Can you beat your fears and become a master?

[ellie]

Ok, I have one major problem with my personality and that is I never have the strength to stand-up to people that overpower me.

When I meet people that I think are superior to me, especially people in high authority (especially in business), or with strong, bullying personalities. They always manage to step all over me, and make me feel really small.

I never have the guts to tell them really what I think, or give them a blasting and I know for a fact this creates low self esteem. I always just give them a short yes, no answer and never really stand-up myself.

I feel If I conquer this fear I will become a much stronger person. Do you think this is something I can conquer. Has anyone else faced a fear like this head on, if so has it made feel better within yourself?

Let me explain a typical type of scenario - this is long!!! Sorry I don't know how else to clearly explain it.

So the otherday I went for a job interview. I didn't like the owner who interviewed me, he was cockey and I also knew he was the kind of guy that would never be "really" fair and would always try and milk his employees for as much as he could, but still make out that he was good guy. Still I continued on with job application. ps -I'm all very new to this going with you gut and not settling for second best.

Anyway, the employer was upfront with me about pay, hours, job description. I mean he kept saying "let me be up front, becasue that's the type of guy I am" (but lets face no one really ever is a 100% upfront) He said there would be a lot of overtime work/weekend/working from home, especially towards the end of the month, which I did clearly understood.

So anyway he wanted me to come in a few days later for an hour to see what the job was about and talk to the guy who I would be taking over from.

So I went and I really got along with the guy who was leaving and he was even more realistic/honest about the job with me and told me the hours were full-on (and the boss had no clue about the real hours he did - of course because the boss didn't want to know) and that he had not had any holidays since 2002 (apart from one week holidays over christmas each year) and even worked through all public holidays. He also made it a bit more clear about the job description and it was going to be less design orientated for me.

So that was a bit concerning, but the employee did mention he got payed overtime and he said to me "Oh you will get overtime payments" and basically sounded like it would not be worth it if you didn't get overtime but then he said, "well you should, unless for some reason it's not going to be in your contract - but you would want overtime payments".

Anyway, after that I went to meet with another manager and he talked about overtime and that there would be a lot of overtime, but of course employees are compensated (well that's what I thought I heard him say, but maybe I misunderstood what he said).

So I left the place and they said they would come to a decison in a hour and ring me.

Driving back home I knew that they would offer me the job and but for some unsubconcious reason I just assumed that I would get overtime payments - even though overtime payments were never mentioned in my first interview.

Anyway, I got home half an hour later and they had phoned and offered me the job. I accepted on the spot which was silly because that meant I didn't have time to really absorb all the pros and cons about the job and to figure out that he may of infact tried to factor overtime money into my salary.

But it did click eventually and I got this sick feeling in my stomach, were I cottoned on that he would not pay me overtime.

So the next day I emailed him back, saying I justed wanted to clear up things with overtime payments and speaking to his employee yesterday I was under the impression that I would be getting overtime.

He wrote back, with some crappy excuse that he doesn't offer that to his new employees because there is too much paperwork and that employees tax would be higher. After that I was thinking yeah whatever, what a load of bull because you're employee has told me he gets overtime payments (so he obviously could do the paperwork for him).

After that I knew he was full of it and I didn't want to work for someone like that. Plus there were a few other factors like the job being too technical and I would of been lumped with a lot of work that I would have to learn about which really would of required me to do even more overtime.

So I knew I had to reject the job, but of course I knew he would throw it back in my face that he was upfront with me about overtime and pay.

Anyway, I phoned and yes I was very nervous. So I said "J I've now decided not to take the job" and he was like why not, and I started to try and explain, "well just from yesterday's discussion I was under the impression that I would get over...." he interupted me in my tracks ",E I was up front with you, I was very clear about pay and overtime and even said there would be a pay rise in a few months, but if you're not happy with that then fine".

By this stage I was just feeling ill and managed yet again to feel like the bad guy. I didn't want to explain to him that he's employee was even more honest with hours and that he assumed I was going to get overtime too. I just didn't want to get the employee in too much trouble, because I'm sure he would be already in trouble for divulging to me that he recieved overtime payments. So how did I reply, with just a "yep no, I wont take the job and thanks".

Ok wow so, that was really long winded wasn't it - lol

But I guess what I'm trying to show, is I really didn't stick up for myself. I let him interrupt me and I let him be annoyed with me and I left with a couple word sentence and I always do this. I let someone who does not deserve to spoken to nicely walk all over me.

Yes I did make some error judgements, but so did he and I wish I could of pointed them out, in a clear and confident manner.

So please tell me there is hope for me, that I can start standing up for myself. What would of you done in my situation?

[DarkSociologist]

Sounds like you would not want to work there anyways. Being in management school, the teachers stress the importance in finding the right job and hiring the right people. You're going to want to find a job with the right "fit" or you will be miserable the entire time there.

About not standing up to your fears, let me tell you a story. When I was younger, I loved to play on the bars. There was this one trick that I really wanted to learn, where You sit on top of a horizontal bar and swing backwards with only your legs holding on.

This trick was very scary, since there was a potential to break my neck if I messed up. To try to protect myself I would try falling backwards with my hands near the bar, incase I fell. This only caused problem because I would either instantly grab onto the bar or I would be too afraid to do anything.

After trying to muster up the courage to do this trick, I finally found the secret. The secret was to first raise my hands high into the air and to just go for it. Fully facing my fears was actually the safest way to go because the centripital motion prevented my hands from grabbing the bar and the extension of my hands increased the pendulum effect, making me more likely to stay on the bar as I swung.

I believe you cannot master your fear of standing up to people that you think are more dominant. By accepting that they are more dominant than you, you have already given up. The definition of someone being more dominant than you is that you defer to them.

What you can do is master your belief that people are more dominant than you. You must face them and believe that they cannot harm you. You must believe that they are not more dominant than you. You are the master of your destiny, so who are they to stop you?

[Gary]

Perhaps there are more options here.

Can you recognize the lack of integrity in people without having to point it out to them?

Can you be aware of your need to "stand up for yourself" as a need to project a false self image.

Can you recognize this projected false image of being right is just a defense against an internal "not good enough" image.

Can you stand with awareness in the observation of their falseness, and your own two versions of your self and BE STILLl?

When you can you have a chance to not be afraid that someone will push you into the inferior false image you carry.

When you can be still in the midst of these illusions you don't have to push back, you just walk away. There is no need to fight for your integrity amongst people who have no idea what that is.

When you master this you naturally take on a humility. Humility doesn't mean meek and timid. It is a quiet strength that wastes no energy defending and standing up for it self. It has no need to defend a false image. When you don't waste your energy on these things you will find another kind of strength.

There are many options that don't involve cowering in fear, or pushing back.

When you have the awareness to see those you will be on your way to a different kind of mastery.

And by the way, it is possible.

[ellie]

Originally Posted by Gary

Perhaps there are more options here.

Can you recognize the lack of integrity in people without having to point it out to them?

Can you be aware of your need to "stand up for yourself" as a need to project a false self image.

Can you recognize this projected false image of being right is just a defense against an internal "not good enough" image.

Can you stand with awareness in the observation of their falseness, and your own two versions of your self and BE STILLl?

When you can you have a chance to not be afraid that someone will push you into the inferior false image you carry.

When you can be still in the midst of these illusions you don't have to push back, you just walk away. There is no need to fight for your integrity amongst people who have no idea what that is.

When you master this you naturally take on a humility. Humility doesn't mean meek and timid. It is a quiet strength that wastes no energy defending and standing up for it self. It has no need to defend a false image. When you don't waste your energy on these things you will find another kind of strength.

There are many options that don't involve cowering in fear, or pushing back.

When you have the awareness to see those you will be on your way to a different kind of mastery.

And by the way, it is possible.

Hmmm, some of what you have said I find a bit hard to understand.

Look I didn't have to prove him wrong. You're right he probably wouldn't even of understood, but what I didn't want was the unconfident voice that I projected. I wanted to sound like I couldn't give two hoots what he though and don't think you can overpower me, by interupting me.

I felt he was more powerful than me and so I let him project this bad feeling onto me. At the end of the day it was my fault, in the way I handled things - but I want to change this behaviour. I want it so these type of people, know they can not play games with me and so they will never try it.

It's basically an heir/aura I project.

[Gary]

Quoted from Ellie's post:

Ok, I have one major problem with my personality and that is I never have the strength to stand-up to people that overpower me.

I never have the guts to tell them really what I think, or give them a blasting and I know for a fact this creates low self esteem.

I feel If I conquer this fear I will become a much stronger person.

So please tell me there is hope for me, that I can start standing up for myself.

My mistake. I interpreted these lines as wanting to project a strong image to other people so that they wouldn't push you around.

I realize your larger goal is to not fall or be pushed into feeling intimidated.

To do this I suggest you practice the exercises in the audio program on self mastery. It will give you tools to address the emotions, feelings, and behaviors.

[A.K.Light]

I know where you're coming from, I think. You've just got to remember that nobody is superior to you. Here's how I imagine the ideal scenario.

You notice the boss is cockey. This isn't a bad thing. The more you know about him the more that can use your knowledge about him to your advantage. And him claiming to being an "up front" kind of guy is a good thing, in my opinion. This means that if you pay attention to what he says, you know what's going on, and if he tries to decieve you, you can call him out on it because he's an "up front" kind of guy. Had the thought of overtime crossed your mind before you stopped talking to the boss? Talking to someone who likes to be up front is a great way to get all the needed information right away.

I know how it gets harder to fix mistakes the longer you wait. Once you've gone for a while, you sort of just keep sweeping crap under the rug hoping you'll find a break. And usually, you don't, lol.

I would have been like "I'm sorry, but there's something that slipped my mind during the interview. I wanted to talk about my salary and overtime. I'm not too clear on that yet." And I would have said that as soon as I realized that I needed to. He would have respected that. I think it's good to make it seem like you asked the question right when it popped into your mind, as if you didn't want to wait around and waste time on it. Hesitation isn't exactly smiled upon.

When you always tackle problems right as they come up, it never seems like such a big deal. So that's my ideal reaction, but I still make plenty of mistakes, so then I've just got to learn from them and use that knowledge next time.

From the situation that you had already gotten yourself into, by not asking those questions right away and accepting the job right away, I can't really blame you for not defending yourself. I mean, there wasn't anything useful for you to say at the point, right? You had already decided not to take the job. Trying to make him feel like a jerk wouldn't have helped anything. So who cares if he thinks you're an idiot? LOL. That's just how guys like him work, so you have to constantly keep up with him (by not holding back questions or concerns) or you'll soon fall behind. I guess the important thing is that YOU know what happened. I don't think there was anything wrong with the way you reacted at that point in time.

You shouldn't feel too bad about it. That guy probably forgot all about it by the time he had lunch that day. Stuff like that happens to him all the time. It was nothing to him. To him, it's business, and it's probably better if you keep the same feelings about it. You start off equal and don't ever let a gap get created that puts them ahead of you. (Whether the gap is percieved on your end, or theirs.) Once the gap is there it's much more difficult to break, but if you can go through the discomfort of breaking it once, you can just be more careful about keeping it even after that. And I'm not a genius but that's just me trying to rationalize it. I wrote it for me just as much as I wrote it for you and everybody else. Hope it helps a little.

PS - There's been times when I couldn't resist saying what I really thought out loud. That's when I become the rude one who doesn't have control. And I hate that feeling.

[Gary]

You are writing a lot about what the boss is doing and maybe why. I don't think the question has to do with the boss. He is just used as an example. . The important issue is how does one feels emotionally when around such people and how do you change it.

[Simmiah]

Thank you for posting your story. I actually have had almost the same scenario come up with me when I was interviewing for a job about two years ago.

I didn't take the job & the guy who I had a gut feeling would be somewhat pushy/possibly sexually harrassing told me what a bad person I was for not taking the job & tried to bully me into feeling shamed.

It was awful & I spent the day sort of feeling really down. I remember it pretty well.

I am learning right now how to know that deep down I am okay even if someone tries to bully me..but in regards of what to do about the bully I have not gotten an answer. I have asked but the feeling I get is very passive almost like.. go with the flow Taoist type feeling.. like let the person be because even if I said something (& I have in the past..).. well here's what I think but I don't know if it is right. I think that sometimes saying something back will cause them to take it poorly & possibly it will make the bullying worse.

I did try this pretty recently with a girl who wasn't up front with me. I shared my feelings because she asked why I wouldn't go out with her & I instigated her calling me & harrassing me & insisting I was a bad person & I needed to be yelled at to make me be her friend. It was awful too.

Now I wish I had not said anything not because I was scared but because it would've been wise to. I actually ignored my gut feeling to just passively back off.

However I do not think every time a bully acts that it is best to back off but sometimes it may be best to do so. I do not personally know how to differentiate but if you do learn please post so I'll learn from you.

I hope this helps. Excuse my rambling.

[YouseffTheSheep]

What do you really expect to happen? You didn't get suckered into the job, right? Your goal = Call him and not take the job becuase you got screwed for over time, or so you thought. Your results = You called him, and turned down the job.

You win.

I know it feels like sh*t sometimes, even if you win, but you still won. There are some people who try and make you feel bad about things because that is the way they are.

I see your problem mostly lies here :

But I guess what I'm trying to show, is I really didn't stick up for myself. I let him interrupt me and I let him be annoyed with me and I left with a couple word sentence and I always do this. I let someone who does not deserve to spoken to nicely walk all over me.

Yes I did make some error judgements, but so did he and I wish I could of pointed them out, in a clear and confident manner.

I remember thinking like that after just about getting into a fight with someone. "Oh I should have punched him, or I should have said this... yadda yadda yadda".

The more experiences you have, the more you will grow. You can't stop people form interrupting you, that's why it's called interruption. He was annoyed with you because HE was annoyed you turned down the job.

Overall, you did good because you got what you wanted, even if it wasn't exactly how you wanted it. Feeling fear is human, feeling fear and fighting through it is courage. You had courage.

[ellie]

Originally Posted by YouseffTheSheep

What do you really expect to happen? You didn't get suckered into the job, right? Your goal = Call him and not take the job becuase you got screwed for over time, or so you thought. Your results = You called him, and turned down the job.

You win.

I did win, but there's more to it than that.

It's about projecting yourself in a certain way, so someone wont walk over you.

He wouldn't of interupted me, if my personality projected, strong, fearless, don't care attitude. It's about how I project my voice, eye contact (not in this instance), control.

Now I know these are the things I need to project (because it happens to me all the time) but I just always seem to stutter and stumble on my words.

[Gary]

It sounds more like you are seeking to have a strong presence. This is different than projecting.

When you have strong presence you don't have to try to project an image or impression.

Even if you develop a strong presence it doesn't mean that everyone will respond to it. Many people will still be unaware to the degree that their personality will still run its normal program. More time with them might make an impact, but you may not care to spend that much time with people with so little awareness.

[Thomas Jensen]

No, this is simply because most employers *know* that they are relying on people potentially weaker than themselves to run their business. Employers generally don't want to see people fulfilling their potential, because if this happened, then there would be nobody left to work for them and drive a profit for the business owner while he sits at home with his feet up. This is why so many employers give such a bad vibe, and why so many of them are bullies or show tendencies in that direction.

Most employers pretend that they want to see people having the same success they enjoyed. But deep down, they are insecure. They don't want that at all. They receive satisfaction knowing that there are less confident people around.

This is why becoming self-employed is a wise decision to make.

[Simmiah]

Originally Posted by Gary

Even if you develop a strong presence it doesn't mean that everyone will respond to it. Many people will still be unaware to the degree that their personality will still run its normal program. More time with them might make an impact, but you may not care to spend that much time with people with so little awareness.

I second this. I worked in a place where the professor abused (seriously..verbally abused) his employees. I don't believe that having a stronger presence necessarily nullifies the abuser's desire to abuse. It just sort of strengthens you inside so you don't feel shamed/guilted/attacked as badly.

My superior in the lab was J. While he would have to deal with said professor's tantrums & at times sulking spells.. J never got negative. I did see J get frustrated once but.. it was over. I believe it was because J had a great deal of inner strength & an inner peace that was there to some extent.

Having a stronger inner strength is a noble desire to have. However I don't believe that all people will be affected by it the same way so a bully may still bully.. & sometimes the bully may bully worse if you don't react with fear immediately because they see you not responding & their only desire is for you to succumb to their will.

I can understand feeling walked on.. I was there not too long ago. & there are times I will still fall prey to this but I realized that feeling walked on was about me more than about them. Sure I could stand up & yell or perhaps storm out & slam the door but.. would it make me feel empowered. Nope. I realize now that feeling walked on is because I let the person get to me. However figuring out how to not let them get to me..that answer has not been so quick but I will say getting away from bullies sure helps

[Mark Lapierre]

I also agree with those who say you can't always get people to respond to your presence.

I think one of the most important things I've learnt in all of my years, the thing that has most helped me to accept and improve myself, and most helped me in my dealings with others, is the fact that I am the only one who can make me feel a certain way. So if someone says something that hurts me, there's no point in getting angry at them because the hurt comes from inside me. They didn't cause it, it's my feelings in response to my thoughts about what they said.

There was a time when I'd get upset if I thought people were teasing me, even if they were just joking around. I'd still see their words and actions as intentionally mean, even though they meant no harm at all.

Now you already understand all that, you've acknowledged that you react in a way that's undesirable. But there's also the flip side which Gary and Simmiah mentioned, that other people do the same thing! So regardless of how you behave, regardless of what you project, some people will treat you however they want to treat you.

Also, while it's just a word, the word 'project' implies that your appearance is different to how you actually feel. It sounds as if you want to show that you're confident while you still feel anything but... That's ok, showing confidence when you don't feel it will lead to true confidence, eventually. But you'll get there faster if you focus on being confident, rather than just projecting confidence.

So in summary, by focusing on projecting confidence, you're using up time and energy that could be put towards improving your ability to stay calm in the face of situations which currently upset you. Once you do that it won't matter how other people react, you'll still be able to do and say exactly what you want to, regardless of what they see in you.

[Liara Covert]

Mark makes great points as do people in previous threads.
It's wise not to get too analytical about what you didn't do in the past. After all, that won't change other people or results of your past experiences.

Alternatively, it's useful is to seek insight into your feelings, especially root causes of your fears. Since you control your emotions, and how your learn, you will determine whether you develop confidence and other abilities or not. If you desire to strengthen any particular traits, you can take steps to do this. Transferable skills will enable you to feel more assertive, comfortable and confident in the future, no matter whom you encounter or where. Consider how you would like to feel, behave and come across. Visualize and creat these feelings and states of mind from inside yourself. It will come.

Personally, I reflect back on previous employers who treated me in ways which prompted me to develop assertiveness, confidence and other useful skills. That said, even people who cause you to feel uncomfortable are good for you if they prompt you to take initiatives to make positive changes.

[Freelancer]

I used to be the target of a bully for several years over different schools, it was a rather unique situations. I always considered my bully to be my friend, and his friends to be part of my friends. In reality they where using me to find a outlet for there own fears, I used to never 'stood up' for myself. Eventually I developed a self defense mechanism where I basically placed all the bad experiences inside a little box in my brain (so to speak) where it can't hurt me. This wasn't a real solution but it meant that I wasn't emotionally damaged initially. However as this continued these feelings/emotions where still around, just hidden inside me.

At one point I was basically overcharged with emotions (and a few other reasons I don't want to mention here) and ran away for a day, my parents where extremely worried about me. I came back in the middle of the night, I left without any preparing anything. I just decided while cycling towards school that I wasn't going to stop at school and so I continue'd with no plan or anything. I am still wondering to this point whether its the stupidest thing I ever did or the best thing, when I got back I realized how much I hurted my parents. But the best thing looking back is that it all had to come out at that point, the little box was opened and everything spilled out.

This didn't mean that the bully's where handled at that point, in fact I'm fairly sure they still don't know I ran away. They couldn't do anything because it wasn't much more than constant teasing/taking things/etc. but nothing that was punishable by school. They got a firm talk from one of the teachers and there parents but I still had to solve it myself. This only stopped them temporarily, I know they also viewed me as a friend so they still hanged out with me. This groups mechanic was severely messed up and they considered it normal to 'bully' other members of the group. A while they didn't touch me so to speak, but it didn't take long before they got back in the same pattern.

At that point I made a decision that was both the hardest and the easiest in my life, I decided I wouldn't hang out with them anymore. Its an easy decision because it makes sense if you read the above that you don't hang out with the people that bully you. But it was the hardest decision because I knew these people since childhood, when I was young I swore to the main 'bully' that we'll be best friends for eternity (silly offcourse, but it illustrates that I did consider my friends).

This whole experience however did teach me something, it teached me that the greatest strength is inside of you. I know it will never get as bad again, I won't let it. Not because there aren't people that will bully me around, but because it doesn't hurt me anymore. I know I am above them, they might not realize but thats ok. I am better than the bully's and I am not going to lower myself to there level. This inner strength and realization gave me a lot of confidence in myself.
I am still recovering from all this (even though it ended 4 years ago) emotionally and socially because I still have reservations with friends/unknown people. Those bullies hurt me deep inside and this made me put a cage around myself, now I in the process of breaking down this cage and allowing people to 'touch' me again so to say. But because of my inner strength and confidence I'll be able to cope with it when they turn around and hurt me, after all if I managed to get through everything above than no matter what they do it can't be half as bad. Its difficult at this point to trust people and to trust my emotions to someone...

I hope this is helpfull in some way, it sure feels good to write it down. I'm not sure if its applicable to your specific situation, but hopefully you take something out of it.

[Gary]

One possible to change this is to join a group such as Toastmasters and work on your speaking and presentation skills. By practicing in front of others you will become more comfortable interacting in such situations.

It is a direct way to challenge the old ways of presenting your self.

You can't really think your way out of a behavior. Action is the means to change.

[ellie]

Hey guys, thanks for all your advice and great personal stories. I think there are some great points that I can take and use. I have definetly been thinking of doing toastmasters or acting classes. Probably toastmaster would be the most beneficial for me at this stage.

Of course it wont happen over night, but it will happen!

I'm starting to become h