Arguing inside your head

[Dimitry]

I was just having another "argument" inside my head. This one was regarding a few conversations I've had with a friend of Islam, terrorism, war(s) in the middle east etc. So inside my head I was having another one of these pontetial arguments I supposedly am having with this same friend (so my mind speaks both for myself and what it thinks my friend would counter with). Please note also that when I say argument, I'm mean debate style. As in "a discussion in which reasons are advanced for and against some proposition or proposal".

So I just realized something, whenever I have these so called arguments in me, it's mostly to do with convincing or debating/arguing with myself to try and gain a firm position on the subject matter. It usually involves a person in my mind that would oppose my position (either for the sake of an argument or because their position is different). So it has nothing to do with me vs them. It more has to do with me and how I feel regarding the subject at hand.

The next thing to explore is what to do with this realization. Do I stop these so called arguments, or are they the way we pave our thinking forward. Sort of debates that we have with ourselves.

Any ideas?

[alexb5784]

Why do you argue with yourself like this? How does creating all this conflict in your head benefit you? It's seems like it's stressful

I think you may care too much about what other people think. You need to be secure in your opinions and IF another person makes a point you can agree with, then change your mind. That's it! There is no need for you to keep arguing inside your head. You don't need to keep justifying everything.

Maybe the correct question might be:

How can I trust my new opinion? How does accepting a new point of view threaten me?

I'm not saying that you have to agree 100% with everyone, because no one can. For example, I'm American, but I can understand some of the frustrations people have in the Middle East. I can also understand some of the issues Muslims deal with in France, as I live in France too. I don't have to agree with all their cultural ideologies, but I can understand how they feel osterized. In other words, I don't have to agree 100%, but I can agree on some issues. And I feel fine about that. I feel secure in knowing that I can understand something.

I don't spend time arguing with myself, because someone else made a point and I don't agree with it. You've got to work on being confident in your opinions and decisions.

Good luck

[Gary]

Your side isn’t even your side. You have an imaginary character of the opposing person, and you have an imaginary character of your “self”. Your imaginary self image looks like you and sounds like you. You can even feel the emotions of that imaginary character so it feels like “you”.

It’s not.

It is a character in your imagination that is only one aspect of the many sides of the ego mind we can adopt.

Cut out that character and YOU will still be here.

How to do the cutting out is another thing but there are steps that make it possible. As long as you identify your “self” with your character self, there will be arguments with other characters. It is one of the ways the ego mind continues to survive and disturb our emotions.

Gary

[빈센트]

Put it down on paper. Arguments inside your head usually end up being inconclusive and stressful and they can run on forever because you're not really keeping track of anything; it's just your mind wandering from here to there so obviously there will be some bias.

My personal recommendation is not to waste your energy arguing about the Middle East. These arguments are all too common and a waste of time. Essentially there are three boring opinions most people provide.
1. Extreme: Islam is not a religion of peace. Everything anti-Muslim goes here.
2. Moderate: Can't we all get along?
3. Extreme: The U.S. sucks for invading and making the the Middle East situations worse.

It usually never goes beyond this. Every time this topic arises. Same old arguments. Just don't talk about it. It's clearly a waste.

[TheFlyingMan]

If I can recommend the works of Eckhart Tolle...they have been the best out of all I've tried.

Two books, the Power of NOW, and A New Earth. They both point to the same thing, but have different ways of teaching. He said it himself, and I was one of those people - different ways of teaching work for different people - I read the Power Of NOW, thought it was great, but nothing really happened for me. Then I read A New Earth, and things started happening - I have much more control over my thoughts and my emotions, and that's just the start! Others get more benefit out of PON then NE.

[Erock]

All I have to say is: 90% of Americans do this. You are not unique. The Power of Now, A New Earth, and many of the books I have read recently discuss this. Plus I know from personal experience that I used to (and still do, but I am getting better) this all the time.

Listen to me on this, because for about 5 or 6 years I did this non stop, and I always did this when my beliefs were not congruent with reality, and I was trying to convince myself that my beliefs were still right. I would see something, or take in a piece of information that shattered some of my beliefs, and I used self discussion as a method of re-establishing my beliefs.

Tolle discusses how defending a position in an argument makes it a part of you, so what better way to re-establish a firm belief then to argue with yourself? The mind (excuse me, the ego) can be very tricky. Watch out for these loop holes, and thanks, because you reminded me about this particular one (which I just caved to a few hours ago).

Erock

[demk]

I do this all the time. The arguments are like automatice fantasies that just appear. I am pretty sure they simply serve the ego by feeding it with a sense of superiority and "rightness" (because in an argument you are always right and therefore superior). It is frustrating to be addicted to negativity in this way. Your mood is damaged by these thoughts and life flows less as a result. It also wastes energy.

I haven't solved it permanantly (yet) but I find that spending time each day practicing a meditation where you simply let your thoughts float by as if they are leaves on stream works well. When you simply acknowledge the thought as it appears but dont get in involved with it you can let it pass quickly and direct your thoughts to a better place. It is about developing a new level of awareness where you recognise the destructive nature of these thoughts and simply let them pass. Unfortunately it can be frustrating to have thoughts in your head that you clearly find petty but at least that shows your maturity and level of consciousness. At least its better than getting dragged into constant imaginary battles that serve no other puspose than to bolster your prefered indentity as some one who is "right" (which is impossible btw - how can you feel more right or superior to another piece of nature...there are reasons for everything and nobody is really at fault, it just is).

Hope this helps...

If anyone else has any experience with this I would love to know because I am interested in controlling these types of thoughts at the moment.

[Gary]

There is not one step or one practice that will do it, not without spending many years. You have to address different parts of the mind. There is the belief in being right, the point of view, the emotion, the feeing of needing to defend your argument against another part of the mind. If you address these different parts of the ego mind in a divide and conquer approach it can be done much faster.

In the audio program in self mastery I teach people the exercises and practices to dismantle the internal dialogue. The first audio sessions are pretty simple and are meant to help an individual build a foundation of consciousness for the later exercises. If you have been seriously practicing meditation for a while they may not engage you very much in the beginning, but the exercises and practices build on one another and become more involved. More at Self Mastery

I learned this approach from my mentor, Miguel Ruiz, author of the Four Agreements. I developed into a system for dealing with the emotions and internal dialogue in the mind. It is possible to quiet the mind and feel peace and happiness. It will take some work. That is my experience.

[Mark Lapierre]

Dimitry, you're not actually at odds with yourself are you? Your post doesn't imply any negativity associated with your thought process. You're simply visualising a discussion between two opposing viewpoints as a rational argument between two people.

I'm sure that most of us, when thinking about any serious topic, will consider multiple points of view, weight them up, and use our existing knowledge and ability to reason to discard the points of view we don't agree with.

It seems to me that all you've done Dimitry, is to visualise that analytical process. Possibly because you're used to having these sorts of face-to-face discussions, and it therefore seems natural to you to visualise your own internal reasoning as a discussion between two people.

If that is the case, and your internal dialogue is purely rational and emotionless, then I don't see any harm in it. However as Vincent said, keeping the discussion inside your head can be inconclusive; writing things down will help you structure your thoughts better than discussing them with yourself would. Also, you're limiting yourself to only two points of view. You could be subconsciously preventing yourself from becoming aware of alternatives.

On the other hand, if your internal arguments do stem from a desire to justify your position on a particular topic, then it is self-detrimental, and my advice would be the same as everyone else's; don't feed the ego.

[ethereal]

Try to stop thinking and allow your intuition/higher Self to guide you. Logic is fallible, but I think you've had instances of "gut feelings" and so on which usually always prove to be right. And like what others have said, they aren't even "your" arguments, they're basically flotsam and jetsam out in the collective consciousness that your mind, like a radio, tuned into through the desire and interest in thinking itself. Just withdraw complete interest in your thoughts; various meditations like "being the witness", observing your thoughts go by without judgment or participation, will eventually stop them from intruding on your peace of mind. You'll realize that once you stop thinking, your comprehension of events and situations actually become even clearer. It's like seeing the forest instead of the trees; you become aware of the complete situation, rather than picking at details.

Surrender all arguments, thoughts, and positionalities to God/the universe; just let God carry the burden of sorting it out. I don't mean this from a religious standpoint, but more of from a practical viewpoint. None of these debates or thoughts actually have any meaning to them, they're based on hypothetical realities and situations that won't come up anyway. When something needs to be done or voiced, it will be at that time. No point trying to control the outcome.

[Dimitry]

Originally Posted by Mark Lapierre

Dimitry, you're not actually at odds with yourself are you? Your post doesn't imply any negativity associated with your thought process. You're simply visualising a discussion between two opposing viewpoints as a rational argument between two people.

I'm sure that most of us, when thinking about any serious topic, will consider multiple points of view, weight them up, and use our existing knowledge and ability to reason to discard the points of view we don't agree with.

It seems to me that all you've done Dimitry, is to visualise that analytical process. Possibly because you're used to having these sorts of face-to-face discussions, and it therefore seems natural to you to visualise your own internal reasoning as a discussion between two people.

If that is the case, and your internal dialogue is purely rational and emotionless, then I don't see any harm in it. However as Vincent said, keeping the discussion inside your head can be inconclusive; writing things down will help you structure your thoughts better than discussing them with yourself would. Also, you're limiting yourself to only two points of view. You could be subconsciously preventing yourself from becoming aware of alternatives.

On the other hand, if your internal arguments do stem from a desire to justify your position on a particular topic, then it is self-detrimental, and my advice would be the same as everyone else's; don't feed the ego.

I wish I could reply more in depth to this thread as it's brought up various interesting aspects/venues to look into. It's a busy time though so I can only make a quick reply (but will do so later on).

To answer your question Mark, I seem to have both. I picked up on it subconciously but never analyzed that. In the case where I'm just debating, I don't always mind it so much, but as you said, what frustrates me is that it's mostly circular logic and inconclusive. So probably if it's an important issue to analyze further for me, I should start writing them down.

I do also have the other kind of argument where if I felt that I didn't "win" my friend over or in some way his argument at the time was better, I would still try to argue that in my head to prove my point. I almost have a sick like feeling and it does usually spiral downward. The good news is as I started taking responsibility for all things that I can hope to control, I've had these types of arguments less frequently.

[apt94jesse@gmail.com]

I agree with Mark in that it doesn't seem to be a completely negative experience for you. Here are a couple of thoughts that your situation brings to mind:

1. Look into Steve's latest blog on Human Relationships. To sum up, he uses the Subjective Reality theory to explain how human relationships are all in our head, since the only way we interact with people is through our internal perception. Very interesting stuff.

2. Circular Logic is OK, in my book at least. Someone once said that the definition of being a genius was being able to hold two conflicting opinions at the same time. I probably misquoted that, but you get the idea.

My point is, there are too many grey areas, especially in places like politics, to hunt for concrete truths in the complexities. It sounds like you need to be ok with those grey areas.

A member on these forums, and a good friend of mine (I think he goes by SeanConnelly here) had a good post about logic and emotion. I'm too lazy to find it now, but he basically was saying (and quoting from somewhere else) that humans are emotional creatures first and logical creatures second, contrary to the popular belief.

That means that arguments with "other people" will be emotional first, and logical second, since people usually argue about what they are passionate about. Don't worry so much about convincing people one way or the other. Instead, try to see why they might not line up with your beliefs. Once you can relate to them, it will be easier not to hold it against them.

Plus, if this reality is really subjective, aren't arguments with "other people" really just in your head as well?

-Jesse

[Gary]

What is going on here?

Dimitry started out with an argument in his head about the Middle East and realized he was playing both sides. He wrote about it in this thread and asked the question?

Do I stop these so called arguments, or are they the way we pave our thinking forward. Sort of debates that we have with ourselves.

Now he seems to have a new debate about whether he should continue the conflicts in his mind or not? People here have jumped in and now we have multiple minds with differing opinions and a bigger debate than we started with. Or did I miss something here. Just Curious

I want to start at the beginning. I think Dimitry's question is rather limited. He gives himself only two options and then doesn't explore them very far.

What does your life look and feel like if you debate constantly and are always at the ready with a rebuttal more clever point than anyone else . (This is kind of extreme but look at the possibility) Who is going to want to be around you?

What does you life look and feel like if you make peace in your mind and it is quiet. You accept the world as it is and people as they are with their own opinions with no need to change them. (Also extreme but it might be good to explore the whole spectrum)

For a third option what if you gain control over your mind so that you can choose either of these at will when you want? You want to formulate an opinion and have something make sense to you and so you do. When you are done with thinking about it and you turn off the mind, relax, and enjoy your life.

For a fourth option what if you do neither of these and come up with something else?

I think if we start with a more expansive question to begin with we can expand to other possibilities than just have a debate with two sides to it.

Enjoy the Game

[Love]

Wow, it's really funny to see your post, Dimitry. I just realized a couple of days ago that I do exactly the same thing. I decided that these discussions didn't serve me (because they were always based upon my imagination and only served to make me feel more "right") so I just decided to nix them. Everytime they come up, I say no, and just stop. Since that day, I've been astounded to realize just how many "conversations" I have in my head. However, if you're just trying to think you're way through an issue (i.e. not actually using an imagined conversation with a real person) then I don't see why it would be a problem.

[Lauxa]

Usually when these debates arise in my mind they have a negative energy surrounding them. Try noticing if the energy surrounding these thoughts is negative or positive. If it is negative, it would probably be beneficial to let them go and try to turn your attention to something positive.

[dorothy hanna]

In the Bible, this phenominon is referred to the devil, or Satan, as "The Accuser, who accuses day and night."

It is called doubt also, and your faith is battling it out with doubt. Stop the battle, and silence the accuser, and walk away, in your mind. This is what silencing your mind means. You're in the habit of getting caught up in these dialouges in your head.

Now, practice stopping the dialouge, by fousing your attention on what you are actually doing, be it driving your car, or taking a walk and looking at the scenery, or whay ever.
This inward debate is a sign of an idle/passive mind. That's why there is the sating, "An idle mind, is the devils workshop".

By idle, I means we have all been raised to be very passive in our mind. We are not really very good at right thinking yet. Thinking probperly, as Michael Beckworth said. Instead of focussing on our own intentions, and desires, we are focusing on an inner arguement/debate/dialouge with figments of our imagination, and wastes much of our time.

This comes from being raised spoonfed, with large doses of Television, and the educational programs etc...We sit back, and wait for someone else to come, and tell us what subject, and what page to turn to next, for further instruction. We've been guided to NOT be one of the "Movers, and Shakers, of the world. We are like sheep.

The movers and shakers are busy creating their world, and we are busy watching, on the news, or a show on tv, etc... their great success, as an audiance clapping, or a critic.

I'm getting more and more out of these types of debates, and either stopping them, or looking to changing them.
By change, I notice that the form of these are fashioned very much like Fox News supposed debates, or any other T.V. debate, so instead, I'm looking to form, in my head, a THINK TANK, where I have a really good team, behind me, working toward my well-being. Any member of that team that makes me feel bad, in anyway, is outta there. The team is to work, think, strive toward my well-being. Come up with good/great/fun ideas, and lay out the plan, and then we impleiment it said plan.

[Gazzali]

Originally Posted by Dimitry

I was just having another "argument" inside my head. This one was regarding a few conversations I've had with a friend of Islam, terrorism, war(s) in the middle east etc. So inside my head I was having another one of these pontetial arguments I supposedly am having with this same friend (so my mind speaks both for myself and what it thinks my friend would counter with). Please note also that when I say argument, I'm mean debate style. As in "a discussion in which reasons are advanced for and against some proposition or proposal".

So I just realized something, whenever I have these so called arguments in me, it's mostly to do with convincing or debating/arguing with myself to try and gain a firm position on the subject matter. It usually involves a person in my mind that would oppose my position (either for the sake of an argument or because their position is different). So it has nothing to do with me vs them. It more has to do with me and how I feel regarding the subject at hand.

The next thing to explore is what to do with this realization. Do I stop these so called arguments, or are they the way we pave our thinking forward. Sort of debates that we have with ourselves.

Any ideas?

hello dear friend

The question is a necessary one. A good one too. Well, you can transfer such things in arts and writing. Paint your thoughts or write it. I just did it in here Beneficial Learning for Outstanding Generation

gazzali

[Keith]

Tony Robbins' "Unlimited Power" has a useful technique here. When a voice (especially a negative one) is going on in your head just turn its volume down so that you can't hear it rather than engaging in argument. (It almost always wants to win more badly than you do).

I've done this a few times myself and it actually works.

When to use this technique is another matter, and a personal judgement call. IMO, the adversarial system is an overrated way of getting at the truth that leads to binary thinking, but it's totally your call.

[eduard]

Originally Posted by Gazzali

hello dear friend

The question is a necessary one. A good one too. Well, you can transfer such things in arts and writing. Paint your thoughts or write it. I just did it in here Beneficial Learning for Outstanding Generation

gazzali

i think we should study more the real nature of pleasure and pain and then about reason and arguments

[Lauxa]

Originally Posted by dorothy hanna

I'm looking to form, in my head, a THINK TANK, where I have a really good team, behind me, working toward my well-being. Any member of that team that makes me feel bad, in anyway, is outta there. The team is to work, think, strive toward my well-being. Come up with good/great/fun ideas, and lay out the plan, and then we impleiment it said plan.

I love this idea! What a cool way of looking at the internal dialogue.