tired of hurting over this

[rei]

so, i very much see myself as equal to everyone else. i like to think the way i value everyone as an equal is conveyed in my communication. i don't specifically manufacture my communications to convey this perspective, but i have a pretty strong sense that it is naturally reflected in how i speak to people.

but sometimes i get feedback that says a person believes i think i'm better than them. this hurts me so very deeply, i can't even explain how much it hurts. because it's simply not true.

i'm not sure what to do about this... i don't think it's a trigger of past stuff, and i also know if someone else is responding from a place of insecurity, that is about them and not about me. but i still deeply hurt when this happens, even if i know i am accurately conveying the sense of being an equal.

if it felt like a trigger i would be able to explore it and process it so it loses its charge. last night i was speaking about this to my boyfriend and in his sweet attempt to be helpful, he began making jokes about me thinking i'm superior. it stung... i explained this and he said he was trying to desensitize me to the situation. i know he had positive intentions, but i somehow found a way to express that i knew he wanted to be helpful but i didn't think it was helping. it just felt like poking a sore spot in a way that wasn't desensitizing me at all because each joke felt just as abysmally painful. thankfully, he listened. he also moved into discussing power and how it's just a fact of life that folks will be at different levels, but that was a more intellectual frame (also a frame that speaks to a 3d understanding, when i know there are other ways to be as a community), and i must commend him for his efforts. i'm not upset with him, i understand the logic he was using. normally that idea to desensitize a perfectly effective approach, too.

there is just something, i dunno, unique about this dynamic. it doesn't feel like a trigger or a mirroring. it doesn't feel like a button really. it frustrates me that others draw this conclusion when it isn't accurate on any level from my perspective, and even if it's fueled by insecurity i still hurt so deeply over it. my access to great depths of emotion may come into play here, because it doesn't feel like a little sting, it feels huge.

i know that might make it sound like a trigger, and i'm not sure how i can explain it but the way this response feels is different from how every trigger feels/has felt. it just feels like it hurts me at my very core, smack in the middle of my heart-soul, and triggers for me have always felt painful more to the mind or the surface self - not touching the very core like this. that is the best way i can think to explain the difference. even that, i'm not sure i did a good job, but my gut says very clearly that this isn't a trigger/mirror/button thing, it's something else.

(forgive the mystical connotations...) my awareness came here from a different realm, yes, there is something like a hierarchy there but it works very differently. it doesn't involve this better-than/less-than crap (yes, it's crap!), part of me remembers how it worked there. maybe this dynamic stings so much because i know a different type of hierarchy based in loving equality is totally possible - maybe the pain i feel here is pain of my understanding clashing with a more 3d understanding... it hurts, though.

and i don't know how i could become more effective at communicating the sense of valuing everyone. or, i can only think of ways to do that which would feel very manufactured and not being my truest self in every moment. most people don't think i act superior, which tells me it's not a universal reaction. it is just hard to feel that sting when someone does think this way, and since it doesn't feel like a standard trigger i am not sure how to approach it, if there is even anything to do differently. maybe it's less about changing the way i express myself and more finding a way to not feel such a depth of pain when this happens... i don't know.

if you have ideas, i would appreciate hearing them

[Piercetheveil]

Feedback in face to face communication or from the net/phone? From people that know you well or from casual relationships?

[Angela]

Originally Posted by rei

but sometimes i get feedback that says a person believes i think i'm better than them. this hurts me so very deeply, i can't even explain how much it hurts. because it's simply not true.

You're a green orangutan with a smelly pair of tentacles coming out of your forehead.

That's simply not true, is it? Does that hurt you very deeply?

What's the difference between being told that you're a green orangutan with smelly tentacles, and being told that you believe you're better than others? This is not a rhetorical question. I'd really like to invite you to distinguish the difference between these two simply-not-true statements, and what each of them means about you - and what purpose any pain you feel over either of them serves. (If there's pain, there is a purpose to it.)

[Lauxa]

Originally Posted by Angela

What's the difference between being told that you're a green orangutan with smelly tentacles, and being told that you believe you're better than others?

Another person believes the other thing.

Well, that's one difference.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Lauxa

Another person believes the other thing.

Well, that's one difference.

My question was for directed at rei, specifically, Lauxa- what the personal meanings she makes about each are. I'm not objecting to you answering here, just looking for her particular answer (like I would in dream interpretation.)

[rei]

Originally Posted by Piercetheveil

Feedback in face to face communication or from the net/phone? From people that know you well or from casual relationships?

speaking more from non-face-to-face. no one who really knows me through multiple in-person encounters ever says this. sometimes it appears to interfere with getting to really know me, though. or, it might, i guess. and i know if it's not happening in closer connections that means there's even less reason to care, but my heart still responds that way. the way my heart responds is as it is, and painful as it is, aside from considering the apparent way this perception has led to me getting (verbally) attacked a couple times.

Originally Posted by Angela

You're a green orangutan with a smelly pair of tentacles coming out of your forehead.

That's simply not true, is it? Does that hurt you very deeply?

What's the difference between being told that you're a green orangutan with smelly tentacles, and being told that you believe you're better than others? This is not a rhetorical question. I'd really like to invite you to distinguish the difference between these two simply-not-true statements, and what each of them means about you - and what purpose any pain you feel over either of them serves. (If there's pain, there is a purpose to it.)

neither is true, but the second one reveals levels of pain and insecurity in others and clashes with the way i know things can be. for someone to call me the former, it doesn't seem to be motivated by pain, and it doesn't clash with my values of equality and respect. the first one doesn't bump up against my conscious memory of a situation where hierarchy has nothing to do with dignity and worth.

i don't know how to explain it... pretty much every trigger i can think of felt like it was sticking to a past experience in my memory, and that was what led to the trigger response. this experience goes all the way past all my memories from this lifetime and stings the very core of me. it hurts even though i know it isn't true, because it brings in a 3d perspective when i'm living from a different one.

[Angela]

In plain English, you hurt because they hurt (or are insecure) believing this untrue thing about you?

[rei]

Originally Posted by Angela

In plain English, you hurt because they hurt (or are insecure) believing this untrue thing about you?

well, that's part of it. the other part of it is a clash in perspectives, the one they are using is one i discarded some time ago if i ever even used it. i don't think i ever did. i just don't work from a better/less-than way of being or thinking, so when this happens it hurts because they hurt and because the perspective is so different and has a heaviness i'm just not used to.

[Cado]

So where's the problem? Not everyone is going to see you as you are. Allowing pain into the equation isn't going to make "what could be" into a reality any quicker. This is another case where a bit of acceptance goes a long way.

[spirit4711]

Originally Posted by rei

...
but sometimes i get feedback that says a person believes i think i'm better than them. this hurts me so very deeply, i can't even explain how much it hurts. because it's simply not true.

i'm not sure what to do about this... i don't think it's a trigger of past stuff, and i also know if someone else is responding from a place of insecurity, that is about them and not about me. but i still deeply hurt when this happens, even if i know i am accurately conveying the sense of being an equal.
...

if you have ideas, i would appreciate hearing them

I always have ideas, you know me by now.

The first thing that comes up for me:

How come you so desperately want not to be (seen as) better than someone else? What's the value in that?

Another thing: if one person gives that feedback, it may be true or not. If one hundred people would gave the same feedback, chances are large that you indeed display that behaviour. Why focus on the feedback of one (or few) people?

Personally I don't have any problem in believing I'm better than other people in some ways, and in other ways they are better than me. Not only in skills, but also on a moral level. If others are better than me I can admire them, and let myself be inspired. If I am better than others, I may be an example to them. Or not. Up to them.

This whole equality thing is way overrated. We're neve equal, nor is there value in us all being equal.

[rei]

Originally Posted by Illustro Cado

So where's the problem? Not everyone is going to see you as you are. Allowing pain into the equation isn't going to make "what could be" into a reality any quicker. This is another case where a bit of acceptance goes a long way.

i am accepting - the pain. if i didn't, i would be resisting my natural response to this. i don't experience the pain to rush the ideal, it is more a side effect of seeing that the ideal is still being realized.

i do see your point, though. i can accept that others see me this way regardless of how it seems to me, that doesn't really make it hurt any less though. i'm not really trying to change how i come across because this is the exception, and my own preference to be my authentic self is still important to me. i would like to not feel such a sting when this happens, but if intuition says this isn't really a trigger then i'm not sure how to approach the sting aspect.

Originally Posted by spirit4711

I always have ideas, you know me by now.

The first thing that comes up for me:

How come you so desperately want not to be (seen as) better than someone else? What's the value in that?

i don't think there is desperation here. it is more exasperation and a sense of hurt. perhaps you see it as more extreme than it is for me because i care about how others are affected by me and you see that as approval-seeking most of the time

Originally Posted by spirit4711

Another thing: if one person gives that feedback, it may be true or not. If one hundred people would gave the same feedback, chances are large that you indeed display that behaviour. Why focus on the feedback of one (or few) people?

i end up focusing on it because it's painful when this happens. i suppose i care too much about the entire world (self and other beings) because i haven't mastered the ability to let something just roll off me when it stings this much. of course, i think it's impossible to care too much, but the level of care i feel does make it harder to just release something that stings in part because it's a sign of someone else's pain. it also stings because it is a reminder of the better/less-than bull that has been spun and disseminated in this reality. that's a distortion of the potential for a different understanding that causes less pain.

Originally Posted by spirit4711

Personally I don't have any problem in believing I'm better than other people in some ways, and in other ways they are better than me. Not only in skills, but also on a moral level. If others are better than me I can admire them, and let myself be inspired. If I am better than others, I may be an example to them. Or not. Up to them.

This whole equality thing is way overrated. We're neve equal, nor is there value in us all being equal.

plenty of folks see it as you do. i don't. i think your perspective is also about the surface level... mine is more about the core self, not the personality or the material successes. even when we factor in personality and successes or lack thereof, the differences all cancel each other out in my eyes. i don't assume i'm better or worse because i think of the entire person, not any single area.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by rei

well, that's part of it. the other part of it is a clash in perspectives, the one they are using is one i discarded some time ago if i ever even used it. i don't think i ever did. i just don't work from a better/less-than way of being or thinking, so when this happens it hurts because they hurt and because the perspective is so different and has a heaviness i'm just not used to.

So what if there's a clash of perspective? Why can't each of you use the perspective of your own choice -- how does one perspective "hurt" the other? Why do you feel deep soul-hurt because of another person's choice of a different or heavy perspective? What does their choice MEAN about you that it results in your feeling hurt? *Should* they not use the perspective they are using?

I believe that you do believe you are superior to other people in some ways: I think you think you're smarter, more sensitive, and more insightful than many or most people. I happen to believe that about you, too. I don't think that you believe that these superior aspects make you a superior human being, one of more inherent worth or value than others. But I recognize that those particular aspects are often the centers of deep identity-level limiting belief ("I'm worthless; "I'm stupid;" I'm not good enough;" "I'm alone.") and when your communication comes across as superiority in that aspect, the effect is that others get their buttons pushed. And they may very well react all over you.

And that's a good thing. When people's identity-level buttons get pushed, they are being given the opportunity to examine and disconnect their habitual negative thought patterns. They may do it right then and there, or it may be later, or they may never take the opportunity. You don't get to choose; they do.

If you feel bad in reaction to their bad feeling - and if your response is to feel hurt every time someone tells you you think you're superior, then it IS a trigger -- regardless of whether it began in your childhood, a past life, or was implanted by an alien life form, and whether it's a shallow twinge or a deep soul-pain -- if you always react the same way to the same stimulus, it's a button that can be pushed, a trigger that can be pulled.

You're tired of the hurting -- tired enough to try something else? Like what?

[Piercetheveil]

Originally Posted by rei

and i know if it's not happening in closer connections that means there's even less reason to care,a

I dunno about that.

It does help to isolate it though. I figured Angela's question woulda spiraled to a solution more quickly. Perhaps a different angle.

Have you looked at the correlation between the criticism and the threads/communication where the interaction took place? What if you could split the person that posts here with who does the typing. Is there anything to extract there?

I am feeling angela here and where there is pain there is something.

For some reason it being empathic pain does not resonate as the complete picture.

You want this thread to be about you or later on you want me to show a "PTV" example of how I went through somethin like this?

[rei]

Originally Posted by Angela

So what if there's a clash of perspective? Why can't each of you use the perspective of your own choice -- how does one perspective "hurt" the other? Why do you feel deep soul-hurt because of another person's choice of a different or heavy perspective? What does their choice MEAN about you that it results in your feeling hurt? *Should* they not use the perspective they are using?

I believe that you do believe you are superior to other people in some ways: I think you think you're smarter, more sensitive, and more insightful than many or most people. I happen to believe that about you, too. I don't think that you believe that these superior aspects make you a superior human being, one of more inherent worth or value than others. But I recognize that those particular aspects are often the centers of deep identity-level limiting belief ("I'm worthless; "I'm stupid;" I'm not good enough;" "I'm alone.") and when your communication comes across as superiority in that aspect, the effect is that others get their buttons pushed. And they may very well react all over you.

And that's a good thing. When people's identity-level buttons get pushed, they are being given the opportunity to examine and disconnect their habitual negative thought patterns. They may do it right then and there, or it may be later, or they may never take the opportunity. You don't get to choose; they do.

If you feel bad in reaction to their bad feeling - and if your response is to feel hurt every time someone tells you you think you're superior, then it IS a trigger -- regardless of whether it began in your childhood, a past life, or was implanted by an alien life form, and whether it's a shallow twinge or a deep soul-pain -- if you always react the same way to the same stimulus, it's a button that can be pushed, a trigger that can be pulled.

You're tired of the hurting -- tired enough to try something else? Like what?

hehe... well, it truly wasn't about my individual-self buttons. but now that you are taking it in this direction my buttons have been pushed. rather than a deep sting, these are a dull heavy feeling. it is an opportunity, though. even if it really feels and my gut says this isn't the stuff that motivated this thread.

oh, the difference in perspectives... yes they have a right to theirs and yes at the level of interpersonal dynamics it is fine if the perspectives clash. the choice doesn't mean anything about me, personally. it hurts because it speaks to dimensional levels, how much ... eh... spiritual progress is involved, and where each of the players are at in that respect (independent of all labels we might assign to such a thing). i hesitate to discuss it that way because, again, i feel like others will take it in a way i don't intend. in the situation that prompted this thread, it hurts because i'm sort of a representative for a more lovingly equal consensus reality and it hurts to feel just how much pain/suffering is still motivating interactions, serving as an anchor to a consensus reality that is being dismantled from behind the scenes (through permission in some form from all). it's mainly the metaphysical level stuff that comes into those situations.

as i said to spirit, i think all the ways we express our strengths cancel each other out. i don't assume i'm superior because i know there are sides to that person, and strengths, that outshine my own competence. the result of this is being equals. i don't think in terms of superior and inferior, either. i think in terms of strengths. my insight is a strength, but i don't consider it a source of superiority in terms of skills or personal level.

i am trying to keep these two issues separate for the purpose of discussion... i'm still wholly unconvinced that the issue i started the thread about is the same as the stuff that came up reading your post. and, intuition is pretty clear in saying it's not the same thing. if desensitization doesn't seem to work and if i don't really see the value in changing my self-expression, i am open to ideas on how i might not feel such a deep sting when this happens. since it is a side effect of metaphysical processes that are much bigger than just-me, i'm not even sure the standard techniques will have the same effectiveness. it may not even be "my" pain when this sting happens. it may be a message that comes from something else. regardless, now that my other stuff has come up i'm not thinking as clearly about it.

as for my other stuff, for now i'm going to sit with it and ask what it's teaching me from a place of genuine openness. thanks for the help...

[rei]

Originally Posted by Piercetheveil

Have you looked at the correlation between the criticism and the threads/communication where the interaction took place? What if you could split the person that posts here with who does the typing. Is there anything to extract there?

i am not sure i understand what you mean here. you mean that whole "who they are talking to - i am not that" idea? well, like i have been trying to explain - referencing the reason for the thread, not what got stirred up a moment ago (that i am gently working with right now), i am seeing it doesn't sting because of anything personal really. it stings more because of the metaphysical subtext that motivates such a statement, and the disharmony that happens when the two different metaphysical, uh, environments meet each other. if we dig deeper we make connections to personal level stuff, but the sting that happens in those situations is beyond personal and the connections that are made simply add to the variety and flavors of pain i end up experiencing - i think if it were personal, making those connections would just intensify what i was feeling already, not add another layer of different flavored/textured pain to it. anyone got any good transpersonal psychology methods/exercises i could work with for the threadstarting situation?

oh, so my point there is i dunno how well the 'i am not that' idea will work for the stinging stuff, if it isn't stinging little/individual-me anyway. but maybe that isn't what you were getting at. the situation often happens in metaphysically-themed conversations, which makes it that much harder to accept that it is a sting due to a metaphysical situation.

OH. it stings because it transmits a feeling of division when i'm coming from a place of unity and representing that whole deal as well. (the representing is where the not-really-personal part comes in.) unity by choice, of course. that feels like the why but still open to what i might do about it.

Originally Posted by Piercetheveil

For some reason it being empathic pain does not resonate as the complete picture.

You want this thread to be about you or later on you want me to show a "PTV" example of how I went through somethin like this?

feel free to share your own experience here. gonna spend some time listening to what my self says it needs but i'll be back to check responses later. thanks for the support

@Angela: actually, i haven't felt this every single time someone says they think i think i'm superior. i don't know if i could articulate what makes a difference, but it hasn't had a sting every time. probably only a sting when it comes to the metaphysical stuff.

[themaster]

Originally Posted by rei

if you have ideas, i would appreciate hearing them

I only have one.. Don't care what other people think!

Make a note.. I have never said this too you.. only reflected the ideas stated via "others" but yah when thinking about it.. I kind of see it.. you remind me a bit of a "know-it-all" and a "busy body" kind of person that waves there finger back in forth in a scolding kind of action..

I think the only way to solve this journey is too look within.. I don't think any external validation here will fix things.. (but it might)

The thing about "know-it-all’s" and "busy body's" that I've known is if you examine their lives.. you find their hypocrites And so I'm saying they don't practice the values they teach.. I would only suggest to you rei.. that if you feel negative at all.. you should really examine that issue and find the belief as to why..

I would tell you to.. "Never be ashamed of who you are!" "But don't be afraid to look at yourself in a neutral or loving way!"

My understanding is all our negative hang-ups here.. have to do with ourselves.. it's never about others.. if you don't share that idea.. could make it difficult for you..

Originally Posted by rei

i hesitate to discuss it that way because, again, i feel like others will take it in a way i don't intend..

You ever notice that I talk about everything and anything??

I talk about advanced subjects that may go WAY, WAY over the average reader on this forums head.. but unlike you I don't shy away from it.. I consider that exploring more of myself.. I consider that giving the reader a chance to play catch up..

I was really surprised one day.. when me and ALG were having a conversation with someone And ALG said "You don't want to do that.. just tell them everything" you want to teach loa in small pieces or they'll invalidate it..

You know what I said to ALG..?? I don't teach that way.. I push the limit every time.. I talk about everything all the time

I will push the limit.. because there are no limits.. those our illusions.. I suggest you be open and honest about who you are and delve into the subjects you keep resisting REI.. in there is expansion and only more of you!

(from he who shall be ignored )

[rei]

thank you, themaster i don't have much to say specifically about your response, as i'm in an entirely different place i was in before but i appreciate the response anyway

update: i journaled about this and invited my guide team to put me in a trance and reprogram my unconscious mind. i wrote out the beliefs and what i wanted and asked that the intention be considered clear enough, and that i trusted them to bring me through the process in the way that will be most effective.

when i asked and confirmed this was complete, i also asked them to dig into every layer of my bodies and minds (minds meaning conscious, subconscious and unconscious) to collect all the pain and heaviness associated with the emotional response pattern triggered by the concept of "abandonment." i added that i didn't feel at this point it served my highest good to walk around with it.

and now... this is funny... before, when i thought the word "abandonment" i felt a noticeable, intense drop in my lightness. it felt very heavy and yucky to focus consciously on that concept. and now, if i think that word... abandonment... i actually feel a pleasant floaty feeling

my rational mind is a little surprised it was this simple but my feeling self, which is a greater part of me, couldn't be happier!!!

thanks to everyone for your helpfulness... i'm hearing yes, the sting response is something else, but i will figure out how to deal with it in a constructive way. still feeling like some techniques from transpersonal psychology might be helpful - i studied that field before but i wasn't really here when i studied it so i don't remember much. so if anyone here is familiar with transpersonal psychology or has links to resources on that topic, i'm interested and will probably do a bit of my own research later.

teehee... it is so strange to feel BETTER when i think of the word 'abandonment' ah, wave of relief

love to all of you, and special thanks to Angela for gently pushing those buttons, and for your patience in allowing me to make my own choices about my readiness

[Cochonette]

rei, I hope I am not one of the people who triggered these feelings, but if so, I have never thought you think you're better than me. I have a tendency, actually, to be afraid that people do think they're better than me, or at least to be afraid that they don't think much of me. Mostly it's with acquaintances... I think the people I am most afraid of may actually be the people I should be least afraid of... who I think if I got to know them, they would be very sweet. But the thing is, I feel like I could never get to know them because our personalities aren't conducive to it... we just would never have any long conversations. But I have had the opportunity to read a lot of your words, and you seem to be one of the more sensitive people on this board... so I haven't the slightest thought that you have looked down upon me.

[rei]

Originally Posted by Cochonette

rei, I hope I am not one of the people who triggered these feelings, but if so, I have never thought you think you're better than me. I have a tendency, actually, to be afraid that people do think they're better than me, or at least to be afraid that they don't think much of me. Mostly it's with acquaintances... I think the people I am most afraid of may actually be the people I should be least afraid of... who I think if I got to know them, they would be very sweet. But the thing is, I feel like I could never get to know them because our personalities aren't conducive to it... we just would never have any long conversations. But I have had the opportunity to read a lot of your words, and you seem to be one of the more sensitive people on this board... so I haven't the slightest thought that you have looked down upon me.

ah, thanks for this reassurance and clarification, Cochonette no, i did not get that impression from you, and it only has ever come up when it was directly communicated to me. i don't ever just guess or assume people feel that way, it's not something that enters my mind unless they express it to me. i used to jump to conclusions like that, but i made myself a little crazy trying to piece together little bitty clues and guess what others though about. now it's just more comfortable to do my thing and allow others to communicate directly if something is on their mind.

having said that, i do appreciate your interest in making your impressions clear, and i hope you may have more opportunities to get to know these acquaintances that you become interested in knowing better

[Cochonette]

I'm glad you don't assume what people think of you because that's exactly my problem! Well, I don't necessarily assume what other people think of me, but I certainly guess too much! But... actually, isn't it kind of the same thing? I mean, you say you used to guess what people thought of you, which is exactly what I do... now that I think about it, I am also afraid of the same thing you are. I am afraid people will think of me as arrogant (because I used to be rather arrogant) and therefore think less of me. And that is why it is the people who seem like they would be sweet that I am most afraid of... like one of the students in my seminar class, who I've known outside of class since I first got to college... in class the professor asked us about something we disliked... mine was television, hers was "condescension."

Well, I guess my fear is slightly different from yours, but similar. You didn't say you were afraid that people would think less of you, in general, which I am.

[rei]

Originally Posted by Cochonette

I'm glad you don't assume what people think of you because that's exactly my problem! Well, I don't necessarily assume what other people think of me, but I certainly guess too much! But... actually, isn't it kind of the same thing? I mean, you say you used to guess what people thought of you, which is exactly what I do... now that I think about it, I am also afraid of the same thing you are. I am afraid people will think of me as arrogant (because I used to be rather arrogant) and therefore think less of me. And that is why it is the people who seem like they would be sweet that I am most afraid of... like one of the students in my seminar class, who I've known outside of class since I first got to college... in class the professor asked us about something we disliked... mine was television, hers was "condescension."

Well, I guess my fear is slightly different from yours, but similar. You didn't say you were afraid that people would think less of you, in general, which I am.

it helps to know others can relate to what i was speaking of. for me, it was less worrying that others think i see myself as above them and more how it stings me deeply if i find out they feel that way. most people are too worried about how they come across to others to spend much time thinking about me

and i will continue being me either way, that's really all any of us can do. if we choose, we can dissolve the stuff we may have added on top of who we already were. thank you for your kind support

[Angela]

Originally Posted by rei

love to all of you, and special thanks to Angela for gently pushing those buttons, and for your patience in allowing me to make my own choices about my readiness

You're welcome, and just so you know, this:

i'm sort of a representative for a more lovingly equal consensus reality and it hurts to feel just how much pain/suffering is still motivating interactions, serving as an anchor to a consensus reality that is being dismantled from behind the scenes (through permission in some form from all). it's mainly the metaphysical level stuff that comes into those situations.

....reminded me of this:



(I am Ginger. )

[rei]

ah, Angela, i guess that word "consensus" did it huh? or is this how you responded to my shamanic role thread too? understandable if you consider yourself an atheist of some sort, but it isn't about any paternalistic supreme creator vibe... and it doesn't negate individuality, just a bit of a collective thing going on too. if you don't think/feel we're all connected, then yeah i could be sounding incoherent to you

but i certainly had no intention of communicating to you like a dog! (although, you're in good company, since i often prefer dogs to people! )

[themaster]

I'm glad you got it mostly worked out

[rei]

Originally Posted by themaster

I'm glad you got it mostly worked out

thanks! technically, the reason for starting the thread may be there, but thanks to Angela's prodding i ended up clearing a massive layer of stuff

researching transpersonal stuff right now, since i feel like there is something in that direction that i can apply to the response that prompted this thread. found a cool projective technique called a Watchword Test.

[spirit4711]

Originally Posted by rei

i don't think there is desperation here. it is more exasperation and a sense of hurt. perhaps you see it as more extreme than it is for me because i care about how others are affected by me and you see that as approval-seeking most of the time

OK skip the word desperately from my previous post. What would your answer be then?

i end up focusing on it because it's painful when this happens. i suppose i care too much about the entire world (self and other beings) because i haven't mastered the ability to let something just roll off me when it stings this much. of course, i think it's impossible to care too much, but the level of care i feel does make it harder to just release something that stings in part because it's a sign of someone else's pain. it also stings because it is a reminder of the better/less-than bull that has been spun and disseminated in this reality. that's a distortion of the potential for a different understanding that causes less pain.

I understand what you say but do not see how it is related to the feedback of you presenting yourself as better than others? How come that feedback hurts you?

plenty of folks see it as you do. i don't. i think your perspective is also about the surface level... mine is more about the core self, not the personality or the material successes. even when we factor in personality and successes or lack thereof, the differences all cancel each other out in my eyes.

I don't understand what you mean by 'the surface level' here.

i don't assume i'm better or worse because i think of the entire person, not any single area.

Why not? What if you really are better than someone else? Would that be so bad? If so, in what way?

[brendannz]

Originally Posted by rei

but sometimes i get feedback that says a person believes i think i'm better than them. this hurts me so very deeply, i can't even explain how much it hurts. because it's simply not true.

This one is quite hard to understand from knowing you online. Do you give the impression that you think you know everything to others perhaps? (I think I might do this at times)

[blossom]

Being 'better than' is something we all think deep down, I think, though it is rarely admitted to...it's also one of the most socially unacceptable things to think and the one thing most people are on the lookout for in others, ready to pounce on them incase they decide to outshine them in some ways.

I agree with Spirit here...I am better than someone else at certain things, and they are better than me at something else. It's only the judgement we place on this aspect of ourselves that makes it an unpleasant thing...other peoples judgements shouldn't really matter if you think about it in a different way and don't judge yourself for it.

If there wasn't some truth to it, it wouldn't upset you so much. We only get upset by things that hold some truth for us...that's indicated by the buttons it presses in us. If the pain you are feeling is due to the misunderstanding that you feel is taking place, then that's different I suppose.

Maybe it hurts you because you know deep down that you are better than others in certain ways, and this conflicts with how you see yourself and your values of wanting to be equal to everyone else? Just a theory...

This is something I struggled with years ago myself. Now I just accept that we all have parts of us that think we are superior in some way, and inferior in other ways. There's only a problem when we judge this as 'bad'.

If other people think this of you, and you don't think it's true, then why do you let it upset you?
The people who mean something to you know you better, and they are the only ones whose oppinions of you should matter...and even then, only your oppinion of yourself really matters.

[rei]

Originally Posted by spirit4711

OK skip the word desperately from my previous post. What would your answer be then?

I understand what you say but do not see how it is related to the feedback of you presenting yourself as better than others? How come that feedback hurts you?

I don't understand what you mean by 'the surface level' here.

Why not? What if you really are better than someone else? Would that be so bad? If so, in what way?

it is less that i am working to be seen as an equal and more that i just feel that way. that is how i feel when i interact, but then when this happens i get confused and wonder why my perception of equality wasn't getting across.

the feedback hurts the very core of me, i wish i could explain it better. it doesn't hurt my personality, it hurts something else. and that's why i am bringing up the better-than/less-than bull - this situation hurts some deep infinite part of me because it brings up that dynamic when i'm living from a different one.

i know some folks here won't understand or believe this, but my intuition says this is less a personal thing and more a transpersonal thing. it just feels personal because i'm in an individual form. it's like that experience hurts the entire consciousness that i'm aligned with.

surface level is like personality, the stuff we see in the material world. traits, qualities, evidence of goals achieved, stuff like that. pretty much all the stuff that's ultimately temporary.

from my perspective it's impossible to be better than someone else. we're all one so we're all on the same level. as far as skills and talents go, i might be more skilled in some area but that doesn't make me better. where i'm from, this distinction is better understood or practiced.

Originally Posted by brendannz

This one is quite hard to understand from knowing you online. Do you give the impression that you think you know everything to others perhaps? (I think I might do this at times)

thanks, Brendan. i suppose that might happen sometimes, but of course i don't think i know everything.

Originally Posted by blossom

If there wasn't some truth to it, it wouldn't upset you so much. We only get upset by things that hold some truth for us...that's indicated by the buttons it presses in us. If the pain you are feeling is due to the misunderstanding that you feel is taking place, then that's different I suppose.

thanks, blossom. responding to the whole post, just didn't quote the whole thing. as i have been trying to explain, and not doing a very good job of it, this doesn't feel like the typical trigger where it hurts because we see truth to it or it hurts because it calls up past pain. it's more like it hurts the part of me connected to another dimensional level, and i happen to feel it because i'm in tune with that part of me. i know this may sound like i'm resisting or rationalizing but my intuition serves me well.

if other people think this and i don't think it's true then why let it upset me? well, it isn't little-me feeling upset about it. the information is received as feedback for a deeper part of me, and that part of me feels hurt by it. i guess to that deeper place it's evidence of a way of seeing things that has led to a lot of pain over many years. or evidence of an understanding that this deeper place has been working on dissolving.

i think your response here would be understandable to consider if this felt like the typical triggering experience. wish i could explain better, but it's like it's not even really me that hurts when this happens. not little me and not my mind. little me and my mind just notice the way this other part of me is affected by it. i wish i could do a better job describing what i mean there.

i think feeling like transpersonal psychology resources will help speaks to that point though. the part that feels that hurt is beyond the personal, and i'm just at a point on my path to feel such a thing. but that may mean i have to figure out a way to address it myself since i haven't really seen any material or methods for addressing something like this. all the stuff i have come across has been to help with a typical trigger experience. but thanks to everyone for your support and feedback.

[fishbelowtheice]

Originally Posted by rei

so, i very much see myself as equal to everyone else. i like to think the way i value everyone as an equal is conveyed in my communication. i don't specifically manufacture my communications to convey this perspective, but i have a pretty strong sense that it is naturally reflected in how i speak to people.

but sometimes i get feedback that says a person believes i think i'm better than them. this hurts me so very deeply, i can't even explain how much it hurts. because it's simply not true.

Quoting Harvard Professor Chris Argyris on the subject of
our inauthenticity:

“Put simply, people consistently act inconsistently, unaware of the contradiction between their espoused theory and their theory-in-use,
between the way they think they are acting, and the way they really act.”

Harvard Business Review,
"Teaching Smart People How to Learn“ (1991, pp. 99-109)



rei, I would suggest that you may have a blind spot in some way you be that people are reacting to.