Gender Identity Disorder

[blacksofa]

Gender is a social construct (and I wouldn't really say it's 'real' for that reason). That said, it is whatever you want it to be. Being in a male body does not mean you have to identify with being a man/masculine. There are several people around where I live who switch their pronouns and identifications. You too are free to do the same. (However, I also live in a liberal college town bubble...so I realize this is not so easy elsewhere.)

A few things I wanted to ask that I couldn't completely pull out from your post;
Are you unhappy with your male body or your masculine/male gender identity?

Are you digusted with your body or rather the beliefs you have attached to your body?

"And the whole nature vs nurture debate just fuels my depression anyway. It just reaffirms my current viewpoint that humans have no power, we are not in control...We're impressionable little robots created a way that we did not choose."

We may not have direct control over these things, but we have absolute control in how we percieve them and allow them to affect us.

[Cochonette]

What immaterial thing have you found to hold onto, if you don't mind me asking?

Knowing that I can make the world a better place. Each day I can improve something in the world, or at least try. For a friend of mine, "To be a matchstick to candles that sit untouched." Of course, I still cling to things. I'm not saying it's easy.

If gender is not real, what is? How much can we strip away from our body and our personality until nothing is left? Without a self, or any characteristics, why bother to exist?

I honestly don't care much if my body is male or female. That person obviously went from caring to not caring. Reality is what we make of it. The question is, how do you take control of that reality? I do care what my body looks like... I don't want to be very overweight, I don't want to have long hair... but as long as I can get by in life, I don't notice it that much. Now I'm not suggesting it should be so easy for you, since it isn't, but you asked.

It doesn't sound like you've talked to many trans people. Why don't you go onto a trans/genderqueer website and talk to people? I'm sure there are many varied experiences.

[person]

Originally Posted by blacksofa

Gender is a social construct (and I wouldn't really say it's 'real' for that reason). That said, it is whatever you want it to be. Being in a male body does not mean you have to identify with being a man/masculine. There are several people around where I live who switch their pronouns and identifications. You too are free to do the same. (However, I also live in a liberal college town bubble...so I realize this is not so easy elsewhere.)

A few things I wanted to ask that I couldn't completely pull out from your post;
Are you unhappy with your male body or your masculine/male gender identity?

Are you digusted with your body or rather the beliefs you have attached to your body?

Yes, I am unhappy with my male body. I dislike everything about it. It's not that I dislike males, I just dislike having a male body. I don't like how it looks or how it feels and I am never comfortable in my own skin. I hate my hair, face, physique, skin, limbs, everything.

I'm not sure what you mean by asking whether I am unhappy with my masculine/male gender identity. The whole point is that I don't have a male/masculine gender identity- I have a female one and a desire to have a body that I enjoy and feel comfortable in.

I'm not sure how you are using the word "disgusted" here, so it's hard for me to give an answer to that. Over time I have begun to view animal life in general is rather disgusting, what with bones, guts, blood, goo, flesh, hair, fluids, and all. I can certainly see why gnostics despised matter so much and thought it was false.

But in a more removed sense, I'm not quite disgusted with the body. When I look in the mirror, I see a reasonably handsome man- it just doesn't feel like my face and I don't relate to it.

I am most disgusted when I get a hair cut. Ever since I was a little kid, I hated getting my hair cut. I wanted long hair, and hated how I looked with short hair. But my parents always made me get my hair cut. Later, when I had the choice of what to do with my hair, I had a mildly receded hairline and so it looked terrible long, so I reluctantly get it cut pretty short, but I still cringe looking in the mirror during the process. After I get a haircut I have to immediately take a very long shower to try to calm myself down about it.

[rei]

Originally Posted by person

Yes, I am unhappy with my male body. I dislike everything about it. It's not that I dislike males, I just dislike having a male body. I don't like how it looks or how it feels and I am never comfortable in my own skin. I hate my hair, face, physique, skin, limbs, everything.

I'm not sure what you mean by asking whether I am unhappy with my masculine/male gender identity. The whole point is that I don't have a male/masculine gender identity- I have a female one and a desire to have a body that I enjoy and feel comfortable in.

I'm not sure how you are using the word "disgusted" here, so it's hard for me to give an answer to that. Over time I have begun to view animal life in general is rather disgusting, what with bones, guts, blood, goo, flesh, hair, fluids, and all. I can certainly see why gnostics despised matter so much and thought it was false.

But in a more removed sense, I'm not quite disgusted with the body. When I look in the mirror, I see a reasonably handsome man- it just doesn't feel like my face and I don't relate to it.

would you say more about why you have rejected the idea of an operation?

everything you say here makes it sound like you are a perfect candidate for an operation, it is often something they do specifically for folks who feel like they are in the wrong body and whose issues are basically limited to that (or can be shown as side effects of that core issue).

since several folks have said it sounds like a physical adjustment would be so helpful, i am wondering if you'll say more about why you reject that option.

and what else is left if you find yourself so discontent with things as they are, reject the metaphysical perspective, reject the medical opportunities? what other options are there in shifting either your attitude about the situation or shifting the situation itself?

p.s. about the hair. have you considered growing it long and starting a collection of hats and bandanas and other items you could wear to cover the very top of your head? you could certainly find stylish options that would fit a variety of wardrobe choices. just something to think about. i've worn my hair boyishly short and lately it's quite long for spiritual reasons. i went through a hat phase and accumulated quite a collection. i would describe myself as an androgyne but it's more the spiritual androgyny and less about sexuality (technically attracted to both biological makeups), but i feel comfortable in my body even as i can behave in very masculine ways (such as spitting and whatnot)... so i can't quite relate, other than as a person who doesn't fit mainstream expectations around gender and sexuality. i'd say your experience is still a bit different, though. i never really wanted to be in a male form... i just oscillate between feeling male, feeling female, or feeling like both all at once.

[person]

Originally Posted by rei

would you say more about why you have rejected the idea of an operation?

everything you say here makes it sound like you are a perfect candidate for an operation, it is often something they do specifically for folks who feel like they are in the wrong body and whose issues are basically limited to that (or can be shown as side effects of that core issue).

since several folks have said it sounds like a physical adjustment would be so helpful, i am wondering if you'll say more about why you reject that option.

Two main reasons.

1- I do not think I would look attractive if I switched. With the body I have, I would not look like a woman. I would look like a man with an easy-to-identify sex-change operation. Some people pull it off really well. They get it done when they are young or they have other qualities that make it work. The way I look would not work well visually. I feel that I'd have the same problem I have now except it would be visibly obvious. Currently, I have terrible self image problems not because my body is unattractive but because I can't relate at all to my body and hate it. If I switch and look like a man that is trying to look like a woman, I'll just feel ugly, unfeminine, and I'll have the additional problems of probably being out of a job, losing several friends and family members, and forever facing an even tougher life due to hate that people feel towards those that are different. So I don't think I'll have gained anything but I feel like I'll have lost a lot.

2- My depression about gender has expanded into general/philosophical depression about life. I feel like getting a gender reassignment reaffirms that physical matter and how we look are important. I've tried unsuccessfully to be able to accept this body, be content with it, and accept what life brings me even if I hate it everyday and it never gets any better. I feel like the surgery reaffirms the fact that happiness is external, something that is dependent on our environment (in my case, my environment being what my body looks like). Basically, I feel that it's like telling a woman who is constantly distressed about how her nose looks that getting a nose job will solve all of her problems. I realize that gender reassignment has a quite high probability of success, but I feel like with these sort of thoughts, it won't really cure my sadness.

and what else is left if you find yourself so discontent with things as they are, reject the metaphysical perspective, reject the medical opportunities? what other options are there in shifting either your attitude about the situation or shifting the situation itself?

Most likely: live a sad life and then die.

In the past I felt suicidal, and sometimes I still do because I never have joy, but so far I've been strong enough to stop those thoughts from becoming actions, and so I hope to be able to hold the thoughts away long enough that I'll eventually die from something else like a disease, an accident, or old age instead of suicide. From numerous sources I've read, somewhere between 30 and 50% of people with gender identity disorder are estimated to end up killing themselves, and I'd like to be on the other side of that statistic.

I've tried to dedicate myself to helping others. In various attempts to make sense of this situation, I've considered that maybe this is a blessing and an opportunity for me to have a life dedicated to helping others instead of myself like most people do. For most people, 99% of the actions they take are about themselves, so I decided that since I hate myself and so have the "lucky" situation of not caring much about buying things or experiencing things since they never do me any good anyway, I might as well work and donate money and time to help others. So I viewed my life's worth as the number of hours and the amount of money that I can give away. But so far it's been unsatisfying and hasn't helped me cope at all. Sometimes I'm so depressed I can't even help others. It remains helpful in that it keeps suicide at bay, because I tell myself that if I kill myself then I'm being selfish, but that's obviously not satisfying. One problem is that I realized that I'm probably of less help than someone without this gender issue because even though I might dedicate more hours and money to charity than an average person, by being sad all the time around people and by not raising children and grandchildren, I'm probably actually doing less than most people.

[blacksofa]

I thought you had used the word 'disgusted' in referring to your own body but looking back I cannot find the quote so I must be mistaken. Probably referring to this - 'I hate my body, how it looks and how it feels, and have a hard time being physically attracted to people due to it.'

As far as some other things you said, like not enjoying your body or having an identity to associate with, one of my main problems in my life was that I associated being a 'woman' too much, and trying to be what I thought a woman was.

Do you feel that you need a gender identity? I know for me it was helpful to stop identifying with being a woman and not take it seriously, I've just accepted that this is the body I was born into and that I can do with it what I like. I don't specifically identify with being a woman.

I don't know if that would help in your situation though, since I've never specifically ever wanted a male body.

[person]

Originally Posted by blacksofa

I thought you had used the word 'disgusted' in referring to your own body but looking back I cannot find the quote so I must be mistaken. Probably referring to this - 'I hate my body, how it looks and how it feels, and have a hard time being physically attracted to people due to it.'

As far as some other things you said, like not enjoying your body or having an identity to associate with, one of my main problems in my life was that I associated being a 'woman' too much, and trying to be what I thought a woman was.

Do you feel that you need a gender identity? I know for me it was helpful to stop identifying with being a woman and not take it seriously, I've just accepted that this is the body I was born into and that I can do with it what I like. I don't specifically identify with being a woman.

I don't know if that would help in your situation though, since I've never specifically ever wanted a male body.

It's not so much that I need a gender identity like a label. It's just that I wish my physical body would express how I view myself. I feel like I'm constantly walking around in a costume all the time, like a big mascot uniform or something.

Plus, in this form I am forever without romance. I am attracted to men (typically straight men, or at least men that don't have particularly feminine qualities, which is true for some homosexual men as well), but I'm not attracted to the way that men physically have sex with each other, and so I don't feel comfortable with an intimate relationship with a man with this body. The "bits" just don't mesh well for me.

And when it comes to women, I'm just not attracted to them. I tried it back in high school and early college, to date, pursue, kiss, but it was all fake and forced for me, and unpleasurable.

[rei]

Originally Posted by person

Two main reasons.

1- I do not think I would look attractive if I switched. With the body I have, I would not look like a woman. I would look like a man with an easy-to-identify sex-change operation. Some people pull it off really well. They get it done when they are young or they have other qualities that make it work. The way I look would not work well visually. I feel that I'd have the same problem I have now except it would be visibly obvious. Currently, I have terrible self image problems not because my body is unattractive but because I can't relate at all to my body and hate it. If I switch and look like a man that is trying to look like a woman, I'll just feel ugly, unfeminine, and I'll have the additional problems of probably being out of a job, losing several friends and family members, and forever facing an even tougher life due to hate that people feel towards those that are different. So I don't think I'll have gained anything but I feel like I'll have lost a lot.

are you saying they could not even do any cosmetic adjustments to your physical form so your features would look more naturally feminine? i am confused because i thought that was often part of the process, to make those adjustments so the person looks more naturally like the new gender.

have you even explored it enough to find out from a professional whether there is any hope of looking more natural than you think you would?

Originally Posted by person

2- My depression about gender has expanded into general/philosophical depression about life. I feel like getting a gender reassignment reaffirms that physical matter and how we look are important. I've tried unsuccessfully to be able to accept this body, be content with it, and accept what life brings me even if I hate it everyday and it never gets any better. I feel like the surgery reaffirms the fact that happiness is external, something that is dependent on our environment (in my case, my environment being what my body looks like). Basically, I feel that it's like telling a woman who is constantly distressed about how her nose looks that getting a nose job will solve all of her problems. I realize that gender reassignment has a quite high probability of success, but I feel like with these sort of thoughts, it won't really cure my sadness.

yes, you said earlier that the initial depression spread to a broader perspective. i would imagine this sort of effect is pretty common in this situation.

i don't know if i would agree that you're helping yourself to cling to this philosophical view though. it sounds like you are just creating more of a negative spiral working from this perspective - which i will admit is common if a person is feeling depressed.

besides you aren't just talking about how your body looks. you're talking about how it feels to be in this body - in it - that's internal.

technically surgery wouldn't cure you. but it would likely inspire you to shift your own attitude, and you could work with caring professionals who would be dedicated to helping you let go of these negative thought patterns. well, you could work with caring professionals now actually - it's not about relying on others, it's about working with them to help yourself, which is quite different. using others as tools to clear the blocks you've created to noticing the happiness you're capable of generating for yourself.

Originally Posted by person

Most likely: live a sad life and then die.

In the past I felt suicidal, and sometimes I still do because I never have joy, but so far I've been strong enough to stop those thoughts from becoming actions, and so I hope to be able to hold the thoughts away long enough that I'll eventually die from something else like a disease, an accident, or old age instead of suicide. From numerous sources I've read, somewhere between 30 and 50% of people with gender identity disorder are estimated to end up killing themselves, and I'd like to be on the other side of that statistic.

I've tried to dedicate myself to helping others. In various attempts to make sense of this situation, I've considered that maybe this is a blessing and an opportunity for me to have a life dedicated to helping others instead of myself like most people do. For most people, 99% of the actions they take are about themselves, so I decided that since I hate myself and so have the "lucky" situation of not caring much about buying things or experiencing things since they never do me any good anyway, I might as well work and donate money and time to help others. So I viewed my life's worth as the number of hours and the amount of money that I can give away. But so far it's been unsatisfying and hasn't helped me cope at all. Sometimes I'm so depressed I can't even help others. It remains helpful in that it keeps suicide at bay, because I tell myself that if I kill myself then I'm being selfish, but that's obviously not satisfying. One problem is that I realized that I'm probably of less help than someone without this gender issue because even though I might dedicate more hours and money to charity than an average person, by being sad all the time around people and by not raising children and grandchildren, I'm probably actually doing less than most people.

yeah this sounds like an awful place to be my friend! i am not in your shoes but if i were, i would probably end up deciding that the benefits of exploring surgery in earnest seemed much preferable to the alternative you have listed.

to be honest, it feels like there is something else going on in your reservations about gender reassignment. but, i am definitely not trying to make you share whatever it might be. i'm just pointing out that it feels, intuitively, like something is missing from the explanation you provided. i offer that in case you may want to explore it for yourself, i don't expect you to respond here in the thread though.

i do hope you can get to a course of action that feels right for you.

[Thales]

I can relate to the OP, a little I think. I used to be straight as an arrow, until about age 13 or so, then I started feeling attracted to men. Then, I fantasized about having "relations" with men while being a woman. I do hate my body, but not because of the masculine characteristics, but because it isn't masculine enough. I think I am too thin, thus unattractive as a man, I might make a somewhat easier transition as a women than some other men, but I don't think I could ever do something like that to my family.

What is odd though is that I doubt the legitimacy of my "gender change" fantasies, and my attraction to other men, as I am somewhat attracted to other women. Although my attraction is geared primarily towards other men (only a certain type, though).

Bascically, I am very confused, but can still relate to wanting to be the opposite gender, and the attractions towards men.

Sorry, if you find this irrelevant.

[rei]

Originally Posted by Thales

I think I am too thin, thus unattractive as a man,

ooh i find thinness in men to be very sexy... probably because i find androgyny sexy.

but i'm technically a woman and technically in a relationship so you may not care about my opinion. many of my male friends who end up interested in males enjoy thin partners.

oh, and i went through a phase where i could really only orgasm if i imagined i was the male partner having sex with me. it was kinda weird. something about taking on the frame of being the guy did it for me. don't think it is the same thing as the OP's view, though, because i do enjoy being a biological female most of the time... then again, i've played with my own nipples before as if they weren't mine.

i just think these things aren't as cut and dried as the mainstream community would want them to be.

[Thales]

Originally Posted by rei

ooh i find thinness in men to be very sexy... probably because i find androgyny sexy.

but i'm technically a woman and technically in a relationship so you may not care about my opinion. many of my male friends who end up interested in males enjoy thin partners.

oh, and i went through a phase where i could really only orgasm if i imagined i was the male partner having sex with me. it was kinda weird. something about taking on the frame of being the guy did it for me. don't think it is the same thing as the OP's view, though, because i do enjoy being a biological female most of the time... then again, i've played with my own nipples before as if they weren't mine.

i just think these things aren't as cut and dried as the mainstream community would want them to be.

Yeah, I know thinness isn't all that bad, but sometimes I wish I could add 15-20lbs of muscle (probably somewhat more than that). And I still care what women think, I am still a little bit attracted to them, in general. But when I am thinking about being a woman, I have these totally submissive fantasies, sometimes it is hard to shake them because they embody my desires so much.

And yes, mentalities more than likely have as many variations as there are the number of species on the planet.

[rei]

Originally Posted by Thales

Yeah, I know thinness isn't all that bad, but sometimes I wish I could add 15-20lbs of muscle (probably somewhat more than that). And I still care what women think, I am still a little bit attracted to them, in general. But when I am thinking about being a woman, I have these totally submissive fantasies, sometimes it is hard to shake them because they embody my desires so much.

And yes, mentalities more than likely have as many variations as there are the number of species on the planet.

so is it the dominant (aka "strong") woman that you feel more than slightly attracted to, or are your interests more about a certain look?

gender roles can be bent and broken in so many different ways! it can be delicate business though, especially when it comes to men who prefer to be more submissive. that tends to be more kosher in the gay community, not so much if he's with a woman though. (my opinion is if they are enjoying it and it works for them then who cares...) i've noticed some folks don't respond well at all to androgyny, because it's not something where the person fits into a neat category. usually other androgynes are the most accepting and there's much less overt or covert pressure to pick a side.

OP, have you thought about taking hormones to see if it will affect your physical form... almost like a preview of how it would be to get the reassignment procedure? i haven't looked into it much but based on what i have been exposed to i think hormones can be prescribed as a kind of compromise. or as a way to see if it would feel better to be more aligned with the opposite biological sex.

[Thales]

Originally Posted by rei

so is it the dominant (aka "strong") woman that you feel more than slightly attracted to, or are your interests more about a certain look?

gender roles can be bent and broken in so many different ways! it can be delicate business though, especially when it comes to men who prefer to be more submissive. that tends to be more kosher in the gay community, not so much if he's with a woman though. (my opinion is if they are enjoying it and it works for them then who cares...) i've noticed some folks don't respond well at all to androgyny, because it's not something where the person fits into a neat category. usually other androgynes are the most accepting and there's much less overt or covert pressure to pick a side.

Actually, no I'm not really into "dominant" women, when I am attracted to a women, they usually have a curvy form, coupled with a nice face obviously, so yes it is about a certain look. I suppose I prefer the stereotypical gender roles, depending on which gender I feel attracted to at the time (if an individual stands out to me). If I am attracted to a women, I fantasize about dominating her (well, you know what I mean), and if I am attracted to a man, I fantasize about being dominated, sometimes as me being a women.

Anyway, I apologize if I'm not communicating clearly, I'm getting tired.

[rei]

Originally Posted by Thales

Anyway, I apologize if I'm not communicating clearly, I'm getting tired.

no worries i did understand what you shared, and thanks for answering me as i do enjoy hearing about the preferences of other folks quite fascinating really.

probably best to allow this thread to stay on track anyway... OP sorry for straying.

[Thales]

Yes, sorry for the tangent OP. My initial reason for posting was to just let you know someone could somewhat relate to what you wrote. Anyway, I digress.

[person]

Originally Posted by rei

are you saying they could not even do any cosmetic adjustments to your physical form so your features would look more naturally feminine? i am confused because i thought that was often part of the process, to make those adjustments so the person looks more naturally like the new gender.

have you even explored it enough to find out from a professional whether there is any hope of looking more natural than you think you would?

They can of course make one look more feminine (or vice versa). But how good the end result looks is based in part on what you look like before. A petite man with soft features and a full head of hair that he can grow out will likely be able to transition thoroughly enough so that he can look entirely female like s/he is on the inside. In contrast, it is much harder to make a masculine-looking man look like a woman.

I'd need laser hair removal over pretty much my whole body, some sort of hair transplant for my head to fix a receding hairline, hormones to soften skin and grow breasts, and reconstruction surgery to address he lower regions, but things like a masculine square jaw, predominant brow, deep voice, are hard to fix. I'd have to get more plastic surgery than Michael Jackson to fix that stuff. I don't have very soft features, so I'd just look like a man that is trying to look like a woman. I've known transsexuals that I was immediately able to identify as a transsexual because they can only do so much based on what you already have.

yes, you said earlier that the initial depression spread to a broader perspective. i would imagine this sort of effect is pretty common in this situation.

i don't know if i would agree that you're helping yourself to cling to this philosophical view though. it sounds like you are just creating more of a negative spiral working from this perspective - which i will admit is common if a person is feeling depressed.

besides you aren't just talking about how your body looks. you're talking about how it feels to be in this body - in it - that's internal.

technically surgery wouldn't cure you. but it would likely inspire you to shift your own attitude, and you could work with caring professionals who would be dedicated to helping you let go of these negative thought patterns. well, you could work with caring professionals now actually - it's not about relying on others, it's about working with them to help yourself, which is quite different. using others as tools to clear the blocks you've created to noticing the happiness you're capable of generating for yourself.

yeah this sounds like an awful place to be my friend! i am not in your shoes but if i were, i would probably end up deciding that the benefits of exploring surgery in earnest seemed much preferable to the alternative you have listed.

to be honest, it feels like there is something else going on in your reservations about gender reassignment. but, i am definitely not trying to make you share whatever it might be. i'm just pointing out that it feels, intuitively, like something is missing from the explanation you provided. i offer that in case you may want to explore it for yourself, i don't expect you to respond here in the thread though.

i do hope you can get to a course of action that feels right for you.

To the best of my knowledge I'm not hiding anything. It's difficult for me to talk about this, but anonymously I can at least get it out in the open.

Originally Posted by Thales

I can relate to the OP, a little I think. I used to be straight as an arrow, until about age 13 or so, then I started feeling attracted to men. Then, I fantasized about having "relations" with men while being a woman. I do hate my body, but not because of the masculine characteristics, but because it isn't masculine enough. I think I am too thin, thus unattractive as a man, I might make a somewhat easier transition as a women than some other men, but I don't think I could ever do something like that to my family.

What is odd though is that I doubt the legitimacy of my "gender change" fantasies, and my attraction to other men, as I am somewhat attracted to other women. Although my attraction is geared primarily towards other men (only a certain type, though).

Bascically, I am very confused, but can still relate to wanting to be the opposite gender, and the attractions towards men.

Sorry, if you find this irrelevant.

Originally Posted by Thales

Yes, sorry for the tangent OP. My initial reason for posting was to just let you know someone could somewhat relate to what you wrote. Anyway, I digress.

Thank you for relating. I don't mind the tangent if it's helpful to you since it relates to the original post.

I ran into significant mental trouble when I became attracted to one of my best friends. He's a straight male that I've known for a while, and I had been attracted to him and visualized myself as a woman with him. He had a few bad short relationships that caused him significant pain and I just wanted to hold him, and felt that I could make him so much happier than his other relationships if only I had the right body. I had to distance myself somewhat from him so that it wouldn't get weird.

[ChrisG]

Originally Posted by person

Two main reasons.

1- I do not think I would look attractive if I switched. With the body I have, I would not look like a woman. I would look like a man with an easy-to-identify sex-change operation. Some people pull it off really well. They get it done when they are young or they have other qualities that make it work. The way I look would not work well visually. I feel that I'd have the same problem I have now except it would be visibly obvious. Currently, I have terrible self image problems not because my body is unattractive but because I can't relate at all to my body and hate it. If I switch and look like a man that is trying to look like a woman, I'll just feel ugly, unfeminine, and I'll have the additional problems of probably being out of a job, losing several friends and family members, and forever facing an even tougher life due to hate that people feel towards those that are different. So I don't think I'll have gained anything but I feel like I'll have lost a lot.

2- My depression about gender has expanded into general/philosophical depression about life. I feel like getting a gender reassignment reaffirms that physical matter and how we look are important. I've tried unsuccessfully to be able to accept this body, be content with it, and accept what life brings me even if I hate it everyday and it never gets any better. I feel like the surgery reaffirms the fact that happiness is external, something that is dependent on our environment (in my case, my environment being what my body looks like). Basically, I feel that it's like telling a woman who is constantly distressed about how her nose looks that getting a nose job will solve all of her problems. I realize that gender reassignment has a quite high probability of success, but I feel like with these sort of thoughts, it won't really cure my sadness.

You really need to stop worrying about how it will turn out if you get reassignment surgery. Which would you rather have? Carry on being stuck in a body that you loathe with every ounce of your soul... or have a female body which reflects the person you have always been? You don't know how it will turn out. Stop convincing yourself that you're going to be unfeminine and need lots of plastic surgery etc. Attractiveness starts with feeling good about yourself. Just visualise yourself having just had surgery... you can make a fresh start!! You're finally the same gender on the outside as you are on the inside!! Time to turn your life around, don't you think? I agree, there may be a lot of upheaval involved in your life- some friends may leave you, you may have family/job issues, but in the long run it's all for the best.

To reiterate- attractiveness begins with feeling good about yourself and feeling confident. If you have those key things in place, then you can become an attractive, confident, dynamic woman.

To address your second point- maybe gender reassignment does reinforce the idea that physical matter is important, but sweetie, we live in a physical world! Sometimes things relating to the physical ARE important, and there's nothing you can do about it. You came here to have an experience of life on the physical, material plane. Embrace the physical side of things!

As for happiness being dependent on external things, in your case it clearly seems to be. But there is no shame in that. It's easier to be happy if you're rich than poor. It is easier to be happy with an encouraging, supportive boyfriend than an abusive, violent one. Similarly, it is easier to be happy in a body that reflects the true you rather than one that doesn't.
Happiness CAN come from within as well as from without. The two do not mutually exclude one another. What you're worried about is giving your power to things outside of you. This does not necessarily have to happen.


Have no fear. The surgery will help, I promise you. It will be the best decision you ever made.

[Cochonette]

Well-said, Chris. And I would like to add that it's our choice to view something as external or not. I believe Steve would say that everything is internal to us because we create our experience, the way we experience everything in our lives. So it's our choice to view body as an outer thing we're dependent on; well, actually, we are our body and everything else. Where does self end and other begin? Michel Foucault would say that the soul is the body's prison, not the other way around.

[sonde]

Originally Posted by person

I realize that gender reassignment has a quite high probability of success, but I feel like with these sort of thoughts, it won't really cure my sadness.

As seen here, your real problem is your thoughts - and the feelings (eg sadness) that arise as a result of these thoughts.

Originally Posted by ChrisG

To reiterate- attractiveness begins with feeling good about yourself and feeling confident. If you have those key things in place, then you can become an attractive....

I suggest that if you have those things in place, you do not need to become attractive, you already are. Thus, no need for surgery.

[The Unconquered]

Originally Posted by person

They can of course make one look more feminine (or vice versa). But how good the end result looks is based in part on what you look like before.

This is one of the reasons I decided against surgery as well, as I am an extremely tiny woman and would feel "fake" as a male in that respect. My mental self-image at one point was about 10 inches taller and 100 pounds heavier. Not gonna happen

[Manomanman]

Originally Posted by person

How can happiness be tied to something so mundane like what kind of meat we're made of.

I think you're working under the assumption that happiness comes from an objective place - that there's some kind of "recipe" for happiness you can follow to achieve it.

Happiness is 100% subjective. It's up to you to determine what will make you happy.

It sounds to me like you've come to the foregone conclusion that you'll never be happy.

[person]

Originally Posted by ChrisG

You really need to stop worrying about how it will turn out if you get reassignment surgery. Which would you rather have? Carry on being stuck in a body that you loathe with every ounce of your soul... or have a female body which reflects the person you have always been? You don't know how it will turn out. Stop convincing yourself that you're going to be unfeminine and need lots of plastic surgery etc. Attractiveness starts with feeling good about yourself. Just visualise yourself having just had surgery... you can make a fresh start!! You're finally the same gender on the outside as you are on the inside!! Time to turn your life around, don't you think? I agree, there may be a lot of upheaval involved in your life- some friends may leave you, you may have family/job issues, but in the long run it's all for the best.

To reiterate- attractiveness begins with feeling good about yourself and feeling confident. If you have those key things in place, then you can become an attractive, confident, dynamic woman.

To address your second point- maybe gender reassignment does reinforce the idea that physical matter is important, but sweetie, we live in a physical world! Sometimes things relating to the physical ARE important, and there's nothing you can do about it. You came here to have an experience of life on the physical, material plane. Embrace the physical side of things!

As for happiness being dependent on external things, in your case it clearly seems to be. But there is no shame in that. It's easier to be happy if you're rich than poor. It is easier to be happy with an encouraging, supportive boyfriend than an abusive, violent one. Similarly, it is easier to be happy in a body that reflects the true you rather than one that doesn't.
Happiness CAN come from within as well as from without. The two do not mutually exclude one another. What you're worried about is giving your power to things outside of you. This does not necessarily have to happen.


Have no fear. The surgery will help, I promise you. It will be the best decision you ever made.

This post was particularly helpful. Thank you.

I will dwell on it.

Originally Posted by Cochonette

Well-said, Chris. And I would like to add that it's our choice to view something as external or not. I believe Steve would say that everything is internal to us because we create our experience, the way we experience everything in our lives. So it's our choice to view body as an outer thing we're dependent on; well, actually, we are our body and everything else. Where does self end and other begin? Michel Foucault would say that the soul is the body's prison, not the other way around.

I'm not sure what you (or Foucault) mean by that. The soul is the body's prison?

Originally Posted by sonde

As seen here, your real problem is your thoughts - and the feelings (eg sadness) that arise as a result of these thoughts.

I suggest that if you have those things in place, you do not need to become attractive, you already are. Thus, no need for surgery.

But the problem is not that I feel unattractive. I have a reasonably attractive body, but it just feels so out of sync with how I feel about myself. Objectively it looks fine, but I just don't think it looks fine on me, and it doesn't feel right on me. And as previously mentioned, the body gets in the way of having romance/a partner because the bits are wrong; they don't mesh well with what I am attracted to and what I am not attracted to.

The surgery wouldn't be to fix unattractiveness, it would be to realign my physical sex with my perceived gender. The issue I bring up about potentially being unattractive only comes into play if I go through with the surgery.

Originally Posted by Manomanman

I think you're working under the assumption that happiness comes from an objective place - that there's some kind of "recipe" for happiness you can follow to achieve it.

Happiness is 100% subjective. It's up to you to determine what will make you happy.

It sounds to me like you've come to the foregone conclusion that you'll never be happy.

I don't think there is some objective recipe that everyone should follow, but I'm under the impression that there are some deeper forms of happiness than others. A drug fix might make someone happy, but in the long run it may be of low quality. A model might be happy if she's skinny and gets a bunch of nose jobs, but in the long run that might be of low quality.

I just have reservations that cosmetic surgery is the path to happiness, even if I have been so far unable to find happiness in any other way.

I've spent so long trying to be content with what I have, but I haven't gotten it to work. I've tried meditation, I've tried focusing on others, but it never makes the emptiness go away. I think the surgery will make me happier, but at what cost? It's an admission that my happiness is utterly dependent on cosmetic surgery to realign my outside with my inside.

[Manomanman]

Originally Posted by person

It's an admission that my happiness is utterly dependent on cosmetic surgery to realign my outside with my inside.

My happiness is dependent on all sorts of trivial things that help me be in synch with my ideal of who I am:

1) Eating healthy food.
2) Being free to walk around during the day rather than being in a cubicle.
3) Having a clean apartment. etc. etc.
4) Long list of simple things.

I approached my career with the exact same attitude: "If I can't be happy working in this cubicle, I'll never be happy working outside of the cubicle."

My logic was utterly flawed. I'm happy now that I've escaped the cubicle. It took an immense effort to achieve it. I thought I was being spoiled by "not wanting to work 9-5", that if my happiness depended on something so fleeting as "money" that my happiness would somehow be cheapened.

The reality is completely different from the anxiety I had leading up to my escape. It's absolutely impossible to describe how happy I am that I escaped my beige cage.

I think you've come to a foregone conclusion about how you'll feel when you've escaped your male prison, without having any clue what it's like actually be outside of your male prison.

It sounds like you've been "programmed" by some kind of television show depicting people who get cosmetic surgery as being "vain" (I've seen this stuff on MTV over the years) and you think that your happiness is simply some kind of vanity.

If you want to limit your future happiness by cheapening it before you've even experienced it, that's your business.

[person]

Originally Posted by Manomanman

My happiness is dependent on all sorts of trivial things that help me be in synch with my ideal of who I am:

1) Eating healthy food.
2) Being free to walk around during the day rather than being in a cubicle.
3) Having a clean apartment. etc. etc.
4) Long list of simple things.

I approached my career with the exact same attitude: "If I can't be happy working in this cubicle, I'll never be happy working outside of the cubicle."

My logic was utterly flawed. I'm happy now that I've escaped the cubicle. It took an immense effort to achieve it. I thought I was being spoiled by "not wanting to work 9-5", that if my happiness depended on something so fleeting as "money" that my happiness would somehow be cheapened.

The reality is completely different from the anxiety I had leading up to my escape. It's absolutely impossible to describe how happy I am that I escaped my beige cage.

I think you've come to a foregone conclusion about how you'll feel when you've escaped your male prison, without having any clue what it's like actually be outside of your male prison.

It sounds like you've been "programmed" by some kind of television show depicting people who get cosmetic surgery as being "vain" (I've seen this stuff on MTV over the years) and you think that your happiness is simply some kind of vanity.

If you want to limit your future happiness by cheapening it before you've even experienced it, that's your business.

Thank you for your post. This was also a quite helpful perspective. I suppose the happiness from our body is no different from the happiness from our environment.

To make a note, I haven't been programmed by tv. I don't view everyone or even most people that get cosmetic surgery as vain. If I've been programmed by anything, it's the variety of philosophies, including eastern religions/philosophies, that I've researched and have led me to try to avoid basing happiness on external things. I guess I'd like to believe that happiness rests in simplicity, something we all have innately, instead of requiring complex outside things (surgery being only one example, but the most applicable in my scenario).

[Manomanman]

Originally Posted by person

If I've been programmed by anything, it's the variety of philosophies, including eastern religions/philosophies, that I've researched and have led me to try to avoid basing happiness on external things. I guess I'd like to believe that happiness rests in simplicity, something we all have innately, instead of requiring complex outside things (surgery being only one example, but the most applicable in my scenario).

Happiness is both internal and external.

Internal: You have to like who you are and stuff like that.

External: If everything inside is aligned properly, then this should be reflected in the external environment you create.

If you have one but not the other, you don't have happiness. That's why I don't like a lot of PD that focuses heavily on what's going on inside, because what's going on outside has a MASSIVE impact on what's going on inside.

For example, a lot of people assume that being enlightened means you never display emotion, especially anger. But if you put yourself in a situation where you're not free to express your anger, you become frustrated and direct your anger inward.

If you're in a situation where you like who you are but you lack freedom, then your mind is always going to be focused on escape and it will be impossible for you to have external freedom.

When I escaped my beige cage, I finally got rid of the gnawing emotional pain that was purely external. I was always good-to-go on the inside.

I can't say the same thing for my coworkers still stuck in the rat race - if they escaped, they'd probably be unhappy no matter what because they are unable to take their freedom and cultivate the things they want out of life. They would simply incarcerate themselves in some other kind of situation that would take away the freedom they truly desired.

The point is that, if you have a very high level of clarity and can say, "This is what I want," that's WAY different than somebody who lacks internal congruence and has no idea what they want, so they look to the external to try and "buy" their happiness.

Long story short: External things will make you happy if they are the reflection of the internal things that make you happy.

[person]

Rei, I realized I missed some parts of your posts.

Originally Posted by rei

p.s. about the hair. have you considered growing it long and starting a collection of hats and bandanas and other items you could wear to cover the very top of your head? you could certainly find stylish options that would fit a variety of wardrobe choices. just something to think about. i've worn my hair boyishly short and lately it's quite long for spiritual reasons. i went through a hat phase and accumulated quite a collection. i would describe myself as an androgyne but it's more the spiritual androgyny and less about sexuality (technically attracted to both biological makeups), but i feel comfortable in my body even as i can behave in very masculine ways (such as spitting and whatnot)... so i can't quite relate, other than as a person who doesn't fit mainstream expectations around gender and sexuality. i'd say your experience is still a bit different, though. i never really wanted to be in a male form... i just oscillate between feeling male, feeling female, or feeling like both all at once.

I haven't considered the hat thing. I can't wear a hat at work, and I've never much liked hats anyway.

I have considered getting hair transplant surgery. It's an outpatient procedure where they take some hair follicles from part of the head that does not go bald and then plant them into the balding spots. It's permanent, but people only have a finite amount of donor hair available. My hairline is only mildly receded, and most of it occurred quickly when I was a late teenager and then stopped or slowed down. It would look terrible and unfeminine if I grew it out, but it is a fairly good head of hair for a man. If I get hair transplant surgery, I could fix the front and be able to grow my hair out, which I would love. But, most doctors are hesitant to reconstruct a hairline that is without any recession at all, since more hair will likely eventually be lost. (Most surgeons won't perform it on someone who has only my level of hair loss.) If I take hormones, and especially if I eventually become without my male genitals, then hair loss will stop completely and not be an issue, so if I get the front fixed I'll be forever with a full head of long hair. Getting a hair transplant is something I"m still looking into.

Originally Posted by rei

OP, have you thought about taking hormones to see if it will affect your physical form... almost like a preview of how it would be to get the reassignment procedure? i haven't looked into it much but based on what i have been exposed to i think hormones can be prescribed as a kind of compromise. or as a way to see if it would feel better to be more aligned with the opposite biological sex.

Taking hormones, from what I've researched, occurs before any surgery but after you've decided to switch. The hormones will bring about much of the things a female body has, including softer skin, less body hair, fat distribution to the right spots, and the growth of small to medium breasts. It will not affect voice or most facial hair, though.

If it wasn't for the breasts thing, I would definitely start taking them. I want breasts, but obviously only if I do switch, not as a preview. If I could just take the hormones for the other aspects, there'd be no question to it and I'd be on them already. So I will only take hormones if I do decide to switch for good.

[Marth]

Um man why think about it so much? Sexuality isnt your entire life. Why not focus on another aspect for a while, like one of your passions or hobbies. You have one of those yeah?

[person]

Originally Posted by Marth

Um man why think about it so much? Sexuality isnt your entire life. Why not focus on another aspect for a while, like one of your passions or hobbies. You have one of those yeah?

I wouldn't particularly say I have passions, but I do have some hobbies, and I do focus on those to keep myself busy, but in the long run it's empty. No relationship, ever, and no comfort, ever.

[annazee]

I tried to read all the answers but I unfortunately do not have enough time to read everything as the length of the other replies are too long. I apologize if there are any opinions that I might repeat.

I was a psych major in college. Being of such, I've had the pleasure of having so many opinions thrown out without a hint of judgment. What I will say is only within my opinion and in no way assuming, judging or anything that may be foul to you, to anyone or to my education. I personally think that gender has been a big issue or divide between not only interpersonal relationships but also the relationship you have with yourself. Many people have had this crisis of not knowing which whereof is more appealing or even worth it. Most don't find sense to the extent of just trying to cope with living just for the heck of living itself -- because you're already born in this world, you've really no choice but to think of purpose, or live on going with societies ways, or as is. If it's only technical terms like gender, then you must know that there isn't only male, female, bisexual, homosexual, asexual. There is also OS or object sexuality. I'm sure that the meaning of male, female, bisexual, homosexual and asexual are already clear. Although asexual might be a thought of most as there is a point where no attraction sexually towards male nor female is said, in object sexuality, people are not attracted in any sexual manner to either male, female, bisexual or homosexual. They tend to be more attracted to inanimate objects which most of them consider have no gender at all. Others consider their intimacy to the object as not physical but in only a sense of connection. On the other hand classifying yourself as any of these genders would be a difficult choice as even though you are born of a particular kind, the physical, mental, and emotional state can all be different. Why not try to live as is and find some light on any or maybe other situations. I know that the problem is gender but along with it comes other things that might bring you even deeper onto that world of nothingness where there is just no meaning to be found any longer. Gender may be a big part of yourself, however, your relationship towards your own self is bigger. If you try to live as with your knowledge or as how society acts and in such a way that there must be something particular in the long array of choices, you may not find the answer you are looking for. Why not try to make your own? Away from the ideas of gender. In gender and identity, identity comes first, if you are not comfortable with yourself because you over power your mind with thoughts of your gender then the answer is far from revealing itself. You are far from revealing who you truly are. Why not try to identify yourself away from this crisis?..What are you? Who are you to your family? Who are you to your friends? Who are you to yourself? Ask yourself questions from other things first away from your physical appearance. After each of them, find every core. Slowly your problem will reveal the rightful answer. I would advice to keep yourself away from the thought of failure and try to turn them into your success. It's always a beginning. If you work your way from the inside out, problems smaller and aside from this, you will slowly find a lightness in life until the answer to this huge question/confusion reveals itself to you. I hope this helps even on little ways.

[anniecooper]

WPATH