Why are we so tough on our moms?

[Becca Glouzstein]

I have a feeling it has to do with seeing the mother role as sacred - high expectations!
What do you think?

[SomeRandomGuy]

Interesting, my experience has always been just the opposite. It seems that most people give their parents a great deal of respect, even when they really don't deserve it. It seems that people often let their parents by with stuff they would never accept from anyone else. Most of the people I know feel obligated to have a good relationship with their parents, so go out of their way to try to maintain that relationship even if/when the parents' behavior does not deserve respect.

[Elrond]

Freud?

[Matt Willard]

Originally Posted by SomeRandomGuy

Interesting, my experience has always been just the opposite. It seems that most people give their parents a great deal of respect, even when they really don't deserve it. It seems that people often let their parents by with stuff they would never accept from anyone else. Most of the people I know feel obligated to have a good relationship with their parents, so go out of their way to try to maintain that relationship even if/when the parents' behavior does not deserve respect.

I don't really have this problem. My problem is more of forgiveness. My father did not have and still does not have my respect for being an utterly poor role model, but I do realize I have a lot of hate toward him, and he did have some major personal problems that probably influenced him negatively, so I think the best thing I can do is forgive his actions.

[Calvan]

Be careful with blanket statements like that, I for one am not tough on mom at all. I only actually know one person who is. Well, that depends on how you define 'tough'. In one respect this person isnt tough on her mom at all. So what do you mean by 'being tough on our moms" ?

[ar81]

I believe it has to do with our lack of understanding on how our parents are human and can make mistakes too. We lack some patience, some understanding of their humanity. And that's tough, because if we do not understand humanity of our loved ones, who will?

[RRR]

People are tough on their parents because it is natural as a child to feel your parents are perfect, they are your models for god. As you age you begin to see their human imperfections and this leads to disillusionment. As well you have to compensate for their imperfections which may have damaged you unknowingly throughout childhood. Being tough on your parents is a way of deflecting self-responsibility once you've reached the age where you are entirely responsible for your life. It may also be because you desire to drop them from your life yet cling on with undue loyalty.

edit: I saw this in another thread.. its about procrastination being caused by being treated as slaves as children.
YouTube - Procrastination...

This is why I am harsh on my parents and most authority figures.

[Becca Glouzstein]

Originally Posted by RRR

People are tough on their parents because it is natural as a child to feel your parents are perfect, they are your models for god. As you age you begin to see their human imperfections and this leads to disillusionment. As well you have to compensate for their imperfections which may have damaged you unknowingly throughout childhood. Being tough on your parents is a way of deflecting self-responsibility once you've reached the age where you are entirely responsible for your life. It may also be because you desire to drop them from your life yet cling on with undue loyalty.

edit: I saw this in another thread.. its about procrastination being caused by being treated as slaves as children.
YouTube - Procrastination...

This is why I am harsh on my parents and most authority figures.

Good points, RRR. And thanks for that link - it's got me thinking about my parenting...!

[marinik]

OK now I am a child, my parents are still alive and living with me, and I am a parent/mother to 4 grown kids, the oldest 31 pregnant and the youngest 18 - gone to college.

The most interesting thing is that I can't forget and some things forgive my parents. But on the other hand I can understand how much they love me and tried to do their best being a parent myself.

So the situation is pretty schizophrenic standing on both sides of the stick. I am petrified that my kids will also have these issues with me but will understand when they have their own child. Forgive everything, forget most of the stuff that hurtsw? I don't think it is possible. We hold this to teach us what not to do, repeat as parents. But there are always new ways of making mistakes and we are just human although we adore you totally and love you unconditionally.

The good part that we are all very happy and successful people. My parents, me and my husband and my kids. And we talk and talk and talk and are all very close.

[missing]

because creating a conscious life comes with incredible responsibility. Most parents can't measure up. I certainly couldn't, but I didn't go and multiply. They did. Ergo, we should be tough on them. I disagree with the thread title, as most people give parents way too much respect, for no good reason. It's ingrained in most cultures.

[Matt Willard]

Originally Posted by missing

because creating a conscious life comes with incredible responsibility. Most parents can't measure up. I certainly couldn't, but I didn't go and multiply. They did. Ergo, we should be tough on them. I disagree with the thread title, as most people give parents way too much respect, for no good reason. It's ingrained in most cultures.

I disagree. No reason to be tough on someone who decided to have children, especially someone who decided to have you. It's their business.

For me, a parent deserves respect if he earns it by his parenting. No parent is perfect, of course, but that desire to improve should be there, and a desire to love and treat their children unconditionally, and learn from their mistakes. Most parents don't seem to get this picture.

[missing]

I disagree. No reason to be tough on someone who decided to have children, especially someone who decided to have you. It's their business.

I think this is a ridiculous statement. If their business effects me, it's my business. If somebody steals your identity and wipes out your bank account, do you just say "well, it was their decision, not my business". Just because one is socially condoned and one isn't, that doesn't make it inherently better.

For me, a parent deserves respect if he earns it by his parenting. No parent is perfect, of course, but that desire to improve should be there, and a desire to love and treat their children unconditionally, and learn from their mistakes. Most parents don't seem to get this picture.

I agree more with this. Parents who earn respect are more deserving of it. At the same time, they are never entitled to it. You can do everything right and your kid can still hate you. That's part of the risk you take for creating a conscious life with a mind of it's own.

[Matt Willard]

I think this is a ridiculous statement. If their business effects me, it's my business. If somebody steals your identity and wipes out your bank account, do you just say "well, it was their decision, not my business". Just because one is socially condoned and one isn't, that doesn't make it inherently better.

The thing is that you had no say in this. Your parents decided to have you and that was the deal. Since you didn't exist, you clearly couldn't have a say on the matter. You were an effect, not a cause. Blaming your parents for creating you isn't going to get you anywhere. Circumstances hand you stuff whether you want it or not. A part of the job of life is to do what you will with it. I can blame the rain all day if I got caught in it and got wet, but me getting wet is the effect and blaming the weather I had no control over will accomplish nothing.

I agree more with this. Parents who earn respect are more deserving of it. At the same time, they are never entitled to it. You can do everything right and your kid can still hate you. That's part of the risk you take for creating a conscious life with a mind of it's own.

Fair enough, but it is likely that you will probably hate your parent more if he's a bad parent as opposed to a good one.

[lifetimelearner]

touchy thread but I am tackling it anyway

I am tough on my mom for being such a whiny bit--

sounds tough I know but all my life she has done nothing but complain about her life

she drove my dad crazy and being such a daddy's girl I hated her for making him upset

he did everything he could to make her happy -but as we know if you ain't happy already no one can help you with that

as an adult I tried to rationalize that she was unhappy because of her unhappy childhood
but when you learn better you are supposed to do and act better

she never did

all I ever heard was -
"you guys won't care if I die"
so I reacted with guilt and did what she wanted me to do
until the next time....

I once accidently broke a glass at xmas -I was pregnant at the time and she laughed at me for crying about it and demanded I repay her for the glass

I gathered up the kids and left

I did that a lot

then later I just stopped talking to her for a while

recently at thanksgiving day all my mom did was complain about her sore back and all the things she had done for my sister that caused her sore back
and all the cooking she did etc etc.

later I was washing dishes and she was drying them and she turned and told my sister to make sure her 30 year old dishes didn't get sold in a yard sale after she died

I know that was for my ears because last year I had a yard sale and sold most of my stuff

material things mean nothing to me

but both my sisters and my mom are hoarders

yes she is my mom but

well what can you say!

[missing]

The thing is that you had no say in this. Your parents decided to have you and that was the deal. Since you didn't exist, you clearly couldn't have a say on the matter. You were an effect, not a cause. Blaming your parents for creating you isn't going to get you anywhere. Circumstances hand you stuff whether you want it or not. A part of the job of life is to do what you will with it. I can blame the rain all day if I got caught in it and got wet, but me getting wet is the effect and blaming the weather I had no control over will accomplish nothing.

good point. In the same vein I'd say this means that parents don't owe children anything (ie, care) and children don't owe parents anything (ie, respect). What each gives the other is a matter of personal interpretation. While it would be pointless to "blame" my parents for having me, I can still hold them accountable for their decisions, and act accordingly. I believe that many people feel as if parents are automatically entitled to respect without giving enough back to earn it. This pervades all cultures, and I consider it a mass form of ingrained power abuse. A child is completely dependent on a parent for many years, and is socially conditioned to see this abuse as "normal". They grow up, have kids, and transmit it to the next generation. By not having kids (if I manage it, I think I will), I'm doing my part to break this cycle. By speaking out against the culturally ingrained meme that parents are entitled to respect, I'm doing something else to try and destroy this destructive paradigm.

Fair enough, but it is likely that you will probably hate your parent more if he's a bad parent as opposed to a good one.

this is true. However, I look at it like a scale, where every child is born at "0" (number to indicate well being). This number can only go down in life, never up. Once it goes down, it can never come back. When people are "happy" it means the number is just staying put, and it only feels good in relation to lack of suffering. A parent can work extra hard to ensure the number never goes down, but it's a futile effort as life will always be working to push it deeper into the negatives. A good parent will mitigate this advance. A bad parent will encourage it. The latter is obviously worse, but the former is still bad. The good parent can keep their kid at -15, where the bad parent pushes them to -5000. And the person who has no kids ensures the number will always remain zero.

[Matt Willard]

good point. In the same vein I'd say this means that parents don't owe children anything (ie, care) and children don't owe parents anything (ie, respect). What each gives the other is a matter of personal interpretation. I believe that many people feel as if parents are automatically entitled to respect without giving enough back to earn it. This pervades all cultures, and I consider it a mass form of ingrained power abuse. A child is completely dependent on a parent for many years, and is socially conditioned to see this abuse as "normal". They grow up, have kids, and transmit it to the next generation. By not having kids (if I manage it, I think I will), I'm doing my part to break this cycle. By speaking out against the culturally ingrained meme that parents are entitled to respect, I'm doing something else to try and destroy this destructive paradigm.

If two people are going to bring a child into this world, it is their responsibility to make sure that child gets the love and care he or she needs. But I agree that, unless the parent earns that respect through love and care, they don't deserve it. I think a child does need to listen to their parent to learn about the world and grow, but it's a double-sided affair that both parties contribute to-the child listens to the parent and allows them to guide him or her, and the parent does so with kindness and respect.

this is true. However, I look at it like a scale, where every child is born at "0" (number to indicate well being). This number can only go down in life, never up. Once it goes down, it can never come back. When people are "happy" it means the number is just staying put, and it only feels good in relation to lack of suffering. A parent can work extra hard to ensure the number never goes down, but it's a futile effort as life will always be working to push it deeper into the negatives. A good parent will mitigate this advance. A bad parent will encourage it. The latter is obviously worse, but the former is still bad. The good parent can keep their kid at -15, where the bad parent pushes them to -5000. And the person who has no kids ensures the number will always remain zero.

Okay, but how can people who already exist learn to cope under this model? Surely a number closer to 0 is better than a number far away from 0. But people have bounced back from incredible odds and adversity, and gone on to live happy lives and inspire others. What does that mean under this model?

[lifetimelearner]

I used to think people should not have children unless they are mature and intelligent

now I think that unless you are EMOTIONALLY mature
DO NOT HAVE CHILDREN !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

your CRAP could ruin us emotionally and some people never recover !


some mentally handicapped people make better parents then people with what someone would call a 'normal 'intelligence because they know how to love without any hangups




now on the other foot I thank my mom for having me but that does not mean I have to respect her

sorry you have to earn that !

[missing]

If two people are going to bring a child into this world, it is their responsibility to make sure that child gets the love and care he or she needs. But I agree that, unless the parent earns that respect through love and care, they don't deserve it.

I think this is an idealistic view of parenting and child rearing. First off, I don't think parents have any responsibility to their children, at least nothing inherent. Proof? People are having kids all the time and refusing to own up and care for them. There seems to be little accountability for screwing up. Generally, the damaged kids reproduce on their own and the cycle continues, and the world's problems multiply. In rare cases parents perhaps do work hard to raise their kids right, and in this idealistic paradigm they do "deserve" respect. But they are not entitled to it, no matter how well they did. It's completely up to the child to decide how to treat their parents, just like it was completely up to the parents to have the child.

it's a double-sided affair that both parties contribute to-the child listens to the parent and allows them to guide him or her, and the parent does so with kindness and respect.

this is a dangerous thought process, and in my mind it's where the power abuse comes in to play. It's the idea that the parent always knows better, and thus is given full license to do whatever he/she wants to the kid "for their own good". It presumes that the child exists to be molded by the parent, rather than as an autonomous being. This is not kindness and respect, this is coercion. In fact, when done in a "kind, respectful" manner, that's almost worse, because it confuses the child emotionally.

Okay, but how can people who already exist learn to cope under this model? Surely a number closer to 0 is better than a number far away from 0. But people have bounced back from incredible odds and adversity, and gone on to live happy lives and inspire others. What does that mean under this model?

The way to cope is to halt the push into negativity. However, as your example points out, it's not always so simple. Somebody who "bounces back" is likely somebody who was falling fast, and managed to halt their fall. It doesn't change the fact that they have fallen. The fact that they are now "happy" and "inspire" people comes from a number of factors;

- the fact that they are no longer falling feels pretty damn good, when they are acclimated to falling. This gets confused with "happiness".

- falling generally feels worse than staying put. Falling faster feels worse than falling slowly. Somebody who goes from -10 to -50 over night will be feeling much worse than somebody who is stuck on -100, and took many years to get there.

- Also, falling in "higher" numbers is harder. The lower you go, the easier it gets, as you are adapted to falling. Going from 0 to -100 is much harder than going from -100 to -200, exponentially (like the Richter scale). Going from -900 to -1000 is nothing. Somebody who has fallen a great deal gains confidence (and false happiness) because they have already fallen the first (and thus hardest) rungs. As they enjoy the alleviation of staying put, they feel better knowing that in case they fall again, they can handle it.

None of this is to say that when anybody falls past a certain number, they will snap. Depends on the individual. Staying at zero is feels the best but it's surrounded by anxiety knowing that you can always fall.

[Matt Willard]

Originally Posted by missing

I think this is an idealistic view of parenting and child rearing. First off, I don't think parents have any responsibility to their children, at least nothing inherent. Proof? People are having kids all the time and refusing to own up and care for them. There seems to be little accountability for screwing up. Generally, the damaged kids reproduce on their own and the cycle continues, and the world's problems multiply

Ah, but why is this the case? When we are born, we are blank slates. We are influenced by the people we spend time with and the enviroment that surrounds us. Why do a lot of parents do a poor job raising their children? More often than not, it was a result of their own upbringing. As long as we continue poor traditions learned from the people who brought us up, the world's problems will indeed multiply. So what can we do to fix the problem? First, we can accept that we're not perfect, and seek to improve ourselves, and secondly, we can improve our ability to raise a child and treat him or her with kindess and respect. Change takes time, of course, but if we sow the seeds of these tools that we use to raise our children, there's a good chance that it will be passed on to our grandchildren, and then our great grandchildren, and so on and so on. Change starts with us. We were handed a particular set of circumstances. It's up to us to shape them into something positive for the present and future generations.

this is a dangerous thought process, and in my mind it's where the power abuse comes in to play. It's the idea that the parent always knows better, and thus is given full license to do whatever he/she wants to the kid "for their own good". It presumes that the child exists to be molded by the parent, rather than as an autonomous being. This is not kindness and respect, this is coercion. In fact, when done in a "kind, respectful" manner, that's almost worse, because it confuses the child emotionally.

I can see how this can get out of hand. As a parent, your job is to shape the child, but there's a fine line to walk here. There are some things you should allow your child to do by themself, and some things that are better off if you took an active role. For the record, I believe that unschooling is a more positive form of education than public schooling, and that it's a vital tool in allowing the child some control of their life. However, as a parent, you do need to take some action, because the child doesn't know better. It's a balancing issue in the end.

By the way, what brings you to believe in this system of falling from zero?

[RRR]

freedomainradio.com has a lot of podcasts on the nature of families. He is the guy from the procrastination video I posted earlier. I've been on a podcast binge ever since I watched that video, fascinating and worth exploring.

As children we are slaves. Very few parents treat their children with respect and instead bully them and force them throughout their lives. The only choices a child has about their life is whether they want hamburgers or hotdogs. They are sent to federal brainwashing camps from age 6-18, where they are scrubbed of all individuality. They are socially conditioned to believe their parents are moral, ethical, and good. When infact it turns out parents are often very conforming, hardly ethical, and overall bad, boring, or neglegent.

Societal conditioning tells us to honor our parents, to obey them, it absolutely ludicris. These are your prison guards. They abuse the word love, they abuse passive agression, and they abuse sentimentality to ensure, to ensure that you will be around to help them when they are feeble and old. They try to harbor in you undue love, undue attachment, when in fact they deserve not. You should not pretend to love your parents if you do not. If when your parents came home as children you thought, "oh no" or generally they did not bring you joy YOU OWE THEM NOTHING. Parents choose to have children. Children do not choose parents. Having sex does not make you moral, having babies does not make you deserving of love, too many parents use rearing as an excuse to be horrible people, and they mistake their childs biological attachment for love.

Parents on the whole are bad people. "they try their best", which of course they really do not, but they are on average so horrible at parenting that its hard for us to complain. Well they may have been boring, neglectful, uninspiring, resentful, and crushed every sense of authority and individuality I had over my life, but atleast they didnt beat me!! Screw bad parents. There should be consequences for bad parenting.

[missing]

Ah, but why is this the case? When we are born, we are blank slates. We are influenced by the people we spend time with and the enviroment that surrounds us. Why do a lot of parents do a poor job raising their children? More often than not, it was a result of their own upbringing. As long as we continue poor traditions learned from the people who brought us up, the world's problems will indeed multiply. So what can we do to fix the problem? First, we can accept that we're not perfect, and seek to improve ourselves, and secondly, we can improve our ability to raise a child and treat him or her with kindess and respect. Change takes time, of course, but if we sow the seeds of these tools that we use to raise our children, there's a good chance that it will be passed on to our grandchildren, and then our great grandchildren, and so on and so on. Change starts with us. We were handed a particular set of circumstances. It's up to us to shape them into something positive for the present and future generations

I think the first step would be to simply not reproduce. The world will not suffer a bio-diversity crisis without some individuals dna. If you want to transmit values like kindness and respect, find people who are already here, preferably those whose parents have failed them. Another thing to do is seek to educate those who don't know any better. I think many people have children out of sheer ignorance (not an excuse mind you). They don't understand the burden they place on that new being, or delude themselves into thinking they do that child a "favor" (and demand payback for the "gift"). This problem seems to transcend social and cultural classes, although in the developed world people have less kids as they seem to understand the expense of middle class expectations. Comparatively, the undeveloped world is a disaster.

I can see how this can get out of hand. As a parent, your job is to shape the child, but there's a fine line to walk here. There are some things you should allow your child to do by themself, and some things that are better off if you took an active role. For the record, I believe that unschooling is a more positive form of education than public schooling, and that it's a vital tool in allowing the child some control of their life. However, as a parent, you do need to take some action, because the child doesn't know better. It's a balancing issue in the end.

I think solutions like "unschooling" are merely a form of damage control. Can they work better for raising a child? Sure. But they can also be worse, if you fail to give the kid structure, or raise them with expectations out of line with the rest of society. Granted, I think society is a mess, so in a certain sense this would be good. But if I felt that way, why would I have kids at all? It would be truly cruel on my part to knowingly force conscious beings into a sick society.

I agree it's a balancing issue, but for most of us (all?) this is an extraordinarily difficult if not impossible task. Why take it on at all? You wouldn't agree to fly a fully loaded 747 passenger jet if you had no (or very little) experience with flying planes. It would be truly immoral to risk passengers lives that way (says me). Raising a child is no less complex than flying a jet (probably more) and most people have similarly little experience, yet they think it's perfectly ok to take on this job. It's pure insanity!

By the way, what brings you to believe in this system of falling from zero?

it would be fairly complex to outline everything in my life that leads me to this belief system. Mostly just the idea that suffering is not necessary, the potential of suffering is just as bad as suffering itself, and that happiness is merely temporary alleviation from suffering. I'm sure I'm not the first to come up with these ideas, but I seem to be in the minority by seriously considering them. Most cannot accept that life might be a curse rather than a blessing. A sick cosmic joke rather than a precious gift. This is understandable. It's a scary thought. But the consequences of pushing it aside are very real for other beings. By ignoring the misery, we perpetuate it.

Granted, it might be that in the bigger picture life is a gift. But why take the chance?

[Matt Willard]

Originally Posted by missing

I think the first step would be to simply not reproduce. The world will not suffer a bio-diversity crisis without some individuals dna. If you want to transmit values like kindness and respect, find people who are already here, preferably those whose parents have failed them. Another thing to do is seek to educate those who don't know any better. I think many people have children out of sheer ignorance (not an excuse mind you). They don't understand the burden they place on that new being, or delude themselves into thinking they do that child a "favor" (and demand payback for the "gift"). This problem seems to transcend social and cultural classes, although in the developed world people have less kids as they seem to understand the expense of middle class expectations. Comparatively, the undeveloped world is a disaster.

Oh, you should definitely seek to spread kindness and respect toward others who are already here, as well as educate them. I'm just saying it's wise to spread that toward children as well.

I think solutions like "unschooling" are merely a form of damage control. Can they work better for raising a child? Sure. But they can also be worse, if you fail to give the kid structure, or raise them with expectations out of line with the rest of society. Granted, I think society is a mess, so in a certain sense this would be good. But if I felt that way, why would I have kids at all? It would be truly cruel on my part to knowingly force conscious beings into a sick society.

The children are our future, so the song goes or whereever that quote's from. Again, the choice is with us, and we can use the power we have to shape present and future generations. We slowly changed to become the society we are now. We can slowly change back with concentrated effort.

I agree it's a balancing issue, but for most of us (all?) this is an extraordinarily difficult if not impossible task. Why take it on at all? You wouldn't agree to fly a fully loaded 747 passenger jet if you had no (or very little) experience with flying planes. It would be truly immoral to risk passengers lives that way (says me). Raising a child is no less complex than flying a jet (probably more) and most people have similarly little experience, yet they think it's perfectly ok to take on this job. It's pure insanity!

"Families across America were saddened today as little Timmy Gallagher of 1414 River Drive fell off his biek and scraped his knee, resulting in the death of fifty-six people.

'You should've seen what happened when he broke his arm,' his father reported.

We were unable to secure an interview with Timmy, due to his pre-occupation with crashing Hot Wheels into buildings made of Legos."

Sorry, couldn't resist

I'm not sure what drives people to become parents. But I've seen people that have risen above and beyond the task, and become expectional parents to their children. It's all a matter of having the strength and desire to take up the challenge, and having the willingness to improve where they falter. And hey, you try taking a 747 to the bathroom, that requires strength right there :V

it would be fairly complex to outline everything in my life that leads me to this belief system. Mostly just the idea that suffering is not necessary, the potential of suffering is just as bad as suffering itself, and that happiness is merely temporary alleviation from suffering. I'm sure I'm not the first to come up with these ideas, but I seem to be in the minority by seriously considering them. Most cannot accept that life might be a curse rather than a blessing. A sick cosmic joke rather than a precious gift. This is understandable. It's a scary thought. But the consequences of pushing it aside are very real for other beings. By ignoring the misery, we perpetuate it.

Granted, it might be that in the bigger picture life is a gift. But why take the chance?

If you think life is a joke, why do you continue to exist and be miserable? Seriously-what gives you the will to continue living?

[funchy]

Because it's easy. Because we can. Because they love us and will put up with a lot, even our disrespect. Because we see in them the things we dislike about ourselves.

[missing]

The children are our future, so the song goes or whereever that quote's from. Again, the choice is with us, and we can use the power we have to shape present and future generations. We slowly changed to become the society we are now. We can slowly change back with concentrated effort.

This assumes that things used to be better, but was it really? Some people romanticize a past, a time before consumerism and selfish values took over. But if that time was so great, why did we abandon it? Perhaps now that we've attained enough comfort, we see that it doesn't lead to happiness, and the moral thing to do would be to phase humans out of existence as painlessly as possible. Perhaps the best future is no future.

"Families across America were saddened today as little Timmy Gallagher of 1414 River Drive fell off his biek and scraped his knee, resulting in the death of fifty-six people.

'You should've seen what happened when he broke his arm,' his father reported.

We were unable to secure an interview with Timmy, due to his pre-occupation with crashing Hot Wheels into buildings made of Legos."

Sorry, couldn't resist

yea I don't get it.

I'm not sure what drives people to become parents. But I've seen people that have risen above and beyond the task, and become expectional parents to their children. It's all a matter of having the strength and desire to take up the challenge, and having the willingness to improve where they falter. And hey, you try taking a 747 to the bathroom, that requires strength right there :V

I think if you've got a 747 in the bathroom you've got bigger issues than lack of strength. As for good parents, it's nice things worked out for them. But they were gambling with lives not their own. Doesn't seem right but that's just me. What do I know? I'm just the weirdo who thinks having kids is immoral.

If you think life is a joke, why do you continue to exist and be miserable? Seriously-what gives you the will to continue living?

It'd be easy to just refer you to Hamlet. Why come up with my own answer when literary geniuses have already done it for me? How do I know what lies beyond life doesn't suck more? That it isn't a bigger, sicker and more depraved joke? Aside from that, I'm acclimated to life for now. I hate change, and what can be a bigger change than to go from life to death? That said, my life right now isn't that difficult. Rest assured that if I see serious challenges that are unavoidable (ie, a societal collapse, a disease, etc), I will be one of the first people lining up to jump off the bridge. In the meantime, I'm going to enjoy the pleasant diversions life has to offer and distract myself from the futility of existence anyway I can. Just like anybody else.

[The NorthStar of Hope]

Well, I'll speak from a religious point of view .. I'm a Muslim :

TEN REASONS FOR BEING THANKFUL TO YOUR MOTHER:

1. YOUR MOTHER CARRIED YOU IN HER STOMACH FOR 9 MONTHS BEARING PAIN UPON PAIN!

2. DURING THIS TIME, SHE COULD NOT EAT BECAUSE OF YOU! SHE COULD NOT SLEEP BECAUSE OF YOU!

3. WHEN YOU WERE A BABY; SHE SPENT EVERY MINUTE OF HER LIFE LOOKING AFTER YOU!

4. SHE ONLY SLEPT WHEN YOU SLEPT! SHE ONLY ATE AFTER YOU HAD EATEN!

5. SHE WAS PATIENT AND LOVED YOU EVEN WHEN YOU CRIED ALL NIGHT, AND WHEN YOU CRIED ALL DAY!

6. SHE TAUGHT YOU HOW TO WALK, HOW TO SPEAK, HOW TO EAT, SHE TAUGHT YOU HOW TO LIVE!

7. WHEN YOU FALL ILL, SHE LOOKS AFTER YOU!

8. SHE ALWAYS COOKS AND PREPARES FOOD FOR YOU!

9. SHE BUYS YOU WHATEVER YOU ASK FOR!

10. SHE WILL ALWAYS LOVE YOU, NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO! \

Aren't these enough reasons to keep us fully obedient to her?.

After all, I believe NO MATTER WHAT your mom does, you are still obligated to love & respect her & never upset or offend her in anyway..

Regards,
Mustafa

[marinik]

Missing I am truly sorry for what you hold as your truth inside of you. I don't know what it is but feel that the anger is so strong that you do not want to see other peoples truths that are as valid as yours is. You seem very intelligent and educated. But I think you might need to do something else and not to judge people's opinions on these forums with such defiance.

[missing]

Originally Posted by marinik

Missing I am truly sorry for what you hold as your truth inside of you. I don't know what it is but feel that the anger is so strong that you do not want to see other peoples truths that are as valid as yours is. You seem very intelligent and educated. But I think you might need to do something else and not to judge people's opinions on these forums with such defiance.

I think you might be putting too much stock in my words. I don't see my truths as any more valid than other peoples. If I come across as abrasive it's just because I want to be clear. My views often go against what most people assume is truth, and as a result I sometimes feel the need to be louder and harsher to get noticed above the roar of the crowd. Perhaps it's not the most diplomatic habit, but that's fine with me. I'm looking for truth more so than friends (though both would be nice, I'll go with the former every time). I'm not even saying that my own views are set in stone and can't change. It's just that I feel they need a voice that is often neglected.

There is no need to be sorry, unless that is what you want.

[Matt Willard]

Originally Posted by missing

I think you might be putting too much stock in my words. I don't see my truths as any more valid than other peoples. If I come across as abrasive it's just because I want to be clear. My views often go against what most people assume is truth, and as a result I sometimes feel the need to be louder and harsher to get noticed above the roar of the crowd. Perhaps it's not the most diplomatic habit, but that's fine with me. I'm looking for truth more so than friends (though both would be nice, I'll go with the former every time). I'm not even saying that my own views are set in stone and can't change. It's just that I feel they need a voice that is often neglected.

There is no need to be sorry, unless that is what you want.

Look, just respect my views and I'll respect yours, okay? Well, I want to respect other people's views no matter what, but you get what I mean.

[missing]

Originally Posted by Matt Willard

Look, just respect my views and I'll respect yours, okay? Well, I want to respect other people's views no matter what, but you get what I mean.

no disrespect is meant by this discussion on my end. I do think your ideas are selfish and wrong, but that doesn't mean I'm correct, or on any kind of moral high ground. I don't really think less of you for your ideas, no more than I do the rest of the world. You seem well intentioned, as people often are. Alas, they can also be misguided, which may or may not be the case with you. I simply do not have enough info to tell.

Now, maybe the comment with the eye roll was a bit much, but I'm just making a point re: how my POV gets looked at by most people. Your viewpoint is in the majority and gets validated by society quite often. Most people think having kids is good. To them I am insane! It makes you wonder sometimes if they aren't right, but in the end you have to get your answers from within, not from others.

Ultimately, I think people can do what they want with their lives, but I do wish they'd think more about the effects of their actions on other people.

[Matt Willard]

Unfortunately, I don't think there ever can be a happy medium due to everyone's large difference of ideas and opinions, so the next best thing I think we as people can do is learn empathy, respect, and tolerance for others. At least that way, we don't get minor inconvienences like the Crusades