Forgiving oneself

[EWell]

I have a story to tell. I have told it to many but it still helps, I am realizing the heart of the matter comes down to forgiving myself. I would like to let everyone know that the backdrop to my story involves an ex girlfriend who had a past of sexual trauma. Although nothing which has led to my own guilt involves a transgression in ANY criminal sense, my story does involve contents of a sexual nature or domain, therefore reader beware.

After writing a bit I've just cut it out and pasted it on my Word Pad. I'm incredibly wary of describing all of this on a public forum. I'm going to have to decide whether or not to post this and come back. Sorry for occupying a thread space.

[EWell]

Now I'm just trying to figure out how to delete this, it would be more appropriate in the social/relationships threads.

[Greek Dog]

Obviously I do not know the details of what you are writing about but the very title suggests to me that you are on a beneficial path. Whatever portion you choose to post keeping your focus on YOUR response will give you the relief you seek.

Forgiving yourself requires accepting that forgiveness.
It took me many years to catch on to that important aspect.

[EWell]

I have the right idea, but I have not been putting it into action. I've fallen to alcoholism and it isn't good. I've turned a lot of people off with the outbursts of my rage resulting from the anguish, although that's a bit complex the way this story had its ups and downs between her other friends and I. I desperately need to get sober and find a job. All of this came crashing down six months ago where in the same span of time I lost my job and lost what I thought was going to be my future wife in the worst way it could have ended [with something going wrong sexually and her feeling she couldn't trust me anymore]. So it's been tough.

[RonSouther]

Ewell, no one knows your name here....express yourself....getting it out starts a self-healing process. Repression creates the tension that addictions are used to get relief from.

Just some perspective...no judgment here whatsoever....

Your body was born healthy, not in any need of any addiction. It grew to want sex, but not in a perverted way (the perversion is a drug).

Your consciousness is reporting your struggle to us, but you mind is scared of being found out. No worries...no one can know who you are and sincerely, no one cares...we don't have an axe to grind with you or revenge to take.

That leaves your mind as the source of the confusion and chaos. The actual events in your life are the result of the confused mind that is trying to acquire one more inkling of joy. But with each new destructive event, it takes a stronger and stronger dose of something intoxicating to get your mind to forget your troubles. So enjoying a beer becomes indulging in a case of beer. So enjoying sex becomes S&M or something really extreme because the usual stuff isn't getting you to forget your troubles. The escalation of the dose of whatever drug you're using leads to the self-destruction of your livelihood, your finances, your ability to love and be loved, your body, and your self image.

The blessing of hitting rock bottom is that you no longer think you know it all. Your belief systems have collapsed and now you're willing to consider the help of others where previously I'm guessing you weren't. Before it was denial, now it is "HELP?????!!!!" Good!!!! The ego has to fail before you're ready to move out of it and find yourself. The real you is amazing, but you don't know it. How do I know? Because seeing the real self leads you to revere it, not ignore it or exploit your body for an escape.

Most therapy is a mind game of getting you to take on a positive belief system of self and it doesn't work. You end up becoming addicted to the therapist and when the therapist can no longer give you the next catchy idea to become infatuated with, you switch therapists. Another addiction!

The solution is to grow to see that life is not mental, not logical. Jesus can't save you because you will simply become addicted to the idea that he can and believe so you can be saved. Your salvation will come from your quest to find out the answers to THE question in life "Who am I??"

[EWell]

The point here is not to argue. I simply want to state that I am naturally going to have disagreements with the perception of certain sexual preferences by others who are more traditional. I believe that an S/M lifestyle CAN be a healthy one between two consenting adults. Some have been engaged in such lifestyles for years and manage release through various fantasies that pertain to realms of either submission or domination. This may seem unhealthy to some, but I've known many a healthy people who do quite well with this approach and have no real demons either sexually or otherwise.
It is highly unlikely an association will come across these boards, although I wonder, even if it be years from now whether or not this might occur. I'm also not sure if simply having this story up publicly is really advisable. I guess it's just kind of a strange manifestation to ponder.

[EWell]

And I need to state first-off [-or third-off as the case may be] that I'm a complex individual. I am in the same vein incredibly strict when it comes to logic and emotions. Yes, one does not need the other, yes, one has to be dealt with outside of the other, but these issues are of a nature that are incredibly stark and that have incredibly deep histories built upon them for both parties concerned, and where both achieved their comfort zones within domains that are otherwise viewed quite judgmentally by others of a more traditional bent. I am therefore not going to open up if anyone feels the need to habitually cast their thoughts or judgments about alternative lifestyles or alternative sexual proclivities judgmentally, such is NOT what is either the heart of the matter, nor conducive towards addressing what actually happened in our case. In fact, if anyone happens to stumble upon this who is privy to such proclivities it would be all the better. Furthermore, if anyone wants to help anyone, I already have a set of standards from the above and below that need apply. I need no mention of religious affiliations or hints. I am of a good-nature enough perspective in the meantime to not take offense to them, I can easily replace references to 'Jesus' with my own sources of potential enlightenment, and I need that sort of feedback, but if I'm going to go anywhere with this I need it to be understood that I am not religious, I am not easily placed within any cultural traditional domains when it concerns sexuality, and that the nature of my issue has to do with something well outside of both either way, and since that is what must be dealt with, anything else is miscellaneous.

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by EWell

but if I'm going to go anywhere with this I need it to be understood that I am not religious, I am not easily placed within any cultural traditional domains when it concerns sexuality, and that the nature of my issue has to do with something well outside of both either way, and since that is what must be dealt with, anything else is miscellaneous.

Ewell, thanks for the insights....this statement is your answer...Religious and cultural norms rob us of the freedom to be ourselves. That tension drives us to escape into intoxicating moments.

And sex is totally natural! For the body it reproduces new bodies. For the soul or the heart, it's an outlet to share love for the other....to be a gift of amazing pleasure for the other.

I'm not judging sex. But for the mind that is hankering for relief from social pressures, the beauty of giving to the other in sex gets inverted into a greed to get off on the other in sex as the goal of sex. Then the other is required to submit to one's greed and not free to simply enjoy what comes naturally. When it becomes a slavery to keep the other happy, then sex is not longer beautiful. That's simply real life, not judgment. Everyone that is sexually active has lived something of lust and of love in a sexual moment.

If the sex is producing bad moments, then something went wrong...something was misunderstood or some tainted entered in and stole the dignity of the other. No problem...live and learn.

Sex is a tool...it's like a gun...why it's being used needs to be contemplated if sex is causing problems in one's life. No judgment, just a fact.


You already know the purpose of sex in your life....you either light up with fulfillment because it's love or you self-loath what you're actually doing because you know you're using the other to escape. Only you know this...I'm not speaking for you. I'm just saying that I know you know already. Your expression of your truths are exceptionally conscious and you're asking for a path out of your situation?

[EWell]

Something definitely went wrong. The problem is I not only have to learn from it but deal with the fact that it came with a great loss and an apparent inability to see myself free of insecurities any longer. It's a lot of baggage to carry and attempts at resolving or apologizing have all been complete train wrecks.

[Vibration]

Originally Posted by EWell

Something definitely went wrong. The problem is I not only have to learn from it but deal with the fact that it came with a great loss and an apparent inability to see myself free of insecurities any longer. It's a lot of baggage to carry and attempts at resolving or apologizing have all been complete train wrecks.

I empathize with the pain you're experiencing. Time will eventually reset the situation and allow you to begin again, but from a place of increased wisdom, from what you went through before.

Later experiences will be better if you can allow it. If you can't, you run the danger of repeating the same story.

By allow, I mean allowing experiences to change what you believe about things.

[Criseyde]

EWell, a lot of people on this forum are into alternative sexual arrangements. BDSM is very well accepted around here.

That said, as a moderator, I would like to point out to everyone that this is a completely public forum and anything you post will be on this website for the forseeable future. Members may edit their own posts for up to 24 hours, but no longer. Moderators will not honor requests to edit or delete content, and posts from these forums have been used in court proceedings before. Please keep this in mind when you're deciding what to divulge.

[EWell]

I don't know how to derive power from all of this but I'm not saying it's impossible or that merely getting through it wouldn't be incredible enough to put me in a new place, really I'm not sure. The worst part is I was eventually, in the ups and downs of my pain and outbursts, I was eventually let go of more or less by all mutual or semi-mutual friends in the situation. Although, as said before it was a lot of twists and turns, I don't believe even those close to the situation really understood what a horrible thing it is for a person [a man no less] to be told he can't be trus-ted se-xually, no less by someone he considered an absolute soul-m-ate. It produces a great amount of insecurity and anguish.
If I have flown off the handle because of it I have done nothing more terrible than writing long-winded letters, sometimes very angry but concisely put which should never have been sent to various people, but perspectives around the way have changed and sea-sawed and as I was at a loss as to how to form my own perspective the alignments and reversals of judgment from these same people really whipped me back and forth. Certain attempts at calming me were such phrases as that the loss will "prepare me" for the real thing and all that jazz, but I've been reading some books on dealing with crises' and profound loss and some of it is assuring me in the right ways, reminding me that cliche' responses are usually well-meaning but very little helpful... Even "time will heal" I don't necessarily disagree with, but I have a great, explicitly stubborn intention of dealing with things in the right way, ...when there is an obstruction or a hanger-on of negative energy I may simply be more honest with myself than most people would in a similar or similarly profound situation.
Therefore, despite my obsessiveness and the relationships I have corrupted because of it, it may be the case that I'm willing to fall as far as I have to in order to get it the hell over with, it may be the case that my consistent tinkering and venting on how to deal with the situation is a different reaction than others may have had, but those others may also run the risk of simply "burying" something only to have it exhumed or disinterred in unfortunate ways later on. In anything I've expounded on I've been honest [I mean with others], I am incredibly angry at myself for having jeopardized relationships with others that know her because of it, but I'm incredibly analytical and at a loss when I don't have hold of the right way to grasp a situation, I'm incredibly compromised when things end badly, in fact I've never had a situation in which things ended on bad terms before this. I have never had to process something of the sort before because at heart I'm incredibly moral. My fixation first rested on winning the person back, then turned to brief anger, then attempts at trying to end-things-on-good-terms, in which I was really jacked around, then the communication with mutual associations ensued, and this took me through a few ups and downs as well, where first they aligned with me completely, then changed attitudes and it set me up for another breakdown, to the point where I've been dismissed as obsessive,...which I fully admit in large part, but am not going to blame myself for without warranted perspective.
Others simply couldn't grasp what sort of a loss, and furthermore how terribly degrading it was. Everyone mov-ed on and I hadn't, I should have kept things to myself but I was once in a while privy to careless communications that should not have brought up the issue but did so. To a certain extent the overall consensus among all parties, whether aligned with me or not is that I've taken this thing far too seriously, and I believe that's probably largely the case. At the end of things, despite being told I was still considered a friend by this former significant other I was blown by incredibly cold indifference and allowed to see going-ons within days of new initiations with others they embarked on, was blown off after explicit promises were made that conversation would be had, was told wretched things, the kinds of things you just don't say to people who are trying to apologi-ze, even though I understood where the anger came from.
I hope, after all is said and done, perhaps months or years from now, I very much hope that I will be able to extend my appreciation and apologies to those whom I've alienated that were mutual associations, actually just one in particular. I don't very much take their dismissal of me personally, I understand it was not their place to reassure me or deal with my vent-ing. I have no idea how they will react if I ever reach out again, but I believe it would be a good idea to only do so to this former mutual association once I am well over everything. In the meantime I care more about that than I do almost anything else. I'll tell you what, it sucks to be in the consensified "jerk" domain when it comes to another circle. I don't like to leave bad impressions with people, it was bad enough having that happen with the one things were originally centered upon, but that was unavoidable, as for the others I could have acted better.

[EWell]

This must be an incredibly boring read for everyone. Trust me it would be far more exciting if I could reveal a thing. Heh.

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by EWell

This must be an incredibly boring read for everyone. Trust me it would be far more exciting if I could reveal a thing. Heh.

Can you look inside and "see" why the other person is so important? Can you see whether you love the other or whether you need the other for your sanity?

Can you know what love is if you don't love yourself?

[EWell]

As I usually recount there are a number of factors that led this situation to become the monster it is. I had known her on and off for almost a decade and a half. She had been the one that initiated contact after years of not seeing her when we had gone our separate paths. She had confided in me when we were teens about her past incidents of tr-auma. Furthermore I have, throughout my life [and I know this might be the case with many because statistics on women and abuse are terrible], I had always heard the stories of, helped with, and lent ear to many women, usually in relationships who had been through similar things. Thus this was all the brew in the mistake I made for an Ach-illes H-eel like absolutely none other, from personal nostal-gia with the particular person and the attachment bound up with it, to my own worst fears, not even fears, but a fear I never thought to have, that of hurt-ing another woman and losing trus-t because of it.

[RonSouther]

Ewell, what do you see when you look inside yourself?

Where does the hankering come from?

[EWell]

Second question.

I don't even know how to state it. It was a waterfall. It was overwhelming. It raged for weeks and months. I've always been there to protect people. I was so ANGRY at myself for having let it happen, for having made a mistake. So anguished I had to handle loss of em-ployment, rejec-tion on the back of something so personally twisted at the same juncture, witness to my own jeal-ousy due to complete disregard from a corner that was previously warm and safe, suspicion of myself and having to stomach that the indifference was precisely because I was no longer seen as someone deserving of resp-ect or compa-ssion from them because I had "vio-lated" their tru-st. In a certain way felt like a crimin-al who just robb-ed a bank and got kicked in the ball-s by an old lady to the applause or acceptance of good people.

Let me tell you an off-story. One time something happened [this is a little sick] on one of the usual routes I took at night in my home town through a road paved across a long stretch of weeds and dirt,... rabbits always ran across this damn-ed thing. Always one was swerving to avoid these white rabbits, driving slowly and trying not to let ones' foot become a brick due to sheer impatience, it was tedious if one wanted to get through it without hitting these white darts that would sometimes come at the worst time after seeing none for a good stretch. One time, on my way home from prom night no less, I clipped one. In these situations I do the difficult things others are sometimes unable to do because I care, because I refuse to let my own fear muddle my responses. I knew I had just hit one. I turned around, assessed the damage as I came upon it after the u-turn. It was pretty bad. Not only was it not injured critically, it was also in an area providing little blood loss, it was bound to suffer for hours if not a whole day lest someone else decided to finish the job. Only its two front paws were flattened into the street. I made another u-turn to get in the prior lane and did what I had to do. The only thing I regret was going as slowly as I did, but I wanted to make sure this thing was put out of its misery for good, on target. Unfortunately the screaming was horrific coming from this little white thing. I, without necessarily expecting it [I wasn't expecting anything] began to sob at how unfortunate a demise it had to be, the brief screaming alone was enough to make anyone cry, but I was at least happy I did it, that it was over for the little sucker.

I've always been courag-eous. Now more to the matter what happened regarding what I opened this thread on here was a fluke in circumstance and a combination of inex-perience, intox-ication and misco-mmunication, but my response to it was uncertain and mired in f.ear in its immediate moments afterwords. When it took place I didn't know how to respond, I immediately stopped and wasn't given any indication on how to respond, she turned her b-ack to me and curle-d up in the cov-ers. I was uncertain, ash-amed and completely at a loss as to how to react. I even thought I might call up her P-T-S-.D issues if I attempted to do something, or that I had just become a completely different person in a flash in her eyes per her prior trau-ma. It was a sense of rej-ection and uncertainty. We ended up "slee-ping" on opposite sides of the be-d. Believe it or not we ended up getting "past" it in the morn-ing, we talked about it and had an under-standing on why this occurred, that this des-ired act would be handled better next time. We even eng-aged in more act-ivity a day or two later. So imagine my shock when 3 weeks later this was raised as a reason on why we had to sep-arate, that against other problems this one fester-ed for her since she had had time to "think" about it. Apparently it was not just the incid-ent itself, but that I didn't "comf-ort" her when it happened. So you know, the whole thing made me feel like a cow-ard, and a louse, and in-adequate. Never had to deal with that kind of s-h-a-m-e before. Complete evisceration of all the things we expect ourselves to be in self-image of man--hood.

[RonSouther]

Ewell, what are you getting from these extreme encounters? What does it mean to you?

What did they mean to her?

[EWell]

I have an instinct this is based on a presumption that is unwarranted. I don't say that to hint at anything dismissive whatsoever from my end. The fact is that things require clarification for everyone where I'm incredibly wary of stating things. My intention has in a round-about way become one of expressing as much as I can with as little specific info-rmation as I can. The expressed des-ire from her end was a-n-a-l pen-etration, a desi-re which in itself is not grossly uncommon or unable to be attended to in mutual ways. It wasn't extr-eme, it was just that an expression was given to its des-ire multiple times beforehand in the course of our relat-ionship and where I never had a procliv-ity for this particular thing I had never done research on how to properly go about it. Everything else I grandly entertained in my own tab-oo des-ires I was quite familiar with. It is something that cannot just be done in the moment, it quite obviously and as is more or less common knowledge to most is an act which requires preparation, lu-be, etc.... Truthfully, I knew better in my own loose familiarity with this overall, but in the heat of pass-ion, and our fool-ing around happening after a decent time of convening with friends and drunk-enness, etc. it might have made me more impulsive than I should have been, and more incautious or simply "stupid," if you will.

[RonSouther]

Ewells, the details of what happened are the "symptoms", not the real problem. Like when you have a the flu, you got the stuff you can see or feel like aches and pains, runny nose, fever and so on but none of that is the cause.

The cause of your "flu" is inside you. For you, you need to blow you nose and get it out of your unconscious mind in order to help heal.

But the "doctor" is going to treat the source with perspective.

I don't ask the details because to me they are not important. What you've shared reveals the "virus" even though you haven't said what you've done.

For YOU, I sense that you're itchy to confess and you should so that you can see that the sky won't fall. No one here has anything at stake because our lives are separate from your's. For YOU, let it out....SNEEZE!!

But for me, help me see what you see inside you....what does this extreme lifestyle mean to you? It hurt you and her so I can't say that even with two consenting adults that it is healthy. I'm not judging, just observing based upon what you've shared.

What does it mean to you? You're really intelligent and articulate...help us understand you....

[EWell]

I think I've at this point said what I've done,

Let me put it this way. If someone says they like to be domin-ated in bed it doesn't mean you start pun-ching them in the face while you are lying with them, am I correct? In the same vein if one says they want it up the back avenue it doesn't mean you do it without preparation. As I was either caught up in the moment or simply unaware enough to the point where I let getting caught up in the moment sidetrack me enough to do something so stup-id at the time w/out preparation, I believe this was the thing that turned-her-off. In addition it's simply a complex circumstance, once it happened I didn't know how to react. It's produced a lot of shame whether it be from a self-judgment of stupi-dity or negl-ect. Does that make any sense?

It has NOTHING to do with extrem-es or tab-oo in and of themselves.

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by EWell

Let me put it this way. If someone says they like to be domin-ated in bed it doesn't mean you start pun-ching them in the face while you are lying with them, am I correct? In the same vein if one says they want it up the back avenue it doesn't mean you do it without preparation. As I was either caught up in the moment or simply unaware enough to the point where I let getting caught up in the moment sidetrack me enough to do something so stup-id at the time w/out preparation, I believe this was the thing that turned-her-off. In addition it's simply a complex circumstance, once it happened I didn't know how to react. It's produced a lot of shame whether it be from a self-judgment of stupi-dity or negl-ect. Does that make any sense?

It has NOTHING to do with extrem-es or tab-oo in and of themselves.

Everything you say makes sense! I've had my own experiences where in the blink of an eye, it goes from all ok to wtf?? No judgment here. I'm just asking you to consider that the consequences speak to whether what you're doing takes care of the heart or the mind.

Too often what the mind wants breaks the heart because the heart wants to give where the mind wants to take. So you think you're having a good time, and then it falls apart.

[EWell]

She took it personally. Couldn't believe I didn't "comfort" her, etc.... but meanwhile I laid there agonizing over what I had done. And she didn't reach-out to me. The extent to which it was a miscomm-unication on so many levels made it hard to process,.... or bury. How could anything so detrimental interrupt such a pure bond on misunderstanding alone? Aren't misunderstandings there to get passed? [past?]........ I don't know...... I mean I'm realizing some things outside of all of this as far as my own "recovery," but this nagging sense of disbelief and disillusionment or having to let things "go" when they ended in such a contorted position is precisely why I have a hard time, on the one hand I want to move-the-F-on, on the other hand I don't want to carry this with me deep inside whether or not I'm able to maintain down the road. I need to thrive, not survive at some freaking point.

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by EWell

She took it personally. Couldn't believe I didn't "comfort" her, etc.... but meanwhile I laid there agonizing over what I had done. And she didn't reach-out to me. The extent to which it was a miscomm-unication on so many levels made it hard to process,.... or bury. How could anything so detrimental interrupt such a pure bond on misunderstanding alone? Aren't misunderstandings there to get passed? [past?]........ I don't know...... I mean I'm realizing some things outside of all of this as far as my own "recovery," but this nagging sense of disbelief and disillusionment or having to let things "go" when they ended in such a contorted position is precisely why I have a hard time, on the one hand I want to move-the-F-on, on the other hand I don't want to carry this with me deep inside whether or not I'm able to maintain down the road. I need to thrive, not survive at some freaking point.

You sincerely amaze me with your witnessing....I hope you're feeling some relief by sharing....

Your thriving won't come from her or from sex. It will come from witnessing the reason why others and activities are your happiness and not self-acceptance.

I read this quote today....It's pretty relevant...

Osho,
You told a story about ten years ago that I have not been able to understand:

A seeker is lost in the mountains; he is tired and thirsty. It is night and he sees a silver bowl with crystal clear water which he drinks, and then he sleeps. In the morning light he sees that the bowl was in fact a dirty old skull.

He laughed and became enlightened.

What did he see, Osho?


The story is simple, but with immense meaning. The seeker saw in the skull the whole reality, and our illusions about it. He saw what we think is, and what really is – and the difference is tremendous.

He would not have taken that water, drunk that water, if he had known that it was in a dirty old skull. He thought it was a beautiful bowl with crystal clear water.

Our life is lived in illusions of crystal clear water, but reality is totally different. Seeing the difference he laughed at himself. And to be able to laugh at oneself can become a breakthrough – one can become enlightened.

People laugh at others, and people feel hurt if somebody laughs at them, but to come to an understanding where you see your own stupidity…and your whole life is full of it. We live in dreams, illusions, hallucinations. They do not correspond to reality at all. The reality is the dirty old skull. He laughed at himself, and in that very laughter he became a different man. Now he will live with reality, whatever it is. Now no illusions will be needed, no hallucinations will be needed to cover it, to hide it. He has seen the point.

The story is simple, but it is the story of the whole pilgrimage from darkness to light, from illusions to reality.

Just watch your mind, how it creates illusions about everything and then gets disillusioned and disturbed. You love a man, you love a woman – you create a certain illusion about the man or the woman. It is not the truth. Deep down you know it too. You are imposing an image. Soon it will be shattered, because against reality no illusion can last long. Soon you will find a dirty old skull.

Then ordinarily you will be disappointed, miserable, and you will miss the point. If you could have laughed you would not have missed it.



Even when you understand that things are not the way you had imagined them to be, you dump the whole responsibility on the other person. A woman who was beautiful turns out to be a ♥♥♥♥♥. A man you had thought to be a hero turns out to be just a henpecked husband. You are not going to laugh at yourselves. You will throw the whole responsibility on the other person: that he deceived you, that he pretended to be something that he was not, that she was not so beautiful as she was pretending – with all the make-up she deceived him. But no make-up is needed. Your illusions, your hallucinations, your lust is enough – the greatest make-up in the world.

So whatever you want, whatever you desire, you project, and when that projection proves wrong, there are two possibilities. One is to dump the whole responsibility on the other person, who is simply innocent of what you were seeing in her.

In fact, when you say to a woman, “You are beautiful…” and this and that, she wonders, because she also looks in the mirror and she does not find anything that you are talking about. But why disturb yourself unnecessarily? Why not enjoy? It fulfills her ego. Even the ugliest woman will not object, say that you are wrong. She will smile and accept all your compliments. And standing before a mirror she may think that perhaps she is wrong. How can that man be wrong? Why should he be wrong?

In each love affair both the persons are innocent, as far as they are concerned. But both are responsible for projecting upon the other something which the other is not.

A Sufi story tells that Mulla Nasruddin had a beautiful house in the hills and once in a while he used to go there. And sometimes he would say it would take three weeks for him to rest or two weeks, or four weeks, but he never managed to keep the date that he had given for his return; he would always come sooner. If he had gone for three weeks, within two weeks he would be back.

His friends started asking, “You plan for three weeks, then you come back in two weeks, sometimes even in one week. What is the matter?”

He said, “You don’t know. I have an old woman servant.”

They said, “What has that to do with your remaining in the hills and relaxing?”

He said, “First listen to the whole thing. She is so ugly. That’s why I have chosen her – she is my criterion. When she starts looking beautiful to me, then I escape, then I know: ‘Now, Mulla, this is not a safe place, and you have lost your mind.’ So I go for three weeks, but what can I do? In three days she starts looking beautiful. And if I stay one day more I may propose. And she is really ugly. It is difficult to tolerate her, but I have kept her specially for this purpose, so that when I start losing my mind I will know it is the exact time to leave and come back home into the world.”

You project; the projection fails. If you could laugh at yourself…that is the message of this story.

As far as existence is concerned, gold and rock are not different – it is human illusion, we have projected it. If man is no longer in this world, gold will not be gold; although it will still be itself, there will be no difference in the valuation between it and a rock. The valuation and the difference is our projection – and then we suffer.

So the insight in that small anecdote is great. If you can laugh at yourself when any of your illusions fall away, soon you will be able to live without illusions, to live without hallucinations, to live without projections. And to live without all these things means to live in peace, and to live in silence, and to celebrate the small things of life.
(Beyond Psychology by Osho)

[EWell]

There are so many ways in which Zen and Buddhism and more Eastern approaches to [____] have come upon me, far outside of personal circumstances they began their encroachment, but have knocked on the door more urgently than ever due to the latter.

My only question when it comes to these things is this: When there is a letting-go there is a real letting-go. Is there nothing to hold onto? Is there no love that can be relied upon jointly occupying a sense of passion and instinct that once initially recognized is thus placed and,.... eventually transforms itself to a recognition in all forms of that initial connection outside of the ancillary that was not even the source of it?,.... to reveal itself as two old people lying on the bed, waiting mournfully for the other to die in full appreciation of their being without standard of sex or youth that were originally just ancillary? Where the meeting of the eyes was the center of it without any other standard from the beginning? All I can say is that's what I felt with her at 15 or 14 yrs old.

I have some amendments to this as far as further insight that might resolve the conflict I raise, I just don't want to take the time at this very moment.

[RonSouther]

Pick up this book...Half.com: Sex Matters: From Sex to Superconsciousness by Osho (2003, Paperback, Reprint): From Sex to Superconsciousness(9780312316303): Osho: Books

Or read it online for free Sea ? Poison ? Human Being? ? Osho Online Library

Or I can send you a copy in email if you PM you email address to me.

Another great read is this.... Half.com: , Intimacy: Trusting Oneself and the Other by Osho (2001, Paperback): Trusting Oneself and the Other(9780312275662): : Books

[EWell]

I can give these a gander. But I must state they probably have relevance for an overall understanding well outside of my burying my past. What happened with me was a fluke that unfortunately touched upon a serious issue as far as the past of another party.

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by EWell

I can give these a gander. But I must state they probably have relevance for an overall understanding well outside of my burying my past. What happened with me was a fluke that unfortunately touched upon a serious issue as far as the past of another party.

The relevancy is there and your situation was not a fluke. It's a symptom of deep issues in you and her.

From what I've come to see in life, there is only one cause to our emotional suffering....no knowing self. The end result is ego, which is an energy pit of trying to create a false self image that we can be infatuated with. The tension of not knowing self must be relieved because the mind can't stay this active for so long over a question that simply no real answer has been found. That's insanity!

So for ONE problem, the mind can find millions of ways to escape the tension. So if your mind attaches kinky sex with happiness, then your mind will command your body to do it. Same with alcohol or anything. Anything can become an escape if your mind thinks its the secret for happiness.

The mind isn't qualified to find happiness because it doesn't know that unhappiness is when the mind is active and happiness is when the mind is silent. So an eager mind, seeking happiness is active and you're not happy in the search. In the search your mind is hankering for a release and when it thinks finally that release is here and now, it dives into the situation....like you've been holding back a sneeze for weeks and finally you get to let it rip and boy do you! Finally, no more mental masturbation...it's show time!!!

Well, the mind can't see all her issues, can't see how it is using the other as a drug, as a thing, and she can't see that you're just eager because she's feeling like a toy and not like she's loved. A woman's sexuality is available when she feels loved where a man can drop $20 on a prostitute and think nothing of it.

You won't be able to let go of this until you can see how you got there in the first place. The whole event was mental. Love doesn't end like this. There was love between the two of you but the lust killed it. To heal you have to see where lust comes from. Those books help!

Honestly, are you missing her or missing the sexual outlet? Or both? What do you see inside you? Be honest.

[EWell]

Yes, a woman wants to be loved and not treated like a toy. But going back to even our individual childhoods these were fantasies we both had on opposite ends of the coin. It's always been with me in some form or another and again, I don't believe it has to be unhealthy. I believe it can only be regarded as unhealthy in the same bin as sex itself within the wheel of Samsara, if one wants to be orthodox about it. For instance it's all a matter of extremes. Women [and even some men] like to practice devotion by surrendering control,.. most who are quite vanilla will get something out of a man holding down her arms at times, etc.... there is nothing weird about that. Take it to a new level and you have something else entirely, but again, we practiced this safely and with no hangups whatsoever for a while. There is nothing wrong with k-ink!

I will add this incident occurred smack in the middle of a session with no k-ink at all. We were sauced and having a great time in b-ed after having visited one of my friends.

The problem is I acted impulsively in a situation and was in-experienced in this particular domain, secondly I didn't react to it in a caring way because the communication caved in at once, I thought I needed to lay off, she was upset I didn't comfort,... it was all the more confusing since she didn't mention it but three weeks later during which other problems had been coming up, [this was a L-ong- Di-stance relation-ship, mind you and I had just become unem-ployed, I wasn't the best at letting my insecurities and fears be known like any male has problems with] so I believe she felt doubly bet-rayed. Now, I believe it's unfortunate, that she at least had an obligation to speak up about her concerns about that incident that night instead of leaving me in the dark and using it as an axe on me to end things out of the blue. It F'd me up pretty good. So understand, there is a lot of complexity to the situation.

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by EWell

Yes, a woman wants to be loved and not treated like a toy. But going back to even our individual childhoods these were fantasies we both had on opposite ends of the coin. It's always been with me in some form or another and again, I don't believe it has to be unhealthy. I believe it can only be regarded as unhealthy in the same bin as sex itself within the wheel of Samsara, if one wants to be orthodox about it. For instance it's all a matter of extremes. Women [and even some men] like to practice devotion by surrendering control,.. most who are quite vanilla will get something out of a man holding down her arms at times, etc.... there is nothing weird about that. Take it to a new level and you have something else entirely, but again, we practiced this safely and with no hangups whatsoever for a while. There is nothing wrong with kink!

The problem is I acted impulsively in a situation and was in-experienced in this particular domain, secondly I didn't react to it in a caring way because the communication caved in at once, I thought I needed to lay off, she was upset I didn't comfort,... it was all the more confusing since she didn't mention it but three weeks later during which other problems had been coming up, [this was a L-ong- Di-stance relation-ship, mind you and I had just become unem-ployed, I wasn't the best at letting my insecurities and fears be known like any male has problems with] so I believe she felt doubly bet-rayed. Now, I believe it's unfortunate, that she at least had an obligation to speak up about her concerns about that incident that night instead of leaving me in the dark and using it as an axe on me to end things out of the blue. It F'd me up pretty good. So understand, there is a lot of complexity to the situation.

It's complex, I understand. It just feels like something is missing.

I understand the "surrender" thing. It's a way of feeling the high of dropping the ego. It's not the real surrender that comes from truly not needing the ego anymore. How can someone have an ego when she's gives up physical control in a situation? It's a "let-go" situation but it's manufactured.

In deep love, there's a surrender because you forget to pretend and it feels great but it's still not the real surrender.

The real surrender happens once you can see you're not the mind and all it's perversions that it spins in order to get the next high.

Something is missing in the relating and the consequences prove it.

Are you willing to look inside yourself to see what drives you?

Are you missing her or missing what you could do with her?

Are you happy in your own skin?

Are you fine when you're alone? Relaxed?

Whatever the sex acts are aren't wrong. What's wrong is that the relating was missing something that didn't allow it to absorb the mistakes as learning experiences.