Struggling with guilt and shame

[elucidate]

I need some emotional support at the moment, as I've been struggling quite a fair bit lately with having cut off contact with my family entirely. I'm not that good at reaching out for support like this, and I've had some bad experiences here in the past where I have and felt like some people just trampled over my feelings, though it might have been just that I was sensitive at the time? I find it hard to be emotionally vulnerable here at times, as it's a risk with who will pop in to have their say, but I also know there are some very supportive and non-judgemental people here who are empathic and compassionate, so I am reaching out to those people now.

It's been since April that I last communicated with my father, when he tried to convince me that I concocted the whole story about him rifling through my personal journal...when it was actually HIM who fabricated a bs story about how it was that he ended up with a piece of paper from my journal in his hand where I expressed a secret about how I'd had a very strong Knowing that he had interfered with my little brother...sexually.

I have never been able to prove that it happened, but I just knew something did happen. My father was good friends with a high profile pedophile who died in prison about 8 years ago, and whom my father PROUDLY supported, when all his other "hangers on" (he was very wealthy and would often buy "his boys" elaborate gifts, which the parents knew about and basically allowed it to go on. I have issues with my father for this reason alone...let alone what might or may not have happened with my brother.

My brother is now a grown man and he has lots of issues that he isn't dealing with as a result. He knows something happened to him as well, but he is just drowning it in marijuana escape and other drugs. I cannot be around him anymore, as I have mentioned here a few times in the past, since his bullying and just general assoholism has escalated and never been anything but all through our twenties. I realize that he is in pain, but I am no longer willing to place myself in his line of fire.

What I am struggling with currently is the immense guilt and shame that keeps welling up in me, and the temptation to just call them and feeling like i'm really bad for doing this, because they are getting older and won't be here forever.

I keep getting all these internal messages...that I can hear from my father berating me for "All the things I've done for you, how could you do this to me" and my brother telling me "He fed you and housed you...how can you do this...he paid for your education etc"...just these constant inflow of guilt, and shame.

I think about dad every day when I wake up and when I go to bed. I feel terrible for cutting him off, but I also can't abide any more of the deceit and every time I think oh I'll just call him, I remember that he rifled through my stuff and violated my personal boundaries, and won't even admit it or apologize, and it makes me not want to talk to him. So basically, I keep gyrating back and forth in my mind and it just feels really bad.

When I hold on through the guilt, I can reach a place past that where it passes and I feel peaceful, but at work and other places when these feelings rise, it's harder to deal with them as I can't really talk to anyone or write in my diary about it.

I do EFT tapping when I remember, but that isn't all the time, and I journal when I'm at home, so I have these tools to help me...but it just keeps happening, every day. I do cord cutting and it goes away for a while, and then it strikes again, and I start the cycle all over again, and feel like I should just call him because he's getting old and what if he dies and I'm too busy being a ♥♥♥♥♥...but I'm not...I'm doing my best to get the message across that I didn't buy into his crap and I'm not giving into him this time. Basically, I am doing my best to turn the whole "scapegoat" role that I've been put in my whole life around, so they get that I'm not gonna play that role anymore.

I guess I'm looking for some comfort here. It's a really hard sitch and whilst I am sorting through it with my counsellor, it builds up in me so this is like releasing the valves a bit. I feel like a sook at work, and like I am judged as one by my workmates, but I can't really tell them why I'm upset.

I'm doing my best to be strong in mind and remind myself of why I'm doing this, but I keep falling into thoughts that I'm making too much of things, and that I'm being childish...minimizing the situation basically, and then I have to waste more energy convincing myself again that it's not just me being crazy.

Anyway, just need to vent I guess, so I can feel better.

One minute I'm determined to keep it up and the next I just miss them and want to call and get the message that "cut them some slack...they won't be around forever"...which makes me weak and then I think, but if I open that door again, it's just gonna go back to the way it was...or is it?

I'm pretty sure they have gotten the message that I don't really want them in my life right now...but I also can feel dad is worried about me and misses me and is sad...which I know I have no control over, but it still makes me feel bad.

Butterflywoman, I know you have been through the same thing, and I was hoping if you could reassure me that this is normal, or offer some help here. Anyone else who has experienced this sort of thing, and has been through the process of cutting themselves off from dysfunctional family, I'd be interested to read what you have to say.

I'm really not looking for any advice here though, just support and to feel better by expressing what's going on for me right now.

I guess, by support I mean, any wise or comforting words. I know I just need to hold on and it's going to get better...that's what I'm hoping anyway. I do think that for me I want to re establish contact at some point and hopefully things will have changed in the dynamics between us, but I'm a bit unsure about how to go about it, when the time comes.

I have some fears about how I will be treated if I do establish contact with them again, seeing as they all don't even admit that any abuse has happened, and don't even see what they've done, so to them I'm just being crazy and childish and stupid...oh and don't forget "Ungrateful".

Why does that always get thrown at adults who are children of dysfunctional parents? Just because I refuse to put up with boundary violations and gaslighting does not mean I'm not grateful for everything they have done for me in my life. It's just another guilt trip..."selfish" "ungrateful".

I am ungrateful. I'm ungrateful for being treated this way. I am selfishly looking after myself now and not letting them use me as the scapegoat...how terrible of me to not want to be used anymore.

[Curious cat]

Hello.

What a complicated family dynamic. I think the trouble with family is while they can be 'bad', on the flip side, there would be just as times when they are 'good'. This is such a gray area and is confusing when you love them, but are also angry at them so shame creeps up when anger dissipates, and you just keep rollercoasting between these emotions. I think that would be totally normal.

For me, i've had two falling outs with my parents. The first was when i was 19 and the second was only about four years ago. We are in each others' lives now and are on good terms but it's been a struggle.

I grew up in a really strict family and had a really rough time with my parents over a boy when i was 16. Not plural, only one. My parents were so sure that i was going to end up pregnant, dumped and a delinquent with no future at 16, as this was what they would often say to me. As you can imagine i moved out as soon as i was out of high school.

After i moved out of home, contact with my parents was kept to a minimum. I didn't really miss them because for me anger towards my dad overpowered my shame and guilt. But probably due to my age too because i hadn't yet developed too much compassion back then. Although now, at 32, when i get flashbacks of our arguments and the things he would call me, it brings back those old feelings. You see, my father has a filthy mouth and his temper controlled him so i was called whore a few times for having a boyfriend. Who i ended up being married to for 12 years now!

The second time was when i found out he was cheating on my mum with his staff, who was just two years older than me. He had no remorse over it and had no intention of ending things with his mistress or my mum! He even bragged to me intimate details of their sexual encounters. That is f#%^*+= messed up. The unfathomable thing is, my mum was helping him hide his secret and even defended him and took his side. My family was divided on this issue and some siblings would take my dad's side. So it was over a period of four years or so that i refused to take their calls and refused to attend any family gatherings.

What finally turned things around was an accumulation of life changing events; my dad was approaching 70 and was diagnosed with prostate cancer, i was pregnant with my first child, oh and the mistress dumped my dad's a$$.

Today i see my parents often and are on speaking terms. They are retired and adore their grandson so things are quite good. Our family dynamic has always been such that we never discuss issues, everything just gets swept under the carpet, so we act as though nothing has happened. This frustrates me like h%^* because i like to talk about my problems, but i have made my peace with this and have accepted it.

Anyway, in the time period where i've cutoff my family, i've had to do alot of soul searching to finally forgive my father and let go of any resentment i held over the years. This helps because i'm not tense when we meet up anymore. So for me, the main thing that has changed here are my perception and how i choose to react. There is noway in h#%^ the old geeser is going to learn any new tricks. Although he did quit smoking cold turkey after his diagnosis, and this was after decades of chain smoking.

Anyway, i hope you find the support you are after. All the best.

[elucidate]

Thanks for sharing your story. I'm the same, I like to get everything out in the open and talk about it so we can move past it...but they all pretend it never happened and conveniently forget about it, whilst I'm stuck with it. It has made me very vehemently determined to face conflict as it arises and communicate about the issue in respectful ways. I can't stand the feeling that builds up when it is left unspoken.

The thing is I have lost all trust in them. How can I have relationships with supposed "family" when they have done so many things that have destroyed the bond of trust there, and they are like strangers to me. I have felt like an orphan for years, even though they are not dead yet!

I have found family through friends, and online...but they all act like nothing is wrong and like we are all happy family, when it hasn't been that way for over 15 years. I'm not in denial...they are. That's what makes it so hard.

How can I even want a relationship with people who just ♥♥♥♥ up so much. My mother stole all my money I saved for travelling overseas to put in the pokies, and still hasn't apologized after 10 years...my father rifles through my diary and lies about it, and used to hang out with a pedophile knowing full well that he was and going to parties at his house where there were boys everywhere...and BRAGS about it, blaming the boys for accepting gifts from him, and my brother tries to convince me to star in a home made porn flick (with him filming) with his ♥♥♥♥ buddy.

Who would WANT these people for family? How am I supposed to even start to forgive them?

And they all blame ME for the dysfunction, when I'm probably the sanest of all of them.

[Curious cat]

I don't know what i could say to make it right so i will just mostly listen.

Your family is hurting and are miserable inside. If they allow themselves to see the truth, their world would crack and they would be faced with the burden of confronting their pain and have to deal with it. They aren't as strong as you. They are not ready to face their truth.

For me personally the process of forgiveness started when i was confronted by my dad's mortality. When it is life and death, it forces you to see things differently. I think also being pregnant, i made the choice to not stay angry for my baby's sake. Not even my mother-in-law could phase me. Hah! And i think when i made that choice, happiness and peace came easier to me. I''m sorry i wish i could expand more.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by Curious cat

I don't know what i could say to make it right so i will just mostly listen.

Thankyou.

Your family is hurting and are miserable inside. If they allow themselves to see the truth, their world would crack and they would be faced with the burden of confronting their pain and have to deal with it. They aren't as strong as you. They are not ready to face their truth.

Yes, I know this is true, which is why I can't be around them...it brings me down and I've been through hell already. I can't even really tell them why I've cut off from them because they won't understand and won't admit to anything. I resent them for this because I've had to face it all on my own...for years, constantly hurting and just miserable and no one wants to be around me...which is understandable. I didn't want them around me anyway, but still it hurts to feel rejected all the time.

I don't feel strong, I feel worthless from all the guilt and my crap job draining the life and soul out of me isn't helping much either. I'm working on creating something much more fulfilling so that's only temporary, but it is compounding this other stuff and making it even harder.

For me personally the process of forgiveness started when i was confronted by my dad's mortality. When it is life and death, it forces you to see things differently. I think also being pregnant, i made the choice to not stay angry for my baby's sake. Not even my mother-in-law could phase me. Hah! And i think when i made that choice, happiness and peace came easier to me. I''m sorry i wish i could expand more.

This is what I am going through right now, although my father is not sick (physically) or my mother as far as I know? I am facing my own mortality lately as well as the fact that they won't be alive much longer...and that makes me feel pressured to forgive and get through this, but I can't rush the process either...if you get me?

I mean, I had made some significant progress when I was 20 in forgiving and moving forward, and then they just heaped on another serving of ♥♥♥♥ sandwich and that has left me a lot more messed up than I was 15 years ago, and it has taken a much longer time to process and heal this time around.

[Lauxa]

Hi Luci, sorry to hear that you are struggling emotionally right now. Guilt and shame, ouch, those hurt. It sounds to me that you would like to be able to connect with your family, but you are afraid of being hurt. If you knew that you were strong and safe, then you would be willing to connect. Therefore, if you are working on developing your strength and safety, perhaps you can feel at peace, knowing you are doing your part towards working to reestablish connection with your family.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by Lauxa

Hi Luci, sorry to hear that you are struggling emotionally right now. Guilt and shame, ouch, those hurt. It sounds to me that you would like to be able to connect with your family, but you are afraid of being hurt. If you knew that you were strong and safe, then you would be willing to connect. Therefore, if you are working on developing your strength and safety, perhaps you can feel at peace, knowing you are doing your part towards working to reestablish connection with your family.

I am only willing to re-connect with them when they start looking at themselves and can start showing me more respect, which may never happen. I'm not interested in connecting with people who can't manage that much, but expect respect in return...it doesn't work that way.

[Curious cat]

I don't think having strength makes you immune to feeling down.

Don't rush yourself, this is your journey and your own timeline. Unless someone in your family is on their death bed i don't see the rush. Also keep in mind that when i finally decided to forgive my dad, it had already been years, so i certainly had time to process alot. Sounds like you've just begun your cutoff (wih alot of stop and strts?).

Lol @ heaping on fresh tuuurd. It's great you can still find humour in this state.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by Curious cat

I don't think having strength makes you immune to feeling down.

Don't rush yourself, this is your journey and your own timeline. Unless someone in your family is on their death bed i don't see the rush. Also keep in mind that when i finally decided to forgive my dad, it had already been years, so i certainly had time to process alot. Sounds like you've just begun your cutoff (wih alot of stop and strts?).

Lol @ heaping on fresh tuuurd. It's great you can still find humour in this state.

Thankyou...this helped. I get all worked up thinking what if they die tomorrow and I still haven't forgiven them. I never wanted that...but now it's not something I have any control over.

Neither of them are bedridden as far as I'm aware, and yeah, it's early days for the cut off period, so you're right. I just need to calm down and not stress so much. it just plagues me otherwise. All I can do is take it one day at a time and not put so much pressure on myself to HAVE to do anything by anyone's clock. I keep getting my father's words in my mind saying "the clock is ticking" which is his favorite saying, especially when he is trying to motivate me.

And yes, my sense of humor has helped me get through this...thankfully.

[elucidate]

Thankyou both...this is really helping me a lot right now. It's emotionally exhausting as well.

[ButterflyWoman]

Originally Posted by elucidate

What I am struggling with currently is the immense guilt and shame that keeps welling up in me, and the temptation to just call them and feeling like i'm really bad for doing this, because they are getting older and won't be here forever.

I understand. It took me a long time to come to terms with my estrangement from my parents, actually. I always knew it was the healthiest decision for me, and I felt immediately better when I was no longer in contact with them, but I still had moments where I'd have to examine it all again and make sure it was the right thing and that I wasn't being unreasonable, etc.

Originally Posted by elucidate

I keep getting all these internal messages...that I can hear from my father berating me for "All the things I've done for you, how could you do this to me" and my brother telling me "He fed you and housed you...how can you do this...he paid for your education etc"...just these constant inflow of guilt, and shame.

My answer to all that is: so what? Isn't that what a father is legally obligated to do? Why does he need some sort of reward for doing what he had to do? Even if he went a little extra here and there, he was still just being a parent, and, fine, you're alive and so is he, but... so what? And because he fed you and clothed you and occasionally did something nice for you, does that somehow cancel out or make right all the stuff that led to your estrangement from him?

Originally Posted by elucidate

I do cord cutting and it goes away for a while, and then it strikes again, and I start the cycle all over again

Keep doing the cord cutting, and you might want to look into various forms of psychic self-defence (or self-defense; just a different dialect). Learning to put up emotional "shields" will help.

Originally Posted by elucidate

I should just call him because he's getting old and what if he dies

See, I don't get this. I don't understand what death has to do with it. He's going to eventually, but what does it have to do with you? Do you think that if you call him, he'll be all supportive and kind and not tell you that you're crazy and overreacting and whatever other thing he throws at you? You know he's going to do the same things, say the same things, be the same man. What good would calling him do, and what's it got to do with him dying? (I'm not being a smart-alec; I really don't see what death has to do with it.)

Originally Posted by elucidate

I have to waste more energy convincing myself again that it's not just me being crazy.

You're not being crazy. You're going through a grieving process. It comes in waves, and it will eventually get more and more bearable with longer periods between the waves. It's never a happy thing to cut off contact with one's family, no matter how toxic they are, and it takes time to adjust to that. Especially when they invested a lot of time and energy into making you automatically feel guilty when you're not playing the games they created, and not playing the role they defined for you.

Originally Posted by elucidate

but if I open that door again, it's just gonna go back to the way it was...or is it?

Well, if you really want to know, you can contact them and see, but I think you actually DO know the answer to it, already.

Originally Posted by elucidate

I also can feel dad is worried about me and misses me and is sad.

I've picked that up from my father, too, but for me it was just all too little, too late. If he cared so much, well, he had plenty of opportunities to show it, and I suspect that my father is really only sad for himself. I don't think he actually cares much about me, at all. He's only sorry that he got caught, basically.

Originally Posted by elucidate

I was hoping if you could reassure me that this is normal

It is.

Originally Posted by elucidate

I have some fears about how I will be treated if I do establish contact with them again, seeing as they all don't even admit that any abuse has happened, and don't even see what they've done, so to them I'm just being crazy and childish and stupid...oh and don't forget "Ungrateful".

Bingo! Leopards, spots, you know the saying.

Originally Posted by elucidate

Just because I refuse to put up with boundary violations and gaslighting does not mean I'm not grateful for everything they have done for me in my life. It's just another guilt trip..."selfish" "ungrateful".

Yes, it's a means of controlling you, so you will keep on in your assigned role and play your assigned part in the family drama.

Originally Posted by elucidate

how terrible of me to not want to be used anymore.

After all, they had sex and made a baby, and then honoured their legal obligations and societal expectations and you survived to adulthood, so you should be at their beck and call forever more? Yeah, I know that one... (and my parents actually conceived me in the back seat of a car when they were not married, so in my case, it's even more ridiculous )

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by ButterflyWoman

I understand. It took me a long time to come to terms with my estrangement from my parents, actually. I always knew it was the healthiest decision for me, and I felt immediately better when I was no longer in contact with them, but I still had moments where I'd have to examine it all again and make sure it was the right thing and that I wasn't being unreasonable, etc.

Thankyou. Needed to hear that someone else had been through the same thing, even though I know you have. It still helps to read it and feel reassured. I can assure myself, but it never feels as comforting as when I read that another human being has been through the same thing and that it is normal.

I think it's one time when our own words aren't as effective in affirmation as someone elses...which is interesting.

My answer to all that is: so what? Isn't that what a father is legally obligated to do? Why does he need some sort of reward for doing what he had to do? Even if he went a little extra here and there, he was still just being a parent, and, fine, you're alive and so is he, but... so what? And because he fed you and clothed you and occasionally did something nice for you, does that somehow cancel out or make right all the stuff that led to your estrangement from him?

Yes, I tell myself this. it doesn't make it ok that he do these things...and I'm tired of attracting men who are the same. It seems that every man I've ever had anything to do with has been the same in the way they think. "I'll be nice to her for a while and then I can just be a total prick and it's ok because I did this for her...so what's she got to complain about...she gets treated well enough"

Um...no!

Keep doing the cord cutting, and you might want to look into various forms of psychic self-defence (or self-defense; just a different dialect). Learning to put up emotional "shields" will help.

I've been reading some interesting posts in the psychic section between rei and midnite and tried a few things out, to see what feels the most effective.

See, I don't get this. I don't understand what death has to do with it. He's going to eventually, but what does it have to do with you? Do you think that if you call him, he'll be all supportive and kind and not tell you that you're crazy and overreacting and whatever other thing he throws at you? You know he's going to do the same things, say the same things, be the same man. What good would calling him do, and what's it got to do with him dying? (I'm not being a smart-alec; I really don't see what death has to do with it.)

I don't get it either?

I know intellectually everything you are saying is right, and I agree. I've even had the attitude before that "it's only death"...and in my belief system, technically, if I wanted to I can communicate with him any time I want and have it out, in a place where he will no longer have anything to lose and there will be no need to lie...only truth. I've actually thought I'd have a better relationship with him once he's dead...which is kinda warped really.

You're not being crazy. You're going through a grieving process. It comes in waves, and it will eventually get more and more bearable with longer periods between the waves. It's never a happy thing to cut off contact with one's family, no matter how toxic they are, and it takes time to adjust to that. Especially when they invested a lot of time and energy into making you automatically feel guilty when you're not playing the games they created, and not playing the role they defined for you.

Yes. I haven't really let myself acknowledge this fully, but I am grieving. I guess it's because in the past, when I have been through stuff that required a grieving process, no one around me would let me grieve. I came to associate grieving with rejection and being a social outcast. I know I'm supported here though...it just is something I'm not really used to and feel like I need to ease into allowing myself to be supported.

Well, if you really want to know, you can contact them and see, but I think you actually DO know the answer to it, already.

Yes, I do. It's silly I know, but I keep falling into this line of thinking, even though I know it makes no sense. It's my second mind or something...?

I've picked that up from my father, too, but for me it was just all too little, too late. If he cared so much, well, he had plenty of opportunities to show it, and I suspect that my father is really only sad for himself. I don't think he actually cares much about me, at all. He's only sorry that he got caught, basically.

I think it's that as well...but I also feel that he misses me, but only so he can complain about his life and have someone give him compassion, even though he showed me none when I was in hell.

He cares about me in his own twisted way...but it's not what I consider to be really caring about a human being. He has to control and you can't care truly about someone and try and control them.

Bingo! Leopards, spots, you know the saying.

Yep! it's the same ole same ole.

Yes, it's a means of controlling you, so you will keep on in your assigned role and play your assigned part in the family drama.

Thankyou for the reminder. I know this but I don't always remind myself of this being the reason for it. I am too caught up in the emotional stuff at the time, and only later can I see it for what it is. Well, that's not exactly true. I can see what is going on, but I get so caught up in trying to not give into the guilt because I refuse to let them control me...

After all, they had sex and made a baby, and then honoured their legal obligations and societal expectations and you survived to adulthood, so you should be at their beck and call forever more? Yeah, I know that one... (and my parents actually conceived me in the back seat of a car when they were not married, so in my case, it's even more ridiculous )

haha...I can always count on you to bring me to the brink of tears and then make me smile all in the same post.

[elucidate]

I feel so much better...so relieved. Thankyou again all.

[Acting Like Godot]

Now I can better understand your comments about my posts where I talk about the importance of family; the joy of raising children; and love & respect between family members etc.

Your family is very dysfunctional. I'm sorry to hear about these problems you have had to deal with.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

Now I can better understand your comments about my posts where I talk about the importance of family; the joy of raising children; and love & respect between family members etc.

Your family is very dysfunctional. I'm sorry to hear about these problems you have had to deal with.

Thanks ALG.

I was half expecting a lecture about the importance of family staying together...but you surprised me...in a good way.

I also believe that family is important...and as a wise old cado has said, I reserve the right to choose who my real family is.

We did have a joyful childhood, no question. The dysfunction only became apparent to me when I was about 18.

[Lanya]

It does suck when part of your feelings want to go down a path you know is horrible for you.

You really don't like that wanting to contact your family is part of how you feel, do you? Maybe you even feel betrayed by your own feelings for wanting that?

[ButterflyWoman]

Originally Posted by elucidate

I can always count on you to bring me to the brink of tears and then make me smile all in the same post.

I'm weirdly talented, what can I say.

[ssandra]

I just wanted to say that I love you, and think you are a wonderful woman.

You know what I would get angry about? If you didn't put yourself first. If you were to keep in touch with your family because of guilt or anything.

Because nobody is as important as YOU. You have to take care of you. And YOU deserve people in your life who support you for being you, who love you for being you.

You are doing the right thing and moving forward towards YOUR future!

I love you!!

[The Cloud]

It sounds like you're coming from a powerless position of "THEY are the reason I don't talk to them," instead of "I am the reason I don't talk to them." You're not hurt because they do bad things, you're hurt because you've chosen the bad things they do as a criteria for controlling how you behave toward them, making you a slave to their worst attributes.

You're thinking is that there are so many things wrong with them that you're not allowed to act the way you want to act. You can't forget them, and you can't forgive them, because they are people you look to when you want to know if you're happy. If you forgot about them, then that would be the same as forgiving them. They're the people you look to in part because they are so awful; you feel that if people like that exist, then they are required to be unhappy, and to have them be so close to you is unbearable.

It's a very complex issue, and there's no one thing I can say that will change your thinking, so I'll leave you with a thread that I've tried to live by since I first read it;

Originally Posted by Karanime

If you're in a situation where there is any good at all, there is no instance in which you should leave that good behind. Never sacrifice the good for the bad, or else you'll have more situations of the same.

If you're in an emotionally abusive relationship, the answer is not to leave the relationship.

The answer is to not be affected by the abuse.

Don't tell the Universe you will sacrifice the good to escape the bad. What does that show in you? That you'll run from something that makes you happy, if it means it's inconvenient?

You're not in an abusive relationship. Their words are their own, and you know they don't affect you. You can change the relationship this way. You don't have to run. You can keep the good and discard the bad.

Intentions start in the mind, not in the body. It is with thought, not action that we re-create our realities. If you can change the way you think about your life, instead of making physical changes to it, you leave the Universe to do its part with no effort from you. As it should be.

Do not sacrifice--the Universe will think it's okay to destroy the things you love.

I will never give it that permission.

/<3

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by Lanya

It does suck when part of your feelings want to go down a path you know is horrible for you.

You really don't like that wanting to contact your family is part of how you feel, do you? Maybe you even feel betrayed by your own feelings for wanting that?

I wouldn't say I actively dislike it, it just confuses things.

I don't know that I feel betrayed by my feelings for wanting that. On some level I know it's normal to want to contact them, and having been in the habit of contacting them for many years, it's a hard thing to just stop all together without some sort of 'withdrawal'.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by ssandra

I just wanted to say that I love you, and think you are a wonderful woman.

Thankyou.

You know what I would get angry about? If you didn't put yourself first. If you were to keep in touch with your family because of guilt or anything.

I think this is what stops me when I get the urge to. I don't want to be in contact with them out of guilt, I want to want to contact them. Yesterday I really missed them all and wanted to...it's the closest I've come in months to that state.

Because nobody is as important as YOU. You have to take care of you. And YOU deserve people in your life who support you for being you, who love you for being you.

Yes, and they don't really. My mother shows no support for me as an artist. She didn't even support me when I was clinically depressed, and thought I was faking it to get out of working.

I have drawn supportive people into my life now, and i'm happy to just stick with them.

You are doing the right thing and moving forward towards YOUR future!

I love you!!

Yes, I know, it just feels bad at times. Thankyou. Love to you too.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by The Cloud

It sounds like you're coming from a powerless position of "THEY are the reason I don't talk to them," instead of "I am the reason I don't talk to them." You're not hurt because they do bad things, you're hurt because you've chosen the bad things they do as a criteria for controlling how you behave toward them, making you a slave to their worst attributes.

At first I was very challenged by this, but I think this is right in that I am the reason I am not talking to them. I have tried to remember their good attributes, but I just find it very hard to get past the fact that he read my diary and then lied to me about how he ended up there in the first place, and then twisted it to make me look like I was the one doing damage to the relationship.

I can't stand that he never takes any responsability for his actions, and then treats me like I'm being a child for calling him on really violating behavior which he won't even apologize for and has justified as being a good thing as he was able to "set me straight" about not doing anything to my brother...which I don't fully believe but he thinks I 'should', just because he told me!

Whenever I remember what he did, I feel so disgusted and just don't want to talk to him. That's natural I think. I refuse to just act like it never happened, which is his modus operandi.

You're thinking is that there are so many things wrong with them that you're not allowed to act the way you want to act.

I don't agree with this. This isn't how I am thinking at all...I just don't find them supportive or healthy people for me to be around.

You can't forget them, and you can't forgive them, because they are people you look to when you want to know if you're happy.

No. I don't look to them for this reason. The past has shown me that I was not very happy around them at all and they unconsciously transferred all their unhappiness onto me growing up, which they don't even know they did.

If you forgot about them, then that would be the same as forgiving them. They're the people you look to in part because they are so awful; you feel that if people like that exist, then they are required to be unhappy, and to have them be so close to you is unbearable.

Now it's starting to feel like you are telling me how I am feeling rather than ASKING ME how I am feeling. This is wrong by the way. I don't feel this way.

It's a very complex issue, and there's no one thing I can say that will change your thinking, so I'll leave you with a thread that I've tried to live by since I first read it;

Thanks. I agree with the basic tenet of what karanime is saying, and I operated from this mode of thinking for a long time. Now, I just don't want them around me.

It's not because of the abuse although that is unpleasant of course, and I know I don't have to let that get to me, and usually I don't...It is more that they are just not that decent human beings to me. They never admit to what they do, they NEVER apologize, and they deny me my reality and act like I'm stupid for feeling the way I do...who would want to be around people like that. They have raised me to always apologize and make right any wrongs I do, and they can't even do that themselves.

They have pushed me away with their behavior, I have not wanted to be pushed away. I have gone back to them and placed myself in very toxic living arrangements...where they rejected me and threw me out on the street when I was suicidal and had just been raped. I know they didn't really understand what was going on for me, but my father didn't even care that I'd been raped!

Is that really people you suggest sticking around? My father thinks pedophilia is "ok" and that the child secretly likes it. Is that someone to look up to and want to be around? My brother wanted to use me in a porn film so he could make some money. Is that someone I should be around who is good for me?

I don't feel like you are taking in the reality of my situation very well.

If they weren't my parents, I wouldn't want much to do with them in spite of all the good things they've done for me. It doesn't mean the bad things are something to just be cast aside and forgotten. Those moments in the past have left a a huge stain on my psyche and it's hard to just get over.

[Lanya]

Originally Posted by elucidate

I wouldn't say I actively dislike it, it just confuses things.

I don't know that I feel betrayed by my feelings for wanting that. On some level I know it's normal to want to contact them, and having been in the habit of contacting them for many years, it's a hard thing to just stop all together without some sort of 'withdrawal'.

Okay.

Now I fully understand what projection is, and that I was totally projecting just now . Thanks for the feedback, and I'm sorry I couldn't be more helpful.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by Lanya

Okay.

Now I fully understand what projection is, and that I was totally projecting just now . Thanks for the feedback, and I'm sorry I couldn't be more helpful.

It's great that you picked up on that. Kudos.

It's nice to meet someone willing to be honest and admit to this, and also someone who is capable of admitting that they may not have been that helpful. Most people just expect gratitude for all they've done to 'help' without questioning whether they really did help...so, you are a rare fish.

For the record, you're comment didn't not help!

[Curious cat]

Originally Posted by elucidate

they all act like nothing is wrong and like we are all happy family

Hey, can I ask if this is why you feel uncomfortable when people are 'polite'? I just recall a conversation in RR's thread about rage where you seemed to attach a negative spin on politeness. I could be wrong and misinterpreted? It was my initial impression though.

I hope you are feeling better today. It's such a lovely day here in Sydney.

[The Cloud]

Originally Posted by elucidate

I have tried to remember their good attributes, but I just find it very hard to get past the fact that he read my diary and then lied to me about how he ended up there in the first place, and then twisted it to make me look like I was the one doing damage to the relationship.

You've made this into a competition of good versus evil/bad/ugly, which means that sometimes good has to lose. In a case like this one, good almost always loses. You are the one that is damaging the relationship, because you're the one that created the competition in which evil can win, a competition that exists only in your perception. You gave evil the opportunity to wreak the havoc that is being wreaked.

You created a relationship which can be damaged, and therefore it is your responsibility that such damage occurs. You made the rules that are being broken and the consequences that are being suffered (both by yourself and your family), and judging by your families' character, those rules will continue to be broken as long as you continue to live by them.

You have two choices; you can discard your rules, or you can discard your notions of living without the consequences you suffer when those rules are broken. Technically, you have three choices, but the third is to just continue to do as you're doing right now.

Originally Posted by elucidate

Now it's starting to feel like you are telling me how I am feeling rather than ASKING ME how I am feeling. This is wrong by the way. I don't feel this way.

I was telling instead of asking. I sometimes find it's better to hypothesize the way things are and be wrong than it is to ask how things are and not get a useful answer. You've already written so much that I'm not likely to learn anything new no matter how many questions I ask. I'm not feeling very intuitive today, so I kind of took the guess-and-pray approach to see what would happen.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by The Cloud

You've made this into a competition of good versus evil/bad/ugly, which means that sometimes good has to lose. In a case like this one, good almost always loses. You are the one that is damaging the relationship, because you're the one that created the competition in which evil can win, a competition that exists only in your perception. You gave evil the opportunity to wreak the havoc that is being wreaked.

Um, no!

LIES are what cause damage to the relationship by destroying trust, and in this case....he is the one who lied to me about how he ended up in my diary.

I don't know what you are talking about to be honest. There is no competition between good and evil going on in my mind.

It sounds like more PD create your own reality bs to me. I take no responsability for the damage that HE caused by his lies. In relationships I am only willing to take on my share of responsability and that is all. It is up to the other party to take on their share of responsability in any conflict and if they are unwilling to do this then that is not my issue.

You created a relationship which can be damaged, and therefore it is your responsibility that such damage occurs. You made the rules that are being broken and the consequences that are being suffered (both by yourself and your family), and judging by your families' character, those rules will continue to be broken as long as you continue to live by them.

I did no such thing. Relationships are based on TRUST.

LIES destroy trust.

He lied to me and destroyed trust between us...AND he violated my personal privacy boundaries and justified it to himself.

I didn't create a relationship that can be damaged by placing these rules on relationships...relationships CAN be damaged by lies...that's not my doing, that's just the way it is!

He is the one who is responsable for this...not me. You seem to be trying to make it look like this is my doing. I don't get where you are coming from at all?

You have two choices; you can discard your rules, or you can discard your notions of living without the consequences you suffer when those rules are broken. Technically, you have three choices, but the third is to just continue to do as you're doing right now.

There's a third option here. I can discard what you are saying!

I have no idea what you are talking about.

I'm grieving.

I'm not interested in being told where I need to "take the power back" right now. I'm interested in feeling better and being supported through my grief process.

I think the problem here is that men like to feel like they can "fix" a situation when a woman present an issue in this way. Men are solution, action oriented...but really, all I need right now is for people to listen. I don't need advice, or to be fixed. You will help me much more if you can just listen without trying to fix or solve my problem.

I need empathy, not advice.

I was telling instead of asking. I sometimes find it's better to hypothesize the way things are and be wrong than it is to ask how things are and not get a useful answer. You've already written so much that I'm not likely to learn anything new no matter how many questions I ask. I'm not feeling very intuitive today, so I kind of took the guess-and-pray approach to see what would happen.

Well, that may be what YOU think is the best way to do things...but that isn't, in reality, the best way to do things with ME! Please, if you would find a more respectful, less rude way of approaching me I'd appreciate it.

You assumed that by asking me you would get an answer that wasn't useful...to you! I'm not really interested in being asked any questions though.

I clearly stated at the beginning of this thread that I didn't want any advice...only comforting, wise words from people who have been through similar experiences to me. Have you been through what I am going through?

My aim was clearly outlined, but you decided to take it in a direction you wanted...which isn't what is helpful to me right now, so please, I'm asking you to refrain from going down this track further. It's not helpful to me right now. I'm grieving, I need to feel supported emotionally and comforted...not be given the PD spiel...again! Maybe when I am not grieving as much, then I will look at what you said, but right now...it's not really appropriate timing. Please respect MY process.

I'm sure you feel that you are helping me in your own way here by telling what I don't want to hear, and I appreciate the thought, but that isn't what I need right now, and frankly I'm a bit sick of some people deciding they know what I do need around here better than I do. It's arrogant.

I'm sorry if I sound perturbed, but your post was kinda upsetting to me. I don't want to be analyzed right now...I need to be supported while I'm grieving. I thought apart from me actually outlining that clearly with words that it would be obvious.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by Curious cat

Hey, can I ask if this is why you feel uncomfortable when people are 'polite'? I just recall a conversation in RR's thread about rage where you seemed to attach a negative spin on politeness. I could be wrong and misinterpreted? It was my initial impression though.

I hope you are feeling better today. It's such a lovely day here in Sydney.

You're assuming you know that I felt that. I can sort of see why you concluded this from the quote you added, but I don't think it has to do with politeness. Them acting like nothing is wrong isn't politeness anyway, it's denial.

Who said I feel uncomfortable when people are polite? It seems more that polite people feel uncomfortable with bluntness actually.

I don't have a problem with politeness at all...it is necessary in society, I just think people don't ALWAYS have to be so polite. You can be raw and just say what you think without worrying so much about offending anyone...that's freedom of speech.

Constantly censoring every little thing you want to say incase you offend someone when you don't even really know if it will offend, is restrictive. Political correctness has served to impose even more restriction on us.

If it's a topic that is sensitive, of course it is wise to be tactful but being always so polite doesn't have a lot of appeal to me. I enjoy a bit of bluntness...that's all.

Do you associate bluntness with rudeness? I ask because I know another woman on here who has said as much to me in the past and thinks that bluntness is rude. I don't think they are the same thing at all.

I'd really prefer it if, from now on, people would start asking me what I feel instead of telling me...even if they think it is a "more useful strategy" to hypothesize (The Cloud).

Thankyou.

[Curious cat]

I apologise if my question offended you in any way. It was my impression, that is all. If you say that i was wrong then i can accept that. Making you any unhappier at this stage is not what i want.

To answer your question, no i don't associate rudeness with bluntness. I myself prefer to be direct.

Anyway, I wish you well.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by Curious cat

I apologise if my question offended you in any way. It was my impression, that is all. If you say that i was wrong then i can accept that. Making you any unhappier at this stage is not what i want.

To answer your question, no i don't associate rudeness with bluntness. I myself prefer to be direct.

Anyway, I wish you well.

Thanks.

You didn't make me unhappier. I just was a bit upset from reading The Clouds analysis of me prior to reading your post, so that's probably what you were picking up on.

I've had a nap now so I feel much better.

Thanks for answering as well and for all your input here.