forgiveness questions

[TheFlyingMan]

Hey all, couple questions on forgiveness:

1) Is true forgiveness being able to think about the relevant event(s) without feeling upset or rehearsing what you should have said, etc? What is the definition of forgiveness?

2)Can anyone help with any tips on these? I've done quite some work on this, and I feel much better, but sometimes I check on myself to see if I have truly forgiven - by putting myself in that situation again - then I realise I haven't truly forgiven because I still get worked up.

3) And most important, when thoughts of the past hurt pops into your head, and you immediately switch your thoughts, is that escaping from it, or is it a step in forgiving?

4) Also, is it different when it comes to forgiving yourself? There are some things that I still can't forgive myself for sometimes.

[Jill]

I'm definitely no expert on this, however, many years ago I did forgive someone for a very, very major thing. I can tell you that in my experience once I did that, it completely changed the way I felt about the person and what had happened. I did not get worked up over anything, and was able to move on and put the past completely behind me. It really was miraculous. I didn't know anything about forgiveness at the time, but knew that I had to either do that or would have to move on completely and cut that person out of my life. That wasn't really an option for me as it wasn't what I wanted to do.

So, I would have to guess that you really haven't truly completely forgiven in your case, if it still gets you worked up.

I think the hard thing for people to realize is that when you forgive, you're not saying what happened was right. You're just saying "it happened, but we're moving on and not going to use it against anyone anymore." (Or something like that.)

It's extremely hard to really do for most people I think. It has to be a very conscious decision that you make for a very good reason.

Good luck!

[Gary]

1. When you have truly forgiven you no longer get upset or have an unpleasant emotional reaction when you look back at that event or interact with that person.

In the process of forgiveness you drop the whole story and expectation of “what should have been said or done”.

It is the expectation of “should” that is the criteria for judgmental comparison creates the emotional reaction. In true forgiveness we drop the expected should criteria.

2. I don’t know what you mean by “putting myself in that situation again.” I’ll assume you mean think back to the event to see how you feel from that viewpoint.

The quick thought switch might be the minds denial mechanism to avoid painful emotions. A kind of protection against hurt. At the same time it is covering up the wound that is underneath. This type of feeling better isn’t permanent.

3. In the case of forgiving yourself. Consider writing out in detail the all the things that you “should” have done. Then scrutinize the list. Given the person you were that day, with all you had going on, knowing what you knew then,,, could you have done anything different. Probably not. If at the time you could have made a better choice in your life, you probably would have.

You will find out that the whole list of “should” is just a set of imagined conceptual ideas that never happened that we are using as a criteria to reject ourselves. These imagined expectations are FOR GIVING up. When you give up this list you accept your self and life as it is. This is what changes the emotion.

It doesn’t mean that you give up on making changes in your self. It just means that there is no longer the painful self rejection when we think back to event.

___________________
Pathway To Happiness

[TheFlyingMan]

Thanks Gary and Jill.

To Gary: Yes thats what I mean by putting myself in the situation again. I have broken off all contact with the people in questions, but I sometimes relive the experience (sometimes involuntarily, sometimes voluntarily to check how far I've come).

Yes I understand that the "should" is what is causing the pain. So you would suggest that each time the memory pops into my head, I understand that everything that happened should have happened?

The thing is, with relationships, its a major mess. One event, so many intepretations, that sometimes I don't know who's the hurt one. I hurt her, she hurt me, I hurt myself, she hurt herself. Added to that the feelings that I had/have for her, and its a mess.

It's very different from other insults (strangers calling me racist names randomly used to be the biggest source of pain for me), where it's a clear-cut case of he's wrong and I'm not. Those are very easy to forgive and forget (the moment I started PD, that is).

To Jill: Thanks for sharing...how did you do it? Did it just happen on its own, as a "snap" thing, or was it a process? Cheers!

[Gary]

I don’t’ suggest replacing the interpretation you have with “Everything that happened should have happened.” It opens the door on feeling righteous and or that I deserved to be treated that way. A slight shift in attitude or interpretation in the meaning of those words can take you into emotional drama again.

When everything is forgiven the words right, wrong, should, and shouldn’t, no longer apply. I suggest going with something closer to, “We did the best that we could at the time.”

How to shift to forgiveness? Mostly what is required is a shift in point of view. There are techniques and process I teach through audio downloads on my website. It’s a bit more than is appropriate for these forums.

[Jill]

To Jill: Thanks for sharing...how did you do it? Did it just happen on its own, as a "snap" thing, or was it a process?

It's really hard to explain really as I had no previous experience with forgiveness at this sort of level.

For me, things were spiraling out of control with this particular relationship and I was basically at my wits end. I believe I had talked to someone else on a forum (we're talking like 10 years go or more now) and I was saying that I had to do something as I was going crazy. I felt that I couldn't move forward otherwise.

So my choices were to stop and end the relationship completely, or totally forgive.

For my situation, forgiveness was the right answer for me. I have never looked back and found it to be the best thing I ever did for that relationship.

BTW, I never told the person in question what I did. I had debated with whether I should tell them, but decided that it wasn't necessary. Even after all this time, I have never told them.

[TheFlyingMan]

Thank you Jill, Thank you Gary.

Gary I have been using the first week of your course a few weeks ago, it is awesome. I went on holiday after the first week, so I haven't used the other 3 parts of the first three, I'll check them out and then most likely purchase the whole course.

[Liara Covert]

I like the postings on this thread and agree its good to recognize we do the best we can as individuals at a given time. No reason to regret the past.

My own experience is forgiveness can be difficult if I let emotions control me. It gets easier to let go. I've come to see each interaction is an opportunity to learn about why I may wish to judge others or impose my views on them. Now, when I consider forgiving others, I ask if I have reason to forgive myself as well. Two sides to every story (mine and theirs) are worthy of attention.

In one work case, a co-worker accused me of discrimination when I hadn't done what I was accused of doing. This episode led to my employer threatening to fire me. My initial emotions were shock, surprise, disbelief and then anger. Each time I tried to point out there must've been a misunderstanding and try to defend myself, it was the accuser's word against mine. In my mind, he wasn't being irrational, but he had worked there longer, had more seniority and political clout. His behaviour hurt me, but I also learned to ask myself why the office reactions bothered me more generally. I realized my accuser had a temper and a big chip on his shoulder. He decided he had it out for me. There wasn't much I could do about that. Yet, I could control how I reacted and how I could turn the situation to my advantage.

Through this experience, I learned it can make sense to accept and forgive an untruth so long as we learn to grasp the bigger picture. I'm not a vengeful person and I didn't see how fighting it out would've accomplished anything. Before this incident, I hadn't been developing much in the work setting. I wasn't really challenged. I sensed it wasn't the best place for me. I was in transition. I had made efforts to seek other options, but didn't pursue them far enough. I grew to recognize that work environment wasn't assisting me to grow. I decided to seek situations more compatible with my values and beliefs. I didn't lose my job over this. But the tense atmosphere led me to leave and use my skills to help people in more fulfilling ways.

In personal relationships, I have also known people who treated me in ways that were less than acceptable. Yet, it was only in being mistreated that I clarified what my limits are. Much like Jill describes, I find that forgivness lets negative emotions go and leaves me free to focus on building meaningful ties. I'm also reminded that the people who give me reason to forgive them are the ones that probably need it most because they may not know how to forgive themselves. They may not be used to being treated with compassion.

[Mercury_Rising]

3) And most important, when thoughts of the past hurt pops into your head, and you immediately switch your thoughts, is that escaping from it, or is it a step in forgiving?

I'd venture to say that if you "immediately switch your thoughts", you are inadvertently strengthening these thoughts. When we shove our thoughts under the rug, the rug will some day have to be swept.

My suggestion is to work with the thoughts. By this I do not mean analyzing them or rehashing them or "working" them. Instead, place your attention on the emotion that underlies the thought. By truly feeling this, it is my opinion that you will more easily be able to forgive in the long run.

Here is an article that may help:
Facing Challenging Situations Authentically

Good Luck!

[MGJ]

I'm currently researching and drafting an article on the whole concept of forgiveness and self forgiveness. I've come across a lot of good research material but in the process of assimilating the information I have come to the conclusion that forgiveness has nothing to do with the other individual.

Forgiveness is not something that you can or cannot do. It is simply a matter of choosing to change your thoughts, beliefs and ideas about a given situation or person in your life.

By not forgiving another, or by not allowing their energy to leave you, you are allowing the pain and the abuse to continue. So the only decision that you have to make regarding forgiveness is this: Am I willing to let go of the pain and abuse, or will I allow this person or situation to persecute me for the rest of this life?

Here's another way of thinking about it. If you believe in the concept of creating your own life, then your focused conscious or unconscious thoughts have drawn circumstances to you that have created a certain event that has entered into your life. In the end, if you created the reality, you need to forgive yourself. I'm not sure I expressed the idea very clearly, but in essence, if you create your life, the events that are drawn in are your creations. If there is any forgiving to be had... start with yourself since you created it.

It's a fascinating subject... good luck on your journey.

[TheFlyingMan]

Thanks for the responses guys...

I'm not sure what happened (I'm doing lots of things at the same time - The Work, meditation, and so on) but a day or so after making this post a major chunk of anger/sadness over this event just dropped.

I'll try and figure out what happened and post here for those who are also interested in this journey.