E-Begging - Is It Wrong?

[Umbungo]

Is E-Begging wrong? I personally think it is. The reason why I think it is, is because I don't quite understand as to why people do it and expect people online who they don't really know and vice versa to give them money in the form of 'donations' for a reason that may not even be true or exist.

I think it is rather gullible for people to fall for this for the following reasons:

1. A person who is popular on a particular website, (anyone online can invent themselves on who they want people to believe them to be) once they've got enough 'fans' and 'friends' that give that person support and nice comments, that person then has the cheek to turn round and ask them for money in the form of donations to pay for something that this person can't afford. I think it is a bit of a slap in the face for this person to do this.

2. Also, the person that is e-begging for something that this person can't afford might not even be true either and may just keep the money to spend on his/her self on luxery and then you don't hear from this person ever again and the the website completely stops.

3. If you think about it, if the internet didn't exist, would this person be begging for money on the streets instead? If a person really needs money, there are always jobs out there that are legal and can easily pay your way. Some jobs may be rock bottom jobs, but as long as it pays, any job is better than no job, all you've got to do is go out and look hard with persistance.

One example of one person that annoyed me a bit (I won't mention this person's name) runs a Website and You Tube Channel that helps people with Social Anxiety Disorder as well being a Forum member here which I had a bit of respect for and supported in posting nice comments on this person's You Tube Channel. There was one instance that happened a while back late last year where this person made a thread on this Forum as well as posting on Facebook and You Tube e-begging people to 'donate' money to pay for this person's pet dog's vet operation.

This annoyed me a bit because I didn't think this person was the kind of person to stoop as low as this and there was actually no proof in showing as to whether this person's dog really existed or really needed an operation. As far as I and anyone else would know, this person could have just taken the money and run and never hear from ever again. This then made me feel reluctant in continuing to support this person emotionally wise as I wasn't even sure anymore if this person really has Social Anxiety Disorder and may be using this 'illness' as well as 'looks' as a front to get money off people.

The only time I would ever give money to people would either be a close relative or a really close friend who I fully 100% trust. But for someone online who I don't really know, no way.

That's my rant over. What does everyone else think?

[Merr]

First of all, I get the impression that you may already be a member here but you don't feel comfortable being honest about your point of view. At least, not in terms of your real identity on here. I may be mistaken about this, so if so, my apologies.

Secondly, I agree with you and think you've made a lot of good points. I much prefer it when people freely admit that they are providing some kind of service for me (or indeed vice versa) and expect payment for that. The idea of asking for 'donations' is something that doesn't sit easily with me but I wasn't able to articulate those reasons. You have managed to do that for me, so thank you.

On a side note, I always wonder about the 'average' donation statistic that appears on some sites. Is this created by an actual mathematical formula or is it made up?

[irfan]

Your question already implies the answer: begging is almost always a pejorative term. How about if you'd phrased it as "Is it wrong to ask for donations on the internet?" Would that paraphrase evoke a different emotional response?

I don't usually donate for sick dogs, but that's just me.

I like making small paypal donations to causes or projects that I approve of, though. It's a cheap and easy way for me to feel good about myself.

[irfan]

Originally Posted by Umbungo

3. If you think about it, if the internet didn't exist, would this person be begging for money on the streets instead? If a person really needs money, there are always jobs out there that are legal and can easily pay your way. Some jobs may be rock bottom jobs, but as long as it pays, any job is better than no job, all you've got to do is go out and look hard with persistance.

Okay, a real hypothetical: my sister has been riding a push-bike from Alaska down through the Americas. She has an excellent blog, which I enjoy reading. On that blog, she asks for donations. She gets quite a positive response! I donate partly because I love my sister, but also for the pleasure I get out of reading her blog.

This would fall quite squarely into the type of behavior of which you disapprove.

So, what about paying to go and see a documentary film about a gutsy woman riding her bike on her own? Why is it different from paying for the pleasure of reading a blog? Isn't it just a matter of a slightly different payment model?

[Merr]

Originally Posted by irfan

Okay, a real hypothetical: my sister has been riding a push-bike from Alaska down through the Americas. She has an excellent blog, which I enjoy reading. On that blog, she asks for donations. She gets quite a positive response! I donate partly because I love my sister, but also for the pleasure I get out of reading her blog.

This would fall quite squarely into the type of behavior of which you disapprove.

So, what about paying to go and see a documentary film about a gutsy woman riding her bike on her own? Why is it different from paying for the pleasure of reading a blog? Isn't it just a matter of a slightly different payment model?

Because some people are not making donations out of pleasure of reading, they're doing it because they feel obligated to or because they like the person. Also, still no 'begging' involved in the documentary. It's quite blatant about the need for you to pay for pleasure. Also, I actually find it worse than people begging on the street as at least people who beg on the street are open about it. People online (it seems to me) try and make out like it's something different.

[irfan]

Originally Posted by Merr

... they're doing it because they feel obligated to ...

I think we should each take responsibility for our own guilt feelings. Just stop feeling obligated!

[Merr]

Originally Posted by irfan

I think we should each take responsibility for our own guilt feelings. Just stop feeling obligated!

True. I don't feel obligated and have never donated to one of these sites. Although the reasons above resonated with me, I think my example of a beggar on the street versus a beggar online is something I can expand on.

People online maintain that they are providing some kind of services and that although you are not obligated to donate that you can if you want to. If I wanted to donate to a site, I would find a way to do it! The very sight of a donation button makes me feel like I am expected to donate regardless of what the person may claim and I don't like the way that it feels. Especially when there is an 'average' donation listed as well. I'd love to have that particular question answered.

An example in life sums it all up for me. At school, there was a boy who was always asking people for money for soda, chocolate or whatever because he never had any money. I don't know the reasons for this. He would openly state what he would use the money for, you would see him use it and he would with a grin say 'you do realise you're never going to see this money again, don't you?' prior to it being passed to him. I loved the shameless honesty. I loved the way he didn't try and pretend that he was giving anything to me and I don't think he ever did feel like he was giving anything to me. Inadvertently though, he did give me somethiing - pure honesty - and I liked it.

So to sum up, I like giving to those who freely admit that they have nothing to give me rather than those who tell me that they are giving to me and although they don't expect something in return, they would like it. Honestly? If I felt like I was giving something to someone and wasn't willing to outright ask for payment, I know what I'd want my 'payback' to be. Not a donation but for that knowledge that was beneficial to be passed onto others.

[irfan]

Merr, fair enough. It's your money! I imagine people who develop sofware ("donationware") or otherwise put energy into a project that they support through donations are fully aware that a proportion, perhaps the great majority, of those using the service will not donate. But they figure, or hope, or wish that enough people will think otherwise.

It's just one business model.

I don't mind it. In my case, it's multi level marketing that brings me out in a rash. Maybe there's something in our respective psyches that makes us react like this? I don't know, I haven't done psychoanalysis.

I live in a city where there are a lot of disabled beggars. I never give money to people who knock on car windows and such. I don't resent them asking, but I just don't give money to them.

[Brutha]

The very sight of a donation button makes me feel like I am expected to donate regardless of what the person may claim and I don't like the way that it feels.

Basically you want to get something from other people for free and don't like to feel like you owe them something in return?

This annoyed me a bit because I didn't think this person was the kind of person to stoop as low as this and there was actually no proof in showing as to whether this person's dog really existed or really needed an operation. As far as I and anyone else would know, this person could have just taken the money and run and never hear from ever again. This then made me feel reluctant in continuing to support this person emotionally wise as I wasn't even sure anymore if this person really has Social Anxiety Disorder and may be using this 'illness' as a front to get money off people.

If her website helps other people what's wrong with her benefiting financially from it?

[elucidate]

I guess it depends for me.

There is a person who used to frequent this forum and still shows up now and then who did what you have mentioned, and used their 'charms' and personal issues to manipulate people into donating to their 'cause', which they did not even spend wisely. I don't really approve of it, but understand that people are people and will take advantage of an audience if they think they can suck people into feeling sorry for them.

I come from Australia, and have friends who don't mind giving their money to friends when they need it...so I don't see that as 'begging', but I can see how many people would feel uncomfortable asking. I personally wouldn't mind giving money to people I consider friends, if I've known them for a period of time and they've stayed consistent.

Aborigines here have a code where they will give pretty much anything they own to their family, and I think that's a good way to be. It doesn't apply to everyone though, just a select crowd. There are people I would give money to here, if I had it. That doesn't mean they would feel right about receiving it though.

Begging is just unattractive though, wherever you do it.

If someone offers insight in the form of a blog, then I may feel the desire to give them something in return, but I don't feel obliged to.

[Bradshaw]

Some pretty disempowering beliefs about money you've got there.

You're obviously talking about RoxyRuby, and I don't see anything wrong with it to be honest. Using the word "E-Begging" doesn't make it evil or bad.

You're projecting a lot, basically. There's nothing wrong with asking for stuff. The person isn't imposing her will onto others and forcing them to do something they don't want to do.

People only donate if they want to. Nobody forces them.

[irfan]

Originally Posted by elucidate

Begging is just unattractive though, wherever you do it.

The monks in Luang Prabang, Laos, manage to make it look picturesque enough!

[Umbungo]

Originally Posted by Bradshaw

Some pretty disempowering beliefs about money you've got there.

You're obviously talking about RoxyRuby, and I don't see anything wrong with it to be honest. Using the word "E-Begging" doesn't make it evil or bad.

You're projecting a lot, basically. There's nothing wrong with asking for stuff. The person isn't imposing her will onto others and forcing them to do something they don't want to do.

People only donate if they want to. Nobody forces them.

But why do it in the first place when you can easily get a job and earn enough money to pay your way? There are jobs out there, it's basically having the confidence to go out there and look and not give up.

I'm not saying that this person was forcing people to give money, but was instead asking through using a kind of manipulation as well as charms and looks to encourage people to feel sorry and donate money to something that might not even be true. I think if someone donated and found out that what they donated for was possibly a lie, the person who donated would feel cheated as well feeling like an idiot for being suckered into it because of the 'charms' of this person.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by irfan

The monks in Luang Prabang, Laos, manage to make it look picturesque enough!

Yes, maybe it's all the orange?

Personally I like a person to give something back if they are gonna ask for money from complete strangers.

[irfan]

Umbungo, even people with jobs are occasionally guilty of psychological manipulation. Do you feel the same resentment towards advertising executives as you do to "beggars" when changing your brand of underarm deodorant doesn't instantly get you laid with the hunky guy / foxy lady / pick your gender of your choice?

[irfan]

Originally Posted by elucidate

Yes, maybe it's all the orange?

Hehe. Yeah. How come it doesn't look so charming when it comes from a Hare Krishna on Swanston street?

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by Bradshaw

Some pretty disempowering beliefs about money you've got there.

I'm not sure if you are referring to me or the OP?

If you are referring to my post above yours then that's your opinion of course. I think I've come a long way in my beliefs concerning money. You're allowed to think what you will though.

You're obviously talking about RoxyRuby, and I don't see anything wrong with it to be honest. Using the word "E-Begging" doesn't make it evil or bad.

I never said it is evil or bad or wrong...just distasteful to me. This thread is asking for personal opinions...that is mine, just as this is yours. Again, this is all assuming you were referring to my post and not the OP?

Begging suggests a certain lack of dignity to me, unless you really are desperate and have no other options.

I didn't want to get into naming names, but since you felt the need to bring it out in the open, then yes, Roxy ruby lives in a country where she can claim the dole, which is basically the same thing as asking for people online to give her money... without having to use her personal problems to get it.

You're projecting a lot, basically. There's nothing wrong with asking for stuff. The person isn't imposing her will onto others and forcing them to do something they don't want to do.

I don't think I am, but if you think I am, that's ok.

I never said there is anything wrong to ask for stuff...asking for money takes a certain courage and self-esteem in believing you deserve to receive it.

I don't recall any money ever being asked for though, just personal problems being broad-casted with sexy pictures added to the mix.
Manipulation never forces anyone to do anything. It's always the persons choice.

People only donate if they want to. Nobody forces them.

I realize that. There's a sucker born every minute as they say.

A pretty girl can get just about anyone to give them anything they want. I know this from experience.

[Umbungo]

Originally Posted by irfan

Umbungo, even people with jobs are occasionally guilty of psychological manipulation. Do you feel the same resentment towards advertising executives as you do to "beggars" when changing your brand of underarm deodorant doesn't instantly get you laid with the hunky guy / foxy lady / pick your gender of your choice?

It's different with Advertising because it is an actual trade and legal profession in which the money they get is used to pay for the company bills, wages etc. I've not got an issue with that. What I'm really talking about which annoys me is people who beg for money from strangers to spend it on themselves because they can't be bothered in working for a living and earning their own money and instead make up an excuse for not doing so.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by irfan

Hehe. Yeah. How come it doesn't look so charming when it comes from a Hare Krishna on Swanston street?

Oh you know Melbourne?

Maybe it's to do with the fact that they all seem so off the planet?

[moonrambler]

FYI, I've banned the OP because he is running a duplicate account, of christianyethboth, who has spent most of his time here digging up roxy's old threads and responding to them in a very positive way.

To create a post expressing concern about donations is one thing, but to call out the member so obviously with a new user ID, while meanwhile acting so positive to her in another persona, is nasty behavior, IMO.

In any case, duplicate accounts are against forum rules.

[irfan]

Originally Posted by elucidate

Oh you know Melbourne?

Yeah, I was born there. Great town! but I haven't lived there for a long time.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by moonrambler

FYI, I've banned the OP because he is running a duplicate account, of christianyeboth, who has spent most of his time here digging up roxy's old threads and responding to them in a very positive way.

To create a post expressing concern about donations is one thing, but to call out the member so obviously with a new user ID, while meanwhile acting so positive to her in another persona, is nasty behavior, IMO.

In any case, duplicate accounts are against forum rules.

Interesting.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by irfan

Yeah, I was born there. Great town! but I haven't lived there for a long time.

You've been exploring Asia, if I've read correctly.

I've been here for 7 years now...it's still awesome.

I get fed up every now and then, but that doesn't last long.

[Agota]

Originally Posted by Brutha

Basically you want to get something from other people for free and don't like to feel like you owe them something in return?
If her website helps other people what's wrong with her benefiting financially from it?

Spot on!

I had donation buttons on my blog and I've once organised a campaign where I was raising funds just to pay my bills and people could download my e-book and donate anything they want starting from 1$. I hardly consider providing loads of quality content for free, which takes time, efforts and skills to create and then giving people an opportunity to give back or running a fundraising campaign when things are tough with money to be unethical. Let's assume you've read twenty articles which I wrote, really enjoyed them and hopefully had at least small perspective shift which made a positive impact on your life. That all was completely free. Would it really be reasonable for you to get outraged with my fund raising campaign or a donation button? I hardly doubt that. I'd say that before you call donation buttons e-begging, it would be good to evaluate the actual situation that most people who, in your words, e-beg, actually create loads of value and give it away completely free. Now, I haven't visited RoxyRuby's website, but assuming her free content really helped me to get my social anxiety under control and I really enjoy this site.. Well, I'd happilly help her to get the money she needs for her dog operation or whatever, assuming I have the means to do that. She helped me first and my life is better now because of something she gave me completely free, right?

I personally get annoyed when there is no donation button on the website. I mean, when person creates something amazing that really helps me, I feel a natural desire to give something back and the easiest way to do so is to make a donation. I'm sure that many people feel the same way.

Oh and c'mon people, seriously, WHO FEELS OBLIGED TO MAKE DONATIONS ONLINE??? I mean, donations is a very ineffective way to generate income from your website, mainly because most people never get the idea to give something back. In my experience, less than 1% of the people who visit my blog make a donation. I really think that the vast majority of people don't feel obliged in any way to make a donation. I think it might be more reasonable not to try to defend those poor vulnerable people who are financially drained by evil webmasters because they feel obligation to make a donation when they see a Donate button..Mainly because people like that doesn't exist.

[Merr]

Originally Posted by elucidate

I come from Australia, and have friends who don't mind giving their money to friends when they need it...so I don't see that as 'begging', but I can see how many people would feel uncomfortable asking. I personally wouldn't mind giving money to people I consider friends, if I've known them for a period of time and they've stayed consistent.

I agree with this. I've freely given to friends when they've been in need for no other reason that because I've wanted to. I remember one friend was in the middle of hard times and needed some money to help with his education during a time things were going very well for me. I told him categorically not to pay the money back and as soon as he had some money, he took me out for dinner. A year later, he paid back every penny in full. I accepted it because it was something that he needed to do.

I feel like I sense a mixture of defensiveness and an attack from Brutha. It makes me wonder if he has a blog somewhere with a donate button. If I get something useful from someone I shouldn't have to feel like I need to provide something in return, I should do it for no other reason than because I want to. I feel the same about doing things for other people. I do it because I want to and don't expect things in return - the friend above being an example.

An e-book to me is different to a blog as if it's valuable, it's something I'd expect to pay for. Therefore, I actually feel like considering the time and effort involved in something like that there should be payment in return. However, a donate button still feels like begging to me. I'd prefer to just flat out state what I think my service is worth and have people take it or leave it rather than have all the issues that come with a donate button.

Also, I can see people's points about not knowing whether the 'cause' is genuine or not. There are so many stories of good, honest people being scammed in this way.

[elucidate]

That's what the whole concept of 'donating' is based on...the same as volunteering...the person chooses to give or not, they aren't obliged. The second the person expects others to give money for what they have offered in a blog they may as well start charging up front for people to read what they have to say and make it official...that's not donation.

[WilliamForrest]

In some countries begging is much more tolerated and in certain cases encouraged. In many, perhaps most, traditional religions, it is considered that a person who gives alms to a worthy beggar, such as a spiritual seeker, gains religious merit.

[moonrambler]

* thread temporarily closed for moderator review *