Afraid of stray dogs, who limit my movements in Bucharest

[bluedragon]

I have a most unusual problem, which will sound very strange to many people I think.

Here in Romania, there are stray dogs on the street EVERYWHERE - in every park, on every street, even in the center of Bucharest which is the capital. Most people are used to them and are never afraid. They can walk through a pack of 5 dogs without skipping a beat. If the dogs bark at them, they just yell at the dogs and the dogs run.

However, a few people were killed by dogs, one Japanese tourist and a few others. And many people are being bitten by dogs daily and need to get tens of shots in the belly.

Some people avoid dogs, and when they see them, they either make a detour or cross on the other side of the road. This can get really annoying sometimes. I am one of those who are very afraid of dogs. If I am alone and I see a dog, I either cross the road or even go back. If there are other people around, I am less afraid, and if I am WITH someone, even if it's a child or a girl who is more scared then I usually am, then I am not afraid AT ALL. There can be a pack of 20 dogs passing by us, the adrenaline will just not kick in. I guess I am just convinced they will not attack 2 people. But if I am alone, even one small dog who barks at me will make a bucket of adrenaline be spilled into my bloodstream and I go crazy. I have been bitten by a dog belonging to some shepherds, but I don't think that is the cause. I just don't know what to do to get over it. I don't even know if it's logical not to be afraid of dogs, since there is the possibility to be killed by them, but apparently, those who are not afraid never ever get attacked or barked at. So I guess for them, it is logical. I am not sure if this is an emotional problem or a mental one. But it is really interfering with my freedom of movement around the city. I wouldn't have the guts to go out after midnight and walk 2 blocks.

Anyone else has experience with this kind of thing and could offer some advice?

[Timothy Smith]

Ah, here's my rule: when the clock ticks 10, and you want to go out like a hen, don't go in danger, there's no chance you'll find a ranger, and many chances you'll find a dangerous stranger.

[drakecatz]

Well, I guess animal shelters aren't big in Romania! People are being killed and the government doesn't do anything? Amazing.

I live in the United States, and I have a 3 yr old pug dog. I was walking him one day and he was attacked by another dog. Both dogs were on leashes, but the owner just couldn't hold her dog. It was a horrible attack!

We got her dog off my dog by hitting it with a plastic bag I was carrying. The bag popped, and the dog let go.

I walk my dog everyday and now I always carry dog maise. In the U.S. we buy it in pet stores. I've haven't had to use it, but the attack on my dog completely changed the comfort I once felt walking him.

The loud pop from the bag scared the dog that attacked mine, and he let go. You might go into a toy store and find something that you could carry that makes a loud noise. Dogs don't like loud noises and they would probably run away if you used it.

I'm sorry you have to go through this. In the U.S. there are leash laws. Dogs are not allowed to roam. Of course, as you can see there can be other problems.

Don't get me started on the excuses people make for their mean dogs. Dog people are a bred unto themselves, and for some their dog could kill someone and it would be the dead persons fault.

My advice is maise, (works up to 18 ft away,) and noise. I don't mean yelling. Dogs don't respond to that. A loud noise they are unfamiliar with will do the trick. And it will make you more comfortable knowing you are armed and ready!

[Strem2]

Originally Posted by bluedragon

...I don't even know if it's logical not to be afraid of dogs, since there is the possibility to be killed by them, but apparently, those who are not afraid never ever get attacked or barked at. So I guess for them, it is logical. I am not sure if this is an emotional problem or a mental one. But it is really interfering with my freedom of movement around the city. I wouldn't have the guts to go out after midnight and walk 2 blocks.

Anyone else has experience with this kind of thing and could offer some advice?

Dogs don't operate from logic, but from smell and body language. If you are afraid, they will move into attack mode. If you run away, it's even worse and you will probably get hurt.

You have noticed the truth. Those who are not afraid are not bothered. It is not logic, but scent.

I grew up with dogs and am not afraid. The way they resolve things is to test who has the biggest mouth. Did you ever see two dogs kind of "fighting" but not really biting, just holding their mouths open and growling and putting their teeth on each other, but not breaking the skin at all? They are just measuring.

If you are with people who are not afraid, you can practice yelling, or growling with the biggest growl you can muster, and use your arms to make your body look bigger, and kind of chase the dogs.

Now, if there is an alpha dog in group who makes a move toward you, the way you let him have his way is to look away from him and stop your forward (aggressive) moves. If you look down this is deferring to him and he will stop being aggressive toward you. However, don't be afraid. You are just signaling that you don't want to challenge him. Fear is always bad. That's why you're doing this with friends who are not afraid.

You just need practice in successful transit around the dog packs.

- Nancy

[Strem2]

Originally Posted by drakecatz

.. Both dogs were on leashes, but the owner just couldn't hold her dog. It was a horrible attack!

We got her dog off my dog by hitting it with a plastic bag I was carrying. The bag popped, and the dog let go.

....Dogs don't like loud noises and they would probably run away if you used it.

..And it will make you more comfortable knowing you are armed and ready!

I am sorry that your dog got attacked and maise sounds like a good idea. I have tried to separate dogs (not mine) and know that sometimes they don't let go so easily. I remembered though, as you were talking about your pug, that I had a mixed breed, like a shelty sized English Setter. She was really cute. She used to bark at big dogs, and when they'd run at her she'd run to me and jump into my arms, and then continue to bark at them. Fortunately, I was always able to make them back down before they knocked up both down....

- Nancy

[Acting Like Godot]

Would it help your confidence if you carried a big sturdy stick with you? Or perhaps a tennis racket or a baseball bat or something like that.

Dogs are smart, they know that a person armed with something like that is more dangerous to them than a person without.

[bluedragon]

Many people use their backpacks to swing them at the dogs and scare them, or they pretend to pick up a stone and throw it at them. But most don't even pay attention to the dogs, hey just go about their business.

I know fear is not good but this doesn't mean I can control it (yet). Anyway, the thing is, sometimes a dog will bite someone from behind, unnoticed. So how could that person have been afraid if she didn't even notice the dog in the first place? Luckily, most dogs only bite once and then they leave.

[Dreamline]

There is that old theory that if you are afraid of something, you should confront your fear.

Maybe your destiny is to help rid Bucharest of it's stray dog problem by opening a shelter and beginning a formal neutering program. Then you wouldn't be just helping your own fear, you'd be helping a city's fear.

Jennifer

[ballhit2]

Just get a tougher dog and walk with it

[Iggy K]

Hey buddy!!
I am close,from Croatia and as you can guess we also have them here wondering the streets on regular basics!!!
I have a small terrier and I LOVE dogs all my life so you see I m friend with all of these dogs I pet them when I see them!! Even the huskies and some BIG mountain shepard kinda dogs!!
Also my dog plays with all of them,they are not mean here.
So my advice is-BEFRIEND THEM!!

[bluedragon]

I have no problem with dogs with owner, I'm not afraid of them because something tells me they are never going to attack me. And when I'm not alone, I'm not afraid even of stray dogs, there's something in my head that tells me I am safe. But when I'm alone, the buckets of adrenaline just kick in and I can't control myself. Especially if there is a dog walking slowly behind me, and I don't know if he is going to stick his claws in my leg in the next second or just pass me by quietly. If I had a dog, I would not be afraid, I guess it would be like when I'm with a friend. It wouldn't matter if the dogs attacked us precisely because of my dog, I know they just like to bark. But altering my lifestyle drastically by getting a dog just because I'm afraid to live in the capital of a country is not an option. I need to overcome this. What if I lived in a post-war country full of debris and wild crazy dogs running around looking for someone to eat? I plan to visit a lot of places and I need to be free to move around like a normal human being.

[drakecatz]

This is true. After my pug was attacked the first thing I did was get the baseball bat out. I felt better just looking at it, and I was so mad about the attack.

The attack dog lives at the end of my street and I had visions of walking by the house carrying my bat.

In the end I settled for the maise. The bat was just to big to carry. I'm going for a walk for Christ's sake! I shouldn't have to look like I'm out to kill!

Also think about what I said about buying something small that makes a loud noise. It will scare them and they should leave you alone. Go get em!!!

[bluedragon]

Yes, that's a good idea. Squibs for examples always scare them, and swinging a backpack at them does the trick too. I guess I am just overestimating the dogs' abilities and their determination. When I see a pack of dogs, I fear they could come after me and not stop until they eat me, but the truth is, they rarely pursue a person for more than a few meters, they're usually just defending a territory, and even if they bite someone, they usually leave him alone after that (except when they didn't and those horrible things happened, but those were rare). I am sure most people don't think like that, otherwise they would be afraid too. For example, I see old women who can barely drag their feet. They have no squibs or bats, and they are still not afraid. Of course, knowing all this doesn't help a bit when I see an animal crossing my path.

[Talkofthatown919]

You already have it made up in your head that you can die from the dogs, that your scared and etc. Change your thoughts about the dogs think of them as a part of your habitat if that makes sense. Dogs sense if you are scared of them and they feed off of that. Just as humans do. Visualize everything going as you want it to.

[emeadow]

If you have access to them in your area, check out videos and books by Cesar Millan. While his stuff might be geared towards 'dog owners', its all related to the same thing. Learning how your energy and how the expression of your intentions effect the dogs (and animals) around you. So all of his instruction can be applied to any situation with dogs, whether yours or someone else's.

You can watch some short video clips on youtube, Hulu, and National geographic website, but its hard to find full episodes online.

There are two episodes in particular that come to mind (in case you would like to narrow down the video search). One was when he worked with the Postal Service employees who had trouble with loose dogs while delivering mail (search cesar millan postal workers)

The second one was a father whose children wanted a dog but he had a great fear of them (Ernesto Robles was the father if you want to search that one). The Ernesto show actually comes on again this friday night in the US (July 10th......maybe someone can record it here??....). Its a great episode, Cesar gives him a walking stick to help build his confidence when around loose dogs, ect.

Great information he provides, would highly recommend his advice to help you build your confidence and better understand the situations you are getting into.

[bluedragon]

Thank you. Your answer actually helps. I found some of the videos - impressive stuff. It is mostly geared towards dog owners, but I'm sure Cesar Millan would not be afraid to wonder the streets of Bucharest (just like most people except me aren't either ). I hope I find something where he actually gives some tips for people like me.

[Mikahcho]

It may sound strange, but perhaps the fear isnt in the dogs themselves?

maybe you are actually afraid of those shots, which you mentioned? the ones you get after getting bitten by a dog. i doubt that though.....

You can try to use a technique, i cant rememberthe actual name, but it is where you slowly expose yourself to dogs, bit by bit, until you are over your fear

i'd recommend that ^_^

so try something, like a friend stands a small distance away as you walk past a dog and the next time you try it, the friend stands just tiny bit further ^_^

another alternative is a huge exposure, like running into a pack of big beefy dogs, all by yourself :P

NOT encouraged by me though >_<

good luck with this man, hope i helped, even a bit ^_^

[emeadow]

The couple key things he says that usually apply to any situation with new or stray dogs...

-Do not touch, no eye contact, keep moving forward
-"Own your space" Believe that you are confident and in control, hold your shoulders and head up, walk forward like you know where you are going

Likely when folks walk to the other side of the street, what that does is build the confidence of the strays that they 'own' the territory. That people will avoid them and walk around their territory, which just builds the level of authority in the strays themselves, but in turn, weakens the energy given off by the humans that pass by. One pack thing he has discussed when dealing with strays, is the fact they will circle people just like a normal pack....one or two dogs might face you in the front, and then another dog will come up from behind and nip your ankle. This is a total hunting technique...occupy the front, disable the rear. This is where he recommends walking with something to not only defend, but to increase your confidence. A walking stick, a racket, maybe even an umbrella...whatever gives you the ability to put some distance between the dog and you should something go wrong.

He does talk about some situations, where eye contact will create a very aggressive dog to attack....or that in some situations you need to stand your ground, not 'flee', claim your territory of sorts, let the dog back off, and then move forward. Sort of give off the energy that you own that area. As you watch his videos, he will say things like 'that bark is an insecure bark, its just a warning to back off but I am not going to do anything'....or then he will identify 'that is an aggressive confident bark or stance, he is warning he will attack, he is in control'. Most of the videos on aggressive dogs, you will hear comments and get to see a lot of examples of dogs in their stances and behaviors, and you will learn what all the signals mean, very helpful for dealing with strays.

Pretty much everything he says is all about visualization. He talks a lot about putting in your mind what you want to happen......you want to claim that area, you want to control that street, you are the human in charge, you are going to walk down that street to your destination with no interruptions. You visualize it, and it sends out that energy to the dogs. If you visualize the scene of being bitten or attacked, you send out the weak signal, and the dogs will move in and take 'control' of you so to speak.

Its great stuff.....his shows are very much about personal growth, most folks think they are seeing him to help their dogs, but its all about fixing the humans though. The dogs know your weakness more then you do, and they mirror it, or capitalize on it. He tries to show people how dogs and animals can be a great tool to help get yourself to the next level.

(can you tell I am a fan...LOL)

Here is part of the vid on ernesto (who has a fear of dogs). Later they walk the neighborhood and go to the pound, and deal with strays, loose dogs, ect. Not much on this clip....but all I could find in my online searches Best of Nat Geo in HD | Fear of Dogs | National Geographic Channel

The postal worker episode would be the most relevant.

I am rambling....I get a bit excited in animal discussions

[bluedragon]

try something, like a friend stands a small distance away as you walk past a dog

Here is the weird thing - when a friend is with me - I am not afraid AT ALL. And it doesn't matter how big and strong the person is - it can be a child who is even more frightened than I am. If someone else is with me, I am absolutely certain that whatever happens, the dogs will not bite. I don't know why, but even if we are barked at by a pack of 6 dogs, I will keep my calm and encourage the other person to do the same. I will even be the one walking on the side closer to the dogs. However, if I'm alone - I totally loose it, even with only one dog who isn't even threatening.

What do you think this says about me?

Originally Posted by Mikahcho

maybe you are actually afraid of those shots, which you mentioned? the ones you get after getting bitten by a dog. i doubt that though.....

I am not afraid of shots. I used to be, but I got over it - it would be hard to explain how - but I actually enjoy it now However, fear of shots is something irrational. I am also not afraid of going to the dentist anymore. I also seem to have mysteriously overcome any fear of challenging social situations, although I haven't done much public speaking but I bet I will master that too. However, in all those situations, there is no real or even potentially real danger of severe injury, and certainly not of death. But with dogs, I perceive it as a possibility, and in an objective model of reality, it is a real risk so I don't know how to handle this idea of risking my life when I can just avoid the dogs.

Originally Posted by emeadow

He talks a lot about putting in your mind what you want to happen......you want to claim that area, you want to control that street, you are the human in charge, you are going to walk down that street to your destination with no interruptions. You visualize it, and it sends out that energy to the dogs. If you visualize the scene of being bitten or attacked, you send out the weak signal, and the dogs will move in and take 'control' of you so to speak.

Are you referring to Cesar Millan the dog whisperer? I like his videos but except for the one with Ernesto (which is only 3 minutes long), I couldn't find anything that addresses fear of wild dogs, or even fear of dogs with owners. I am never afraid of dogs with owners. Where does he talk about fear of dogs, did you find any videos on other video hosting services like Youtube? Have you found any written material by him or someone else? I wasn't able to find much, but I did find a few tips such as turning your shoulder towards the dog and crossing your hands to show that you don't mean any harm without being submissive, and what to do if you are attacked - curl in a fetus position and let the dog bite you till he gets bored. I am more interested in tips on how to actually prevent this from happening

[emeadow]

Originally Posted by bluedragon

Where does he talk about fear of dogs, did you find any videos on other video hosting services like Youtube? Have you found any written material by him or someone else?

National Geographic Channel keeps all his material under super lock and key. Nothing ever pops up on youtube or external sites outside of the same 2-3 minute clips of just a handful of shows. He has several books out, and probably half dozen video series....I rent them from the local library though.

If I find some additional resources I will pass them on!

The discussion of the pepper spray or mace, might be a good option to carry, even if you are not going to use it, having it in the back of your mind as a safety net might be the same as walking with a second person. It might flip that switch over to the 'confident not going to get bit' attitude you know you already are capable of.

[bluedragon]

Originally Posted by emeadow

The discussion of the pepper spray or mace, might be a good option to carry, even if you are not going to use it, having it in the back of your mind as a safety net might be the same as walking with a second person. It might flip that switch over to the 'confident not going to get bit' attitude you know you already are capable of.

I would feel like a god if I could have that attitude - the god of dogs El perrero I will get there... Just watching and learning about dog psychology helps me a lot and gives me great satisfaction - it's quite fascinating to see that humans can interact with beings that react to such basic things as territoriality, dominance, authority, trust etc.

[drakecatz]

The small loud noise maker you could carry along with the mace, is a whistle! Make sure it has a tone that makes you feel powerful. As emeadow said, just having these (physical) tools will help you feel more confident.

[bluedragon]

All these things would not eliminate in my mind the possibility of being killed. From what I have read on many sites, it is very difficult to use a spray effectively when a dog jumps at you, and it is almost impossible to get rid of a dog once it has bitten you unless it lets go of its own will. You can strangle him or punch it in the nose but none of these would work if facing 3 or 4 dogs at the same time.

I don't understand how people can be afraid of trivial things like needles or going to the dentist, yet be so courageous when it comes to animals that pose a real threat to their lives. I realize the risk is very small, but still...

On the other hand, I have read stories about people who have been attacked by a pack of 200! wolves and still survived. It's almost as if different people live in different universes - some die in Bucharest because of stray dogs in a dirty neighborhood, others survive packs of wolves in America or bears, and others are killed by a negligent owner's combat dog. I don't know what to make of it.

In the past months I have managed to overcome many unjustified fears - going to the dentist, speaking in public, I have dealt effectively with challenging social situations. But when it comes to dealing with the possibility of a physical attack, I haven't been able to diminish my fear even a bit.

[bluedragon]

I guess why I find this situation so puzzling in that it is so easy to avoid the object of my fear without loosing anything. And nobody ever notices what I'm going through (when I'm with another person, I am never afraid). So I need a reason to risk so much by passing by a dog when I can just avoid it, but on the other hand, for most people, passing by a dog (or a pack of dogs) is as simple as passing by a tree.

It is the gravity of the risk on the one hand, and the extremely low probability of it happening on the other, that makes the situation so confusing, as well as the fact that I have no reason to risk this (except being able to decide on which street to walk on instead of always avoiding certain streets).

Besides, the risk of an attack, although extremely low, can become very high if dogs sense my fear.
So in other words, in order to be safe, I would need to have already overcome the fear, in which case I wouldn't be having any problems to begin with...

These are the things you could (probably) help me with, even if you haven't personally lived in a country with dangerous stray dogs.

[bluedragon]

Many people have answered this thread with good answers perhaps, but I am still hoping someone will tell me something that I can really use.

As I said, I believe my problem is mostly of a logical nature, in the sense that I can't justify taking such a great risk (being bitten badly by a pack of dogs), because I have the alternative to simply avoid passing by dogs. This does make life harder for me here in Bucharest, because I always need to avoid certain streets and sometimes even turn around and change course. However, in each particular situation taken alone, avoiding the dogs always seems the logical choice, given the gravity of the risk, no matter how UNLIKELY this risk is. Some would say that, if you are not afraid of them and you just ignore them, there is virtually NO risk. However, even if the risk is negligible, I can't justify taking it, and I am compelled to retreat or change direction (almost physically). But I am certain that, if I could find another way of looking at this, another mindset, I could easily overcome this fear. However, I may be mistaken about this being the cause of my fear.

[blossom]

Holy crap BlueDragon! Time to move town if you ask me...