Fear of hell

[The David]

About seven months ago, I stopped believing Christian theology and came out as an agnostic (not a safe thing to do in a town like this one). All went well for a little while. However, I later met with resistance of varying to degrees from friends and family members, one in particular. I know I made the right choice, but the mild insults and condescension--far worse than outright persecution--made me feel like a criminal.

Now, I can deal with the social aspect of this, as I will most lkely be leaving this town in the near future. However, the fear of hell, which was instilled in me during childhood, still lingers to this day. It is completely irrational, especially now that I don't even believe in hell, but the concept was incredibly traumatic at the time. My parents made a huge deal about 'checking your salvation' (like a lightswitch or a lock) and frequently doubted mine, and so I quickly learned to doubt it as well. Some of my earliest memories of Christianity are endless repetitions of the sinner's prayer. I was raised strictly evangelical, so avoiding hell (the fiery kind) was a large aspect of my spirituality, perhaps the most prominent aspect.

I know some of you come from Judeo-Christian backgrounds, but has this ever been an issue for you? What do you think the solution is? It sickens me to know that I'm just giving them the control they want, but it seems impossible to make peace with something I've spent most of my life fighting.

[Michelle]

I grew up with this fear, so I understand just how horrendous it can be.

You need to change your core beliefs about God. Do you want to believe in a God who is wrathful, angry and wants to be feared? Or do you want to believe in a God who loves unconditionally simply because you exist?

A few years ago I moved from the States to Switzerland. My best friend is Swiss and he told me this story from his life which helped me ...

He was a little boy and had been bad. As his Grandmother was putting him to sleep he said "I am scared that God will be angry because he is everywhere and sees everything and knows what I did". His grandmother said "There is a reason why we call God "Liebgott" and not "Bösgott".

In Swiss German the word for God is "Liebgott" which literally translated means "kind God". "Bösgott" would be an angry God.

Change your belief, perception and you will gradually lose your fear.

[LauraC]

The bible doesnt teach that we go to hell.....

Ecclesiastes 9:10
All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol, the place to which you are going.

Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all....

in the future:

John 5:28,29
Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgement.

because:
Psalm 37:29
The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it.

[fdjaudinesjr]

I believe that there's no such thing as hell. When your spirit leaves your body after death it losses its sense of everything as well.

My question is how will you experience hell?

[JHL]

I'm sorry to hear about your predicament, I think you've touched on a rather unpleasant side of religion, which is coercion and control through fear.

To be honest, I have no idea what happens after death. But what does make sense to me is that you account for how you behaved in your life. If you are trying to live a good life, trying to be kind and pleasant and helpful to your fellow man - then I dont think you have anything to worry about.

We're all human and we're entitled to our humanness - that is, to make mistakes, to stumble, to be indecisive and to encompass all the foibles peculiar to the human condition. Just do your best. The effort will be precious to God.

[dadeon]

Be careful not to confuse Christianity and religion with God because it only attempts to formalize some eternal truths and give people (who are too lazy to think for themselves) a set of rules and guidelines that they 'must' follow.

It's undeniable that you have a spirit and that you are indeed a spiritual being having human experiences. Life and the experience of being on this earth in this body is nothing but a temporary experience. You came from the world of spirit (eternity) and to it you will return the second you leave your form.

The whole heaven and hell thing was an invention by the early churches to instill fear in people - they understood one psychological fact very!

[dadeon]

You are here to experience in the physical universe what you are as spirit - the spirit made flesh. When you life a life of self actualization = when you realize what you are really, that is when you live an inspired life on the highest level in service of God.

Jesus said this many times: 'What I am, you are. What I can do, you can do...and this was central in His message. Until and unless you realize that you are a not just God's most magnificent creation, but that you are God you will remain bound in a fear of a God who knows no fear, a God that demands nothing, a God that needs nothing and a God that is as much everything as She is nothing...

Heaven and hell are earthly/humanly concepts and concepts that I believe God has no interest in. God is only love and love is life and the glue that holds everything together.

[The David]

Originally Posted by Michelle

Do you want to believe in a God who is wrathful, angry and wants to be feared?

Well, that's the thing. I don't believe in God, either. In fact, I know sworn atheists who have this same fear. It's not a belief; I don't really 'believe' that I will go to hell, it's just some sort of primal instinct. What's worse is that I'm already defying it. I've left Christianity altogether and am pursuing a very un-Christian path, so it's not like I'm letting the fear control my decisions. It's just a vague sense that divine judgement of some sort is going to sabotage my victories.

How will I experience hell? Well, personally, I think the literal 'lake of fire' is really stupid, but that was how I was raised and so I always have to ask myself, 'What if they're right?' I don't think any kind of active 'judgment' is really that plausible, and I'm not sure if I believe in an afterlife at all.

It's like this: You've been raised with the belief that people hate you and want to hurt you (clinical paranoia). For whatever reason, you go out into the world anyway, but there is a lingering distrust. You know you were lied to, but you can't prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt. Things like that just don't go away.

[Michelle]

Originally Posted by The David

Well, that's the thing. I don't believe in God, either. In fact, I know sworn atheists who have this same fear. It's not a belief; I don't really 'believe' that I will go to hell, it's just some sort of primal instinct. What's worse is that I'm already defying it. I've left Christianity altogether and am pursuing a very un-Christian path, so it's not like I'm letting the fear control my decisions. It's just a vague sense that divine judgement of some sort is going to sabotage my victories.

You may think you do not believe in God, but if you still fear his wrath and hell - your belief is still in place. Indeed, you may tried to change your beliefs and on the conscious level claim you do not believe but your fear is showing you the opposite.

You do not want to believe in God would probably be a more fitting statement.

[The David]

Originally Posted by Michelle

You may think you do not believe in God, but if you still fear his wrath and hell - your belief is still in place. Indeed, you may tried to change your beliefs and on the conscious level claim you do not believe but your fear is showing you the opposite.

You do not want to believe in God would probably be a more fitting statement.

I think it's like this: I don't rationally believe in the Christian God. But yes, some unconscious part of me still believes that I'm going to somehow end up being tormented after death. I suppose I believe there still could be such a God.

[Angela]

That's religious training as child abuse. Religious belief is programmed into a child's malleable brain by use of morbid and horrible fear so deep it occurs later for the child as "primal fear." This is brainwashing at its worst, and it's amazing parents torture their children this way. If god and religion are so positive, what's the need for the fear of eternal punishment in order to enforce it?

[Lil Chris]

Originally Posted by Angela

If god and religion are so positive, what's the need for the fear of eternal punishment in order to enforce it?

That is the best question I've ever heard regarding religion (especially Christianity)... I personally don't subscribe to religion, but do believe in god.

Don't worry about it...

[elainevdw]

Originally Posted by The David

I think it's like this: I don't rationally believe in the Christian God. But yes, some unconscious part of me still believes that I'm going to somehow end up being tormented after death. I suppose I believe there still could be such a God.

I've experienced this to a smaller degree (seeing as my family's brand of Christianity was only slightly condemning). All I can say is that it should get better over time, especially if you surround yourself with like-minded friends.

I also string my parents along to some degree... I don't want to scare them by telling them that I don't believe in all that anymore, so I let them think that I do believe it but just don't like going to church.

I know that's not the healthiest way to approach things, but seeing as one of the reasons I rejected Christianity was pain over the thought of friends I loved going to hell, I don't want to put my parents through that, too.

It may always linger a little bit, though. Like, even though I don't consider myself Christian and don't really worry about hell, etc., I still hesitate to formalize it by even privately rejecting my confirmation vows or baptism. There's a lot of fear, there.

[marky]

i once heard that the term "fires of hell" came from ancient garbage piles that would be set on fire and seem to burns endlessly...and experiencing the fires of hell what not something people wanted to do. somehow that concept worked it was into dogma of religions. dunno if its true, but thats what i remember reading somewhere.

bottom line, i dont believe in hell. i believe in evil (absence of light). but i think when we die we all return to the one and only source.

m.

[Scholar22]

Yeah there was a big burning garbage dump in Isreal called "Gehenna"-- Jesus talked about the dangers of going to Gehenna if you sinned--obviously a metaphor.

The idea of Hell is hard to reconcile with an all-loving God--to say the least.

But these two ideas make even less sense to me:

1. We will simply pass out of existence completely when we die.

2. We will continue to live on in some fashion, but it won't matter if you've led a good life or a bad--we'll all live happily ever after regardless.

If you think of hell as a burning lake of fire it comes across as pretty ridiculous. But if you think of it as a way of saying "The consequences of your bad actions will stick with you after you die" it makes some sense, if you believe in any kind of afterlife.

[The David]

Originally Posted by Scholar22

If you think of hell as a burning lake of fire it comes across as pretty ridiculous. But if you think of it as a way of saying "The consequences of your bad actions will stick with you after you die" it makes some sense, if you believe in any kind of afterlife.

I was raised fairly Calvinist. Good works didn't matter nearly as much as theology, and had virtually no effect on eternity. In fact, I feel like I have a stronger sense of morality since leaving the faith, but the 'Calvinist God', if such a God exists, is still up there condemning me over a difference of opinion.

Go figure.

[stacey]

I know what it is like to have people judge you. I've decided that I'm going to be a loving person who despite mood swings and temperament, will always strive to be loving. My Father taught me this. Sadly, when you see the destruction of life itself it is difficult to imagine how a loving God would allow such things. I suppose that is the price we pay for wanting free will. We are obviously capable of doing very terrible things. Fortunately, we are also capable of doing very good things too. I am a mother of two, and believe me, I would give my life for either one of them. I love them both very much. It is awesome to know someone loves you so much that they are willing to give their life for you. Do you know anyone who would do this for you?

[Erock]

I am fascinated by consciousness, enlightenment, and spirituality, and it doesn't make sense that god would punish an individual who is attached to their ego, which is the only way anyone could do anything "bad." The only reason people do "bad" things-which in my definition is anything that hurts another physically, mentally, or spiritually-is when they are caught up in fear, anger, or desire, all symptoms of a "pain-body" as Tolle describes it, or a low level of consciousness if you're a fan of Hawkins.

So no worries
Erock

[MartialDev]

Originally Posted by The David

However, the fear of hell, which was instilled in me during childhood, still lingers to this day.

There's nothing to be afraid of. If do you end up in hell, it is only because you fit in there!

[The David]

I should probably mention that the fear has not been as severe lately, but it is still somewhere in the back of my consciousness.

[Michelle]

Are you afraid of retribution or getting in trouble during this lifetime, too?

I ask because I was (and still am to some degree).

This had to do with turning my father into a kind of God and giving all my power away. Since facing my fear of my father, I have less fear of retribution from God and in general.

I posted on this here:

Retaining Personal Power in the Presence of Powerful People

Here:

Retaining Personal Power in the Presence of Powerful Individuals at A Singer’s Life

and here:

Personal Power and Subjective Reality at A Singer’s Life

[Light]

Originally Posted by elainevdw

I've experienced this to a smaller degree (seeing as my family's brand of Christianity was only slightly condemning). All I can say is that it should get better over time, especially if you surround yourself with like-minded friends.

I also string my parents along to some degree... I don't want to scare them by telling them that I don't believe in all that anymore, so I let them think that I do believe it but just don't like going to church.

I know that's not the healthiest way to approach things, but seeing as one of the reasons I rejected Christianity was pain over the thought of friends I loved going to hell, I don't want to put my parents through that, too.

It may always linger a little bit, though. Like, even though I don't consider myself Christian and don't really worry about hell, etc., I still hesitate to formalize it by even privately rejecting my confirmation vows or baptism. There's a lot of fear, there.

That's a perfect description of my state as well.

What I was taught when I was younger was that God forgives everything. They would always say that there's no sin too great. Well, then why doesn't that cover not believing in God?

The thought of decent people who don't believe in one particular thing being punished for all eternity never sat well with me.

[dadeon]

Fear is a great motivator - in fact people will do more to avid pain than to gain pleasure...and the early churches (most religions) knew this. So, they used fear as a way of getting people to follow what they told them to do.

A perfect moderrn example is with the 'War On Terror" - by putting the fear of god into people they can get enough people to support the 'cause' - sounds a bit like The Cruisades to me...

I believe with all that is me in a God that is ALL love, peace and harmony. Anything that contridcts this does and anything that does not match...I choose to not have part of.

[Matthew Shea]

I would suggest, The David, that you read the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification. Focus on section 3. The crux of the statement is the last sentence in paragraph 15. It gives what I believe to be the true perspective on how we are to achieve salvation. I guarantee you'll see a much different perspective than what you were raised with.

If you haven't closed yourself to the idea, I would suggest you visit some churches. Don't limit yourself to a specific denomination. Listen to the messages being preached there and the words being spoken. Try your best to soak everything in. In your heart, you will know when you've found one that's gotten it right. There's a lot of rich history and culture and a lot that's right about Christianity. Unfortunately, though, the Church is a human institution and there are a lot of congregations that choose to focus on the negative, like avoiding hell and preaching what you shouldn't do, rather than on being positive and praising God, thanking him and providing positive guidance.

Personally, I think hellfire and brimstone Christianity has it's place, but only in very limited respects. I think when a pastor sees a bad trend that's affecting his people, it's his duty to get up there and set the record straight. For the most part, though, the focus should be on doing what's right, not avoiding what's wrong and certainly not worrying about whether you're going to hell. If there's anything that I consider to be completely missing the point of God's salvation message, that would be it. If I'm reading between the lines properly, you seem to have OD'd on the hellfire and brimstone and it's chased you away from your faith. Perhaps God will hold those responsible for this to account for your loss of faith, but I sincerely hope you won't shut your mind to giving it another shot.

[The David]

Originally Posted by Matthew Shea

If I'm reading between the lines properly, you seem to have OD'd on the hellfire and brimstone and it's chased you away from your faith.

Not really. I pondered the view of Annihilationism a couple years ago. About one year ago, I dropped the doctrine of hell altogether and began pondering Universalism. I dropped many other doctrines during this period as well, including the Trinity, the Deity of Christ, and Biblical inerrancy. I considered myself a Christian, though. I can't pinpoint a specific day, but I looked around, saw the path I was going on, and realized it was not leading further into Christianity, but rather out of it. The weird thing was, I was okay with that. I questioned my decisions many times, but everything I saw, everything I read, and everything I experienced, confirmed my feelings.

I had gotten over the fear of hell at that point, but after my 'deconversion', it resurfaced.

[Ollie]

David,

I've found nothing helps to dissolve fears faster than paying attention to them and not shirking away. One way to do this is to sit in a quiet room for a good amount of time and just get in tune with your mind and body (meditation, if you will). It's also possible to do this via journaling (and makes for interesting reading later). When journaling I generally write a dialog with the fear, ask it questions, and see how it responds. I've found it's fairly easy to drill down to root causes this way.

I wish I'd found this out years ago, it would have saved me a lot of time I wasted trying to hide from fear and anxiety with entertainment and other sensory overloads.

Using these methods I've been able to understand and resolve anxieties and fear sitting in the pit of my stomach that I hardly realized were there.

For what it's worth, I grew up with a similar background and in the same general location (Chattanooga, TN area). I too did the whole doubting/fear thing while I was a Christian and then later walked away from it (or perhaps it's better to say that it stopped fitting in my head).

It's only natural to still have some of these fears. You are coming out of a monolithic mindset that considered every other viewpoint as wrong, alien, and deluded. Two major elements of control in this mindset are 1) the fear you are being deluded by Satan if you step away from orthodoxy and 2) the fear you will go to hell if you step away from orthodoxy and the church. I'm convinced that if it wasn't for these two components of the religion it would never have spread (or stayed as cohesive as it did) and we'd all still be worshiping Jupiter and Minerva or some such.

I pretty much went from a Christian view-point to a atheistic viewpoint at first. While I wouldn't refer to myself as an atheist now, I think that process of sweeping away all the latent 'spiritual' cob-webs of my upbringing and looking at things from a vastly different perspective (for me it was meme-theory) helped me start over fresh.

What I've found is that the more I've studied and practiced other ways of thinking--ancient mythologies, atheism, meme-theory, Buddhism, new-age, etc--the more many elements of Christianity look like myth and legend too me (whereas they did not in the past). I also find it surprising that after having dismantled that old 'literal' approach to Christianity and come back to it from a different direction, those same myth-like elements of Christianity now have as much, if not more, beauty and meaning to me, even if I don't necessarily believe that they actually happened.

If you'd like to discuss things more in-depth feel free to PM me.

-Ollie

[Lauxa]

David,

Good luck with this, some of those fears instilled into us in childhood manage to keep biting us even when we think we've moved on. I was lucky that my Christian faith taught the idea of "permanent salvation", that after believing in JC once, you can never lose your salvation, so it freed me a bit to move away from the path without really having to worry about hell. But there are other aspects I still struggle with. For instance the teaching that psychics are demon posessed may still be limiting my psychic development. And I was taught that taking communion while being in opposition to God could cause sickness or death, and I haven't done that since my deconversion (good word, by the way), and that was about 10 years ago now.

I think something that's been helping me lately is moving actively into new belief systems. For me, being agnostic wasn't powerful enough to overcome the old fears, it left too much of a spiritual void. Tony Robbins says (and I'm paraphrasing) that the value of a belief isn't whether it's true or not but how empowering it is. So I would suggest that you pick a new belief system that resonates with you and you feel would be empowering in your life and really embrace it for a while. When you begin to see evidence that it is true (which you will, because we see what we look for) you will be able to more fully put your old belief system behind you.

[The David]

Ironically, my parents were adamantly 'once saved, always saved'. But that doesn't seem to be what Jesus says.

I don't know. it's all very confusing and illogical, but for some reason my subconscious is telling me that something bad may happen if I don't return to the faith.

[joshbickford]

Being a Christian is not about religion, it's about a relationship. If you have questions about God seek them out--you'll find the answers to your questions.

[joshbickford]

Originally Posted by LauraC

The bible doesnt teach that we go to hell.....

Ecclesiastes 9:10
All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol, the place to which you are going.

Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all....

in the future:

John 5:28,29
Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgement.

because:
Psalm 37:29
The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it.

I've heard the bible used to make some pretty hilarious arguments before, but this one might be the best one yet.