The Idea of Money

[James81]

I'm posting this here instead of in the Business/Financial forums because I'm more interested in talking about the ideas, beliefs, etc. that we assign to money than I am talking about actual money, money making, or business or anything. I'd like to explore the ideas that we associate with money and their emotional impacts on us as individuals (and as a society).

Anyway....I think it's a given that the money itself (paper currency) is only really worth the paper it's printed on. Even when we attached it to the gold standard, the actual money only had the value that we assigned to it. As did gold, actually.

I'm curious to hear about the ideas/emotions that you associate with money and the impacts of those associations in your life.

[st33med]

I discovered recently that I attached with *making* money as evil. It's a ridiculous thought because I thought if I made money, I would be evil.

I don't believe that anymore.

As for money itself, I don't have any particular emotional attachment to it. Money is just to pay for things and services, not for me to cling on to.

[James81]

Originally Posted by st33med

I discovered recently that I attached with *making* money as evil. It's a ridiculous thought because I thought if I made money, I would be evil.

I don't believe that anymore.

As for money itself, I don't have any particular emotional attachment to it. Money is just to pay for things and services, not for me to cling on to.

I used to (and still kinda) have that money = evil association. I was raised under notions that money changes people, that when people win the lottery, for instance, that it ruins their life because they always wind up in the news getting in trouble after they won.

It's kind of funny, actually, because the negative emotions come when I make a big purchase, not when I RECEIVE a big sum of money. For example, for the past few years I've gotten 3000 dollars back in income taxes. Receiving that money felt good. Spending it made me feel guilty. I *had* to spend it on things that i felt were really smart purchases. One year I got LASIK with it. This past year I took 3 different vacations with it, bought an iPod and an X-box 360. I notice that when I feel like I'm getting the most value for my money, that it feels good. When I'm a little wary about what I'm spending money on, it doesn't.

For example, any time I take out a loan, I get that shackled feeling.

Does anybody else relate to these emotional responses to money?

[SatvikBeri]

I think money is really convenient. Without money, exchange of goods and services would be much harder. I even think money is convenient enough that it's worth the cost of usage, which is tax.

I also associate money with being valued by a company/customer, and it's really important to me that I feel valued/appreciated by someone I work for. Money is not the *only* way that I can feel valued, but it is a very convenient one. That's why, in many ways I care more about earning money than having money. I also gladly do work for less money if it's for a person/company that can make me feel appreciated in other ways.

[James81]

Originally Posted by SatvikBeri

I think money is really convenient. Without money, exchange of goods and services would be much harder. I even think money is convenient enough that it's worth the cost of usage, which is tax.

I also associate money with being valued by a company/customer, and it's really important to me that I feel valued/appreciated by someone I work for. Money is not the *only* way that I can feel valued, but it is a very convenient one. That's why, in many ways I care more about earning money than having money. I also gladly do work for less money if it's for a person/company that can make me feel appreciated in other ways.

It seems like you associate money mostly with convenience (since you used that word a bunch of times). That's an interesting association, I think.

[moonrambler]

I think my negative attitude about money made a huge negative impact on my financial situation, because although I didn't see the contradiction at the time, how is a person supposed to make lots of money while also attaching all sorts of negative opinions to money? I had a lot of psychological work to do to turn that around.

[Mounds]

For some reason, I can't come up with anything. I have some beliefs about money but they're mostly about how many common beliefs about money are wrong.

[James81]

Originally Posted by Mounds

For some reason, I can't come up with anything. I have some beliefs about money but they're mostly about how many common beliefs about money are wrong.

I figured you'd be all over this thread like white on rice.

[Divajules]

Originally Posted by James81

I notice that when I feel like I'm getting the most value for my money, that it feels good. When I'm a little wary about what I'm spending money on, it doesn't.

For example, any time I take out a loan, I get that shackled feeling.

Does anybody else relate to these emotional responses to money?

This really hit home for me! The association of feeling shackled when I take out a loan describes it well...I DO feel that way. And, it bothers me to have debt so I can't wait to get out from under it no matter how "worthy" or manageable the debt is (except for my house, for some reason that debt doesn't bother me in the least).

It doesn't really affect my life to have debt or not when I am able to make the payments so I don't know why I feel this way. Being in debt has never been negative in my experience yet I have a huge bias toward feeling like I owe.

I've noticed that there is a big "they can't take this away from me because it is paid for" type of mentality. I'm not sure where that comes from because I've never had anything repossessed or even been close to real financial difficulty like bankruptcy etc. Admittedly, my fear has probably kept me from going down that road. Even though I have no experience of it, I still fear it.

I love this thread....money issues are the last frontier for me and I WILL OVERCOME!!

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Mounds

For some reason, I can't come up with anything. I have some beliefs about money but they're mostly about how many common beliefs about money are wrong.

You believe you are a soldier in the war on abundance, don't you, and that there's something to be done about overabundance. I know you were *just kidding* about the former, but I don't think anyone's ever really *just kidding* -- I mean, I suspect that your most unconsciously held beliefs about money may be lurking underneath the funny things you say about it.

[Mounds]

Originally Posted by James81

I figured you'd be all over this thread like white on rice.

I'll be all over this thing like Rosie O'Donnel on a baked ham once I finish work.

[Tam9]

I think of money as means to an end.

"For there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so." Shakespeare

[Mounds]

Originally Posted by Angela

You believe you are a soldier in the war on abundance, don't you, and that there's something to be done about overabundance. I know you were *just kidding* about the former, but I don't think anyone's ever really *just kidding* -- I mean, I suspect that your most unconsciously held beliefs about money may be lurking underneath the funny things you say about it.

I'll give you this one, I think at some point we have enough money and I think everyone can achieve that point fairly easily. That's where my war on consumerism comes from. The way things are now, there never seems to be enough money for a lot of people.

[James81]

Originally Posted by Mounds

I'll give you this one, I think at some point we have enough money and I think everyone can achieve that point fairly easily. That's where my war on consumerism comes from. The way things are now, there never seems to be enough money for a lot of people.

Here's the thing about that, though.

If money really is just an idea, a culmination of ideas that we assign to it, then the approach to helping those people who don't have enough won't be through external programs. It would be through changing their ideas about money...or changing our ideas about money as a collective group.

[SatvikBeri]

Originally Posted by James81

It seems like you associate money mostly with convenience (since you used that word a bunch of times). That's an interesting association, I think.

From my point of view, using money is a choice. No one is holding a gun to your head and saying you HAVE to use money. You could try bartering or some other sort of value trading system. And I know of some people who barter for almost everything, because they're very anti-government and hate paying taxes. There's also something like the freegan movement.

So money is just one of the most convenient ways to get certain things. I think it's *much* easier to work for a few hours doing the kind of work I'm best at, and use that money to get groceries, than it would be to try to provide a grocery store with commensurate value.

I also don't really subscribe to the smaller view that money is the root of all good, though I used to.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Mounds

I'll give you this one, I think at some point we have enough money and I think everyone can achieve that point fairly easily. That's where my war on consumerism comes from. The way things are now, there never seems to be enough money for a lot of people.

Yes. It's a good place to start looking for unconsciously-held beliefs -- wherever you've got a sense that "there's something wrong here." (or, ".....over there.")

[VinceG]

Originally Posted by Mounds

I'll give you this one, I think at some point we have enough money and I think everyone can achieve that point fairly easily. That's where my war on consumerism comes from. The way things are now, there never seems to be enough money for a lot of people.

Check this website out:
http://www.earlyretirementextreme.com/

[Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi]

I think fiat currency is bogus. Mainly because I have no faith in the governing body that the value is linked to. It also makes me a little woozy to think that our entire current economic system was set up by the Nixon Shock, which was just the foamy white head of a wave of individualism to the point of excess that washed over the US in the 1980s. Zeitgeist.

But this is what I'm not comfortable with - you work your whole life, put money away in a 401k or a differentiated stock portfolio. At the end of your life all that money you socked away may or may not be worth anything at all. It definitely won't be worth what it was when you saved it. It's all dependent on what the economic situation is at the time that you retire. I'm not even mentioning social security because by the time I'm old, it won't exist.

[Firefly101]

I was afraid that money would make me boring, complacent, overweight,diabetic, alcoholic,numb, apathetic to the situation of others,prematurely aged, slow, etc. etc. I thought that, in order to be truly "awake" to life, I needed to be lean and hungry. Hahaha...yikes! There's a little negativity for ya'.

*I want to smudge my post now. Does anybody have any sage?

[Firefly101]

Originally Posted by Firefly101

I was afraid that money would make me boring, complacent, overweight,diabetic, alcoholic,numb, apathetic to the situation of others,prematurely aged, slow, etc. etc. I thought that, in order to be truly "awake" to life, I needed to be lean and hungry. Hahaha...yikes! There's a little negativity for ya'.

*I want to smudge my post now. Does anybody have any sage?

Oh, yeah, I AM alcoholic (sober). LOL.

[Mounds]

Originally Posted by James81

Here's the thing about that, though.

If money really is just an idea, a culmination of ideas that we assign to it, then the approach to helping those people who don't have enough won't be through external programs. It would be through changing their ideas about money...or changing our ideas about money as a collective group.

Beats me. I'm not gonna bother trying to change everyone's beliefs about money cause that's just a lost cause and I won't be doing anyone any favors.
My money tips are for people who are having money problems. If you're not having money problems or you're not in debt, then you probably won't get a whole lot from my posts. As a former impulse shopper and someone who's gone deep into consumer debt, I have a lot to share in this department.

-Tim

[James81]

Originally Posted by Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi

But this is what I'm not comfortable with - you work your whole life, put money away in a 401k or a differentiated stock portfolio. At the end of your life all that money you socked away may or may not be worth anything at all. It definitely won't be worth what it was when you saved it. It's all dependent on what the economic situation is at the time that you retire. I'm not even mentioning social security because by the time I'm old, it won't exist.

A while back, I redefined what retirement to me was, and this is what I came up with:

Not having to work at a job I love for the rest of my life.

That is, "not having to" means that my expenses/bills were such that a rather "bare bones" income could cover them. This does not mean cutting out frills that I enjoy, but, rather, it means not using debt as a way to get the things I want. And for those things that I *do* use debt for, to pay them off in such a way that the value of whatever I'm buying outlives the debt repayment period. (Such as buying a car...paying it off...and then driving it after it's paid off until it dies or it is close to dying....or buying a house and paying it off in way less than 30 years...such as taking a 15 year mortgage the next time I do it)

A job I love means that it's something I enjoy doing so much that I don't have some fixed age set in my future as to when I will quit and "live the good life." That is, when I turn 60 or 65, I'm not suddenly "relieved" that I can retire, but, rather I'll still be doing the same work when I am 80 because I love it so much.

That also involves keeping my physical and mental body healthy enough so that I can do the work with mental clarity and physically not be "tolled" by it. It means establishing the habits that aid my body in being healthy well into my older years. (A FANTASTIC read on the subject of living healthy in your older years: Amazon.com: Younger Next Year: A Guide to Living Like 50 Until You're 80 and Beyond (0019628134233): Chris Crowley, Henry S. Lodge: Books)

[ssandra]

Consciously... I love money. I love having it and I love spending it.

Unconsciously, (although I'm letting go of this layer by layer) my parents have shown me that:

You are happy when you don't have money

You are stressed out when you do have money

Screaming happens when you do have money

You are changing who you are (for the worse) when you do have money

The accumulation of money is the most important thing there is (above love, harmony, peace)

When you don't have money, it all doesn't matter.

when you do have money, protecting it is the most important thing and giving it away or sharing it should always come at a steep price

and especially my mom: As a woman you always should make more then a man, or at least have a good career in which you make lots and lots of money independently of any man

and especially my dad: If a woman makes more money then a man it means that the man will have less self esteem and will try to take back his manhood by other means, such as verbally putting the woman down




My own personal beliefs about money is that it is a great tool to assign value to things. I prefer to get what I think I am worth and pay what I think things are worth without looking for the best bargain etc.
If I want a new microwave, I check myself to see how much I'm willing to pay (around 1.000 pesos) when I find a microwave that does what I want for that price, I'll buy it. I won't go looking for a cheaper option.

[Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi]

Originally Posted by James81

A job I love means that it's something I enjoy doing so much that I don't have some fixed age set in my future as to when I will quit and "live the good life." That is, when I turn 60 or 65, I'm not suddenly "relieved" that I can retire, but, rather I'll still be doing the same work when I am 80 because I love it so much.

Well if the currency is completely devalued, it don't matter how much you save, son. ya ain't got nuthin'. Just pieces of paper to use for kindling.

That also involves keeping my physical and mental body healthy enough so that I can do the work with mental clarity and physically not be "tolled" by it. It means establishing the habits that aid my body in being healthy well into my older years.

Well sure, but cancer's a *****. So are strokes. A friend of mine's brother had a freak accident involving a chain saw and a stump that left him permanently disabled. Don't you remember Murphy's Law?

What I'm saying is - what is it that money represents, exactly? What can you trade your money in for? If you have a $20 and no one will exchange it for any goods or services with you, what is it worth?

Did you know that the Nixon Shock was a response to the US dollar's relative devaluation compared to other currencies? That Germany didn't feel like bolstering the ♥♥♥♥♥♥ US dollar so they just decided to bail out on the internationally agreed upon economic strategy without telling anyone?

People are all about conceptual money because they don't understand what it really is, the history of how the concept developed, or the fact that there were powerful people who had a vested interest in making this concept something that the majority of American people didn't know a damn thing about.

[James81]

Originally Posted by ssandra

and especially my mom: As a woman you always should make more then a man, or at least have a good career in which you make lots and lots of money independently of any man

and especially my dad: If a woman makes more money then a man it means that the man will have less self esteem and will try to take back his manhood by other means, such as verbally putting the woman down

Wow, talk about setting up a perfect conflict...a running in circles kind of conflict.

Originally Posted by Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi

Well if the currency is completely devalued, it don't matter how much you save, son. ya ain't got nuthin'. Just pieces of paper to use for kindling.


Well sure, but cancer's a *****. So are strokes. A friend of mine's brother had a freak accident involving a chain saw and a stump that left him permanently disabled. Don't you remember Murphy's Law?

What I'm saying is - what is it that money represents, exactly? What can you trade your money in for? If you have a $20 and no one will exchange it for any goods or services with you, what is it worth?

Did you know that the Nixon Shock was a response to the US dollar's relative devaluation compared to other currencies? That Germany didn't feel like bolstering the ♥♥♥♥♥♥ US dollar so they just decided to bail out on the internationally agreed upon economic strategy without telling anyone?

People are all about conceptual money because they don't understand what it really is, the history of how the concept developed, or the fact that there were powerful people who had a vested interest in making this concept something that the majority of American people didn't know a damn thing about.

I'm not exactly sure what this had to do with what I posted.

[LostMyMap]

I know I'm repeating myself but:

All money does is make you more of what you already are. If you are unhappy, stingy, a jerk, money helps amplify all that. If on the other hand, you are happy, kind, generous, then money can greatly enhance those qualities as well.

I've met some pretty happy rich people. I intend to be one of them.

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by James81

Wow, talk about setting up a perfect conflict...a running in circles kind of conflict.

Indeed... just like this one:

Originally Posted by ssandra

You are happy when you don't have money

The accumulation of money is the most important thing there is (above love, harmony, peace)

Oh and I just realized another one...

Having money (saving money) will keep you safe.

Spending money will make you happy! (oh... didn't realize this one before!!)


so... you can either be safe or you can be happy... but you cannot have both... oh boy, I can see where that has been frecking up my financial situation....

[Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi]

Originally Posted by James81

I'm not exactly sure what this had to do with what I posted.

wheee! well it was directly related from this end, I can tell you.

I think we're talking about two different levels of the same concept. You're talking about money as if it has inherent value. You earn X which will enable you to do Y, you keep your body healthy so you can work as long as you want.

These are all things you can't control, though. The value of your money and your health are not necessarily things that you can control. I live in FL. There are tons a retired people here who have to work into their 80s because what they thought would be enough to cover their retirement just isn't.

[AaronB]

Originally Posted by Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi

wheee! well it was directly related from this end, I can tell you.

I think we're talking about two different levels of the same concept. You're talking about money as if it has inherent value. You earn X which will enable you to do Y, you keep your body healthy so you can work as long as you want.

These are all things you can't control, though. The value of your money and your health are not necessarily things that you can control. I live in FL. There are tons a retired people here who have to work into their 80s because what they thought would be enough to cover their retirement just isn't.

So ideally how would money be? How would health be? We could see ourselves as being perfectly balanced with money and health and not as a victim to circumstances beyond our control. A lot of people on this forum do see themselves this way. They don't recognize their relationship with money to depend on random events dictated by the Government or economy, they don't recognize their health to be subject to random diseases. Money and health don't have to feel like they are subject to immediate peril.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by LostMyMap

I know I'm repeating myself but:

All money does is make you more of what you already are. If you are unhappy, stingy, a jerk, money helps amplify all that. If on the other hand, you are happy, kind, generous, then money can greatly enhance those qualities as well.

I've met some pretty happy rich people. I intend to be one of them.

I also intend to be a happy, kind and generous rich person...which I already AM

I've spent the last 15 years working through my imposed beliefs about money=evil and feared becoming corrupt and an *******. Now I no longer believe this, and think that as long as I am self-aware, I cannot become this way with lots of money.

I never liked money much, as I grew up with it, and saw the way people around me behaved and thought about others who were not rich, and I hated the way they wanted everyone to envy them because of it, when they really weren't that nice.

Money can be the root of all good, depending on the person who wields it. It buys the material things that can make us happy, though it won't make us happy in and by itself. It equals creative freedom for me, and enhances my experience here.