, that's incredibly valuable. If it's just an attempt to get some kind of response, usually an unfavorable one for the sake of one's own entertainment (trolling), then we're better off without it.

[Cado]

Originally Posted by ssandra

There are ways that are way more empowering to help people move along and grow then purposefully push their buttons.

I'd say the exception to this is when you're dealing with someone who's so wrapped up in their own perspective that they won't see things any other way when you try to be reasonable and up front with them. The ideal, then, is to push their buttons hard enough that they're pushed beyond the threshold of their current awareness and begin to understand things in a new light. It's a bit tricky and not something I'd recommend on a regular basis, certainly not in an environment like this, but it's pretty effective if you understand the person you're dealing with.

More often than not, though, this kind of button pushing is best used to get something you want by causing the other person to sabotage themselves. That's a growth experience in its own right but it's never the instigator's intent or concern.

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by Cado

I'd say the exception to this is when you're dealing with someone who's so wrapped up in their own perspective that they won't see things any other way when you try to be reasonable and up front with them. The ideal, then, is to push their buttons hard enough that they're pushed beyond the threshold of their current awareness and begin to understand things in a new light. It's a bit tricky and not something I'd recommend on a regular basis, certainly not in an environment like this, but it's pretty effective if you understand the person you're dealing with.

More often than not, though, this kind of button pushing is best used to get something you want by causing the other person to sabotage themselves. That's a growth experience in its own right but it's never the instigator's intent or concern.

In the case of someone being so wrapped up in their own perspective, button pushing will only get them defensive and not acknowledge that there was a button being pushed... just you being an ass...

What I would do in this case, if I were really invested in getting them to expand their perspective, is to talk to them from their own perspective, and expand from there.

VERY simplified example; telling a Christian who is hating on gay people about the 10 commandments, and "love thy neighbor" and "he who is without sin..." etc.

I believe that taking that approach works better then starting to kiss another girl in front of him/her.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by cacheborn

Button pushing goes against the very first of the forum rules.



If anyone is of the opinion that it's a way towards growth, this is not the place to try it.

I don't think it's nearly as cut and dry as you have interpreted that paragraph.

[Cado]

Originally Posted by ssandra

In the case of someone being so wrapped up in their own perspective, button pushing will only get them defensive and not acknowledge that there was a button being pushed... just you being an ass...

What I would do in this case, if I were really invested in getting them to expand their perspective, is to talk to them from their own perspective, and expand from there.

VERY simplified example; telling a Christian who is hating on gay people about the 10 commandments, and "love thy neighbor" and "he who is without sin..." etc.

I believe that taking that approach works better then starting to kiss another girl in front of him/her.

Again, it really depends on how far you push it, although I'd actually consider your method as an example of button pushing in that scenario. You end up implying, "I know your beliefs better than you do" which, while it's often true, doesn't jive well with people like that. (In fact that's usually what I end up doing when I'm pushing buttons, whether I intend to or not.)

The point, when pushing someone to emotional extremes, is to bring them to a place where they realize how utterly powerless they are when they let that control them. The more wound up they get, the more intense the reaction is, the quicker it will stop working for them. The effect usually isn't immediate-that is to say it's more like planting a seed than it is a spontaneous 180-but when people are forced into a position where they can either make things worse or change they will eventually change. People only do what works for them on some level and there's no quicker way to make something not work than to exploit its tendency to make them miserable.

And to clarify: this isn't about what works in general, I'm talking about scenarios where everything else has failed or you need something rapid. (I'm also talking about things which go quite a bit beyond lesbians kissing in front of a homophobe.) Speed almost always does a bit of collateral damage and burning through old/destructive habits and thought-patterns by wearing down your resistance is the quickest way forward. It can be dangerous-quite so, in fact-but it does work.

It's a lot more volatile when initiating it in someone else but if there's a reason it needs to happen, and you can't just ignore or circumvent the individual in question, it's always on the table.

Here? That particular scenario would result in one or both of the members involved getting banned long before it reached that point. In life? It seems like everyone faces something like that at some point. Not everyone that has control over something we want or need is willing or able to communicate in a reasonable, win-win sort of way. What's funny is that they will the end of their own paradigm through their intense resistance, or at the least they necessitate sacrifices on their part for ideology. If I may return to the homophobe well, there are few statements as powerful as losing contact with a child because they wouldn't accept them as they are. Most people in this world don't change much, least of all the ones in that camp, but for some of them that's exactly the impetus they need. Anything that can spark the question, "was it worth it?" stands a chance of snapping them free and if you're taking this course of action to shake the bed that's what you're hoping for.

[cacheborn]

Originally Posted by Cado

Steve himself has done quite a bit of button pushing through his various articles, like "10 reasons you should never have a religion" and the whole nazi-eggs thing. Of course, none of those were directed at any one person, so while they set off a flurry of responses and they were clearly meant to push buttons they're a tad different than what we're talking about here. Still, it reveals a key principle: don't make things personal.

It's difficult to maintain that during a one-on-one discussion. In principle, one can always say that nothing anyone says can hurt you, but in practice that's not the way things go. More often than not, people take liberties and if someone is offended they put the blame on the person who got offended.

You cannot drag people into maturity. When they are ready, they will come round to it. Or not. So if someone is adamant on his/her POV, I prefer to leave it at that.

[cacheborn]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

I don't think it's nearly as cut and dry as you have interpreted that paragraph.

Most of the button pushing I have seen did violate one rule or another.

[aelle]

Originally Posted by cacheborn

Most of the button pushing I have seen did violate one rule or another.

I have experienced what I would describe as button-pushing with positive consequences and I don't think they were breaking the rules. It came from Angela at least once, and a few times by other members.

What I mean by my buttons being pushed is an issue that brings out in me a violent emotional reaction, often anger, often irrationally. It doesn't need to be an attack, an insult or a slur to have that effect, and in fact it's much more interesting when my reaction is not a response to an obviously aggravating comment.

Also, the times I have experienced button pushing as positive were when it was a one-shot - the poster then stepped back and gave me the time and space to consider my reaction (if I felt like it) and work it out (again, if I felt like it).
When there's a rapid fire of button pushing, the main reason for my annoyance clearly becomes the fact that the other person is being a douche by deliberately provoking me, rather than my own issues. The reasonable thing to do at this time is to enforce my boundaries (by requesting that the person stop or by walking out/blocking them if that is not enough).

Personal development community or not, we have a right to control our anger triggers, and to deal with our blocks on our own terms, with the time frame we want. Repeatedly provoking someone into growth is disrespectful.

[Mounds]

Originally Posted by aelle

Also, the times I have experienced button pushing as positive were when it was a one-shot - the poster then stepped back and gave me the time and space to consider my reaction (if I felt like it) and work it out (again, if I felt like it).

You nailed it right here.

In the class I just finished, we talked extensively about pushing buttons. When someone presses your buttons with reckless abandon, they become the button. Their presence pushes it.

A good button-push is when it shakes your version of reality and makes you think. When someone presents me with a personal limitation and we happen to be in good rapport, I push that button. I only do it once because I know that if it persists, it will present itself again at a later date. If it doesn't persist, great!

In my own experience, it takes weeks to months before the button goes away. I worked at disconnecting my anxiety button in early August of this year and in October, I noticed I wasn't anxious anymore. There really is a timeframe involved.

-Tim

[cacheborn]

Originally Posted by aelle

Also, the times I have experienced button pushing as positive were when it was a one-shot - the poster then stepped back and gave me the time and space to consider my reaction (if I felt like it) and work it out (again, if I felt like it).
When there's a rapid fire of button pushing, the main reason for my annoyance clearly becomes the fact that the other person is being a douche by deliberately provoking me, rather than my own issues. The reasonable thing to do at this time is to enforce my boundaries (by requesting that the person stop or by walking out/blocking them if that is not enough).

Yes, I agree that this is beneficial. There is huge difference between this kind of intelligent discussion and repeated provocations that sometimes go under the label of button pushing. In this case, I agree that there is no question of breaking rules.

[BillyTheAdult]

Originally Posted by Cado

Steve himself has done quite a bit of button pushing through his various articles, like "10 reasons you should never have a religion" and the whole nazi-eggs thing. Of course, none of those were directed at any one person, so while they set off a flurry of responses and they were clearly meant to push buttons they're a tad different than what we're talking about here. Still, it reveals a key principle: don't make things personal.

This is the big thing that stood out to me as well. I remember when Steve still used to post here, he could be quite confrontational with people. I mean his self description is that thing about being a human alarm clock. I remember thinking even back then, before the stricter bannings, that there no way he would continue to accepted as forum member if he wasn't the owner. At the same time though I often found his posts to be some of the most helpful and really enjoyed his presence here.

You are never going to grow if you are not challenged and forced to step outside of your comfort zone, and some people (although it's not job to judge which ones) are never going to do that without a push.

[lifetimelearner]

There is a way to 'push' people without being aggressive or calling names

say someone believes that if you masturbate you will go to hell

someone might reply by saying -
" you are such an idiot for having those beliefs "

a better way of saying it -

" I disagree with your statement and this is my reason why........ "


I think that some people are very set in their beliefs about something that they can even become quite hostile when defending that belief-hence the button pushing


I know someone that believes everyone is stupid and does stupid things but him
he bases this on whether the person uses logic in their daily lives
kind of like Spock
If it's it's illogical then it cannot make any sense to him
He can become quite vile and it's hard to be around him when he acts this
way because I am all about empathy and compassion

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by ssandra

in the case of someone being so wrapped up in their own perspective, button pushing will only get them defensive and not acknowledge that there was a button being pushed... Just you being an ass...

What i would do in this case, if i were really invested in getting them to expand their perspective, is to talk to them from their own perspective, and expand from there.

Very simplified example; telling a christian who is hating on gay people about the 10 commandments, and "love thy neighbor" and "he who is without sin..." etc.

I believe that taking that approach works better then starting to kiss another girl in front of him/her.

+1

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by Mounds

A good button-push is when it shakes your version of reality and makes you think. When someone presents me with a personal limitation and we happen to be in good rapport, I push that button. I only do it once because I know that if it persists, it will present itself again at a later date. If it doesn't persist, great!

I think when it looks like someone has pushed your button one time and then steps back - it could be the pusher was not intending to push a button. And they notice a reaction and allow space instead of actually pushing buttons. A one time push is not pushing buttons - it is a button push. hahaha. But we don't have define it.

It's like if you get triggered by something someone else shares you can't necessarily call that interaction as a pusher trying to do pushing - unless they keep at it and have found their own twisted motivation to keep doing it (to feel better, to put down others, to feel brilliant about "helping" someone, to make you right/them wrong, etc...)

In fact, I bet many have seen themselves active someone else's buttons and will naturally pull back and introspect themselves as to why what they said is causing reactions.

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by BillyTheAdult

This is the big thing that stood out to me as well. I remember when Steve still used to post here, he could be quite confrontational with people. I mean his self description is that thing about being a human alarm clock. I remember thinking even back then, before the stricter bannings, that there no way he would continue to accepted as forum member if he wasn't the owner. At the same time though I often found his posts to be some of the most helpful and really enjoyed his presence here.

You are never going to grow if you are not challenged and forced to step outside of your comfort zone, and some people (although it's not job to judge which ones) are never going to do that without a push.

interesting points... thanks.

[Angela]

I think having your buttons get pushed can be an excellent opportunity for generating new freedom, choice and opportunity for yourself and for others. When you examine persistent, habitual negative thought patterns that run automatically and have you feeling bad every time a certain thing happens, it can be a rich source of getting in touch with powerful internal resources. And we have plentiful such opportunities to get our buttons pushed just in day-to-day life; there's no shortage.

And there are far more powerful, sophisticated and effective ways to achieve the same thing intentionally -- ways that don't have yourself or others feeling bad.

So deliberately triggering people's bad-feeling programs "for people's own good" occurs for me as a highly outdated, unsophisticated, unnecessary and brutal tool -- like electroshock therapy or bleeding with leeches. There are situations where people might reap benefit from it, but why use such a bad feeling tool when there are much more effective, fast, and good-feeling (or at least not bad-feeling) ways of getting the same results?

And so often, people go around pushing buttons without taking responsibility for the bad feeling they leave people with, simply dismissing that bad feeling as "your problem." "If you don't like what I'm saying, that's YOUR problem." And that seems to me like someone who has successfully plucked a splinter out of their thumb deciding they're going to go out into the world doing open chest surgery on people and if it doesn't go well, telling 'em it's THEIR problem. Well, yes, that's true - you do have choice in the matter of your response to people pushing your buttons, but you might not be PRESENT to choice in the matter, you might not be present to resources that will support you in doing anything but coping with and surviving, in which case having your button get pushed over and over again in an attempt to "wake you up" does nothing more than pushing the "Walk" light button over and over again does, and in many cases just helps you keep feeling bad or resourceless. That seems very unfriendly to me.

So, I think that a person who deliberately pushes bad-feeling buttons without having the intention or the skill to guide the person quickly to transforming it, if they're not willing to be at cause in the matter of the person moving quickly to freedom, choice, and opportunity -- to have the upset person experience a win from the upset person's point of view -- their consideration that they're "doing good" or "contributing to growth" is inaccurate, disrespectful, and mean. If they want to do good and contribute to growth, they would be much smarter, in my view, to stick to interventions in which they have the willingness and ability to help people get the results the person wants (rather than what the intervener wants), or refrain from intervening until they have that willingness and skill.

I think the forums here are an excellent place to practice building that skill, too, and that it's a great idea for people whose buttons get pushed to practice using a perspective of being 100% responsible for their own results. But if the intention and the being at cause is not there for the person who is pushing the buttons, they're not practicing building the skill to transform, they're only practicing making others feel bad.

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by Angela

And there are far more powerful, sophisticated and effective ways to achieve the same thing intentionally -- ways that don't have yourself or others feeling bad.

What are some of these ways?

If they want to do good and contribute to growth, they would be much smarter, in my view, to stick to interventions in which they have the willingness and ability to help people get the results the person wants (rather than what the intervener wants), or refrain from intervening until they have that willingness and skill.

It works when it is about the results that the person wants!! right on. It might not even feel like button pushing in that case.

It seems a lot of button pushing is about assuming that the receiver wants the lesson or needs to see it the way the pusher does.

But if the intention and the being at cause is not there for the person who is pushing the buttons, they're not practicing building the skill to transform, they're only practicing making others feel bad.

You are good.

ps. welcome back from post-op.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

What are some of these ways?

I've found NLP and hypnotic language to work really well for helping people shift out of feeling like they have no choice in the matter of feeling bad and into a perspective from which they can see that they do have choice. They might still choose thoughts that have them feeling bad, but that can still be a good beginning because just knowing you could choose otherwise, if and when you're ready to, can feel pretty good, doesn't it?

It works when it is about the results that the person wants!! right on. It might not even feel like button pushing in that case.

Yeah. Shifting your perspective doesn't require feeling like your button is being pushed.

It seems a lot of button pushing is about assuming that the receiver wants the lesson or needs to see it the way the pusher does.

I think that is a really key point. I think that the more urgent it is to you for the other person to see things the way you see them, the more of a glaring red flag is waving that there's a button on you that, if you were to disconnect it, the problem would disappear (and, incidentally, the disappearing of your problem-thinking would make you far more powerful in making a positive difference for the other person! It's the darnedest thing.)

You are good.

ps. welcome back from post-op.

Thank you very much!

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by BillyTheAdult

This is the big thing that stood out to me as well. I remember when Steve still used to post here, he could be quite confrontational with people. I mean his self description is that thing about being a human alarm clock. I remember thinking even back then, before the stricter bannings, that there no way he would continue to accepted as forum member if he wasn't the owner. At the same time though I often found his posts to be some of the most helpful and really enjoyed his presence here.

This, for me personally, is one of the things I absolutely dislike about this forum. The inconsistency.

How for most people slight things are being called "name calling" (I agree!) and Steve gets away with things that would get other people banned in a heart beat.

This is a button of mine and it has to do with fairness. It is relatively disconnected, meaning, I still get an emotional response to seeing this happen, but it is not a big one and it is one I prefer dealing with in the moment and not completely disconnect. Because I believe the energy I get from feeling a certain action is unjustified will help me create a better world in general.


Anyway....

@Cado, thanks for your answer. It made me think. I do think that a certain amount of light button pushing can be helpful, although I think I prefer to think about it as pushing people to think outside their comfort zone.

One thing I am planning to do in my upcoming course, on the very first day actually, is to have people tell me all their reasons why they don't have a partner yet. And then give it back to them with the personal responsibility spin. This might get some buttons pushed.
However, I believe that if I am in good rapport with the group before hand, instead of pushing buttons it will just push them outside of their current perspective/worldview/comfort zone. And will help them grow.

[ssandra]

Another thing that I've been thinking about is that button pushing often involves statements.

Whereas more powerful means to facilitate growth (I think) might include more questions.

I remember that the most powerful posts from Angela when I was just starting here were the questions that she asked.
Statements in the sense of "you should do this or that" or "you are this or that" didn't quite register.

However, someone asking me a question, either to answer in the forum or to consider for myself.... created powerful change.

[Promoman]

Button pushing usually isn't altruistic. When button pushers see that the power they have is threatened, they'll do what they can to protect their power. When somebody's trying to sell themselves as being on my side or that they like me when they've done or are doing something that's clearly a problem, then that's somebody you're better off without.

[Curious cat]

Originally Posted by ssandra

However, someone asking me a question, either to answer in the forum or to consider for myself.... created powerful change.

This resonates with me. I would lend more introspection with this approach. If my answer sounds unreasonable, and i am in the right frame of mind to not respond defensively, i would be more ready and willing to admit i was/is wrong. My husband is crazy good at disarming me this way. Happy wife, happy life

[Irisha]

It is not always obvious who is a pusher, and who is being pushed. Sometimes pushing is done in a very subtle way by those who don''t want their power to be threatened. So, another person is actually a pusher. To be able to understand who is who the moderators need to know the whole story. To rely on the reports, or on what you yourself have noticed is not enough. Only the whole story, the context, makes it clear who is who. Do the moderators have time for such an investigation? I doubt it. As they themselves say they have thousands of spammers, and lack of time. Even to read all posts takes a lot of time, to say nothing of investigating what actually has happened, and why. Can the moderators make mistakes because of the lack of time for investigating? They may say that they are not going to do investigations, because everything is clear for them enough. Then mistakes are inevitable because in some cases there is the context that changes the meaning of what mods base their opinion on. To understand that context is not so easy, you need time which moderators don't have enough.


Isn't it possible to forgive a person who was taken for the pusher but actually was not the one and cannot be because his aims have nothing to do with having power, or creating problems?