Positive thinking or denial?

[dwixi]

How do you tell the difference?

Cant denial get into you so much that It makes you believe something bad couldn't happen?
Thanks.

[missing]

my way of telling is this. If you are deliberately ignoring stuff you don't like by giving it no attention whatsoever, you are in denial. If you are acknowledging the stuff you don't like but are not dwelling on it or letting it prevent you from proceeding with whatever it is you want to do, than you are thinking positively. True positivity can't exist without negativity, so it not only acknowledges it's polar opposite, but welcomes and appreciates it. True positivity is very difficult because it's easy to get caught up in how negative stuff will hold you back.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by dwixi

How do you tell the difference?

Cant denial get into you so much that It makes you believe something bad couldn't happen?
Thanks.

I have seen positive thinking exclude the negative but the negative keeps coming back. Denial would be in not seeing the repetitious behaviour. In one sense it isn't denial but unawareness. You will know you are not denying it when you use positive thinking to deal with it.

[JaredR]

Most of the Abraham-Hicks material is denial. Positive thinking isn't non-attention to negative aspects; it's proper perspective on them.

[Jarrod]

Positive thinking is not denial, denial is more like willful ignorance whereas positive thinking is more like altering your perspective on something.

Bad and good, what is the difference? Just how you look at the situation.

Personally I think you should not see things as good or bad, rather to just see things as they are. This enables you a lot more freedom.

If 'bad' and 'good' are not in your vocabulary that nothing 'bad' could happen indeed.

[Brutha]

If you are highly aligned with truth as Steve described it in his book (you might want to reread the chapter), you aren't in denial.

[mindfulconstruct]

I tend to think that only trial-and-error will tell. I mean, denial is stealth, it recruits your subconscious, which is a powerful force...you have to be mindful, honest, and determined to discover how your subconscious is at work in your life and your behaviors. Sometimes it takes a lot of time, and a lot of help from others, not to mention, taking a good look in the mirror, to be able to look back and say, "Hey, that positive thinking was a tactic of denial."

But, I don't think the subconscious has total roam--we are definitely capable of being introspective and really seeing the motives behind our behaviors, as long as we remain connected to our feelings.

[Starman]

Originally Posted by Jarrod

Positive thinking is not denial, denial is more like willful ignorance whereas positive thinking is more like altering your perspective on something.

Bad and good, what is the difference? Just how you look at the situation.

Personally I think you should not see things as good or bad, rather to just see things as they are. This enables you a lot more freedom.

If 'bad' and 'good' are not in your vocabulary that nothing 'bad' could happen indeed.

I tend to believe something like this. Positive or negative thinking to me is putting a slant or a spin on what we perceive.

I think of it this way: if a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to have a positive or negative opinion about what happened, what opinion gets ... well, I can't even complete the sentence because it doesn't make any sense, an opinion can't happen without a person to associate some kind of meaning to the event, to create an opinion.

Denial is very subtle. Most people wouldn't outright deny that something happened, what they deny is the consequence of it, the extent of the consequences, and whether the consequences are ultimately good or bad. See, there's that association of good or bad again, so in my mind even denial is a slant or meaning we place on something that happened or didn't happen.

So opinion becomes a tool: what positive or negative do I associate with this thing that's going on to get the consequence I want?

Whichever one works, or answers the question in the positive.

[NyraSponge]

Originally Posted by Jarrod

Positive thinking is not denial, denial is more like willful ignorance whereas positive thinking is more like altering your perspective on something.

Bad and good, what is the difference? Just how you look at the situation.

Personally I think you should not see things as good or bad, rather to just see things as they are. This enables you a lot more freedom.

If 'bad' and 'good' are not in your vocabulary that nothing 'bad' could happen indeed.

Well, it sounds to me that you don't believe in "either or" but absolutes.
I think if we ignore the bad and good concept and just look at the situation as undefined, we might be happier people and waste less energy.
I believe that without a comparison there is nothing. You wouldn't know happiness if you had nothing to compare it to, I.E. sadness etc. But I say that is an interesting perspective there.

[ming]

I think positive thinking more often than not is delusional.

[Jarrod]

Originally Posted by NyraSponge

I believe that without a comparison there is nothing.

More so, there is only one thing. Even if that one thing is called nothing (or everything).

And yes, experience is wonderful.

[NyraSponge]

Originally Posted by Jarrod

More so, there is only one thing. Even if that one thing is called nothing (or everything).

And yes, experience is wonderful.

Nothing is still something.

And as I like to say it's always something. There's always something.

[cacheborn]

Positive thinking means no matter what you always have a choice. You acknowledge that there is a problem but you do not give up in despair. Instead, you try to solve the problem with all of your creativity. Positive thinking does not mean all is well and you don't have a worry in the world. Infact its quite the opposite.
For instance, I am going to lose my job at the end of summer. In this case, positive thinking does not mean I ignore the situation and do nothing. It means I actively persue all the avenues of finding a job that I like, also keep the possibility that I may not get it for quite some time. And in that case, activate plan B, take a vacation and do some creative things that I have been wanting to do since long time.

[Ralph]

The simplest and most precise I could get is this:

Denial is ignoring bad stuff, not even acknowledging that it exists.
Optimism is acknowledging and reframing bad stuff so it doesn't look so bad anymore. It still is the same stuff, but if you look at it from a different perspective, it can be at least a bit more empowering.

[NyraSponge]

I agree to that. AMEN!

[NyraSponge]

Originally Posted by mindfulconstruct

I tend to think that only trial-and-error will tell. I mean, denial is stealth, it recruits your subconscious, which is a powerful force...you have to be mindful, honest, and determined to discover how your subconscious is at work in your life and your behaviors. Sometimes it takes a lot of time, and a lot of help from others, not to mention, taking a good look in the mirror, to be able to look back and say, "Hey, that positive thinking was a tactic of denial."

But, I don't think the subconscious has total roam--we are definitely capable of being introspective and really seeing the motives behind our behaviors, as long as we remain connected to our feelings.

Can you give me an example of someone who isn't connected to their feelings, or thoughts?

[NyraSponge]

I think we need both negativity and positivity to inform us and others of where we stand.

There must be line drawn somewhere so that you aren' confused about everything as I am.

I don't even see lines.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by NyraSponge

I think we need both negativity and positivity to inform us and others of where we stand.

It could be to inform us of who we are and then we decide where we stand.

There must be line drawn somewhere so that you aren' confused about everything as I am.

I don't even see lines.

No lines, just lots of greys.

[NyraSponge]

Originally Posted by Maguru

It could be to inform us of who we are and then we decide where we stand.



No lines, just lots of greys.

Then in my view I have alot of grey areas.

[mindfulconstruct]

Originally Posted by NyraSponge

Can you give me an example of someone who isn't connected to their feelings, or thoughts?

People can use addictive/compulsive behaviors to disconnect from how they are really feeling, by altering their brain chemistry, moods, state of mind, etc., or by essentially numbing themselves. And as a result, they are also disconnected from the respective thoughts that underpin those feelings.

So if someone feels guilty about failing a test because they think that they should have passed for whatever reason... and instead of feeling and working through the guilt, they go out and get intoxicated... they disconnect from their feelings and will have a harder time reconnecting to the thoughts that led to the guilt. In other words, they'll have a harder time learning how to change those thoughts that led to the guilt, and the same guilt pattern will likely repeat itself the next time they fail a test that they think they should have passed for whatever reason.

[Dreamline]

If you are thinking positively and aligning yourself with positivity and your life just gets better and better, you feel like you are 'in the zone' and things just start falling into place, it's positive thinking doing it's best work.

If you are thinking positive and your life gets harder and harder, weirder or worse, you are probably in denial about a great many things.

The definition is actually more of an experiential thing.

Cant denial get into you so much that It makes you believe something bad couldn't happen?

Yes. Of course. But positivity, genuine positivity can show you that the idea of "bad" no longer exists for some people. They just no longer recognize bad as a viable condition. That's not denial. That is a paradigm shift. It's an elevation to a higher state of being.

Bad, for all intents, is a judgement call. For the person that believes in eternal life and/or reincarnation, even death, the thing most of us fear above all else, isn't even a bad thing. It's just the next step on the journey.

So I guess when one gets to that stage, denial is completely negated anyway.

Jennifer

[ar81]

Denial takes place when you refuse to see something.
Being positive is to find positive things in everything.
Those are unconnected if you ask me.

[WordKeeper]

ar81 - I agree that they are separate issues but for years I was surrounded by happy (positive) people who lived in a bubble of denial, who denied the painful reality of my life and so I saw "positive" and "denial" as synonyms.

About 10 years ago, aware of the dark slide of negativism, I began a pursuit of positive thinking. I have learned in this interim that while there is a distinct difference the two are often conflated and that many people prefer to live in the fantasy world of denial.

"Leave it to them," you might say but the down side is that people living in that bubble also live in an empathy free world cut off by the incisor of denial. There is a great danger in living in an empathy free world - enter the kingdom of Narcissism.

[cylon]

There's a difference between empathy, and enabling.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by cylon

There's a difference between empathy, and enabling.

Agreed. If you *need* empathy from others, otherwise you blame them for your bad feelings and judge them as bad/wrong/narcissistic, you're choosing to live as a chronic victim (It's a valid choice -- nothing wrong with that -- just not very powerful or effective in getting the results you want, or feeling good.)

[angorafedora]

I read in an addiction recovery book (paraphrasing) that there is a difference between whistling in the dark to keep your spirits up (which is based in irrational fear and denial), and living in the light because we proactively seek and work for it.

For example, I'm living with someone who is detrimental to my emotional growth. I don't like it, but if I were to tell myself, "they'll change in time" that would be denial. I know this because I know the truth about my thinking patterns and what usually happens when I try to react out of irrational fear. I work on setting and keeping boundaries with them, so as to keep myself sane, thus, positive thinking paired with proactively seeking what it is I need emotionally.

I really would love to deny this person exists and ignore them most of the time, but because I want to grow, I *get* to face my fears, as irrational as they may be. This always means facing the truth within myself.

I also cannot place expectations on myself, by telling myself that I can do it by myself without other human relationships that do help my spiritual growth, that would be denial. Instead I *get* to take risks with other people, and if and when I find they are emotionally trustworthy, I can feel safe to be emotionally vulnerable.

Might I also say that I just found this forum online and have not yet had the pleasure of reading Steve's book, because I didn't know there was one. I am ordering it now.

[Dreamline]

Originally Posted by WordKeeper

ar81 - I agree that they are separate issues but for years I was surrounded by happy (positive) people who lived in a bubble of denial, who denied the painful reality of my life and so I saw "positive" and "denial" as synonyms.

This reminds me of a good point: Denial, like we are talking about here, is often the result of someone else's judgement upon you. You could be happy as a clam and moving on with life and someone else would say you are "in denial" because you aren't feeling the expected societal levels of misery and guilt, anger and sadness and you aren't on ten pills for some bad experience or event in your life.

It would be like someone getting raped but deciding it's not going to cripple them and choosing to move on. Behind their back, people are saying "OH, she's in denial. It will all come busting out sooner or later. She should probably see someone..." You know. All the things people say when gossiping behind your back.


Jennifer