A possible solution to overcoming fear?

[nvictor]

I've been using my subconscious to overcome fear.

Many people would think for 10 seconds before doing something. But 10 seconds can quickly become 10 minutes. Sometimes, it's just a matter of 1/10 of a second. Plus our subconscious mind is faster than our conscious mind. Our conscious mind is the creator of fear. Our subconscious doesn't know fear. At the first thought, which I believe coming from subconscious, I act.

These are some situations.

I couldn't talk in class because english is not my native language. Now I just raise my hand. All faces turn in my direction , the teacher goes "YES?" with a smile, this makes me feel confident and fear. This is actually a powerful mix.

I also use my subconscious in the bus. I've noticed that most students mind their own business because they fear, so I've decided to mind their business and make them "mind my business". The bus is a good example. Most students would never sit next to another student they don't know, if there are more sits of course. So I always sit next to someone, say "What's up?", or "Do you have an exam?" if s/he is actually studying...

I still feel fear when doing all this but I do it anyway. However, my philosophy classes have taught me that our subconscious is our uncivilized part and our conscious is quite civilized [I think it was something related to Freud and his theories about sex; chapters you don't want to forget for a long time ].

This is the only difficulty I've encountered is situations like when beautiful girls walk around and I.... or when my roommate is making too much noise talking in his cell phone and I want to stick the phone is his mouth in order to get peace.

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[Mark Lapierre]

It's fantastic to hear that you're now asking questions in lectures!

So basically you overcome fear by acting before your conscious mind allows that fear to paralyse you? Rather simple in theory, but as you pointed out, not always so simple in practice. It also requires that you trust your subconscious to produce thoughts which are safe to act on.

We have fear for a reason, to stop us from doing something which will harm us. But I assume you're only talking about immediately doing things which you have no rational reason to fear, and not, for example, swerving across three lanes of high-speed traffic just to see if you survive (my brain comes up with some scary ideas sometimes...)

The rest of this reply will discuss some academic disagreements with a few of the things you said. I don't intend them to detract from the message of your post.

I don't believe that the conscious mind is the creator of fear; fear is an emotion, not a thought. The conscious mind deals with thoughts and images. I also don't believe the subconscious mind doesn't know fear; I believe fear, as with all other emotions, resides in the subconscious mind.

Why else would it be difficult to do these things we fear? If the subconscious mind didn't know fear, and it is faster than the conscious mind, then we should be able to do anything instinctive without fear. And yet it's that instinctive fear which kept our ancestors alive long enough to ensure we'd be here today.

Though I also guess that by "Our conscious mind is the creator of fear" you were referring to the way we tend to worry about certain things we think might happen, like rejection, and thereby invoke fear. However I do believe that even though the conscious mind might ultimately be responsible, the emotion itself resides in the subconscious mind.

[Liara Covert]

I agree that its a great feeling to have the sense you overcome a fear. Standing up to ask questions can build your confidence in other situations. I find one effective way to deal with fear is to understand the root causes. As you learn you may be creating an illusion, convincing yourself to be scared simply because you imagine the worst may happen if you act, then it gets easier to rise above it.

This links offer some intriguing ideas about the origins of fears and phobias:
Origin of Fear

Eckhart Tolle, author of "The Power of Now" also reflects on fear here:
The Origin of Fear - Eckhart Tolle - HealthWorld Online

[Andy]

Originally Posted by Mark Lapierre

We have fear for a reason, to stop us from doing something which will harm us. But I assume you're only talking about immediately doing things which you have no rational reason to fear, and not, for example, swerving across three lanes of high-speed traffic just to see if you survive (my brain comes up with some scary ideas sometimes...)

I have a bit of trouble seeing how there are rational reasons to fear something.

Example: take someone nearby a cliff. If they have no fears associated with the cliff, does that mean they'll carelessly walk to the edge, and jump off? They could simply decide, "Okay, there's a cliff here, however since I'd rather not injure myself, I'll take the necessary precautions not to fall over the edge." Fear doesn't have to be involved in this thought process, yet they're still able to protect themselves, using reason. So while I agree fear is more of a failsafe for preventing harm to oneself, the protective effects can be accomplished just as well by using our intelligence, not to mention that it also allows more conscious control of the situation which fear often "overrides."

[Lychee]

What if your subconscious is wrong?

[Mark Lapierre]

Originally Posted by Andy

I have a bit of trouble seeing how there are rational reasons to fear something.

Example: take someone nearby a cliff. If they have no fears associated with the cliff, does that mean they'll carelessly walk to the edge, and jump off? They could simply decide, "Okay, there's a cliff here, however since I'd rather not injure myself, I'll take the necessary precautions not to fall over the edge." Fear doesn't have to be involved in this thought process, yet they're still able to protect themselves, using reason. So while I agree fear is more of a failsafe for preventing harm to oneself, the protective effects can be accomplished just as well by using our intelligence, not to mention that it also allows more conscious control of the situation which fear often "overrides."

Well, fear evolved prior to intellect. So yes, fear doesn't have to be involved anymore, but it was initially. Hence there are situations in which fear once played the part that our intellect can now perform better.

However 'rational fears' are fears regarding situations which, if the outcome we feared actually came to pass, it could truly harm us. The fear of falling off a cliff would be rational, because you would really get hurt, there's no way to avoid harm once you fall helplessly. The harm is certain hence the fear is reasonable. But the fear of rejection is irrational because rejection need not cause pain, only our irrational reaction to rejection causes pain. The pain is uncertain, the harm is arguable, the fear is unreasonable. It can be rationalised but it's not rational.

[Andy]

Originally Posted by Mark Lapierre

Well, fear evolved prior to intellect. So yes, fear doesn't have to be involved anymore, but it was initially. Hence there are situations in which fear once played the part that our intellect can now perform better.

However 'rational fears' are fears regarding situations which, if the outcome we feared actually came to pass, it could truly harm us. The fear of falling off a cliff would be rational, because you would really get hurt, there's no way to avoid harm once you fall helplessly. The harm is certain hence the fear is reasonable. But the fear of rejection is irrational because rejection need not cause pain, only our irrational reaction to rejection causes pain. The pain is uncertain, the harm is arguable, the fear is unreasonable. It can be rationalised but it's not rational.

Ah, ok. So it's simply rational if it can be reasoned out to be useful, I see now, thanks.

[nvictor]

Mark,
I really like each time you reply to my posts, you always give me great insight. Ok. So fear evolved as emotion prior to intellect? Do you mean that fear came by itself [and keeps evolving?]? Didn't our ancestors actually experiment things before judging them as dangerous?

Which one of a caveman or a person from our time [pardon the expression] placed in the jungle will experiment most fears?


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[Mark Lapierre]

Thanks Victor. But remember, I'm just another guy, so even if what I say seems insightful, don't accept it as truth before thinking it through yourself.

So I say fear evolved before intellect because a) I believe we evolved from 'simpler' primates and b) while they do display some intellect, observing their actions and reactions shows that they're ruled most often by instincts, such as "fight, flight or freeze", which is fear. So I think it's reasonable to believe that because those primates display more instinct than intellect, we also once had more instinct than intellect. And we still do, though we constantly tell ourselves otherwise.

And yes, I do believe fear, and other emotions and instincts, do keep evolving. Our fears once served the purpose of protecting us from real harm, but now, where harm is less immediate, our fears are often imagined, yet we have the same instinctive reactions to those fears. It's a gradual change in response to our changing environment.

As for whether our ancestors experienced (that's what you meant, right?) things before judging them as dangerous, I don't know. But from what I've heard and read and reasoned, if our ancestors rushed into any dangerous situation without fear, then they'd probably die. And even if they did possess enough intellect to assess how dangerous a certain situation was before moving forward, they'd have to have some reason for doing so first. So either they observed someone else get hurt and learned fear (in which case they already possessed fear, but learned to apply it to a new situation), or they already possessed enough fear of everything unknown.

Your last question is a good one. I imagine a caveman would be full of fear, but if he were used to a jungle environment he wouldn't fear it that much because he's proven to himself that he can survive its dangers.

But most people from our time wouldn't be familiar with a jungle environment, so they'd be full of fear too. But that's not a fair comparison.

If both caveman and average modern human are unfamiliar with jungles, then I'd guess both would experience the same degree of fear. But a caveman would probably adjust to the environment faster, and therefore become less fearful faster than the human who'd be used to all the comforts we take for granted.

[nvictor]

Originally Posted by Mark Lapierre

... But a caveman would probably adjust to the environment faster, and therefore become less fearful faster than the human who'd be used to all the comforts we take for granted.

Mark,

why?

I also suppose that the caveman would die first because of all the daring things he will be doing since his mind is not developed. An average modern human would live longer, because he experiement more fear.

Is fear an element for surviving? (yes?...)


Liara,

I read your suggested articles. I find them insightful. I really appreciate the link between fear and thinking in the future. I can even use it to prove Mark's point. Since the caveman has not an enough developed mind, he can't imagine as much bad things to happen as we, modern human do [war, global warming, weapon of mass destruction, society's laws, etc...]. that's why he feel less fear

Your second article states that emotion is a body reaction to an event in our mind. This can prove that intellect and fear are linked. [Mark?]


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I'm getting all the help that I need from this forum right now

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[illusions]

Interesting thread! I wanted to share something I've only recently discovered about fear....

I used to have quite a lot of fears - the usual ones a lot of people have about crime; traffic accidents; making a fool of myself; being conned or taken advantage of; making mistakes; getting into awkward situations.. and so on.
Then, a couple of weeks ago I realised that, since I create my own life, I choose to only create and attract situations and people that make me feel good and that are good for me! When I feel fear or worry now, I remind myself of this.

And it's like magic!! I feel no fear at all because I know that the only thing I would have to fear, would be something I feel fearful of. It becomes a circle: if I don't fear anything, I'm not creating or attracting anything to fear, therefore, there is no reason to fear. lol

I can't tell you how freeing this is! And there have been situations in the last couple of weeks where I've been worried about something: running out of petrol on the motorway; not being able to pull off a particular job; telling someone something they don't want to hear; major clash of priorities and double bookings; running late for an important meeting.... and each time I felt the worry, I said to myself, "It's okay - there's no need to worry because I only create and attract situations and people into my life that make me feel good and that are good for me." ... and each time, it turned out perfectly - sometimes in ways I would never have thought of! Also, I remind myself that even if it appears to be a "bad" situation or person, I know it will turn out to be "good" - it has to, because that's all I'm creating/attracting

Hope this helps.
Love and light xxx

[Mark Lapierre]

Originally Posted by nvictor

why?

I also suppose that the caveman would die first because of all the daring things he will be doing since his mind is not developed. An average modern human would live longer, because he experiement more fear.

I'd expect a caveman to adjust to the jungle environment faster because he is used to outdoor, dangerous, untamed environments. Most of us have never been in environment more dangerous than a well worn path through a national park.

I don't believe a caveman's under-developed mind would make him do daring things. I believe his fear would make him cautious.

Originally Posted by nvictor

Is fear an element for surviving? (yes?...)

I think so, yes. I think fear is the label we apply to the emotion we experience when we're faced with something that could hurt us. If we didn't evolve that emotional response, then we could have been killed by the thing we should have feared.

Originally Posted by nvictor

Your second article states that emotion is a body reaction to an event in our mind. This can prove that intellect and fear are linked. [Mark?]

I found this essay which says a lot of interesting things about emotion. I haven't read all of it yet, but here's a few noteworthy points:

Our natural way of thinking about these standard emotions is that the mental perception of some fact excites the mental affection called the emotion, and that this latter state of mind gives rise to the bodily expression. My thesis on the contrary is that the bodily changes follow directly the PERCEPTION of the exciting fact, and that our feeling of the same changes as they occur IS the emotion. Common sense says, we lose our fortune, are sorry and weep; we meet a bear, are frightened and run; we are insulted by a rival, are angry and strike. The hypothesis here to be defended says that this order of sequence is incorrect, that the one mental state is not immediately induced by the other, that the bodily manifestations must first be interposed between, and that the more rational statement is that we feel sorry because we cry, angry because we strike, afraid because we tremble, and not that we cry, strike, or tremble, because we are sorry, angry, or fearful, as the case may be. Without the bodily states following on the perception, the latter would be purely cognitive in form, pale, colourless, destitute of emotional warmth. We might then see the bear, and judge it best to run, receive the insult and deem it right to strike, but we could not actually feel afraid or angry.

This supports the suggestion that emotions don't just arise from the conscious mind, but are the physiological responses to certain stimulus, and that stimulus is our perception of a certain event, and finally, that stimulus may be external (i.e. sensory perception), or internal (so yes, intellect and fear are linked):

"Stage-fright" is only the extreme degree of that wholly irrational personal self-consciousness which every one gets in some measure, as soon as he feels the eyes of a number of strangers fixed upon him, even though he be inwardly convinced that their feeling towards him is of no practical account. This being so, it is not surprising that the additional persuasion that my fellow-man's attitude means either well or ill for me, should awaken stronger emotions still. In primitive societies "Well" may mean handing me a piece of beef, and "Ill" may mean aiming a blow at my skull. In our "cultured age," "Ill" may mean cutting me in the street, and "Well," giving me an honorary degree. What the action itself may be is quite insignificant, so long as I can perceive in it intent or animus. That is the emotion-arousing perception; and may give rise to as strong bodily convulsions in me, a civilised man experiencing the treatment of an artificial society, as in any savage prisoner of war, learning whether his captors are about to eat him or to make him a member of their tribe.

...the nervous system of every living thing is but a bundle of predispositions to react in particular ways upon the contact of particular features of the environment.

So the important thing to note is that regardless of the stimulus, the stimulus occurs first, then the nervous system's reaction, then the conscious mind's identification of the feeling.

So when we experience fear, our conscious identification, and therefore our ability to consciously override that fear, comes last. To truly be free of fear you'd need to either remove all stimulus that creates fear (which it sounds as if you're doing, illusions), or remove all neurological associations between stimulus and the fear response (which NPL or EFT or similar practices can help do).

Or, as you said Victor, allow ourselves to feel the fear, but don't let it stop us from moving forward.