My son's father

[Angela]

Originally Posted by ssandra

(oh, Angela.. you'd be happy to know that I actually killed a spider today with my foot (in a shoe, but still) for someone who was a arachnophobia just a few months ago that is AMAZING!)

Oh, no!! I am an accessory to arachnicide!

[Angela]

Originally Posted by spacecadetglow

Oh okay, so you attribute that internal conflict to something having to do with your parents.

No, it has nothing to do with my parents, except that they happened to be there when I made this decision about myself. I am 100% at cause in the matter. They were just living their lives, taking their own right actions; what I decided about myself doesn't mean anything at all about them.

Like I said, I don't think I'm entirely comfortable in a reality where everything is that malleable.

Well, change happens. One may consider that change happens only or mostly to you (you're entirely or mostly at the effect of what happens), or one may consider that one has the power to effect change -- to be the cause of the results you want. Or somewhere in between, or any other way one wants to consider it. For me, I prefer the context -- the consideration -- in which I am most effective at getting the results I want. I don't think you *should* use the context I use, and I don't mind sharing that context, because I've seen it make a big, positive difference for many, many people.

Yeah. I know there are some things I'd definitely like to change about myself, but I am faithful that they will come in their own time, of their own accord, when I am ready. You may see this as passive or being at effect, but actually for me this constitutes ultimate faith in oneself. It's not as if I'm waiting for things to happen to me, necessarily, because I make no distinction between me, God, and the world's events.

I don't see it as being at effect, I see it as using a perspective of being at effect. I'm not saying that you *should* use a perspective of being at cause in your life; I'm saying that, in my experience, using a perspective of being at cause in your life is the one big factor that makes a difference in people powerfully and quickly getting the results they want.

And I agree that when things happen is when they should happen.

[Angela]

p.s.. as Ssandra will tell you, she and I were talking about this stuff for TWO YEARS before she decided to try it on for size. And I had gotten inklings about Way Beyond 100% Responsibility for years before I was ready to try it on, too -- when I was ready, it was like, kerplooey!

You're ready for change when you're ready for change, and not a moment before, and that's perfect.

[spacecadetglow]

Originally Posted by Angela

No, it has nothing to do with my parents, except that they happened to be there when I made this decision about myself. I am 100% at cause in the matter. They were just living their lives, taking their own right actions; what I decided about myself doesn't mean anything at all about them.

No, I know. That's not what I meant. I just meant that for you, these things were intertwined--feeling like you had to choose between your parents, and your internal conflict. I just don't have an event like that in my life, that I can look back to and say "Oh, that's why I have this belief." I've racked my brain for it, trust me.

I don't see it as being at effect, I see it as using a perspective of being at effect. I'm not saying that you *should* use a perspective of being at cause in your life; I'm saying that, in my experience, using a perspective of being at cause in your life is the one big factor that makes a difference in people powerfully and quickly getting the results they want.

I guess. I'm starting to feel kind of like I'm not being heard here, or rather, you're only wanting to hear me in a certain way. Notice that I said that this perspective, for me, constitutes ultimate faith in myself... and as for results? I'd say I'm doing pretty well for myself. But this conversation sort of has me feeling like I'm not doing well enough. Not your fault of course (not that you would take responsibility for that, anyway ), just wanted to share.

"I" am not the agent of all positive change in my life. Some of it, yes. Just like "I" am not the maker of my art. It makes itself. Change happens itself. My personal growth happens as naturally as dew on the petal of a flower. Sometimes I can take credit, yes, but other times I prefer to surrender to the power that is vastly more intelligent, vastly wiser, and supremely more powerful than "I" could ever be.

But all of that... lies within me. So it's really just semantics here.

[Firefly101]

Do you have support for this? It is a domestic violence situation, right? You are not responsible for his behavior. The essence of it for him is being able to control you. Period.

I recommend a book: Why Does He Do That? by Lundy Bancroft. Extremely helpful. EXTREMELY HELPFUL.

Is there a resource center for women near you? A therapist/social worker, etc?

A "discussion" with the other party about an incident of domestic violence will never, ever go well. You will try to assert yourself, defend yourself, stand up for yourself, and he will convince you that you are crazy/to blame, that you deserved it, and he will try to tear you down. There is *nothing more destabilizing than being with a man who abuses you and says he loves you.

It's great to have the support of friends, live or online, but I do think outside professional help is essential in helping you find clarity.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by spacecadetglow

I guess. I'm starting to feel kind of like I'm not being heard here, or rather, you're only wanting to hear me in a certain way.

I'm sorry I'm not hearing you the way you want to be heard. I hear you saying that you are not the agent of all positive change in your life, but you are some of it. Some of it just happens by itself, as naturally as the dew on the petal of a flower, and that you can take credit for some of the change you make happen, and other times you turn it over to a higher power -- and hat the higher power lies within you. Yes?

And that's great! As you've said, it works out well for you, and I don't think you *should* do anything other than what you're doing, or seeing things any way other than how you see them.

It's those times when things aren't working out so great - sometimes when you post here, you don't sound like you're surrendering to a higher power, or like you're willing to surrender and just allow change to happen when it's time for it to happen. Sometimes you sound like you are resisting, and thinking things should be other than how they are (envy is an example of resistance). Those are the times I'm likely to recommend being at cause -- and interestingly enough, being at cause often entails surrender.

[spacecadetglow]

Originally Posted by Angela

I'm sorry I'm not hearing you the way you want to be heard. I hear you saying that you are not the agent of all positive change in your life, but you are some of it. Some of it just happens by itself, as naturally as the dew on the petal of a flower, and that you can take credit for some of the change you make happen, and other times you turn it over to a higher power -- and hat the higher power lies within you. Yes?

And that's great! As you've said, it works out well for you, and I don't think you *should* do anything other than what you're doing, or seeing things any way other than how you see them.

It's those times when things aren't working out so great - sometimes when you post here, you don't sound like you're surrendering to a higher power, or like you're willing to surrender and just allow change to happen when it's time for it to happen. Sometimes you sound like you are resisting, and thinking things should be other than how they are (envy is an example of resistance). Those are the times I'm likely to recommend being at cause -- and interestingly enough, being at cause often entails surrender.

Thank you, that did help to clear things up.

And you make a very good point that hits home for me. I didn't realize that surrendering to the moment could be a part of being at cause. I kind of thought it meant looking for a better perspective when you don't like your current one. And that's the part that always gets me about this philosophy, to me it's always seemed like you have to resist yourself to make it work. But maybe seeking a better perspective and surrendering to the now aren't always mutually exclusive?

I kind of feel like I'm tapping into something similar to your "Free and Connected" thing here. Like I am free to choose a better perspective when I want to, but other times I have to remain connected to the now to get the lesson. The latter comes into play especially with emotion, and fully feeling your feelings. That to me is connection. I have no idea if this is what you meant by that, but I like the way I'm applying it here, because it's starting to gel together for me in a nice way.

Hah, case in point... I just started to type something out about my resistance and inability to surrender, but I just *decided* not to because it was bringing me to a negative place. So I'll leave it at that. Everything will be okay.

I try so very hard, it's bound to happen that I'll get my due.

[Angela]

That's so cool, and it's how I see what you and I have been talking about to be intimately connected with Lakshy's concern here in this thread, and that's why I haven't suggested taking it to a different thread. Lakshy, we've noticed how sometimes these wandering discussions lead to extraordinary insight, huh? If you feel it's totally off-topic, though, please let me know.

What I mean is that I think we're mirror sisters for each other, all of us who have been participating in these threads that are, as I see it, about being present to choice, freedom, and opportunity. Like, we can see something of ourselves in each other, and I'm very grateful to you ladies for the perspective!

Switching among perspectives feels great when it occurs like a choice -- a real choice, something you're choosing to do. It tends to feel wonderful even just knowing that other perspectives are available, even if you're not choosing to access them in this moment. A quote I love is "Crazy is thinking you don't have a choice," because that's what has had me fighting and feeling stuck and struggling to be free -- that is, believing that how I'm seeing the world right now is The Truth, it's REALITY, it's my only choice, and all I can do is cope with and survive this rock and this hard place that is occurring in The True Reality I'm looking at here now.

However you (by which I mean "one") see the world is perfectly valid -- and if you find yourself not being present to power, joy, or full self-expression, it doesn't mean that your worldview is wrong or bad; I'm just suggesting that being at cause in the matter of generating full power, joy and self-expression can help you be present to a whole lotta choice, opportunity, and freedom in being in love with your life, continuously.

If you don't like the perspective you're using, I don't recommend making yourself wrong about it or resisting it; I recommend noticing it, acknowledging it, and recognizing that it's not the only perspective --- whether you choose to continue using it or you choose to try something else; it's just a point of view.

[spacecadetglow]

Originally Posted by Angela

That's so cool, and it's how I see what you and I have been talking about to be intimately connected with Lakshy's concern here in this thread, and that's why I haven't suggested taking it to a different thread. Lakshy, we've noticed how sometimes these wandering discussions lead to extraordinary insight, huh? If you feel it's totally off-topic, though, please let me know.

What I mean is that I think we're mirror sisters for each other, all of us who have been participating in these threads that are, as I see it, about being present to choice, freedom, and opportunity. Like, we can see something of ourselves in each other, and I'm very grateful to you ladies for the perspective!

Switching among perspectives feels great when it occurs like a choice -- a real choice, something you're choosing to do. It tends to feel wonderful even just knowing that other perspectives are available, even if you're not choosing to access them in this moment. A quote I love is "Crazy is thinking you don't have a choice," because that's what has had me fighting and feeling stuck and struggling to be free -- that is, believing that how I'm seeing the world right now is The Truth, it's REALITY, it's my only choice, and all I can do is cope with and survive this rock and this hard place that is occurring in The True Reality I'm looking at here now.

However you (by which I mean "one") see the world is perfectly valid -- and if you find yourself not being present to power, joy, or full self-expression, it doesn't mean that your worldview is wrong or bad; I'm just suggesting that being at cause in the matter of generating full power, joy and self-expression can help you be present to a whole lotta choice, opportunity, and freedom in being in love with your life, continuously.

If you don't like the perspective you're using, I don't recommend making yourself wrong about it or resisting it; I recommend noticing it, acknowledging it, and recognizing that it's not the only perspective --- whether you choose to continue using it or you choose to try something else; it's just a point of view.

Awesome. Especially that last part. Bam, mo'fu*ckas.

That really, really came through for me. Notice it and acknowledge that it's just a perspective. For me, this combines the surrender, the self-acceptance, and the power all at once. Even if you can't see the "better perspective" immediately, you still gain something out of realizing that's all it is. Not The Truth, just a perspective.

I guess, despite all my advice to the contrary (hah), I do have a habit of believing in The Truth sometimes.

This conversation is dovetailing nicely with some of the things I'm coming to realize about the very concept of the self, which I believe I brought up earlier in this thread.

Woo! And I thought I was just sitting at home relaxing on my computer. As if I could let myself relax from this stuff, lol. MUST KNOW EVERYTHING NOW.

Lakshi is in for some reading when she gets back here, haha.

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by spacecadetglow

No, I know. That's not what I meant. I just meant that for you, these things were intertwined--feeling like you had to choose between your parents, and your internal conflict. I just don't have an event like that in my life, that I can look back to and say "Oh, that's why I have this belief." I've racked my brain for it, trust me.

I had a belief of "I am nothing".

I have no idea where that came from. I can see how it has helped me in the past though...

Being nothing means having no responsibility nor having to do anything.

I am not particular concerned with where it came from. To be honest.. I couldn't care less...

What I am concerned with is knowing what it is that has been the belief that has been running me unconsciously to bring it out in the consciousness, and the ability (if I so choose) to choose something more effective for me.

[Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi]

Originally Posted by Angela

And. Being punished actually has you feeling like something, not nothing, doesn't it? It really reminds you that you do exist, doesn't it?

Yes. This concept resonates in a big way. This makes me remember when I got very activated when someone a while back accused me of being a masochist. I was resistant to the idea and then just as quickly I suddenly decided to embrace it completely - but those are just two methods of avoidance, not really holding the light of awareness.

Originally Posted by spacecadetglow

Yeah, mine have gotten shorter and shorter over the years. I haven't had a full on panic attack in a few years, probably.

I had a panic attack right before an exam on thursday but I use the same techniques I use for controlling flashbacks.

Originally Posted by Angela

That's so cool, and it's how I see what you and I have been talking about to be intimately connected with Lakshy's concern here in this thread, and that's why I haven't suggested taking it to a different thread. Lakshy, we've noticed how sometimes these wandering discussions lead to extraordinary insight, huh? If you feel it's totally off-topic, though, please let me know.

Oh this is very good stuff. I do agree on the mirror sisters idea.

A quote I love is "Crazy is thinking you don't have a choice," because that's what has had me fighting and feeling stuck and struggling to be free -- that is, believing that how I'm seeing the world right now is The Truth, it's REALITY, it's my only choice, and all I can do is cope with and survive this rock and this hard place that is occurring in The True Reality I'm looking at here now.

This is intensely resonant for me. This is my quagmire in a nutshell.

being at cause in the matter of generating full power, joy and self-expression can help you be present to a whole lotta choice, opportunity, and freedom in being in love with your life, continuously.

I've noticed that hollering at my toddler works very poorly to achieve the goal of cooperation. I have to be calm and firm and gently redirect his attention. I'm seeing now how this is something I can choose to do to my own awareness and focus as well.

If you don't like the perspective you're using, I don't recommend making yourself wrong about it or resisting it; I recommend noticing it, acknowledging it, and recognizing that it's not the only perspective --- whether you choose to continue using it or you choose to try something else; it's just a point of view.

I like that. But I'm thinking, crazy is doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results. I'm going to change the doing instead of the expectation.

[Angela]

Wonderful! You seem like you're right at a big, lovely crossroads in your life.

[spacecadetglow]

Aren't we all.

[James81]

"Emotion, which is suffering, ceases to be suffering as soon as we form a clear and precise picture of it." --Victor Frankl

[Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi]

Bitches ain't ♥♥♥♥♥ but hos and tricks.

That's another limiting belief. I wonder if I'll ever be able to get rid of it. It's likely tied in to how I feel about myself. That old gangsta lean. I would tell myself "chicks before dicks, dude" - but that is with the assumption that I find other females to be worthy of friendship and trust, which, for the most part, I don't.

I know it may be related to my bestfriend of over a decade ditching me to have sex with a guy that I was dating at the time 12 years ago, but it runs deeper than that. A well and truly firmly established assumption that women are betrayers who are out for their own self interest, and men are users that want my physical body for their sexual release.

I see people all around me struggling to feel something, anything. To partner blindly with what they feel attracted to when what they are attracted to is just bits and pieces of themselves. I see myself struggling, like a drowning man, willing to pull anything under me if I can just get another gasp of the fake but comforting illusions that I have constructed. That's why I see it in everyone else.

I see everyone else on fire. But I am the burning man.

[James81]

Originally Posted by Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi

Bitches ain't ♥♥♥♥♥ but hos and tricks.

That's another limiting belief. I wonder if I'll ever be able to get rid of it. It's likely tied in to how I feel about myself. That old gangsta lean. I would tell myself "chicks before dicks, dude" - but that is with the assumption that I find other females to be worthy of friendship and trust, which, for the most part, I don't.

I know it may be related to my bestfriend of over a decade ditching me to have sex with a guy that I was dating at the time 12 years ago, but it runs deeper than that. A well and truly firmly established assumption that women are betrayers who are out for their own self interest, and men are users that want my physical body for their sexual release.

I see people all around me struggling to feel something, anything. To partner blindly with what they feel attracted to when what they are attracted to is just bits and pieces of themselves. I see myself struggling, like a drowning man, willing to pull anything under me if I can just get another gasp of the fake but comforting illusions that I have constructed. That's why I see it in everyone else.

I see everyone else on fire. But I am the burning man.

Oh yeah, I've hung around the types that use that "gangsta" lingo. Aside from it being annoying as ****, I can see how it's sort of a protecting illusion....something designed to distract an insecurity of some sort. Sort of the same kind of thing as white people listening to rap music. It's got a "I'm trying to be something I'm not" feel to it.

So, why is that illusion there? I mean, you said that you've had both men and women betray you. But if you were to see your role in creating these experiences (that doesn't mean "blame" btw), might you start seeing a different type of person pop up in your life? Let me explain what I mean by that in an example of my own...

I used to believe that all women were materialistic whores with no standards or not moral ethics whatsoever.

Do you wanna guess what kinds of women I found myself attracting into my life? You betcha. The types of women who would use me or take advantage of me...the types of women with loads of drama in their life...and the types of women who were sorta bitter towards men. (Feminists were my forte at one time. )

Why oh why would I attract such women when I hated them? Because that's all I focused on. I would unconsciously seek them out because I wanted to argue and change them...make the world a "better" place...all that BS.

It wasn't until I really questioned that belief that I started meeting other types of women. When I started realizing the common denominator (me), the types of people who came into my life seemed to change around me.

[Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi]

Originally Posted by James81

Oh yeah, I've hung around the types that use that "gangsta" lingo. Aside from it being annoying as ****, I can see how it's sort of a protecting illusion....something designed to distract an insecurity of some sort. Sort of the same kind of thing as white people listening to rap music. It's got a "I'm trying to be something I'm not" feel to it.

I don't agree with this assessment. Who speaks in gangsta lingo? I know there is a subset of white middle class america that views any kind of american ethnic expression as "ew, that's so ghetto". LOL. Why does the way someone speaks annoy you? It seems like you've layered some filters of your own onto this concept, especially with the "i'm trying to be something i'm not" statement.

This statement smacks of unconscious, unexamined presumptions. No me diga, no. I guess you are speaking of the rap to which you have been exposed....

I'm a classically trained pianist. I've played in competitions, with orchestras. I appreciate every genre of music that exists. I even like Burl Ives.

It wasn't until I really questioned that belief that I started meeting other types of women. When I started realizing the common denominator (me), the types of people who came into my life seemed to change around me.

I would be more inclined to agree if I had seen a similar pattern in my life, but I haven't. I can see the individuality and qualities of the individuals I've interacted with. I can perceive that what happened was not to me, just events related to people doing the best they can with the tools that they have available.

It would be easier if I could distill the individuals into 2 dimensional concepts that could more easily be grouped together.

[James81]

Originally Posted by Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi

I would be more inclined to agree if I had seen a similar pattern in my life, but I haven't. I can see the individuality and qualities of the individuals I've interacted with. I can perceive that what happened was not to me, just events related to people doing the best they can with the tools that they have available.

It would be easier if I could distill the individuals into 2 dimensional concepts that could more easily be grouped together.

That's not to say that people aren't multi-dimensional. But, rather, seeing a pattern in the type of experience you're getting from people.

[Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi]

Originally Posted by James81

That's not to say that people aren't multi-dimensional. But, rather, seeing a pattern in the type of experience you're getting from people.

It's not what I'm getting from other people, though. It's what I do myself.

This is probably two sides of the same coin. I don't see people are interacting with me in any way other than on the terms that I bring to the interaction, subjectively.

So the seeking of the answer in anything outside of myself is a moot point. Nothing out there actually exists according to my perception. My perception exists entirely inside of my mind.

[James81]

Originally Posted by Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi

It's not what I'm getting from other people, though. It's what I do myself.

This is probably two sides of the same coin. I don't see people are interacting with me in any way other than on the terms that I bring to the interaction, subjectively.

So the seeking of the answer in anything outside of myself is a moot point. Nothing out there actually exists according to my perception. My perception exists entirely inside of my mind.

Well, I'm glad that you've realized that on your own.

My interpretation of your posts, though, is that you take personal responsibility to the OTHER extreme than people usually do. That is, most people seem to think of their experience as living at effect of external circumstances and never really see their role in creating it.

You, on the other hand, seem to take it to the other end of that spectrum...where you seem to overtly blame yourself to the point of self-masochism, using religion as your armor and justification.

I think both extremes are in place for protection. And neither one of them really allow for any sort of effectual change. I think the "sweet spot" in the middle will involve the moments in which you really take a look at the things that cause deep emotional reactions within you, and recognize the ideas that you've created about yourself in response to those reactions.

[Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi]

Originally Posted by James81

You, on the other hand, seem to take it to the other end of that spectrum...where you seem to overtly blame yourself to the point of self-masochism, using religion as your armor and justification.

This does not resonate with me. I'm not religious. I have a relationship with the source, yeah, but the trappings of religion are only valuable to me in terms of philosophical examinations of thought, and as the only real vocabulary approaching descriptions of spirituality. I also appreciate the psychological thresholds illustrated in ritual.

I don't see it as blame. I see it as responsibility. Who else is responsible and accountable for my experience of reality? Only me.

I think the "sweet spot" in the middle will involve the moments in which you really take a look at the things that cause deep emotional reactions within you, and recognize the ideas that you've created about yourself in response to those reactions.

Clearly, I am and have already been going through the process of identifying emotional reactions for a while. I've been in therapy for 12 years, dude, that's what therapy is all about (although there is this common misconception that therapy is about rehashing the past, none of my therapists used this tack. Everything was based in what I experienced in the Now as related to preconceived identity-based notions).

I don't see the relation between laying of blame and tracing emotional reactions. These are two separate concepts. Maybe I missed something reading your response.

[rei]

Originally Posted by Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi

Bitches ain't ♥♥♥♥♥ but hos and tricks.

That's another limiting belief. I wonder if I'll ever be able to get rid of it. It's likely tied in to how I feel about myself. That old gangsta lean. I would tell myself "chicks before dicks, dude" - but that is with the assumption that I find other females to be worthy of friendship and trust, which, for the most part, I don't.

I know it may be related to my bestfriend of over a decade ditching me to have sex with a guy that I was dating at the time 12 years ago, but it runs deeper than that. A well and truly firmly established assumption that women are betrayers who are out for their own self interest, and men are users that want my physical body for their sexual release.

I see people all around me struggling to feel something, anything. To partner blindly with what they feel attracted to when what they are attracted to is just bits and pieces of themselves. I see myself struggling, like a drowning man, willing to pull anything under me if I can just get another gasp of the fake but comforting illusions that I have constructed. That's why I see it in everyone else.

I see everyone else on fire. But I am the burning man.

Do you hate your mother, partly because you felt some measure of hate from her and are simply reciprocating? Do you feel like you came in different, so have been building a life to display that flashing sense of difference? Are you acting out black sheep tapes, with the unconscious idea of - well, if I was unwanted and am cast to the outside, by golly I will play that role fantastically well... ?

Or did you feel the burden of pressure and expectation hoisted upon you by your parents, and are choosing to build a life outside those expectations as often as you can because at least then you would not be failing to live up to them since you were not trying to...

Oh, and when are you going to drop the story about being on a path of suffering huh? I guess you do realize that has become a layer of your self-concept. I suppose, if that's so, then you also know how it can shape your life experience.

[Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi]

Originally Posted by rei

Do you hate your mother, partly because you felt some measure of hate from her and are simply reciprocating? Do you feel like you came in different, so have been building a life to display that flashing sense of difference? Are you acting out black sheep tapes, with the unconscious idea of - well, if I was unwanted and am cast to the outside, by golly I will play that role fantastically well... ?

Or did you feel the burden of pressure and expectation hoisted upon you by your parents, and are choosing to build a life outside those expectations as often as you can because at least then you would not be failing to live up to them since you were not trying to...

Both of these resonate with me. I think because my parents took great pains to repress the reluctance to have yet another child. My older sisters were somewhat of a trial on my parents, and while feeling unwanted, I also felt enormous pressure to "honor the family name."

It's an interesting polarity that you just uncovered for me...this will be a new project. Thanks, Rei!

Oh, and when are you going to drop the story about being on a path of suffering huh? I guess you do realize that has become a layer of your self-concept. I suppose, if that's so, then you also know how it can shape your life experience.

I think from an early age I was under the impression that all life is suffering. My parents had very heavy lives. My mom was born in a war torn third world country to a drunken, abusive father and a mother that had to keep everything together, and she STILL fights everyone. My Dad was a 3 war veteran whose father had died of mustard gas poisoning in a VA hospital (it took my grandfather 7 years to die slowly while his lungs were liquefied from the mustard gas).

It's almost like the script was activated in my epigenome. Everyone suffers, is suffering. I can't even comprehend of a world where this is not true. Even in joy there is suffering, because you know that it will end.

[James81]

Originally Posted by Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi

This does not resonate with me.

I didn't expect it to, really. You've said on more than one occasion that suffering seems to be an essential part of your life in some fashion, for some idealistic reason.

And by religion I meant more along the lines of the archetype of religion, and not being religious.

Originally Posted by Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi

I don't see the relation between laying of blame and tracing emotional reactions. These are two separate concepts. Maybe I missed something reading your response.

You seem to believe that it's your lot in life to suffer. And who could blame you for that, given all the crap you've been through?

If you were to imagine a shadow version of yourself that didn't go through all that abuse, what would your life look like? Would you still believe that suffering is the way to "salvation" (of sorts...not like literal salvation)...or redemption?

It's interesting to me because I just finished reading a portion of a book (Victor Frankl's "A Man's Search for Meaning") where he talks about how the people in the concentration camps were freed at the end of the war and they had to relearn how to imagine life without the suffering and the drudgery. That they exited those camps in a "numb" state, and that emotion at their former lives seemed void and empty for a while.

That's why I posted that quote upthread. When you are conditioned to misery and suffering being reality, it's easy to take on the notion that if you create it for yourself, you have power over it.

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi

So the seeking of the answer in anything outside of myself is a moot point. Nothing out there actually exists according to my perception. My perception exists entirely inside of my mind.

So, what are you doing to continue to attract unwanted experiences and unwanted emotions in your life?

Oh and as a side note; my entire overhaul started about 9 months ago (how appropriate ) with a reading from Rosine.

She does soul realignment stuff. I'm not sure if I believe everything she believes in, but I cannot argue with the results.

After my soul realignment I felt true JOY for the first time ever in my life that didn't disappear within seconds or minutes. I was truly happy for days and weeks at the time. Even when unhappy things happened.

Only from that place could I accept Angela's teachings and learnings about being 110% responsible, without making everything about me.
Only from knowing that JOY I was strong enough to not fall apart when trying to discover my Identity Level Limiting Belief (aka Gremlin).

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi

Even in joy there is suffering, because you know that it will end.

What if you take another perspective?

"Joy is amazing because it gives you a glimpse of what is possible"

Joy is wonderful because you know you can get it back at any time you want if you choose so"

Joy is a blessing because it relieves us from suffering, even if it is only temporary"

And I could go on and on. You choose to suffer because of the perspective that you choose to take on.

Which is ok, if that is what you want to. I can just imagine that life would be a whole lot nicer and feel better if you could eliminate at least some of that suffering....

[Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi]

Originally Posted by James81

And by religion I meant more along the lines of the archetype of religion, and not being religious.

I'm still not clear what you mean, then. I'm familiar with Jungian archetypes, but not one of religion.

I was not raised with one religion - my mother was buddhist, my father was native american/baptist and then they decided to go with Catholic, but I was still raised with the concepts of ancestor worship, animism, and buddhist philosophy.

So I am interested to understand what you mean by archetype of religion, and how you feel it influences what you see as how I define myself.

You seem to believe that it's your lot in life to suffer. And who could blame you for that, given all the crap you've been through?

I don't think it's my lot in life. I think life is suffering. As long as I continue to cling to that which is constantly in flux, by it's nature, I will suffer. Dukkha is a better word. Not suffering as in pain. Suffering as in - discomfort? missing the point? It's hard to translate.

If you were to imagine a shadow version of yourself that didn't go through all that abuse, what would your life look like? Would you still believe that suffering is the way to "salvation" (of sorts...not like literal salvation)...or redemption?

This person would also approach life from behind the layers of their experience and assumptions. I don't know what they would think.

It's interesting to me because I just finished reading a portion of a book (Victor Frankl's "A Man's Search for Meaning")

Haha, I've read that book about 10 times since I was in high school.

But it's not misery. It's just life. There is good, and bad, and they are both equally valid, and the assignation of value judgment is what is limiting, not the event in and of itself.

What I always felt when reading Frankl and his logotherapeutic techniques was that the event itself holds no power, but the significance that we assign does.

So again, the key lies within the individual's experience, not outside of themselves.

[Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi]

Originally Posted by ssandra

And I could go on and on. You choose to suffer because of the perspective that you choose to take on.

Which is ok, if that is what you want to. I can just imagine that life would be a whole lot nicer and feel better if you could eliminate at least some of that suffering....

It's not the joy, it's wanting the joy to continue that causes suffering. Believing that this "should be" a default state, or that there is anything at all "good" or "bad".

Everything just is. It is is is is. Tatata, as the Buddha said. The suchness of everything.

[James81]

Originally Posted by Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi

I'm still not clear what you mean, then. I'm familiar with Jungian archetypes, but not one of religion.

I was not raised with one religion - my mother was buddhist, my father was native american/baptist and then they decided to go with Catholic, but I was still raised with the concepts of ancestor worship, animism, and buddhist philosophy.

So I am interested to understand what you mean by archetype of religion, and how you feel it influences what you see as how I define myself.

I wrote that sloppily. I meant "religious archetypes." That is, you seem to identify with the archetypes within religion, not that you aspire to be "religious."

Originally Posted by Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi

So again, the key lies within the individual's experience, not outside of themselves.

We are in agreement. (I'm not sure if you're seeing that or not.)

I'm suggesting that you're using your individual experience as a way to protect yourself, not as a way to examine yourself.

(Bear in mind that *all* I have to go on are your posts here. I have no idea what you've done in your 12 years of therapy or the types of things you think about outside of what you post here. All I know is that your posts here suggest a push/pull kind of self-examination mixed with self-destruction.)

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi

It's not the joy, it's wanting the joy to continue that causes suffering. Believing that this "should be" a default state, or that there is anything at all "good" or "bad".

Everything just is. It is is is is. Tatata, as the Buddha said. The suchness of everything.

If it is believing that this "should be" a default state.. that is a belief that you can change.

Why not change it into "Joy is an experience"

And enjoy it while it lasts?

I guess what I am getting at here is... why all the suffering? Why do you want to suffer, even when you are feeling joy? Why not just enjoy it while it lasts? Even if it is just 3 seconds when you first step outside, and feel the sun in your face... Just enjoy the moment!

Originally Posted by Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi

So again, the key lies within the individual's experience, not outside of themselves.

I kindly disagree with (both of) you here.

They key lies within the PERCEPTION of the individual's experience, not outside of themselves.

They key being the experience, is still outside themselves.

One example; A cousin canceled an event several times in a row, while leaving her child with me (instead of all of us going out for dinner as we agreed upon).

My perception of the experience? "she is doing the best she can with the tools she has and doesn't know how to get help, except by using people. I feel sorry for her, but glad that I can willingly help her and the little child"

My husbands perception: "she's a selfish ***** and just using you to get what she wants. She's a bad person".

The experience stays the same. The perception is different.

I am not altering reality and thinking "oh it is all just a coincidence, all is good, happy, joy and rainbows all around". But my perception allows me to see the good side of the situation, instead of the bad.

And therefor when she cancels, I feel like it was expected, but not with any negative emotion tied to it.
My husband gets angry all over again.


Perception is key