Reading Minds!

[Penelopi]

hello again

I just need an opinion about my situation because I'm kind of getting crazy.
A little info about me, i am a confident person (well i think i am. haha), i'm not a worrying type, I am always sure of myself and knows what to do in certain situations, not until college.

I don't know if it has something to do with discovering some guys likes me and they are always around me, and I dunno how to interpret that. I will give a certain scenario, for example, I was sitting and my guy classmates suddenly surrounded me, I don't put malice in it. I am actually one of the boys so I'm not assuming anything & also that's probably the reason they feel comfortable around me because they know that I'm not the girly girl and we will get along w/c is alright with me. But the thing is I suddenly feel weird like I feel like I'm being too comfortable and I feel like I'm on the "spotlight" (it started when I learned that those guys like me) and I'm starting to think like what if they don't think or see things the way like I do, what if I am already being taken advantage of and I'm not aware because I'm "too trusting"? I just became really uncomfortable and unsure of myself, and all I can think of is because I don't know what they think of me not in a way like, "do they think I'm beautiful?" "do they find me hot?" more like I don't know if I should trust them because I don't know their intentions. I would like to think its no big deal, if they like me they like me, that's it so there's no reason to feel weird, but like I don't know if they respect me or they are just testing me because im kind of a tomboy? Im actually thinking that I shouldn't doubt myself but I just can't shake the feeling..I don't know how to look at this kind of situation. and these are actually good looking and high class guys, i dunno if this has something to do with it. I'm starting to think that I'm asexual. Oh my lord... I don't know what to think.

I guess I'm really not that confident after all. But I'm good with socializing and all that I'm not shy type at all. I know its kind of stupid but I just need other perspective. Thankyou!!

[The Cloud]

First off, I can almost guarantee that most (or all) of your guy friends have some sexual interest in you. That doesn't necessarily mean that their only intention is to sleep with you, though. In fact, that might not be their intention at all, but rather just something they'd be open to. I'm a guy, and while I do have an attractive female friend that I've no interest in sleeping with, she's definitely the exception and not the rule.

The real question isn't whether they'd sleep with you or not, though. The question that you're probably afraid of is if you would sleep with them. That's what it seems to me, at least. You're afraid that you'll give in to them, and they'll take advantage of you, and then you'll be a slut. At least that's the only trust issue I can imagine arising, that they will ruin your reputation. So you're not afraid of trusting them, you're afraid to trust yourself not to be a promiscuous woman. You're afraid of even the potential of them thinking you're leading them on a path you don't really want to go down.

I don't know what you can do about this situation, since there isn't a right answer that solves everything. Maybe your biggest mistake is thinking that there is a right answer.

[Penelopi]

Originally Posted by The Cloud

In fact, that might not be their intention at all, but rather just something they'd be open to. I'm a guy, and while I do have an attractive female friend that I've no interest in sleeping with, she's definitely the exception and not the rule.

The real question isn't whether they'd sleep with you or not, though. The question that you're probably afraid of is if you would sleep with them. That's what it seems to me, at least. You're afraid that you'll give in to them, and they'll take advantage of you, and then you'll be a slut. At least that's the only trust issue I can imagine arising, that they will ruin your reputation.

I agree it might not be their intention because I honestly think that they don't think of me that way, well some probably but I still wanna trust that they won't take advantage and it won't get in the way of being friends with them. It never occur to me to sleep with these guys AT ALL. But then yeah your correct I don't trust myself with them because I'm afraid I will turn into a slut. haha. But I'm thinking that I shouldn't worry because if I have a self-control then that wouldn't happen, right? But huwhy... I don't get this, I feel like I shouldn't even be worrying about this. Hmmm.. thanks btw

[The Cloud]

Originally Posted by Penelopi

But I'm thinking that I shouldn't worry because if I have a self-control then that wouldn't happen, right? But huwhy... I don't get this, I feel like I shouldn't even be worrying about this. Hmmm.. thanks btw

It's self-control that has you feeling all screwed up in the first place . Why would you need self-control if there was nothing to worry about? And you are right, there is nothing to worry about and you don't have to put yourself through this, but you do anyways. And you're going to keep doing it for no reason whatsoever. Maybe you won't keep worrying about this issue, but you'll come up with new issues because you can't find the right solution.

Just like this problem; you can't stop being friends with these nice guys, but you also can't rid yourself of the tacit possibility that you'll go totally nuts with them and end up turning into a stereotype. You're screwed either way . Because you aren't looking for an answer, one way or the other. Your feelings are right. Your feelings know that there is something beyond this issue of whether you skank out or not. You're not looking for the answer to the decision, you're looking for the thing in you that makes the decision possible. That makes you able to choose, because once you become the thing that makes you able to choose you won't need to worry about your choice because it will make itself for you. Does any of this feel right to you?

[Penelopi]

Originally Posted by The Cloud

Maybe you won't keep worrying about this issue, but you'll come up with new issues because you can't find the right solution.

i kinda get this, is it because since my mind can't find the right solution to that issue my mind will jump to other issues and worry about it until i solved it so at least i will feel at ease i have solved something but then the real issue still lingers?? or maybe not??

what would you do if your in a situation where there's no answer to the problem?

Just like this problem; you can't stop being friends with these nice guys, but you also can't rid yourself of the tacit possibility that you'll go totally nuts with them and end up turning into a stereotype. You're screwed either way . Because you aren't looking for an answer, one way or the other. Your feelings are right. Your feelings know that there is something beyond this issue of whether you skank out or not. You're not looking for the answer to the decision, you're looking for the thing in you that makes the decision possible. That makes you able to choose, because once you become the thing that makes you able to choose you won't need to worry about your choice because it will make itself for you. Does any of this feel right to you?

okay so what the hell should i do then?? hmm.. can you suggest anything? maybe you can see something that i don't see that might help me

[Andrew Gubb]

I'm pretty strongly sure that they want to have sex with you.

I remember there was a girl who was "one of the boys" in my last school but also happened to be hot. All the guys, including me, wanted her. It was damn obvious. Every lunch she'd be sitting at a table surrounded by ten guys. Not me though, I know the value of differentiation

The trouble is that when you're with a guy there will always be the sexual element, you can't escape it. If you let a guy get close to you, you're in sexual grounds. Where a girl and a girl would be hugging in affection a girl and a guy (assuming a certain amount of chemistry and a lack of inhibitions) would be kissing mouth to mouth. It's a beautiful thing, but this does mean your relationships will be different. You can't avoid that.

these are actually good looking and high class guys, i dunno if this has something to do with it. I'm starting to think that I'm asexual

This is a hunch, but maybe you aren't attracted to them because they are too invasive and they hide their sexuality by trying to be "friends" with you. They don't understand the sexual game, or they wouldn't be trying to sneak under your radar with a nice guy act. A woman needs to be warmed up.

[Gene]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

This is a hunch, but maybe you aren't attracted to them because they are too invasive and they hide their sexuality by trying to be "friends" with you. They don't understand the sexual game, or they wouldn't be trying to sneak under your radar with a nice guy act. A woman needs to be warmed up.

It sounds like they have internalized the belief that the best way to get a girl is to develop friendship. They are just clueless about how to behave after the friendship is established if they really want a romantic relationship with you.

[The Cloud]

Originally Posted by Penelopi

i kinda get this, is it because since my mind can't find the right solution to that issue my mind will jump to other issues and worry about it until i solved it so at least i will feel at ease i have solved something but then the real issue still lingers?? or maybe not??

what would you do if your in a situation where there's no answer to the problem?

okay so what the hell should i do then?? hmm.. can you suggest anything? maybe you can see something that i don't see that might help me

Haha, no, I don't see anything that you don't. You see everything you need to let this all play out as it should. You're confused and doubting yourself because you think you're supposed to be. You've learned that the appropriate response to confronting a problem you can't solve is to go crazy. That's why, even though you're obviously understanding the foolishness of what you're doing, you are still acting like you don't know what you're talking about by asking things like "or maybe not??".

The issue isn't about sex at all. The issue is that you feel like you're going crazy because all your old means of solving problems have turned out to do nothing but create problems, but no new methods of solving problems have presented themselves. I don't have any new methods of solving your problems. Your problems aren't the issue here, anyways. You know you can't solve this problem perfectly. You KNOW that, and you have to go from what you know, even if it's unbelievable. Your feelings are telling you to leave this be, that there's nothing to worry about. Picking at it in order to give others the impression that you want to do something about it doesn't make anything better, it just gives you the illusion of doing something useful.

The solution to this isn't about the problem. I know that doesn't make much sense, but you can't solve anything by thinking about the problem. You just make the problem worse. The solution is what is left over when all these problems are stripped away. Let your feelings guide you beyond the issue at hand. You won't be able to do it at first, and in fact you'll become very frustrated, and very frustrated that your frustration is making things worse. You will see yourself become more and more foolish as you peel away the layers of immaturity and false beliefs, because more and more of your foolishness will become apparent to you. And the more you see your foolishness, the more you will realize that it's not what's stupid in you that is important. It's not foolishness that you need to be rid of, it's something beyond foolishness that you need to find, something that has no need of your precious boy troubles and worrying. You're perfect the way you are, and in fact incapable of imperfection; you just have to find that out for yourself.

[rei]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

I'm pretty strongly sure that they want to have sex with you.

I remember there was a girl who was "one of the boys" in my last school but also happened to be hot. All the guys, including me, wanted her. It was damn obvious. Every lunch she'd be sitting at a table surrounded by ten guys. Not me though, I know the value of differentiation

you know, i've been 'one of the boys' before. i wouldn't say i'm 'hot' but i'm definitely cute (probably at least a 6 on the ten point scale, but it feels weird to rate myself like that) and smart and funny and usually laid back.

my former best friend was a guy. we finally acted on the tension between us, now he is not my friend anymore. makes me sad but i can understand. however, i wouldn't say he just 'put up with me' for about 7 years just to get in my pants. maybe the guys here would say differently, but to me that would at least be admirable in the amount of patience he showed.

these guys probably do want to sleep with you OP, but so what? if they respect you they will continue relating as 'only friends' until you give them obvious reasons to think otherwise. they are letting you make the choice to stay as a friend or explore something more, and that's empowering.

also i'll say, if they never make any moves on you, do not let them call you a tease. it's their responsibility to make their desires known to you. if they don't, it's on them, not you.

p.s. i feel a need to qualify my list of traits about myself so i won't seem conceited. i'm extremely sensitive about coming across that way. but there should be no shame in accurately assessing myself, so i'm resisting the urge to qualify it (but i'm really not resisting it completely or i wouldn't have added this!)

[Donkey1]

@rei, I don't think he was acting like your friend just to get in your pants, especially if ur more closer to the average side. He might have just been uncomfortable with the situation, don't really know the details, but yeah.

I've been in a similar situation and it was funny. People think sex changes everything, not really for me for some reason. I got on one of my close girl friends after a couple of years of knowing her. The next time we hung out when I picked her up, she had a shy sheepish look on her face. I couldn't help from laughing about how she was dealing with the situation. After a few jokes/laughs she was back to normal.

[rei]

thanks... i think. i'd say i was actually more attractive than this guy's gf but he wanted a very traditional, mainstream type of pair bond and i'm hardly either of those. and i may be more than a 6, i have no idea.

sex doesn't always change things, if you can push through the awkwardness (and if it's an actual friendship, not just a guy biding his time until he can sleep with you) i think the friendship survives. of course, you probably notice i mentioned a girlfriend there (not one of my finest moments!), so i'm pretty sure that had quite a bit to do with how things worked out. his girl was already a bit jealous of the time he spent with me, and i guess he had a guilty conscience. (again, not one of my finest moments...)

the sad thing is, the sex wasn't even that good. would have preferred to keep my friend a friend, especially considering that. ah well, in the past.

[Penelopi]

Originally Posted by The Cloud

You're confused and doubting yourself because you think you're supposed to be.

suppose to be what? sorry i'm kinda slow.

You've learned that the appropriate response to confronting a problem you can't solve is to go crazy. That's why, even though you're obviously understanding the foolishness of what you're doing, you are still acting like you don't know what you're talking about by asking things like "or maybe not??"

oh that is definitely not true. honestly i wasn't even aware that i was worrying, i got "crazy" because it suddenly occur to me like wtf, why am i worrying about these things? I felt like i am a diff person because i am not the type to worry about such things and then i got all get jumbled even more.... anyway, i think this is a whole diff issue, so nevermind.hehe.

The issue isn't about sex at all. The issue is that you feel like you're going crazy because all your old means of solving problems have turned out to do nothing but create problems, but no new methods of solving problems have presented themselves. I don't have any new methods of solving your problems. Your problems aren't the issue here, anyways. You know you can't solve this problem perfectly. You KNOW that, and you have to go from what you know, even if it's unbelievable. Your feelings are telling you to leave this be, that there's nothing to worry about. Picking at it in order to give others the impression that you want to do something about it doesn't make anything better, it just gives you the illusion of doing something useful.

The solution to this isn't about the problem. I know that doesn't make much sense, but you can't solve anything by thinking about the problem. You just make the problem worse. The solution is what is left over when all these problems are stripped away. Let your feelings guide you beyond the issue at hand. You won't be able to do it at first, and in fact you'll become very frustrated, and very frustrated that your frustration is making things worse. You will see yourself become more and more foolish as you peel away the layers of immaturity and false beliefs, because more and more of your foolishness will become apparent to you. And the more you see your foolishness, the more you will realize that it's not what's stupid in you that is important. It's not foolishness that you need to be rid of, it's something beyond foolishness that you need to find, something that has no need of your precious boy troubles and worrying. You're perfect the way you are, and in fact incapable of imperfection; you just have to find that out for yourself.

I think i know what your getting at.. hmm...i'll think about it. thanks the cloud!

[Penelopi]

Originally Posted by rei

my former best friend was a guy. we finally acted on the tension between us, now he is not my friend anymore. makes me sad but i can understand. however, i wouldn't say he just 'put up with me' for about 7 years just to get in my pants. maybe the guys here would say differently, but to me that would at least be admirable in the amount of patience he showed.

these guys probably do want to sleep with you OP, but so what? if they respect you they will continue relating as 'only friends' until you give them obvious reasons to think otherwise. they are letting you make the choice to stay as a friend or explore something more, and that's empowering.

also i'll say, if they never make any moves on you, do not let them call you a tease. it's their responsibility to make their desires known to you. if they don't, it's on them, not you.

p.s. i feel a need to qualify my list of traits about myself so i won't seem conceited. i'm extremely sensitive about coming across that way. but there should be no shame in accurately assessing myself, so i'm resisting the urge to qualify it (but i'm really not resisting it completely or i wouldn't have added this!)

nah, is okay, your just being honest anyway. oh that's sad.. i agree with you though that's actually how i view things, its just some ppl have diff view and opinion on this whole sex thing it just seems such a big deal, like i can't be friends with them if they want sex and its making me awkward.. its just weird u know? i don't know what to believe. anyway, thankyou!

[Penelopi]

Originally Posted by Donkey1

I've been in a similar situation and it was funny. People think sex changes everything, not really for me for some reason. I got on one of my close girl friends after a couple of years of knowing her. The next time we hung out when I picked her up, she had a shy sheepish look on her face. I couldn't help from laughing about how she was dealing with the situation. After a few jokes/laughs she was back to normal.

I was the same. But it got me confused when I started to feel diff, almost everyone sees sex/things diffrtly that i started doubting myself like im not normal you know what i mean?? like i feel like im not following the norm?? haha! but seriously that's what i felt.. like this is not a normal way of thinking bec i feel like i should feel like this and not this that got me all questioning everything.

its good that you weren't carried away by other people.

[The Cloud]

Originally Posted by Penelopi

suppose to be what? sorry i'm kinda slow.

Confused and doubting yourself. Sorry about the over-abundance of words and confusing phrases; if I really knew what I was talking about I could simplify more, but right now I'm working through the same things that I'm talking about so I don't have it all figured out yet.

Originally Posted by Penelopi

oh that is definitely not true. honestly i wasn't even aware that i was worrying, i got "crazy" because it suddenly occur to me like wtf, why am i worrying about these things? I felt like i am a diff person because i am not the type to worry about such things and then i got all get jumbled even more.... anyway, i think this is a whole diff issue, so nevermind.hehe.

Well, by go crazy, I don't mean like actual DSM-IV crazy. I mean that wtf feeling you get, like "wtf am I doing, worrying about these guys?" You notice stupid little things like that that you're doing, but then you can't seem to do anything to keep yourself from going through the same thing again. Knowing that worrying about your guy friends is unnecessary doesn't stop you from doing it, and in fact the more you think about it and try to stop it the "crazier" you feel. Or at least that's been my experience, and seems to be fairly common.

Hopefully you can pick something meaningful out of my verbiage. Good luck . You seem pretty smart, so you'll figure things out on your own if nothing else.

[rei]

Originally Posted by Penelopi

nah, is okay, your just being honest anyway. oh that's sad.. i agree with you though that's actually how i view things, its just some ppl have diff view and opinion on this whole sex thing it just seems such a big deal, like i can't be friends with them if they want sex and its making me awkward.. its just weird u know? i don't know what to believe. anyway, thankyou!

well i think several times now you've mentioned what others think, like social expectations... why not just set those aside or ignore them? (edit: i know that setting aside social expectations is often easier said than done, but it's entirely possible too) i had a really great friendship with the guy i spoke of before. we were both there for each other in ways only friends are there. seven years or so is a long time, and it breaks that stereotype about guys and girls having platonic relationships (well, it broke that stereotype until the end anyway...), it went against expectations which say we would have hooked up much sooner.

so i think maybe just forget about what society expects of you, just hang out with them and be their friend. let them make it obvious if they want it to be something more, and then the responsibility will be on them and you can hopefully relax and not be so self-conscious. and if you find yourself attracted to any of them, you can make that clear as well.

i think you're getting too caught up on what guy-girl friendship is expected to be, what the 'rules' are, and those rules don't always apply... maybe this is an opportunity to create your own expectations and your own rules. if things get crazy complicated you can always post on here for more support

[Penelopi]

Originally Posted by rei

well i think several times now you've mentioned what others think, like social expectations... why not just set those aside or ignore them? (edit: i know that setting aside social expectations is often easier said than done, but it's entirely possible too)

i realized, i don't usually worry or think about what others will think or say but then at the moment of my worrying it struck me because i realize that i am worrying. actually the problem here is "worrying" because i don't know the right way to avoid it. i just went blank on how i will stop these thoughts. i mean should i just stop thinking? that doesn't sound right, right? looking answers to it won't solve anything either because i am the only one worrying. its like i didn't know how to snap back to myself after realizing i am worrying.

(i realized this is a diff issue, but you can still answer if you like)

i had a really great friendship with the guy i spoke of before. we were both there for each other in ways only friends are there. seven years or so is a long time, and it breaks that stereotype about guys and girls having platonic relationships (well, it broke that stereotype until the end anyway...), it went against expectations which say we would have hooked up much sooner.

so i think maybe just forget about what society expects of you, just hang out with them and be their friend. let them make it obvious if they want it to be something more, and then the responsibility will be on them and you can hopefully relax and not be so self-conscious. and if you find yourself attracted to any of them, you can make that clear as well.

yeah, i guess your right, i'll keep that advice in mind.

i think you're getting too caught up on what guy-girl friendship is expected to be, what the 'rules' are, and those rules don't always apply... maybe this is an opportunity to create your own expectations and your own rules. if things get crazy complicated you can always post on here for more support

i have a question to you, you say you were one of the boys and you did not let stereotypes rule it (this is how you think, right?) but what about your friends? how did they treat you? do they think the same like you do, not letting the stereotype? what if they are letting the stereotype, what did you do?

because seriously, i don't let stereotypes rule it either i just treat everyone the same, but it seemed to me that they are the one acting out the stereo, so its kinda of confusing, im kind of getting carried by their actions.

thankyou2

[rei]

Originally Posted by Penelopi

i realized, i don't usually worry or think about what others will think or say but then at the moment of my worrying it struck me because i realize that i am worrying. actually the problem here is "worrying" because i don't know the right way to avoid it. i just went blank on how i will stop these thoughts. i mean should i just stop thinking? that doesn't sound right, right? looking answers to it won't solve anything either because i am the only one worrying. its like i didn't know how to snap back to myself after realizing i am worrying.

sounds like you realized 'hey, i'm worrying' and then started to worry that you were worried... lol... i've been there my friend. it's an ironic place to be. there is no "right way" to avoid it. i think the best way to handle it is accept it, accept how we feel in the moment. avoidance is resistance and makes it bigger than it needs to be. we accept it, we acknowledge it, we try to think logically about whether the concern is 'valid' or makes sense based on the observable aspects of the situation (so, behaviors, words, facial expressions etc. would count here - but thoughts and feelings of others wouldn't count because we don't KNOW they are thinking xyz and assumptions often amplify worry).

another thing we can do is return to the present moment. worry takes us away from Now to some other moment that hasn't happened (at least i think worry always takes us to a hypothetical future moment, i can't think of an example where worry would take us to the past, bc even if we think of the past the worry is about some consequence that is not currently unfolding)... an easy way to become more present is to simply notice, then focus our attention on, our breathing. breathing happens in the now, in the present moment. and focusing on the breath helps us get out of our heads a bit as well... if we focus on it fully, the mind usually gets very quiet, or we don't hear it as well.

so there's a couple ideas.

Originally Posted by Penelopi

this is how i think. i have a question to you, you say you were one of the boys and you did not let stereotypes rule it (this is how you think, right?) but what about your friends? how did they treat you? do they think the same like you do, not letting the stereotype? what if they are letting the stereotype, what did you do?

because seriously, i don't let stereotypes rule it either i just treat everyone the same, but it seemed to me that they are the one acting out the stereo, so its kinda of confusing, here i am breaking the stereo and there they are acting it out, im kind of getting carried by their actions.

my friends treated me like a friend. there were a couple times when a roommate wanted to relate in a different way, and those times my best friend suggested i stay in his room (but it was all way way more subtle than that sounds - it wasn't like a dangerous thing but in the interest of sidestepping massive back story i'll leave it as is). for the most part though, we were all friends.

but you know, some guys may seem like they are flirting with you when they aren't... i had a couple situations like that where i misinterpreted their intentions. if you really want to figure it out, the best way is to talk to these guys and ask them (of course...lol... even if they just want to sleep with you there is a chance they will deny it if they think you will stop hanging out with them). but you can at least ask, and like i said just relate as a friend and let them make their intentions known if it is anything more than wanting to be a friend. if they touch your arm and things like that, then they could be flirting. but friends will touch each other in a similar way.

maybe what would help is to stop analyzing it so much and get in touch with your gut instincts/intuition. that way your brain won't be clouding the issue. i mainly say that because i used to be way too analytical about things, and half the time the analysis didn't help me much. it exercised my mind of course, but practically i was just spending too much energy in my head. and i can't really know if you're doing that but i'm bringing it up anyway.

oh.. you're welcome! that's what this place is for - great isn't it?

[Penelopi]

Originally Posted by rei

sounds like you realized 'hey, i'm worrying' and then started to worry that you were worried... lol... i've been there my friend. it's an ironic place to be. there is no "right way" to avoid it. i think the best way to handle it is accept it, accept how we feel in the moment. avoidance is resistance and makes it bigger than it needs to be. we accept it, we acknowledge it, we try to think logically about whether the concern is 'valid' or makes sense based on the observable aspects of the situation (so, behaviors, words, facial expressions etc. would count here - but thoughts and feelings of others wouldn't count because we don't KNOW they are thinking xyz and assumptions often amplify worry).

another thing we can do is return to the present moment. worry takes us away from Now to some other moment that hasn't happened (at least i think worry always takes us to a hypothetical future moment, i can't think of an example where worry would take us to the past, bc even if we think of the past the worry is about some consequence that is not currently unfolding)... an easy way to become more present is to simply notice, then focus our attention on, our breathing. breathing happens in the now, in the present moment. and focusing on the breath helps us get out of our heads a bit as well... if we focus on it fully, the mind usually gets very quiet, or we don't hear it as well.

yah exactly! its crazy really. i just got lost and all to the point that im extremely anxious in school and can't go. i'll try that breathing again ive tried it before but nothing happened. im really far from present seriously.

so there's a couple ideas.

my friends treated me like a friend. there were a couple times when a roommate wanted to relate in a different way, and those times my best friend suggested i stay in his room (but it was all way way more subtle than that sounds - it wasn't like a dangerous thing but in the interest of sidestepping massive back story i'll leave it as is). for the most part though, we were all friends.

but you know, some guys may seem like they are flirting with you when they aren't... i had a couple situations like that where i misinterpreted their intentions. if you really want to figure it out, the best way is to talk to these guys and ask them (of course...lol... even if they just want to sleep with you there is a chance they will deny it if they think you will stop hanging out with them). but you can at least ask, and like i said just relate as a friend and let them make their intentions known if it is anything more than wanting to be a friend. if they touch your arm and things like that, then they could be flirting. but friends will touch each other in a similar way.

maybe what would help is to stop analyzing it so much and get in touch with your gut instincts/intuition. that way your brain won't be clouding the issue. i mainly say that because i used to be way too analytical about things, and half the time the analysis didn't help me much. it exercised my mind of course, but practically i was just spending too much energy in my head. and i can't really know if you're doing that but i'm bringing it up anyway.

oh.. you're welcome! that's what this place is for - great isn't it?

yep your right.. it drained my energy so much too probably because that was the first time i have those type of connection with boys considering i was from exclusive hs 4 girls and i was still adjusting(this is a stupid excuse though haha).

but anyway, i dunno, maybe this is a lesson i need to learn(cuz im not used with all the drama drama with boys. its kind of new to me because i just have those drama flirting moments with girls only), i guess with all those unanswered questions maybe i just have to get used to it and let it slip away and not bother me that much. maybe this weird flirting or not flirting happens all the time?? maybe boys are really just confusing??? henyway...


thankyou you again for the advices! really helped, maybe your the person i should be asking about boys. haha. thanks so much!

[rei]

Originally Posted by Penelopi

yah exactly! its crazy really. i just got lost and all to the point that im extremely anxious in school and can't go. i'll try that breathing again ive tried it before but nothing happened. im really far from present seriously.

being present is actually a pretty common topic on this forum. if you want other techniques you could search the forums or even start a new thread about it - there's plenty of people here who could offer their ideas.

Originally Posted by Penelopi

yep your right.. it drained my energy so much too probably because that was the first time i have those type of connection with boys considering i was from exclusive hs 4 girls and i was still adjusting(this is a stupid excuse though haha).

but anyway, i dunno, maybe this is a lesson i need to learn(cuz im not used with all the drama drama with boys. its kind of new to me because i just have those drama flirting moments with girls only), i guess with all those unanswered questions maybe i just have to get used to it and let it slip away and not bother me that much. maybe this weird flirting or not flirting happens all the time?? maybe boys are really just confusing??? henyway...


thankyou you again for the advices! really helped, maybe your the person i should be asking about boys. haha. thanks so much!

first off, saying you went to an all girl high school is not a stupid excuse at all in my view. probably others here would agree. high school is where a lot of people learn about these things (i met that former best friend in high school), so it's actually not even strange or weird that you are asking about it now. you're learning the kinds of things many of us learned when we were in high school.

each gender is very, very confusing to the other... get used to it
and there's plenty of the flirting/not flirting moments as well.
getting used to it or letting it slip away to not bother you as much is probably a good idea. there are probably also websites for this sort of thing as well, but i'm not sure what you'd search for to find them (maybe try "guys friends flirting" and see what you get?). anyway, i'm glad i was able to help a bit and i hope it all works out for you.

[The Cloud]

Originally Posted by Penelopi

im really far from present seriously.

I want you to mull that statement over for a bit. If you aren't present, then when are you? You're trying to find a place you can't leave. The present isn't something you can achieve using meditations, it's a thing which makes all the other things you do possible. You've already achieved the present; otherwise, you very simply are not. And my suspicion is that you are .

So how do you find the present? You don't. It finds you. You can do meditations and techniques, and some of those are really great in their own rights, but they won't give you the present. It found you already. The real question is how are you going to get away from the present so you can find it? That's what you're trying right now. You're trying to find an objective perspective away from the present so you can inspect it like a bug through a magnifying glass. But the more you pull away, the more you find that YOU are the bug and you can't get away from yourself to get a good look at yourself. You aren't in the present so much as you are the present; the present and you are the same thing, the thing that you can't see or examine, the thing that you are.

As for practical advice, I may have some. You're afraid of being a huge flirt, right? So then it would make sense for you to become a huge flirt, or at least open yourself up to the possibility. That way you find out who you really are and what your intentions really are. If, in the course of becoming a huge flirt you find that you're not flirting, then you've been afraid of a big fat nothing all along. And if you do happen to become a huge flirt, then you know what your intentions are and you know what you want to do much better than before. I suspect that you're afraid to lead these guys on. My suggestion would be to lead them on unabashedly. You might think that it's bad or wrong to do so. Perhaps it is, but perhaps it's your judgment of what's bad or wrong that is flawed and needs to be done away with. Most of the things we think of as evils are really just misguided neurosis. You find out what's really right and wrong by finding out who you are; who you are can't be wrong, so if you release yourself from stupid social restraints you'll find out what good really is. And you may not be able to do that without some shameless flirting .

[Penelopi]

Originally Posted by rei

first off, saying you went to an all girl high school is not a stupid excuse at all in my view. probably others here would agree. high school is where a lot of people learn about these things (i met that former best friend in high school), so it's actually not even strange or weird that you are asking about it now. you're learning the kinds of things many of us learned when we were in high school.

each gender is very, very confusing to the other... get used to it
and there's plenty of the flirting/not flirting moments as well.
getting used to it or letting it slip away to not bother you as much is probably a good idea. there are probably also websites for this sort of thing as well, but i'm not sure what you'd search for to find them (maybe try "guys friends flirting" and see what you get?). anyway, i'm glad i was able to help a bit and i hope it all works out for you.

Actually it doesn't bother me at first because I am aware of that, the differences and everything and I don't let it get in the way. But then I think I was also shocked because I am not used to guys and then suddenly they were all around. They say I look good, they say they like me, but I'm just not used to it I feel kind of pressured actually and to think I am so boyish and there are a lot of embarrassing moments too that is traumatizing in my part. hmm..

[Penelopi]

Originally Posted by The Cloud

I want you to mull that statement over for a bit. If you aren't present, then when are you? You're trying to find a place you can't leave.

So how do you find the present? You don't. It finds you. You can do meditations and techniques, and some of those are really great in their own rights, but they won't give you the present. It found you already. The real question is how are you going to get away from the present so you can find it? That's what you're trying right now. You're trying to find an objective perspective away from the present so you can inspect it like a bug through a magnifying glass. But the more you pull away, the more you find that YOU are the bug and you can't get away from yourself to get a good look at yourself. You aren't in the present so much as you are the present; the present and you are the same thing, the thing that you can't see or examine, the thing that you are.

As for practical advice, I may have some. You're afraid of being a huge flirt, right? So then it would make sense for you to become a huge flirt, or at least open yourself up to the possibility. That way you find out who you really are and what your intentions really are. If, in the course of becoming a huge flirt you find that you're not flirting, then you've been afraid of a big fat nothing all along. And if you do happen to become a huge flirt, then you know what your intentions are and you know what you want to do much better than before. I suspect that you're afraid to lead these guys on. My suggestion would be to lead them on unabashedly. You might think that it's bad or wrong to do so. Perhaps it is, but perhaps it's your judgment of what's bad or wrong that is flawed and needs to be done away with. Most of the things we think of as evils are really just misguided neurosis. You find out what's really right and wrong by finding out who you are; who you are can't be wrong, so if you release yourself from stupid social restraints you'll find out what good really is. And you may not be able to do that without some shameless flirting .

where am I? I don't know, all i know is im not fully there. maybe i am in the present but, im not facing it.

Nice, I like the advice Well this is what I do, I try to imagine someone is in my shoes or someone is surrounded with boys and how this person will usually react. I've actually witnessed girls who are surrounded with boys and they were all like in cloud 9 and become caught up with all the boys & stuff. Some become vain, self centered, some become vulnerable and was taken advantage of, some become this that. And I'm worried I might become one of these. Or maybe I was just imagining these things and making it real because I'm thinking about it.. I don't know if I'm prone to the disaster or will I be able to control it? Actually Im already worrying about it so I guess it worked on me. I'm just worried about being manipulated. though i know not all guys are like that.

[The Cloud]

Originally Posted by Penelopi

where am I? I don't know, all i know is im not fully there. maybe i am in the present but, im not facing it.

What can be done to change that? Can anything be done?

Originally Posted by Penelopi

Nice, I like the advice Well this is what I do, I try to imagine someone is in my shoes or someone is surrounded with boys and how this person will usually react. I've actually witnessed girls who are surrounded with boys and they were all like in cloud 9 and become caught up with all the boys & stuff. Some become vain, self centered, some become vulnerable and was taken advantage of, some become this that. And I'm worried I might become one of these. Or maybe I was just imagining these things and making it real because I'm thinking about it.. I don't know if I'm prone to the disaster or will I be able to control it? Actually Im already worrying about it so I guess it worked on me. I'm just worried about being manipulated. though i know not all guys are like that.

That's exactly the point. Allow yourself to become vain and self-centered and vulnerable. You can't disallow yourself from becoming those things simply by saying "I'm not vain, self-centered, and vulnerable" over and over again, or by playing out meaningless scenarios in your head. You say that you feel that your worry is unnecessary. Are you willing to take steps to prove that, to live what your body and mind are telling you is true, or are you just going to avoid the issue so you can keep worrying?

If your worry is invalid, then maybe the thing you're worrying about is what you are meant to become. Or maybe it's what you are meant never to become. Either way you can't face the truth until you admit that what your worry is telling you to do is wrong. It's not the fact that you feel worry that is holding you back, it is the seriousness with which you regard that worry. Knowing it to be wrong for certain, you still take it seriously as a valid means of determining your actions. As long as you use worry, you will feel worry. To stop worrying, you have to stop taking it seriously, and the only way I know of to stop taking it seriously is to let yourself become what you're worried that you'll become. I don't think you're a slut at heart, but if I'm wrong then you need to face the music, and the only way to find out for sure is to free yourself to become a slut and see if you're any good at it.

[Penelopi]

Originally Posted by The Cloud

What can be done to change that? Can anything be done?

yeah i guess.. but i just let it be for a while.

That's exactly the point. Allow yourself to become vain and self-centered and vulnerable.

i am not sure about this... then it would be like loosing myself w/c is always in control... or people will take advantage of me because im showing off weakness... what if ppl took adv of me? i wouldn't be able to protect myself the way i always do because i am vulnerable, i allowed myself to be it.

okay i tell you, i've done this. i gave in before, i allowed myself to be vulnerable.. i feel so out. like i don't feel myself, my initial reaction is go back to my comfort zone. i know its coward but i've no idea what to do.. now that i've found my com zone again i feel like in control again and can protect myself. But actually the big issue there was feeling like im losing myself and i have no idea how to handle the situation. i feel like im going to be a diff person and im not ready to lose myself... do you get what i mean? what shoud i do?

You can't disallow yourself from becoming those things simply by saying "I'm not vain, self-centered, and vulnerable" over and over again, or by playing out meaningless scenarios in your head. You say that you feel that your worry is unnecessary. Are you willing to take steps to prove that, to live what your body and mind are telling you is true, or are you just going to avoid the issue so you can keep worrying?

Im willing to take steps its just that im worried about the change.

If your worry is invalid, then maybe the thing you're worrying about is what you are meant to become. Or maybe it's what you are meant never to become. Either way you can't face the truth until you admit that what your worry is telling you to do is wrong. It's not the fact that you feel worry that is holding you back, it is the seriousness with which you regard that worry. Knowing it to be wrong for certain, you still take it seriously as a valid means of determining your actions. As long as you use worry, you will feel worry. To stop worrying, you have to stop taking it seriously, and the only way I know of to stop taking it seriously is to let yourself become what you're worried that you'll become. I don't think you're a slut at heart, but if I'm wrong then you need to face the music, and the only way to find out for sure is to free yourself to become a slut and see if you're any good at it.

im worried i will become this unapproachable type, like those ladies who are misjudge because of how they behave. kind of like high maintenance haha! because I don't want to become the girl whose given special treatment I want to be treated equally. I want to be treated the way I am treated when I wasn't that "pretty". or maybe im just seeing things things the wrong way. oh i don't know.

when i got to college im showered with attention that i didnt get before its actually okay but i feel like they are nicer because of my looks?? please enlighten my thoughts. thankyou!

(sorry i hope im not pestering you with my issues)

[The Cloud]

Originally Posted by Penelopi

But actually the big issue there was feeling like im losing myself and i have no idea how to handle the situation. i feel like im going to be a diff person and im not ready to lose myself... do you get what i mean? what shoud i do?

I know exactly what you mean. I'm not ready to lose myself either. I have this sense of fear, like there is some terrible emotion hovering over me, the cost of losing myself, and if I look up it will strike. So I cower and I crawl and pretend that that's having control my life, all for fear of this pain I cannot face. But no matter how cleverly I cower and crawl, I can't change the thing that is hovering over me. And I'm not strong enough to face it.

I think I faced it once, in a dream, and it was the most unbelievably intense moment of my life. I can't even begin to describe a lifetime of mistakes and failures coming down on me in one fell swoop. It was very simply beyond the scope of any descriptive words. I woke up from the sound of my bed knocking against the wall because I was shaking so hard.

But it doesn't have to be faced. I don't know how I know, but I know that it's not like that. I think that's the mistake of our entire lives; that we put pain above us like a cloud and make it a part of our being. Like to lose the pain is to see everything lost. But once we lose ourselves, the pain is lost too, and I think the happiness gained is of equal or greater measure to the pain lost.

And if we can lose ourselves and still be here, then we were never the pain to begin with. We are like worry; the less we use ourselves, the less necessary we become until we fade away. So you're afraid, and I understand that fear. But your fear isn't holding you back. The pain and fear will leave once you don't their protection anymore. So do what you need to do, watch what you know is wrong, and you'll stop using those pains that you don't need. It's far too simple to figure out, and your understanding is unnecessary.

It's funny how this all crystallized for me. All these things finally came together, and I realized that I don't need all these thoughts and techniques. Not that I've stopped using them, but I can feel what's beyond them in a way I couldn't before. Nothing you are using to get any further is of any use at all, except to disprove its own usefulness. You don't have to stop using your techniques and efforts, and in fact should keep using them in spite of their uselessness.

You just have to recognize the essential meaninglessness of your efforts to improve. I can't tell you how to get better; I can only tell you that any method you use to get better won't work, and you should do it anyways. Break yourself on your own stupidity and insufficiency, and eventually you'll come to realize how unimportant any of it is to your happiness. And you'll do it faster than I did if you don't waste your time trying to pretend that it's possible to get better from whatever spiritual malady it is you feel you have. You'll probably hate it for a while longer, just as you hate it now. Whether you hate or not, love or not, judge or not, is irrelevant. It's called awareness for a reason; it's not what you do or see, it's that you do and see that's important.

Originally Posted by Penelopi

I don't want to become the girl whose given special treatment I want to be treated equally. I want to be treated the way I am treated when I wasn't that "pretty".

But you are pretty, and you don't need to damn yourself because of it. Why is it the things that you earn with your mind (which, let's not forget, is a part of your body) are alright, but the things you earn with your body are cheap and unfair? Do you act stupid because there are other people that aren't as smart as you, or weak because they aren't as strong? I hope not. You don't have to act ugly because others aren't as pretty as you, either. You don't have to act like a floozy, but to cheapen your body is to cheapen yourself as a whole.

Your life isn't something that has to be bought and paid for with mental tricks. You are beautiful and deserving of whatever value you receive because of it. You wouldn't burn roses just because they were a gift. Don't burn your happiness just because you didn't pay for it. Life isn't a transaction. You are free, in more ways than one.

Sorry for the metaphors and pontification. I'm dealing with things in my own way right now, and you just happen to be the unfortunate victim of my ramblings. I feel as if you and I have some kind of connection, and I hope that I don't scare you off as I tend to do with other people that I feel connections with. Of course, I just guaranteed that exactly that will happen, but I hope it doesn't happen too awfully soon .

[Penelopi]

Originally Posted by The Cloud

I know exactly what you mean. I'm not ready to lose myself either. I have this sense of fear, like there is some terrible emotion hovering over me, the cost of losing myself, and if I look up it will strike. So I cower and I crawl and pretend that that's having control my life, all for fear of this pain I cannot face. But no matter how cleverly I cower and crawl, I can't change the thing that is hovering over me. And I'm not strong enough to face it.

I think I faced it once, in a dream, and it was the most unbelievably intense moment of my life. I can't even begin to describe a lifetime of mistakes and failures coming down on me in one fell swoop. It was very simply beyond the scope of any descriptive words. I woke up from the sound of my bed knocking against the wall because I was shaking so hard.

But it doesn't have to be faced. I don't know how I know, but I know that it's not like that. I think that's the mistake of our entire lives; that we put pain above us like a cloud and make it a part of our being. Like to lose the pain is to see everything lost. But once we lose ourselves, the pain is lost too, and I think the happiness gained is of equal or greater measure to the pain lost.

And if we can lose ourselves and still be here, then we were never the pain to begin with. We are like worry; the less we use ourselves, the less necessary we become until we fade away. So you're afraid, and I understand that fear. But your fear isn't holding you back. The pain and fear will leave once you don't their protection anymore. So do what you need to do, watch what you know is wrong, and you'll stop using those pains that you don't need. It's far too simple to figure out, and your understanding is unnecessary.

It's funny how this all crystallized for me. All these things finally came together, and I realized that I don't need all these thoughts and techniques. Not that I've stopped using them, but I can feel what's beyond them in a way I couldn't before. Nothing you are using to get any further is of any use at all, except to disprove its own usefulness. You don't have to stop using your techniques and efforts, and in fact should keep using them in spite of their uselessness.

You just have to recognize the essential meaninglessness of your efforts to improve. I can't tell you how to get better; I can only tell you that any method you use to get better won't work, and you should do it anyways. Break yourself on your own stupidity and insufficiency, and eventually you'll come to realize how unimportant any of it is to your happiness. And you'll do it faster than I did if you don't waste your time trying to pretend that it's possible to get better from whatever spiritual malady it is you feel you have. You'll probably hate it for a while longer, just as you hate it now. Whether you hate or not, love or not, judge or not, is irrelevant. It's called awareness for a reason; it's not what you do or see, it's that you do and see that's important.



But you are pretty, and you don't need to damn yourself because of it. Why is it the things that you earn with your mind (which, let's not forget, is a part of your body) are alright, but the things you earn with your body are cheap and unfair? Do you act stupid because there are other people that aren't as smart as you, or weak because they aren't as strong? I hope not. You don't have to act ugly because others aren't as pretty as you, either. You don't have to act like a floozy, but to cheapen your body is to cheapen yourself as a whole.

Your life isn't something that has to be bought and paid for with mental tricks. You are beautiful and deserving of whatever value you receive because of it. You wouldn't burn roses just because they were a gift. Don't burn your happiness just because you didn't pay for it. Life isn't a transaction. You are free, in more ways than one.

Sorry for the metaphors and pontification. I'm dealing with things in my own way right now, and you just happen to be the unfortunate victim of my ramblings. I feel as if you and I have some kind of connection, and I hope that I don't scare you off as I tend to do with other people that I feel connections with. Of course, I just guaranteed that exactly that will happen, but I hope it doesn't happen too awfully soon .

hah i knew it, the way you answer my questions i can see you are projecting something. but its diff for every person.. hehe sorry i don't really know what to say to your thoughts and although i did not fully understand i hope you find answers to your problem too.. i really like your answers yeah im kind of connecting to it.. im trying to level with your thinking hehe. btw, you did not scare me though, don't assume things!


and again, thanks for everything that you said its very very very useful thanks so much the cloud

[The Cloud]

How did you get so smart for a freshman? You're tackling the same types of problems everyone does when they're first going to college, but you're tackling it in such a different and smarter way. I wasn't at where you are in problem solving until at least junior year, if then, and I fancy that I'm ahead of the curve.

I wasn't assuming that you'd be scared off yet, but I get intensely negative without realizing (at least until very recently) and it puts people off. I guess negativity was my implement of learning. I hurt myself and hurt myself and hurt myself, first unconsciously and then with conscious intent, until I noticed that there was something that wasn't being hurt. I still often hurt myself with negativity out of habit and because I'm adjusting to having something that can't be hurt. I can stop it more now that it's more obvious what I'm doing, but I'm still at odds with myself.

If you can find a way to do with positivity what I did with negativity, that would be great and I would love to hear how you do it. To bludgeon yourself with happiness until you learn to move past it. As it is, all my advice amounts to is to lose hope until you don't need it anymore. I wish I could tell you a better way to do it, but you're right to be afraid of losing yourself. You ARE the pain in your life. Amongst other things, suffering is a part of your conception of yourself, and to lose suffering is to lose yourself.

Imagine a world where you didn't hurt when someone died, where you didn't even think about someone when they die. Not out of callousness or uncaring, but simply because it is unnecessary to do so. Can you imagine yourself as the person you are being a part of this world? Of course not, the you as you are NEEDS to hurt for others and for yourself, to think about others and yourself constantly and often with no good reason. But that pain is unnecessary, and if you were no longer here then it would all be gone and all that would be left is peace and joy.

If you can (it's very long), read "The Fountainhead." Amongst other things, it's about a man that cannot be hurt, cannot hate, and cannot fear. It changed my life, to see in honest words that it was possible not to hate and hurt and fear and all the other nastiness associated with being human. To be completely helpless before freedom and happiness.

[Brutha]

Really your problem doesn't have anything to do with them.

You have low self esteem and are searching for a reason why those guys want to spent time with you that's not acceptable to yourself.

Accept yourself, you are a great person.