Forgiveness

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

In a couple of previous threads (here and here if you are interested, but not necessary to follow this post) I talked about the end of a romantic relationship. Now I am wondering how I can truly forgive the person I lost for things he did that hurt me.

How do you define forgiveness?

Do you feel it is necessary to forgive to get over the past?

Is there a difference between the religious (mostly Christian background here, so keep that in mind) idea of forgiveness and letting go of the past?

How do you forgive (I know there are things I've forgiven in the past, but I must have forgotten them too because the process escapes me )?

Does it mean you no longer feel pain when you think of the things you've forgiven?

This is all off the cuff, so forgive me if any of these questions don't make sense. If anyone has any thoughts at all on forgiveness and how to achieve it I am all ears. Basically, I am able to interact with my ex without showing anger, etc., but in my mind and heart I still feel bitterness and pain. That's not the way I want to be.

Thanks!

[Angela]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

in my mind and heart I still feel bitterness and pain. That's not the way I want to be.

Thanks!

Hey, Aspiring! Good for you for having the courage to work this through 'out loud' so to speak. As your mirrors, it's fun for us to work through our corresponding issues along with you.

You don't want to be pain, you say. What do you want to be? In my experience it has worked better to actively be a positive than to avoid being a negative. As long as you're identifying with your pain, you are living in the past, which is a fantasy. How about living powerfully right here and now? Including when you're with Mr. Butthead. When you're with him, is your pain appropriate? Is he kicking you in the shins, or chewing with his mouth open? In the face of being bitter and pained, do you think you might like to try invoking "x"? ("x" being your heart's desire. You might need to take some time to think about what your heart's desire is, and chances are it will apply not only to your relationship but to all areas of your life.) You might want to use a codeword for when you slip into your habitual pain and wish to remind yourself to be your heart's desire. (I recommend to you the codeword, "aspire!" because it means 'to breathe life upon' and it is who you are.)

As far as forgiveness goes, you may want to consider that there might be a more immediate person who would benefit from your forgiveness than Mr. Butthead*, and forgiving that person first smoothes the way for all forgiveness.

I'm looking forward to hearing what people say about forgiveness.

*this name is used to protect the innocent and to amuse the OP. No disrespect to persons living or dead intended.

[Shamou]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}
If anyone has any thoughts at all on forgiveness and how to achieve it I am all ears.

For one thing… I don’t believe in forgiveness… You can tell someone that you forgive them… it may make them feel better… but it’s not going to do anything for you…

However… there is another approach that you can use… and in order to use that approach… you have to consider this…

Unless you are physically aggressed… words and deeds have no inherent capacity to hurt you… except the capacity that you… and you alone… can give it…

If I call you a fool… you and you alone can decide if that is going to hurt you or not… if you were cheated on… you and you alone can decide if that is going to hurt you or not… if someone steals something from you… you and you alone can decide if that will hurt you or not…

If you cannot take those decisions for yourself… you are no better than a robot… that is, you are controlled by outside influences and have no control over yourself…

That being said, saying or thinking that you forgive… will not help you in any way… but, it is in your power to decide that those incident will no longer hurt you… that is what is called, “personal mastery”… and, what I honestly believe to be the only way of getting out of the pain that you are now feeling…

I do wish you the very best… and I certainly hope that the view expressed in this post will not hurt you even more…

.

[Jill]

Forgiveness is something you can choose to consciously do, but only if you're truly ready to forgive. Saying you forgive, but not really forgiving is not helpful.

But there is most definitely such a thing as true forgiveness, regardless of what you are forgiving.

My experience with forgiveness was extremely powerful and changed my life. I was at a point in a relationship where if I was to move on with the relationship, I was going to have to completely forgive the other person for past deeds. My choice (in my mind) was to either get out of the relationship completely (not something I really wanted to do) or forgive completely.

I chose the latter.

Forgiveness doesn't mean that you condone the acts you're forgiving. I think that's where people get messed up with this. You can know what was wrong, and still forgive. It doesn't mean you forget either. You simply take all the hurt and everything that happened, and crumple it up in a ball and let it go.

It's extremely freeing and it will change your life. You don't even need to tell the other person anything about the forgiveness because the fact of the matter is you will begin to treat them differently as a matter of course because you will no longer be thinking of or bringing up all the past misdeeds. You have forgiven them and you now have a clean slate to work with.

It's a really difficult thing to try to explain to people, but if you can really and truly forgive, you won't be sorry. Especially if there are very important people in your life who could use the forgiveness.

[Sanctero]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

In a couple of previous threads (here and here if you are interested, but not necessary to follow this post) I talked about the end of a romantic relationship. Now I am wondering how I can truly forgive the person I lost for things he did that hurt me.

How do you define forgiveness?

Do you feel it is necessary to forgive to get over the past?

Is there a difference between the religious (mostly Christian background here, so keep that in mind) idea of forgiveness and letting go of the past?

How do you forgive (I know there are things I've forgiven in the past, but I must have forgotten them too because the process escapes me )?

Does it mean you no longer feel pain when you think of the things you've forgiven?

This is all off the cuff, so forgive me if any of these questions don't make sense. If anyone has any thoughts at all on forgiveness and how to achieve it I am all ears. Basically, I am able to interact with my ex without showing anger, etc., but in my mind and heart I still feel bitterness and pain. That's not the way I want to be.

Thanks!

Everything that has happened in our past both good and bad has created what and who we are at this present time. What we do at this moment is what creates our future. Forgiveness should become thankful for allow us to become who we are for with out the bad lessons we would not be who we are. Make your own future and forget about past and do somethign now for future.

[betlamed]

As most posters before me, I don't really believe in forgiveness. I believe in owning my emotions, in accepting the responsibilty for my emotional reactions.

To that end, I found was that it was tremendously helpful to actually FEEL how I can take responsibilty for my own feelings.

So I tried something "harmless", something that didn't have any dramatic impplications. Once I found out how I could make myself laugh out loud without any external stimulus, things got a lot easier. I used NLP for that, and it worked great.

Of course, I still had (and still have) a lot to learn. And somewhere along the way, I realized I was about to let go of the idea of guilt. More and more, it was about how to deal with the here and now, and how to be calm and compassionate.

I am also interested in how you see forgiveness, from a christian perspective. What IS forgiveness, from a religious point of view?

bl

[annie]

I have a different perspective...just a few random thoughts this morning....

If we can find forgiveness in our hearts for those who have caused us hurt and injury, we will rise to a higher level of self-esteem and well-being.
Forgiveness is freeing up and putting to better use the energy once consumed by holding grudges, harboring resentments, and nursing unhealed wounds. It is rediscovering the strengths we always had and relocating our limitless capacity to understand and accept other people and ourselves.

Most of us need time to work through pain and loss. We can find all manner of reasons for postponing forgiveness.

Some recent studies show that people who are taught to forgive become "less angry, more hopeful, less depressed, less anxious and less stressed," which leads to greater physical well-being. Another of these studies concludes "that forgiveness . . . is a liberating gift [that] people can give to themselves."

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

I want to thank everyone who's responded so far. Each of you gave me some great points to think on.

@betlamed - You know, I didn't really think of what forgiveness is from a religious point of view when I wrote that...thanks for calling that out. I guess I included it just becuase it is mentioned so much in the Bible. When I really think about it though it seems we were always taught that we should forgive others the way God forgives us (70 x 7 - over and over again, and casting our sins into the sea of forgetfullness - which I take to mean they are forgotten, never to be brought up or used against us again). It's a tall order. I see what you mean about living in the here and now. I know I can't change the past or predict the future, so why should I let them torment me? Can you explain NLP a little more?

@Sanctero - You are right that I should do something now for the future and realize that the past, good and bad as it was, has brought me to this place. Despite a lot of things going on in my life right now, I am truly blessed.

@Jill - I think you touched most closely on the idea I have always had about forgiveness. You are right it is hard to describe. I admire your strength to forgive and leave those things in the past. It's a big part of what I hope to achieve.

@Shamou - Thank you for your frankness. It's true. The only way someone else can hurt me is if I let them. I think I did allow him to hurt me becuase I placed so much of my self worth and emotional security in his hands, where it obviously did not belong. I think I struggle now with the idea of how to love someone 100% and also be detached from them affecting my feelings. I guess that's probably part of the personal mastery you are talking about . Anything else you have to tell me about how to achieve that (or resources/links would be appreciated).

And last, but not least @Angela - When you said there might be a more immediate person that would benefit from my forgiveness did you mean me? I think that's what's making this so hard actually. I'm so angry at myself for giving power over my feelings to someone else, for letting him have what little self esteem I had for myself to play with and for not getting out when I saw the signs early on. I fell head over heals and became the girl I always made fun of - the one who drops everything and does everything for a man who isn't capable of returning the same. I mean, don't get me wrong, he did a lot of sweet things (it's not like he was an ogre or anything) - cooked for me, told me he loved me, gave me affection - but ultimately he's a guy who can basically forget the last year with me ever happened and move on in what seems like an instant. I'm so mad I let this happen to me. Right now, it's so hard to even figure out what my heart's desire is, becuase in a way it's that I still be with him, and that makes me even angrier. Wow, that brought out a lot of things I need to work on, didn't it? I'm getting teary.

I am really thankful for this forum where people seem to really care about others. I appreciate any more thoughts on the matter more than I can say.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

@Annie - I must have been responding at the same time as you. I want all of those things that come along with forgiveness. I definately don't want to be resentful, regret my life or hold grudges. I guess I just haven't figured out how to effectively put it into practice. I know I need to do it, I'm just not sure about the how. This pain is unlike any I've ever experienced - in my heart I feel betrayed by the only person I've ever completely opened my heart to on this level. Any thoughts on how I can achieve this level of forgiveness and let these emotions go?

[Angela]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

And last, but not least @Angela - When you said there might be a more immediate person that would benefit from my forgiveness did you mean me? I think that's what's making this so hard actually. I'm so angry at myself for giving power over my feelings to someone else, for letting him have what little self esteem I had for myself to play with and for not getting out when I saw the signs early on. I fell head over heals and became the girl I always made fun of - the one who drops everything and does everything for a man who isn't capable of returning the same. I mean, don't get me wrong, he did a lot a sweet things (it's not like he was an ogre or anything) - cooked for me, told me he loved me, gave me affection - but ultimately he's a guy who can basically forget the last year with me ever happened and move on in what seems like an instant. I'm so mad I let this happen to me. Right now, it's so hard to even figure out what my heart's desire is, becuase in a way it's that I still be with him, and that makes me even angrier. Wow, that brought out a lot of things I need to work on, didn't it? I'm getting teary.

Yup! What you've done and who you've been in this relationship is perfect. You will find the understanding and experience you've gained, by being exactly who you are and exactly who you are not, will be an integral part of the loving and delightful relationship you next create, and for yourself on your own. You have demonstrated to yourself that you are capable of deep love and generosity. You can see that you are a person who strives for the best for herself and for the people she cares about. You have developed strength and personal power. Perhaps you have learned compassion for the women you used to make fun of, now that you have seen the phenomenon for yourself. You might want to focus on the hard-won value you've built for yourself, and that will help you let go of your pain when you're ready to see that it's not serving you.

One day very soon you will do a triage on yourself and you won't be able to find the pain anywhere. You'll wonder what you were thinking! And then maybe a little while later, you'll think gratefully and lovingly back on Mr. Butthead as you turn to kiss the loving, generous, emotionally invested, mutually-growth-oriented, Mr. Sweet Potato with whom you'll be creating a life you both love.

One little tip for you: It will be easier if you go cold-turkey on Mr. Butthead for awhile. No meetings, no phone calls. It sounds harsh, but really the band-aid theory of love is highly advisable. Plus, practicing that will give you a sense of your own power.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Angela, you are very wise and thoughtful - has anyone ever told you that ?

I have already found myself in a position to see other women in a different light when tempted to pass judgement on what they allow in their relationships. I've had to look back and see how I wasn't able to be true to the standards I always claimed to have - and how hard that is when you love someone so much and just want the same from them.

I can see now that this pain is doing me no good (I mean, it's not going to bring him back and magically make him the man I want him to be. It's just making me miserable). I am just figuring out how to let it go and what I call forgive him, so I can really find what I want in a partner. It's almost like I just want him to admit what he did and say sorry and realize just how badly I feel before I forgive him, but I suspect that's not really what forgiveness is .

As for no contact, he's pretty much taken care of that one. It's almost like I never existed. (Part of it hurting so badly is knowing he doesn't even care to talk to me when just a while ago he was declaring his love - it's the question was it ever real, all just a joke or way to pass the time?) But I can see how it is really better not to have contact. I wouldn't want to start hanging onto any thought of us getting back together (what a mistake that would be) or wondering what the contact meant...does he still love me, miss me, just using me when he needs me, etc. That's a whole other can of worms. I hope someday we can be friends though because the times when we just talked and laughed together were some of the nicest times ever.

I am really putting all my thoughts out here, and I guess got off topic of forgiveness. If anyone is still following, more thoughts on forgiveness - not just related to my particular situation - are always appreciated. I love seeing what everyone here thinks about various topics. Thanks again.

[ken nubo]

"How do you define forgiveness?"

For me, it's just ignoring the past on what happened and just see for the moment for what it is. Like I would have people who disrespected and bad mouth me in the past. I don't bother holding a grudge on them because it wouldn't do any good -- so I just treat them according to my own pricinple.

[Smokefish]

My experience with forgiveness is...

forgiving someone is more beneficial to you than it is to the person you are forgiving
forgiving someone doesn't mean condoning their actions, it is more coming to terms with who that person really is and accepting it for what it is.

I was angry (and angry is not a strong enuf term) with an ex for the abuse he inflicted on me. After much reflection, I realized that I was equally (or maybe more so) angry with myself for picking him in the first place and for putting up with it for so long. I gave a lot of myself that I didn't get back in return. I felt cheated. I wanted him to realize how hurtful he had been, I wanted him to be sorry. I never got that from him... But at some point, I realized that I chose that situation and after much reflection I understood why and what I learned from it. I realized that I gave my best to the situation and ultimately so did he, although it was not what I had anticipated. Then I was able to forgive myself and him as well. Being able to forgive him is one of the best things I have ever done for myself and it has become much easier for me to forgive because of this experience. It is definitely a process that you will have to work through, but worth the effort it takes.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Smokefish

My experience with forgiveness is...

I was angry (and angry is not a strong enuf term) with an ex for the abuse he inflicted on me. After much reflection, I realized that I was equally (or maybe more so) angry with myself for picking him in the first place and for putting up with it for so long. I gave a lot of myself that I didn't get back in return. I felt cheated. I wanted him to realize how hurtful he had been, I wanted him to be sorry. I never got that from him... But at some point, I realized that I chose that situation and after much reflection I understood why and what I learned from it. I realized that I gave my best to the situation and ultimately so did he, although it was not what I had anticipated.

You dealt with a lot of the same feelings I have right now. Particularly wanting him to realize and be sorry. I just want some kind of acknowlegment of what he put me through, but I am realizing not to count on it. I am trying to forgive him anyway. Thanks for sharing your story.

@ken nubo - You are right. Holding a grudge won't do any good. I need to just live according to what I value and stay out of other people's business (I can't control what they value, so why try?)

[OlderWiser]

A few thoughts on forgiveness for my first post, it seems...

Forgiveness is a concept I struggled with for many, many years. I won't go into details, but suffice it to say I came from an abusive, highly dysfunctional home.

For a long, long time, I would never forgive anything, EVER. I kept a record of everything, and used those things as a weapon, and also as a shield to keep people at arms' length. I never forgot, I never forgave.

Eventually, as I grew and healed (something that is still happening), I realised that a good portion of my emotional "baggage" was the fact that I had to keep a record of everything, that I never forgot and never forgave.

I had to think about it for years before I realised that forgiveness is not saying "It was okay what you did to me." It's saying "I'm sick of holding this debt, so I'm writing it off."

The metaphor I use is this: Imagine someone borrows money from you. You go to collect it and they refuse to pay you. You keep asking, they keep refusing. Eventually, maybe after a long, long time, you realise that they're never going to pay you back, so you might as well just write off the debt, balance the books, and stop chasing them for it. You forgive the debt.

I've known this for a while, but still struggled with it. I wanted to hang on to my anger, to my outrage, to my indigation, to all that stuff. I deserved it! They owed me!

Just recently, though, for various reasons I decided that I was going to start forgiving. EVERYTHING. And so I have. It's not as hard as I thought it was going to be. I just let it all go. I just say "Yeah, you were nasty and you never apologised, I'm tired of caring about it, I forgive you." Or I say "You were careless with my feelings, maybe on purpose and maybe not, but you were and you hurt me, but I'm not interested in carrying the burden of that any more, so I forgive you." Or various other things, depending on the situation.

I've become so adept at this that I'm getting to where I can just give a little shake of my head and take a couple of breaths and let it go. Gone. Forgiveness. Sometimes it's "I forgive you, let's resume our relationship," and sometimes it's "I forgive you, never darken my doorstep again," but it's still that release, and I genuinely do forgive as far as I can tell. (I don't forget, but that's another story. )

I've found that in the process of forgiveness, I am much less burdened, much less bound to the past, much less tied to people I'd rather not be tied to. I'm free of them, and whatever they think about the subject is immaterial. It's given me tremendous healing.

And I also find that in forgiving others, I am more able to forgive myself. I tend to be hard on myself, and when I'm forgiving of others, I can extend that to myself, as well.

Perhaps this is just my peculiar psychology at work, I don't know. I do know I'm far from the only person who has found power and strength and freedom in forgiveness, though.

So, that's my take on it. Hope it helps, or at least gives some food for thought.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

I just wanted to say thanks, OlderWiser. You made some really great points. I am beginning to get the idea from your post and others that forgiving doesn't mean what the other person did was okay. It's just releasing the control I let others' actions have on me. I really appreciate you sharing your story. I am re-reading a lot of these posts when I need a little help...on my off days.

Yesterday my ex called me (we are still figuring out how to get all his stuff out of the house), and I also saw him (it was kind of strange because I had told him where I was going and he showed up there). We talked a little and shared a hug and it was nice to just let that interaction happen. When a thought came into my head that I was angry at him or wanted something from him, I reminded myself that I love and release him. I can't know what he's doing now unless he chooses to tell me. I can't make him want or love me the way I expect, so I am going on without expectation. I will take each day as it comes.

Thanks to everyone here who has helped me so much. You've been inspirational, encouraging and thoughtful. I look forward to learing more.

[Benny2]

I apologize for misreading the question.


I crashed after my frist deviorced.

I turn to God.

My spouse comitted adultry big time.

She misappropriated our funds.

I search and found God.

I focused on the books of Job/Jesus

I spoke in missions.

I search for and found a good docter and tharpist.

My life was more than restored.

I remarried.

I will be married know for nine year in June.

Relationships are not easy, hurting and pain are a part of all of it.

I forgave but the pain is not completely gone.

It is much less now.

I guess it is a pain I will have to live with and celebrate the joy of living anyway.

I never allowed to prejudice my new marriage.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Thanks Benny2. I can see you went through a great deal to get to where you are today. I am sorry that the pain is still there. I know it is tough to get over these kinds of things and I hope your pain lessens every day. I still love and think fondly of my ex. Despite what he did, he was my love and that doesn't just go away. Thank you for sharing what you went through. I particularly think it's important that you said you never allowed what happened to prejudice your new marriage. That is something I can see being on the lookout for...not carrying this into my next relationship. It's wonderful that you are able to do that. I wish you the best.

[marty]

i heard it defined somewhere as "to completely let go".(which i liked!)

[witness2light]

In my work with forgiveness I've observed that pain is an indication that there is more forgiveness needed. When we respond with pain we are saying we still want something to change. Pain is a complaint, and a call for someone to change. I've found in my own self work that if I am still feeling pain I'm still making the other person responsible for how I feel, and blaming them. The reality I've experienced is that pain is my own reaction, and isn't really caused by the other person. To put it as neutrally as possible, it can be seen as an "expression of displeasure and request that somebody else do something about it." But then you are making them responsible for both your pain and the end of your pain - your happiness - and that's not a place of power or freedom. A painful reaction is subjective, and based on our own beliefs, desires and perceptions of what works to bring us experiences we prefer. I have learned that I can react with pain or not, depending on whether I believe it will help. It never really has. If you come to see emotional pain as not a sensation brought on by an experience but as an emotional reaction and statement of preference (in essence: "stop that!"), then it can be seen that it's another form of blame. Thus I've found that pain means I need to forgive more. Even a little negative feeling in the memory means forgive more.

I also believe that it is our true will and nature to love and forgive. Our society teaches us to blame, complain and do pain as if it would fix the problem, but really it just adds more negativity to the world. When things "go wrong" in a relationship of any sort, it just means some corrective action is needed. We need to define our boundaries as well as learn to give in a healthy way.

Lastly, forgiveness isn't condoning at all. In a seemingly brutal world we are taught that forgiveness is weak, and that striking back, which I feel includes the emotional negativity unforgiveness, is the solution, but it just means we got hooked into the battle, when really the only way we can "win" is by not playing the game. As we learn to resurrect our native forgiveness we disentangle from the past and from each other. Victory over negativity in life is had by not engaging in negativity. Thus, forgiveness is real power. Everyone can see that a person who is forgiving and at peace with themselves and about others has made a great attainment.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by marty

i heard it defined somewhere as "to completely let go".(which i liked!)

That's just what I aim to do. Good definition. Thank you.