self doubting tendancies

[striving4peace]

let me write a quick summary about myself. i am a 29 year old man who is a virgin.
i'm in moderate shape (though i grew up overweight, and more importantly with a horrible body image) in conservative parts of the world.

sometime ago i posted about reaching a point in my life where i was transitioning and reviewing my life beliefs. i made a lot of progress at the time.

regardless of a long and complicated life story which i shall not get into i am focusing on the future. in a nutshell I am making a lot of progress in making huge changes in the coming months like multiplying my salary by a factor of 5 (by gaining a very coveted qualification), moving out of my parent's place, getting completely fit thanks to enlisting a personal trainer and going to the gym every day and working out / dieting with dedication. i hope to add having a relationship / getting married to the list soon.

and i know having confidence is a big part of attracting a girl, and so am working on building it.

however some days i'm still suffering from a bit of self doubt. i know the answers to these questions but they still haunt me some days. questions like "did i miss out on what could have been the best sexual years of my life?"
"am i any less of a man, or have i truly not lived life yet?"
"is the fact that i am a virgin proof that i'm not attractive, or what women would want?"
"do people look at me with pity or as someone too stupid to try the best pleasure in life and scared to try it because of his insecurities?"

I know the answers as:
"no, because i was looking for a relationship, and nothing worked out, though i tried"
"i'm a man because I qualify in what i believe makes a man, and sexual history has nothing to do with being a real good man. and i've lived an amazing life otherwise"
"i am attractive. women have wanted to sleep with me."
"people respect me and think i'm one of the most awesome, kind and funny people ever. and they think i was smart, brave and lucky about this"

I know our thoughts, our perceptions make our reality too. which is why it is even more important to chose perceptions which are more empowering. and those answers are not lies or fantasy.

But i still have self doubting tendencies. I feel like asking the men out there whether i am wrong about my answers to those questions, but for the sake of trying to solidify my beliefs, i don't want to have to. But How do i overcome the self doubting tendancies permanently?

[striving4peace]

um... anyone?

I just want to know:
1) are my answers good enough for me to try and solidify as the pillars of my belief system, or am i deluded or wrong there?
2) how do i solidify them to the point where I don't doubt myself anymore and keep asking these questions?

[Parthon]

Just the fact that you have doubt in the answers means they aren't the right answers. And by right I don't mean "good enough", I mean that deep down in your bones the answer is true and genuine and it explains everything.

I'm a 28yo virgin myself, and I only came to the conclusion after many years: Sex is a healthy and fun activity, and shared with a loving partner can be one of the most spiritual and emotional connections you can have with another human being. This is the sort of thing I would only want with someone I greatly cared about, and I haven't met anyone like that yet. There are factors, like not deliberately going out and meeting hundreds of women, and not picking up randomly in bars or clubs which could have contributed, but that's all just excuses. If I really really wanted sex, I could have had it by now. I just don't want it badly enough, and I would prefer the companionship of a loving partner instead.

Your own truth will be one that resonates with you, and you won't doubt it. It's not something you figure out either, it's a unique thought with no leeway, it's either 100% true, or not true enough. You might come up with one that feels close, and if that's the case it needs much refinement, but it has to feel really close to the truth already, before you can adjust it.

As for the questions, here are my true and honest answers:
"did i miss out on what could have been the best sexual years of my life?" : Nopes! Noticed how most guys who are ***** hungry are complete idiots or tools. I'm glad I matured emotionally and spiritually instead. Also: I've heard people who are 60+ have more and better sex than 20 year olds. Crazy hey?
"am i any less of a man, or have i truly not lived life yet?" : HELL NO! I think the very fact that I think with my real brain means I'm more of a man. Just because a few dickbrains leading society think I need to have sex to be a man, that doesn't make it so.
"is the fact that i am a virgin proof that i'm not attractive, or what women would want?" Nopes, that depends on if I actually am ugly, and I'm not. I've gotten enough compliments and been hit on enough times to know it's not true. In the end, it's because I'm more discerning than your average shmoe.
"do people look at me with pity or as someone too stupid to try the best pleasure in life and scared to try it because of his insecurities?" For me: I've gotten compliments from people about my maturity because I'm still a virgin. Only those that put so much stock into something as common as sex are the ones that have a problem with it, and that's for them to deal with. Plus I've done many things "normal" shmoes wouldn't.

The self doubts will still come up, but your solid answers will allow you to knock them down with force. Each doubtful answer you find that doesn't suit you is also one you can dismiss as not the real truth. The truth will be empowering, uplifting and without doubt. If you keep searching for it you will find it, and that's all it really takes.

Good luck.

[striving4peace]

Thanks man

When I dig deep in my bones, I actually do feel the answers I have are right. But thats why I wonder why the doubts keep coming up. My theory is that it has to do with my psychological programming - having grown up the outcaste and even through college because I was mostly what people call "a fat geek struggling with social skills". I probably don't give enough weightage to my own answers as I would to others because I was mostly starved for acceptance. I suppose in someways that chronic starvation has become a sort of reflex, which I'm still trying to overcome.

But thank you. I identify with you enormoursly, and I wish you good luck too

[Alison Jenkins]

Sounds like you do know what is right for you but perhaps you doubt it because society as a whole has changed it's values and now sex before marriage is perfectly normal whereas a generation or two back your values would have been in keeping with society's normal and those having sex would be shunned.

You have to do what is right for you and NOBODY can tell you that. You know that you are not alone as someone in a similar position has posted.

Sex does mature with age and it's like a good bottle of red wine - just gets better and better. Most of that is to do with self acceptance and confidence

You will know when it feels right to have sex

Alison

[Cristal Lilly]

Originally Posted by striving4peace

When I dig deep in my bones, I actually do feel the answers I have are right. But thats why I wonder why the doubts keep coming up.

I'm just going to take a guess here as to what could be your roadblock.
from what I've read it seems that your primary motive for deciding to gain confidence is that it helps with getting a girl, and you want a relationship. while I think it's perfectly normal to want a relationship (and I think it's perfectly normal to not want one, but this is not your case), I would honestly advise you to not go after confidence so you can get the relationship. I really think you should go after getting confidence, but only for yourself. so that you'd have it. because you deserve to be confident and because that will make you an intrinsically happy person, no matter how life goes down.

especially when you factor in what you said about your tendency to constantly ask for other's approval.. your brain just might be getting conflicting messages here. on one hand, you're telling it you want to be more confident. and that means being really comfortable in your skin and not needing other people to know your value or approve of you. on the other hand, you're telling your brain you want confidence 'because it's a big part of attracting a girl'. which basically tells your brain that you want it so you can be approved by a girl, as in someone else. see where I'm going with this? if this is really going on, it would be no wonder your mind is resisting and constantly doubting, because it's simply completely confused by what on earth is it supposed to do now. basically, it's not your answers that might be causing this problem, it's your motives which are in direct conflict with your goal.

let me illustrate, it would be as if you were prone to spending all your money. and then you say to yourself that you want to be rich so you could spend more money. you set out to get rich, but every time you receive money, you spend it (because this is exactly why you wanted the money in the first place, so your brain is going to act accordingly) and then you wonder why can't you hold on to any money to actually get rich, and how come you're always going one step forward and then two steps back.
I hope this is a good analogy, it works in my head, I'm not sure though how I conveyed it here.

lastly, I'm not saying I KNOW what's going on in your head, or that I'm right.. but this is what I picked up on from your posts and I see nobody pointing it out, so in case I'm right, this could be a bad block for you. and you seem like a nice person, set to making your life feel good, which I think is a great cause. so I want to help. if you think I may be on to something here, I would advise you focus on building confidence because you deserve to be a healthy confident person. you know, do it just for yourself.

(oh and as to you being a virgin for a long time.. follow my purely logical thought process here. you grew up with a dreadful body image. I know how that's like, so that probably means you didn't really take consistent initiative. you also grew up in a conservative environment. conservative environment usually means it's expected by both sexes that the male is going to be taking consistent initiative to get the female. so females in a conservative environment will interpret lack of consistent initiative as a lack of interest, and being consistent with that, they won't take any initiative themselves because that is viewed as inapropriate and pushy. when you put those two and two together, you get the result you got and it has nothing to do with how you look or who you are. this to me seems obviously logical. I'm not sure if you thought of it that way, but you might want to try it on for size cause your rational mind might just agree with me here.)

[striving4peace]

@Alison Jenkins
Yes, it is hard when not just society as a whole, but some of your closest friends are people who have been pursuing sex freely and think nothing of virginity (for males) and casual sex / one night stands. We've had discussions where they have advocated thier path, but at the end I know they respect what I am, think and do - yet I sometimes wonder if I seem illogical (read scared, stupid) to them for abstaining - but that's probably just me.
I guess till very recently I was not ready to have sex - but I think I am now, but with someone I really connect with and care about. (and not because of some notion of them being able to care enough about me to 'bear' with the body image that I see - this was what I used to feel till recently)

@Cristal Lily
I understood your analogy, I think it's an accurate representation. It is a contradiction to be in that state of confidence, and to try to be confident to get the acceptance of the opposite gender.
I was trying to apply what I have understood about the dynamics of attraction: that women like confident men. It's not that I cannot talk to women or be funny - I just have never been able to reach levels of confidence where I could be sensual - and yes, not being able to initiate in an environment where girls asking guys out is unheard of, has it's problems. But I have to work with and through the system to get my objective. Now, I am honest when I say that the primary factor I have abstained is because I didn't find someone who I would have liked to have had a relationship with (or the truth is - the people I did find were not single or unavailable for other reasons)
But I want to ensure that if that opening did come along where I would have to seem attractive to a person I believe I could connect with - I don't want to fall short and slip into the 'friend' zone.
I feel though, that I could reach that level of confidence if I were to overcome the remenants of the bad body image I still carry - either by reaching a desired level of fitness or by learning to completely accept and deal with what I am (the latter obviously being a more permenant and lasting solution, but the former increasing my chances of attraction)

[Alison Jenkins]

You know I can tell you that all most all of your friends who have had one night stands / casual sex are often really insecure and will regret the behaviour they have done in their younger years. I work with many people who have a history of promiscuity and nobody has ever seen it as a great thing years later, although in their 20's it seemed ok. They also have to content with side effects of such behaviour:- cervical cancer, sexually transmitted diseases, low self esteem, pregnancy etc.

You have been able to decide what is right for you and now you are beginning to feel ready. I hope you find that special lady

Alison

[striving4peace]

Thanks Alison, I hope I find that special lady for me too. Till then (and this is consistent with most of the advice I have recieved till now) all I can do is focus on my fitness level and my career (both of which I'm doing the best I can to reach my ideal objectives) and try and balance a sufficient social life (one that doesn't prevent me from reachingn my goals) so as to not cut myself off from possible oppurtunities to meet new people.

[Alison Jenkins]

Sounds like you are doing everything right to meet your goals. It's funny new relationships often start when you least expect them.

Alison

[ar81]

We all have doubts.
I thought when I was a kid that I would be more confident when in high school.
In high school I thought it would happen when I was adult.
Today am still waiting...

[Cristal Lilly]

Originally Posted by striving4peace

But I want to ensure that if that opening did come along where I would have to seem attractive to a person I believe I could connect with - I don't want to fall short and slip into the 'friend' zone.
I feel though, that I could reach that level of confidence if I were to overcome the remenants of the bad body image I still carry - either by reaching a desired level of fitness or by learning to completely accept and deal with what I am (the latter obviously being a more permenant and lasting solution, but the former increasing my chances of attraction)

I'm really glad you understood what I was saying, because the trap I was warning you about is extremely sneaky.
and don't worry about explaining to me how honest you are in everything you said. I really believe you. all the things I'm pointing out aren't about you not being honest, they're about what you may have not realised about what's going on in your head.

I'm of the belief that to identify what's holding you back is a major key in overcoming it. you can't climb a mountain if you're rowing down the river.

now to continue with what I see in your reply to mine.. I see you don't want to mess up an opportunity when it does present itself. I completely relate. you seem to be ok with waiting, as long as you somehow make sure that when it comes, you'll be ready. this might be a bit problematic. you want to know how to be sensual with women, but there are no actual women you want to be sensual with, but still when the right woman comes you'd like to have it all perfectly down straight away.

see that little predicament?

next, you identified confidence as the key factor that makes you sensual to this woman because women in general are attracted to confidence. I would like you to focus on only that woman once you finally meet her and throw other women's expectations out the window. as just one woman, it's my honest opinion that this is the best approach. but that's all irrelevant here for this particular problem of naggin self doubts.

for this problem, first off you have to fix that paradox I wrote you about in my first post. when you want a thing like confidence, it has to be for you and for you alone.

secondly, you think you can get more confidence by getting over the remnants of your bad self image. I get all happy over that, because I agree with you there, but then I see you writing that to get over a bad self image you have to either 'fix' your body or accept it as is. now this again just won't work.
first off, to have confidence, you have to accept yourself in each moment. accepting does not by any means mean giving up on oneself. in fact,the opposite. it gives you the perfect starting point because you can look at your body without fear or pain or loathing and see for the first time objectively what it is you'd like to improve.

and secondly, more importantly, and I speak from personal experience here, no amount of 'fixing' your body gives you confidence. maybe a little boost to fool you so you wouldn't actually get rid of your poor self image, but not the real deal.
I'll give you my example. in very short version, I grew up with a dreadful self image which was so bad that certain people had me honestly convinced I am hideous and have some sort of physical deformity. I was constantly working on my body (through what survival requested, I managed to pull out of a helluva lot of violence, and through what I did for the purpose of being prettier because I was trying to buy love with that). I got to the point of where I realised I wasn't actually deformed at all. this was a huge shock for me, but I actually have no deformities whatsoever. from that point on, when I finally managed to realise I looked somewhat normal, I decided to go on a diet and work on myself more so I could become a bit more confident.

I remember waiting for a bus and thinking to myself how I wish I could finally fix my body so I can finally be comfortable with myself, 'I don't have to look great or anything, I just want to be normal'. at that bus stop a modeling agent approached me. he was apparently from one of the bigger agencies around these parts. to cut the story short, I checked everyone involved and it was all legit. a big agency seriously was offering me a nice contract to be their model, even though I'm as tall as kylie minogue. (I refused, I'm the academic type)

moral of the story: your body has nothing to do with your self image when you lack confidence, and bad self image can't be fixed by making yourself look better.

so basically, by all means, pursue confidence. but pursue it for yourself alone and on the account of that you deserve to have it. not that you need it for anything else.
and by all means, work out and do nice things for your body, but do it to be healthy and feel better (as in have more energy and sleep better and all that).

and most of all, don't give anyone the power to disapprove you or not. not your friends, not your culture, not your parents, not women, not me, not anyone. you are you, beautiful and perfect human being, and deserving to be confident no matter how you look and how many people you slept with.
anyone trying to tell you otherwise.. that's THEIR issue.

[striving4peace]

Yes, I see the predicament
And it's ironic that a friend once told me that she didn't think I had the confidence - and asked me to prove it by trying to be sensual with and pick someone up in a bar. I told her that it's her misconception that I don't have that level of confidence - and that I could come up with a lot of other past incidents and tests to benchmark my confidence level. But yes, sometimes I do wonder if I'll be able to get it perfectly down straight away because translating confidence to sensuality is different from translating it to say - public speaking or martial arts fighting.

I agree that instead of subjecting myself to what I believe the expectations and opinions of women in general, I should focus on what it takes to attract that one woman.

Yes, I would like to be confident - not just for attracting women, but to do better at life and be at ease. I like to think I generally am confident - but there's room for improvement.

I think your approach is a lot like the teachings in Eckhart Tolle's power of Now or Zen buddhism - about being myself - and not basing self worth on anything like body image, past, future - which I think is possibly the best way to go and am exploring those paths too.

Confidence is 'belief in ones self or ability'. Do I believe that my body and appearance can attract that girl I visualize? Actually that question itself is wrong, irrelevant and I need to stop thinking in that direction. It is predicated on the premise that body and appearance is the sole pre-requisite (which I fail) to attract girls and is the limiting belief I have grown up with and need to discard. The paradigm I'm trying to shift to is 'I will attract her because I am confident, not solely based on my body and appearance' and finally to 'I will attract her because I CAN'. So technically I shouldn't even be going by the expectations and opinions of the girl in question too much - those can be changed or bypassed with exceptions.

I'll continue to work on my own body but just for the sake of being be happy with it. Looking fit - regardless of who's seeing me fit - is it's own reward. Looking aesthetically pleasing to me would be like a work of art that I would have put a lot of effort into and can be proud of.

Thank you

[Daphne Lim]

striving4peace,

Wow, I must say I appreciate your honesty in sharing your feelings. It looks like you've got your thoughts under control and that's such a crucial step in creating the life you want.

I've come to realise that it's easier to be happy in a relationship when you're perfectly happy being single. So it does boil down to being comfortable with yourself, and loving yourself and life whether or not there's someone else.

It's funny that once I reached the point where I accepted myself and was happy being single, I met the most wonderful person and now I'm equally happy with him.

So you're on the right track. Live life for yourself, be your own person, and when a woman comes along, you'll have more to bring into the relationship.

All the best.

[striving4peace]

Thank you for appreciating that honesty in me. I do it in earnest that the truth shall set me free

I'm so happy for you that you found someone wonderful and are equally happy with him. You both are truly lucky and blessed - but I guess all of us already are.

I am normally happy with my life. I attribute a huge chunk of that to what i've been lucky and blessed with: great friends (especially a few close ones who mean the world to me), great parents who always do thier best, a few talents and the oppurtunity to use em.

Its only once in a while that my old psychological programming (put in thru childhood and early adulthood) kicks in and makes me suffer. But I am trying to improve. Changing my own thinking and disposition through logical and spiritual means, especially on my own - is tough. But I think I see progress...It's only sometimes that I do need feedback and I try and not let it go to the extent of being needy and needing assurance. Which is why I thank you too, for the help and attention you've given.

[Daphne Lim]

Originally Posted by striving4peace

I try and not let it go to the extent of being needy and needing assurance. Which is why I thank you too, for the help and attention you've given.

You're very welcome. I'm quite needy of assurance too, and have had to constantly remind myself to get over it, to know that just because someone isn't paying attention to me doesn't mean he doesn't care. It could be because he's busy, tired, distracted, or a myriad other reasons. We tend to read too much into silences sometimes.

Same for your life, striving4peace. We tend to see periods of singlehood as deserts, as lacking in some way, when sometimes these silences and absences are exactly what we need to grow. Many flowers bloom not when the plant is constantly watered, but when there's a dry spell. You never know, if you're going through a dry spell now, your life may be about to bloom sooner than you realise!

[striving4peace]

Thanks Daphne.
The term you used - bloom - actually brings up another question I'd been pondering on. I suppose one of my main problems was the perception that being single was a failure on my part - a massive mistake or stupidity - which I just couldn't put my finger on. Because most personal development books (including ones using LoA) talk like that: that everything in my life I am responsible for.
Yes, I am responsible for being single because I rejected the chances I had of what I believed to be only mediocre relationships instead of the one I wanted. But here's the real question : "do relationships happen or do you make it happen?"
If the answer is "a combination of both where your part is that you have to be open to chances" then I have done ok. If it is "you have to go out there, find someone, pursue them and court them" like many guys might say then, yes I have not done enough. I would stop after the third or fourth rejection (from the any girl) and been picky with who I'd ask.
So basically I'm asking - do relationships bloom like flowers beyond our control, part of nature - or do you also have to cross pollinate, water the plant, provide it adequate sunlight and fertilizers so that it blooms. Darn, I think I already answered my own question.
I just have to believe I'm being a good enough gardner in my own life.